Laird Hamilton: The Mindset That Changed Surfing Forever | Sean Callagy

23:26Laird Hamilton:Competition based. It's because it was more tangible. So they had surf competitions and they, you know, it's like gymnastics. You know, you, you bring the American gymnast to Russia and you're confused why they're losing because you have Russian judges and so I mean I went I experienced that and and the industry was really built around that because it was more it's framework we can have it on Sunday at one o 'clock at down here at Jersey Beach and so everybody shows up but big waves you have to be you have to wait and could be months it means they come during a certain period but I always felt because as a young man surfing was evolving and the competition aspect was growing and so there was two groups there was like what we call free surfing which were the people that were just surfing and then there was like the competition and so I watched that and I was like I felt like if if I can surf the biggest waves in the world the best then it I don't care what you're doing that I don't it doesn't matter to me like I don't care if you're the world champ that doesn't mean anything to me because I feel like if you surf the biggest, the best, then that would, in my, in my thinking would mean you're the best, like, like, like you'd be the best at that point, because that's the pinnacle.

24:43Laird Hamilton:Right. And so just because of the danger and the, and the skill and all the, and the, just everything about it that it takes to do it. Uh, okay.

24:52Sean Callagy:So at what age did that come into your mind for the first time that I'm going to surf bigger waves and bigger waves and even bigger waves and bigger than that waves? Like what was, how old were you and what was some of the stages of that?

25:11Laird Hamilton:Well, the first, you know, I always talk about tribal test, you know, like when do you put a male into some tribal test as a, as a, you know, as into manhood and puberty or whatever like you get 13 14 you start getting stronger you're like hey i'm gonna go out and and push myself uh into bigger surf i was younger you're just not physically strong enough to really be able to deal with it and and then you're competing with men at that point and so it started then i think i i was always attracted to it and i was building up as i went it wasn't just a leap of i surfed small waves and then i surfed giant waves and then but it was but i did have the opportunity when I was very young that there were a few, a few men, um, that would just, they wouldn't, you wouldn't even see them unless the surf was, was giant, which when I say giant, I mean like, okay, 50 foot faces, right?

26:04Laird Hamilton:You, so you wouldn't see these guys and all of a sudden they'd come out and then everybody else that was surfing all the time that was, they were considered the best surfers. Well, they were nowhere to be found. Uh, and so I was like, that's the group I'm going to emulate. That's the, those are the guys that I, that I'm like, that's those are the guys for me and so I had that early I had that as a young and I I think I was pretty obnoxious as a young man because probably because I was scared and uh which you know usually usually when you're scared you're obnoxious but uh so so I was obnoxious and I'm going to be the best and blah blah blah I was pretty mouthy and the adults would always say hey Laird just shut up um be quiet stop it and uh do you think do you think that I like him even

26:47Sean Callagy:worn out.

26:49Laird Hamilton:So, so, so, so then, so then, so then it starts at that age and then I start pushing it, right. I'm getting bigger, stronger, better at doing it. And I'm getting myself to a point where I start getting to the ceiling, right. I get to the ceiling. I'm in my early twenties. Um, and I'm, you know, like in most sports, you know, you're in your early twenties and you're, you're, uh, you know, you're at the, I'm at the level, I'm at the top of performance and in my in my genre and big wave riding and so i'm i'm just i'm pushing that and then uh and then there gets a point where there's a ceiling right there's a ceiling where where the waves on certain days are too big uh or too stormy to for us to go and and and ride them and and i'm not satisfied with that and so and at the same time we're we're we're doing a bunch of other disciplines we're windsurfing we're doing all this crazy crazy stuff and getting on we're going out at to sea on windsurfers and getting on giant swells and so i kind of have an epiphany like there's another way uh and and i've had a few of these uh over the over the years and i have a epiphany that i'm going to be able to that we we develop a technique to be towed on and and And so we implement that right away.

28:12Sean Callagy:So did he say this before?

28:14Laird Hamilton:You said we. Yeah. So before. The friends that I could suck out with me, usually I could probably convince somebody. I mean, normally parents would always say, you can't play with Laird. Because you're not allowed to play with Laird because they usually come home with stitches or something would happen. Because it would be like, hey, Laird said to, and then they'd be hurt. So parents are like, hey, you can't play with Laird. It was always like, I think for a parent, it was like high anxiety if your child was with Laird because somewhere in there, something, it's either a bike off a giant, just something bad.

28:49Laird Hamilton:It's always bad.

28:50Sean Callagy:But here's the fun part, right? And this is what being a G-Hick, we call it growth-driven, heart-centered, integrous, committed to mastery is about. I seek this out because I am that person with all the people I know is the person that's like don't go to the water with Sean don't go on the ski mat with Sean but then what I find is where I can go back to being the gecko to Godzilla and that's what you're all doing here and it's so exciting I love meeting people who are exponentially better than me at things I love. So this is like complete insanity for me today. And again, thank you so much because I'm that guy that it's like, well, be careful.

29:44Sean Callagy:Don't hang out with that guy. If you heard from people at some point, don't go listen to Sean. Don't go hang out with Sean and say yes. Right. So thank you. And it makes me even want to be more like that now because I have a large gap to close because I'm a gecko and that's Godzilla.

29:58Laird Hamilton:so there's always a godzilla and we're always a gecko so that's important too

30:03Sean Callagy:thank you and so so as you are in a so was it had anybody to your knowledge um been going into waves toe surfing um on a jet ski or was like your crew with a first was a couple of other pods like how did how did when did that happen and like what's that backstory well

30:31Laird Hamilton:I mean it started before jet skis so there wasn't even jet skis and I had I had one of my first jobs was driving like those zodiacs that the navy seals have and I grew up driving those in kind of in and out of the surf and through waves so I knew how to drive and I had another friend that had the same experience so we started with with inflatables originally uh and it happened the original thing happened in the summer. The surf was small. We were just playing around. I always say great ideas come out of boredom.

31:01Sean Callagy:So do you like, do you relate to yourself? And I, and he's very humble. So I think he has like these questions, but I I'm just fascinated as the inventor of toe surfing. Yes. Let's hear for that. Yes. Yes. That is amazing. And I, and I related to you that way, but sometimes you know people can be falsely modest yeah no yeah yeah like that that's that is unbelievable yes thank you that is seriously unbelievable and that i can take credit for a

31:33Laird Hamilton:couple other things if you want yeah no seriously you want me to yes stand-up paddling please no

31:39Sean Callagy:stand-up paddling what about stand-up paddling i'm the first guy to do stand-up paddling let's

31:43Laird Hamilton:hear it for that i did i did i did i did stand-up paddling for eight years before anybody ever did it and I never seen it done before and I and I saw somebody in the Middle East with a turban on paddling and I went wow it came all the way from my my driveway all the way to the Middle

32:02Sean Callagy:East that's unbelievable if you knew that about Laird Hamilton before today say yes I didn't I

32:10Laird Hamilton:didn't know that that's crazy and I and I if you want to if you want to go to another one I could state credit for foiling too.

32:17Sean Callagy:Wow. We were the first one to foil. Yeah. So I took Fernando to Toronto beach. Um, and the, and in Puerto Rico, Oh, he came and he started foiling. So I was step off surfing and Fernando was foiling. Yeah. So I haven't foiled. He has. So, uh, Laird is convinced that foiling is my future, Fernando. Yes. Absolutely.

32:45Laird Hamilton:Yeah. Absolutely. So in a way, you know, you got foiling stand up. I mean, I was involved on the early stages of kiting. I wouldn't say because I wasn't the first one to do kiting, but we were involved in that. So I've been involved kind of in that process. And I do believe there's a formula for that kind of system.

33:07Sean Callagy:A what?

33:09Laird Hamilton:what yeah so there's there's a formula of for creativity right there's a certain thing first you have to have the idea right and but to truly have the idea you have to the idea that you have you have to be able to see what the idea will actually result in you have to see the end first you have to see if i do this and this happens i can do that like because you don't because an idea without a destination is is a is a is a misled idea so i think seeing seeing the picture having the light go off and go hey listen if i get pulled on i can let go and ride this giant wave then you implement it but you have to see the end the end thing and then you have to go through the arduous process of not being discouraged right by the failure because you're going to build prototypes they're not going to work you're gonna build another prototype might take six months breaks doesn't work one works doesn't work that well like you just have all this people will discourage you you know there was a great uh woman entrepreneur i heard that she's um they asked her well what would you do if you had a really good idea and she goes well i just wouldn't tell anybody for a year and i'm like and we asked why and she goes well because they'll discourage you and so you realize that people love to discourage you because they don't take advantage of their ideas so they have ideas and they're they're when you have one and you're pursuing it they don't want to they don't they're not pursuing theirs so then what's their excuse so they're like hey don't pursue yours too and that'll make me feel better so it's a it's a weird little mental game that people play so but i'm fortunate in that i'm undiscourageable like you can't like i don't care i mean i've had people tell me how it sucked and it wasn't real i mean and the truth is that toe-in was really not respected people were were kind of slandering it for a good solid eight to ten years and it wasn't until we rode a wave, that wave in Tahiti.

35:01Laird Hamilton:That's why it was monumental, that it really gained the respect that it deserved because we were saying, hey, we're doing some miraculous stuff, and they just kind of kept pushing it off. Like, that's not surfing. You're not paddling, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we're like, hey, we're performing and riding on bigger waves than have ever been ridden. Is that not good enough for you? And you still have the consequences. You still have to ride the wave. You have the consequences of crashing on the wave. You know, you still have all the things, right? And it's even worse now. But bigger consequences.

35:30Laird Hamilton:So I think that was a big piece of it.

35:33Sean Callagy:Team, do we have that picture? The picture, not the video of Laird. Yes, no?

35:45Yeah.

35:46Sean Callagy:Make the sound of that. Yeah. And is that the Tahiti? Yeah. Yeah. So because I have the words I would say, but I want to be really precise. How have people described that ride?

36:05Laird Hamilton:Well, that was on the cover of Surfer Magazine and the caption was, holy shit.

36:13Laird Hamilton:So, I mean, you know, I cried after that session. I had tears in my eyes just because it had been, And that was when I was 35. Wow. So that came along. That came along. No, it's here for that.

36:32Sean Callagy:And didn't people say certain things like, and I know that, again, Laird thinks people are imprecise and saying accurate things. But weren't there versions of that that was the hardest? Unrideable. Unrideable. Yeah. Unrideable.

36:49Laird Hamilton:Unrideable. what because it was unrideable that way was unrideable for you yes before you yes yes and then i mean i describe it a little bit like the four minute mile after that once they understood what was possible it changed the whole thinking it's like if you know about the four minute mile how the first guy that broke it once he broke it then the next year 27 people break it because it becomes in our consciousness but it's just breaking you know my friend has a saying someone someone must go first to lead the way right and so there's and so there is something to that once you see what's possible then you break that barrier of impossibility because it's what do they say it's all mental right all is mental so we create these barriers that we can't get past so you can't do that that can't happen and and i think that uh once you see it happen then you go oh no that can't happen and then that changes the mentality yeah and so i was chatting with laird

37:45Sean Callagy:this morning, which was just such a gift. And I was discussing my journey in surfing. And can I ask an honest question? How, when you heard, because Laird had no idea who I was, right? When you heard like blind surf water and he does not falsely compliment, nor am I looking for a false compliment at all zero i'm just really curious like i'm relating to him now as like coach um what were you thinking i might look at i think we didn't see uh board surfing we did some body surfing today how what were you thinking i might look like in the water once we're going in versus what it was for my coaching um you know from today's experience well i mean the first thing

38:36Laird Hamilton:I was thinking is uh what it's like to be blind so I was like did you see and you know what things look like or do you never see and not know what they look like and then just the dynamics of surfing and that can you feel are you feeling it uh because you can feel it for sure you know surfing has a unique thing that you can sense what's happening you know when it's going to break on top of your head you just do you I don't care if your eyes are closed you can't see or not You just know this thing's going to break on top of my head right now. And so I just ran through all those those thoughts in my head.

39:13Laird Hamilton:And and and so it's I mean, it's amazing. You're amazing. Congratulations for your and, you know, it's a burden and a blessing, as they say. Yeah, I think all of it is.

39:28Sean Callagy:So we also discussed the possibility because I got at one point in time when I. first heard of Laird Hamilton and I'd heard of him before this but I really had a deeper understanding from this incredible book that was written called The Wave which was about waves but very much focused on Laird Hamilton other outlying stories but he's the core of the book it's incredible and I was like wow that really stinks that I'm blind and it really stinks that I didn't surf earlier in life. I'll never be able to do something like that. And something I, I've remembered as I was in the shower, getting ready to come here.

40:10Sean Callagy:Um, when I was going through, I was divorced twice. Um, and in my second divorce, I remember thinking like, sometimes you go through a moment, like you want to do something like I'm going to surf an effing big wave. Like I'm going to do that, right? And this was back 10 years ago. And shortly thereafter, I'm like, I'm blind. Like, I basically just started surfing, sort of, right? There's no way that's ever going to happen. And a short time ago, I read about this person who had surfed a giant wave who was blind. and Laird's like oh yeah that's blah blah blah I trained him so um and now I'm I and I asked Laird you know I I see him as a very authentic person um hey what are your thoughts he's like uh my thoughts are that incrementally we have exactly what you would need to do that so I am saying to the unblinded ecosystem to, you know, and here at Group Influence LBI and the podcast that I am 100 % committing to take that to the highest level and see if I could get up on a giant wave.

41:34Sean Callagy:And I'm going to pursue that through the ecosystem of Laird Hamilton. So, and I'm very, very grateful for that. And so that's my half. well so my mom used to say you know the way god punishes you is he give you what you ask for

41:54Laird Hamilton:so we can definitely accommodate you okay and we'll bring you back in one piece thank you okay

42:00Sean Callagy:so so do you think we have a shot what what what is your perspective and can i ask this what we talked about in the house yep and then we went in the ocean yep uh did my stock fall rise or stay the same on the possibility of that accomplishment.

42:16Laird Hamilton:Oh no, you're we can give you what you want. No problem. Wow.

42:24Sean Callagy:You can

42:25Laird Hamilton:we can guide you into you know a large enough wave that you'll be more than satisfied.

42:39Sean Callagy:No maniacal cackling, Bella. Are we going to put Bell on a giant wave too?

42:51Not.

42:55Laird Hamilton:Well, I'll tell you a story. So at one point we weren't, in the beginning we didn't wear flotation devices. Now all big wave riding, everybody's wearing flotation, right? And that was a really big breakthrough. In the beginning we'd never, we thought it was a liability to have flotation. and I have a friend who's surfing with us and his wife said, hey, you have to wear a flotation. And we were like, oh man, you gotta wear a flotation. He goes, yeah, well, she said she can't collect a life insurance unless she has the body. And she was dead serious. And by the way, so we took him, he surfed and he popped right up and we were like, amazing.

43:36Laird Hamilton:So then after that, we started implementing flotation And now flotation is prevalent and all that. I mean, now they have pole cords to create air and they're wearing flotation. So which is which has, you know, some of these things in create in, you know, they induce greater courage, you know, like it makes people feel a little more invincible. But but you'll definitely have flotation. That's just to be clear.

44:02Sean Callagy:All right. Perfect. So what what's the longest you've ever been held down under a wave?

44:08Laird Hamilton:I mean, normally when the surf's big, if you're held down two waves, that's a problem, right? So I've been held down two waves one time, and it was foiling. And in the early days of foiling, we were riding foiling in Giant Surf, and we were booted to the board. So we were connected to the board, and the stuff, it was all metal. They were pretty heavy, and so I got held down for two waves. but you know that's not i mean the closest i've had a lot of situations in my life you know like like i've been lost at sea i got held under a waterfall one time on a rock on the bottom of a giant waterfall and uh and held down for a long time um so there's been a lot there's a long it's you know and now you understand kind of how my mother felt right so you're like so i have had many you know many situations where i shouldn't be here um how long do you think you were under the water and that yeah you know i i mean seconds seem like minutes you know and minutes seems like hours i mean i i probably wasn't under the water more than you know a minute and something maybe or something because if you have but the thing is is when you have an elevated heart rate it's a whole nother animal you know and most of the training that we do is is is based on elevated heart rate so i told somebody goes oh i can hold my breath for five minutes and i go okay so what we're going to do is i'm going to get this dog right here to chase you and you're going to run down that block and when you finally get to the end then you're going to hold your breath and And let's see how long you can hold your breath.

45:53Laird Hamilton:And, and you know what? 20 seconds might as well be five minutes. So when you have a hell of, so we're dealing mostly with that. I think more importantly than holding your breath well is our ability to get to the surface. Right. And also be calm in the turbulence. Like when it has, you don't fight against it. And that's, I think those are the skills that you develop growing up, you know, playing in the shore break, you know, you have the wave. It's got you, you don't, you don't, you don't fight the wave when it has you. I told somebody it's like wrestling a giant guy. If you have a guy that has you pinned, that's not the time.

46:25Laird Hamilton:But when you feel him let up, then you make a move. And so the ocean's the same way. When it has you pinned, you don't resist because you're just going to use air up. And so I think we pride ourselves more on that skill about, you know, our eyes are always closed underwater. We never open our eyes. So we're blind. We feel where the surface is. We know, you know, you know how to, you know how to, when the wave has you, you know how to relax. then you know how to win it and make a move. And you try always to get up before the next wave lands on you. And like I said, in my, in my life, I've only had one two wave hold down.

47:00Laird Hamilton:I mean, and, but I'm saying when the surf's big, you have a giant interval. Like today I could dive under and you could probably have 10 waves go by. And, but the waves are very close together as the waves get bigger and bigger, they get further apart. So if you're doing a two wave hold down, you're going to be down for more than a minute. And with an elevated heart rate, that's a problem. like that's that's where people are drowning like you're you're you're drowning if you're not caught on a coral head with your leash or i mean just the you know hit by the hit the bottom i mean there's you know just choose the ways there's a lot of you know the week the the month before i rode that wave in tahiti a guy hit the reef and and and uh tore half his head off and then eventually died in the hospital but the i mean so it's like okay impact hit by the equipment held underwater I mean, you know, there's a lot of, you know, it's like choose the ways you want to get it.

47:53Laird Hamilton:There's plenty.

47:55Sean Callagy:Team, do we have a video of Laird ready? Okay, let's hit it.

48:01Laird Hamilton:I'm not even seeing it.

48:07Sean Callagy:Ag, give me some audio description of what we're seeing.

48:16Laird Hamilton:Oh, is this? This might.

48:21Laird Hamilton:Oh, this is. You know what this is? This is Point Break 2. I get blown into the sky. This is a bad wipeout. Yeah, I get. See how I get shot into the air? Yeah, I got hurt on that. Yeah. Wow. They were filming Point Break. I don't know if anybody's seen Point Break.

48:44Sean Callagy:Via Conde. If you see Point Break, give it up.

48:46Laird Hamilton:Yeah. So they were filming Point Break, and the scene that they're doing, and I'm not even in it. I'm just surfing. And so I did the death scene accidentally, so I didn't die. But this is where the guy goes out to go die, right? He goes out to ride the big wave and die.

49:03Sean Callagy:At the end of Point Break, when Patrick Swayze gets let go, it's Via Conde and paddles out.

49:07Laird Hamilton:This is what this is? This is the new Point Break, that version in the new one at Jaws. because the first one was at Waimea Bay. It was Derek Doner, a friend of mine, that did that original crash. That wave is more than double the height of the one that Patrick Swayze supposedly dies on. I got pounded pretty bad on that wave right there. I deserved it. I was misbehaving. I did. That was true. I was being a punk.

49:39Sean Callagy:Adam, what did you say? What do you got, AJ? Tell me.

49:46Laird Hamilton:This is to you. At one point, I'm on the wave, and I'm having a little talk between the halo and the horns, and it's, hey, you should jump off. Well, if I jump off, I won't make it. But you better jump off, and don't jump off, and back and forth. And finally, I thought, well, if I jump off, I'm not going to make it. So I'm just going to try to stay on. And if I get knocked off, well, nothing I can do about that.

50:14Sean Callagy:Make the noise of what you're feeling.

50:28Wow.

50:29Sean Callagy:Let's hear it for that. Thank you. So, all right. So I'm listening, right? I say read the audio book, listening to the book, The Wave. and the two things that I've ever, I'll go three, that I've ever experienced that I thought were the craziest are as follows. In no particular order, I'll go A, was David Goggins running an ultra marathon on no training and having no idea of how to hydrate. So he's drinking protein drinks. And at the end of it, after a 100-mile race, he was like basically bile was coming out of him and he was on the verge of death. Like that's a one. Another was the guy that recently climbed the building on New Year's.

51:31Sean Callagy:Alex, yeah. Yeah, Alex, and made it to the top. Like, I'll go, that's another. And then this with Laird Hamilton in the book The Wave. So I'm loving the book. It's unbelievable. And I'm going to let Laird fill in blanks. But they're in Hawaii. It's not normally a place that has huge waves. and this day they hear it's going to be good or they think it might be good, they go out and it just starts getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and I think some version of it might have been as big as anything that Laird had ever seen so they go out and one of his team I think his name is Brett Lickle they're taking turns and they're in these absolutely enormous waves and they at some point get thrown off the ski and they had very, very sharp fins to surf these incredibly giant waves and this John Brett Lickle gets cut from the back of his knee all the way down to his foot and he is down to the bone and he's bleeding to death in the ocean and they're, I don't know, half a mile, mile plus offshore.

52:59Sean Callagy:And Larry, again, tighten up my, you know, misstatements. And the gentleman, Brett, says, like, tourniquet, like he needs it. So Larry gets, like, naked in the ocean and, like, takes off his clothes and makes a tourniquet. And then, but they're half a mile, mile out in the ocean. and the ski is like half a mile away in these gigantic, unbelievable waves. And this friend, team member, is bleeding to death. And this is also an area where there's some frequent visitor, like 15-foot tiger shark. So the guy Brett, as he's telling his version of the story, is thinking like the big guy, that's the 15-foot tiger shark, is going to eat him.

53:49Sean Callagy:So Larry goes swimming off against the current to the jet ski that's half a mile away against the current with his friend's life at stake. He gets there, and the way you turn the jet ski on is with his friend. so he has to like James Bond meets MacGyver go into the jet ski wave runner and like hotwire it to turn it on which he does like he knows how to do that and like like like yeah basically hijacks the system and gets this thing going turns around gets the the friend ride back in the shore, emergency vehicles, people are freaking out on the shore, the whole deal. And his friend goes off to the hospital, you know, in a very life-threatening situation.

54:45Sean Callagy:And the other, oh, I'm sorry. And I missed the fact before he goes, swims off a half a mile in the fall, Laird got a giant like baseball size hematoma on his leg. So his leg was massively swollen compared to his other leg. And he sustained, you know, a real injury, right? himself so they're on the beach you know their colleagues are like oh my god this is the craziest thing and as the author writes it said lair's eyes are like double size and he's like some version of we're going back out and they're like that's crazy like we're going back out right and off he goes back out and ends up surfing on these giant ridiculous waves like insanity so how accurate not accurate what am i misstating and please now well i will say brad wasn't riding any waves

55:41Laird Hamilton:i was the guinea pig no uh no accurate accurate the uh i mean first of all that that day It was, you know, unforecasted and it was, it was, I mean, I told somebody a story. I go, like, if you, if Tyrannosaurus Rex was running down the road, right, and something happened, I mean, this might be the only time you see him. Like, you might never see him again. And so, in a way, those waves represented that. once Brett was in the ambulance, and I was naked when I crash-landed on the shore, and there was a giant parking lot full of people, and I did like a cartwheel off the front of the ski onto the beach, like laying in front of everybody naked, and then some local guy ran up with some shorts and threw them to me.

56:37Laird Hamilton:And, you know, I mean, and I had a radio. I was calling the ambulance. I mean, there was a lot of details, and I told somebody, I go, listen, if you were naked and you were swimming a mile offshore or in an area that you knew that there were some big sharks, you'd be an incredible swimmer. Your swimming would be, you would be, you would be an Olympian, you know? So I was, I was Olympic. I was like, I'm Olympic. I'm getting to the machine. Uh, you know, they're just all the things that led up to that. Uh, you know, and then of course, Brett, my, my concern was to get Brett. And once Brett was in the ambulance, then I knew, okay, he's in the ambulance.

57:15Laird Hamilton:You know, he can be he's good and then and then I'm like back to the back to Tyrannosaurus he's there and I got to go out there because I don't know when it's gonna I mean and I've never seen another day like that and never saw a day like that before and so in a way I didn't want to let that opportunity go by I think that I would have regretted that the rest of my life and I don't and it actually helped uh transition me into foiling because I I rode I mean part of the reason why Brett and I got run over was because I couldn't descend down the wave. So I, he told me on to, I mean, if you want feet, we, there were, it was 80 to a hundred feet.

57:56Laird Hamilton:I know it was, if it was an inch, just because we counted how long the waves would take the waves were taking four to five seconds for the lip to fall. So it was one, 1 ,002, 1 ,003, 1 ,004, 1 ,005 before they hit, we were counting the, uh, we were counting how long it was taking the lips to fall and and uh and so i wasn't able to descend

58:18Sean Callagy:and i had to kind of dive okay can i just look so what what laird is saying is these were 80 to 100 foot face waves and they were so powerful so massive that you couldn't surf down them because the speed and water yeah yeah the the surface tension the friction of the board the

58:45Laird Hamilton:you know it's like if you took a wide board and you towed it really fast behind a boat it would hit a certain speed where it just would it wouldn't go and it would get stuck and so that's what we experienced which which is the is actually what led us into the pursuit of foiling that we, that I knew that there was like what towing was for paddling. Foiling is for towing. So we hit the cap. I'm sorry. I'm just going to make sure that lands. Do you guys get that? So we hit a cap. We hit a, we hit a ceiling. First, we hit a ceiling in paddling that we created towing. Then we hit a ceiling in towing.

59:23Laird Hamilton:Then we created foiling. So foiling really came out of the desire for the continued pursuit of trying to ride the biggest waves. And then at that point, I kind of put my toe boards away and focused all my attention into foiling because I knew that if it is actually 100 feet or bigger, that you won't be able to ride a conventional surfboard. It won't work. And so that's where the energy and the focus came from to pursue foiling.

59:53Sean Callagy:If you think that Laird is up to the most extreme things physically you've ever heard of, say yes.

1:00:04Laird Hamilton:Small brain.

1:00:07Sean Callagy:And I have like a thousand questions. I know we're getting towards the end. Can you share what you said in the house about surfers and their connectivity versus national origin? I love that. That was amazing.

1:00:25Laird Hamilton:Yeah, well, we were talking about, we just learned recently that the surfers microbiome actually are very closely tied to water mammals and that surfers from different places in the world are more similar than the people are from their own culture. so my microbiome is more connected to a japanese surfers microbiome and an african surfers microbiome and a french and then then they are to their own culture and so it's it's the oceans our relationship with the water that affects our microbiome and uh and gives us that kind of that that connection and it may contribute to our kind of psychotic pursuit kind of like people do for candy bars, you know?

1:01:16Laird Hamilton:I love it. And amongst other things, I mean, we get so many, we absorb so many things through the ocean. We have, you know.

1:01:25Sean Callagy:Yeah, that reference was when Bella was swimming out to paddling at, right, Bella, is that what we're talking about? To the sandbar that first time. It's like, no, I'm fine. No, I'm fine. I was there, and I think she was in pursuit of something perhaps that was related to the water, but not the water itself. Yes. So thank you very much.

1:01:48Laird Hamilton:Gabby had that same problem. Yes. Yeah.

1:01:51Sean Callagy:That is super fun. So now, yes, she did. Yes, she did. So the, and this I just find so utterly fascinating, and we're certainly not asking Laird where for the conversation. And he's like, yeah, you know, with this group and we're going to secret places that nobody knows about. Exploring and experimenting, doing things like nobody's ever done now. Like that's what's happening. So, of course, I'm not asking you to breach any of your confidential, you know, amazing. If I told you, I'd have to kill you. Exactly. I prefer not that. but what can you tell us about it? Not where, but what? Like what's the, what's going on?

1:02:40Sean Callagy:I mean, like if you want to say an aspiration

1:02:42Laird Hamilton:that I'd easily share, which is, and who knows if it'll come to fruition, but it's a pursuit. It's, there's a, there's a, I'm blanking right now, but it's on the bottom of South America on the tip of Cape Horn. The Drake's Passage, there's a famous passage called Drake's Passage. and it's it's where a lot of ships sink um and there's an open ocean current that comes into giant surf that makes you know waves 80 to 100 feet break at sea which is a whole nother animal there's a legit a logistics issue it's because you have to go in be able to go far enough out not lose your guy have the resources to be able to do it and i mean for me i feel like that's a frontier like another wave at another big wave spot for me this does has no interest but if you said that you know we could go to the north sea or drake's passage or someplace in the open ocean and we're working our way towards that that would be like that would be the pinnacle of it i'm not really worried about anybody knowing because if they can figure out how to do it then i'll go with them but um you know it's so but that's that's a that's a i mean that's a and and and even if i'm I personally don't care what aspect I do, whether I'm the lead rider or the guy organizing to drive the machines to help the young testosterone-filled maniacs do the thing.

1:04:14Laird Hamilton:Whatever it is, I'm all – but that's a frontier, right? And when you think about the world and where is there, what is there that we haven't done or been in? that's probably one for sure I mean we haven't been in the bottom of the ocean everywhere and we definitely haven't done that we haven't you know been able to go and that's I mean that's something that I that I'm having my um you know that this keeps me uh waking up early and going to bed early and eating good and other than just you know being there for my my princesses

1:04:55Sean Callagy:That is unbelievable. So what's left undone longevity, caring, you have beautiful health programs, you have, you know, your identity, coffee creamers, things like what's the rest of life from here and, you know, for hopefully many, many, many more decades.

1:05:16Laird Hamilton:Well, I mean, I feel like the for me, the most important thing is to stay open and let the next thing come because they seem to if you're if you're not caught up in the past or or being negative and to the point where you're not letting the signal in. I mean, all these things that I've been able to do have have come to me. They've you know, and so I just think that there's more things to come. I don't know exactly what they are yet, but I just know that they've been coming and I don't think they're going to stop coming as long as I'm open to the signal. So I'm just trying to stay open to the to the thing.

1:05:55Laird Hamilton:And I don't know where that that leads me. I mean, I have, of course, you know, I have my girls. I have, you know, I mean, Gabby and I are, you know, newlyweds. and you know and all of those things I mean I feel like life's about learning I just I mean there's no end to the learning you there you really there's no I mean there's no end to the learning so I think just continuing to pursue things I'm interested in and being open for the information trying to be strong enough and healthy enough to be able to endure you know what I want to do because that's the biggest issue is you know okay this that like just the pieces start to need some help.

1:06:37Laird Hamilton:So, you know, keeping that going, keeping the car on the road and then just seeing where the road takes me because so far it's been exciting.

1:06:47Sean Callagy:I'd say so. Are we okay if we took maybe two questions? Absolutely. And in case you're like, why is Sean putting his leg up? I've got a weird leg cramp. So I'm going to walk it off real quick as we do a question.

1:06:58Laird Hamilton:Oh, it's from that shore break holding yourself in the sand. Guaranteed.

1:07:01Sean Callagy:I'll take a water team if you could. I'm going to...

1:07:04Laird Hamilton:Guaranteed it's from gripping the sand And then that current. Yeah. All right. I'll lock up later on when I walk out.

1:07:10Sean Callagy:Who's got a question? Hands?

1:07:19Sean Callagy:It's here for Hallie Gershman. I'm going to walk off for one second. Thank you. Thank you.

1:07:24Laird Hamilton:Very good, Leia. This was an awesome conversation. We've seen lots from Sean and the other people he's interviewed, but this has been far and away unbelievable. Just for some context, you talk about the waves that are 80, 100 feet high. How high is this ceiling? How can we get some scale of what we see? I mean, if I have to guess what that is, I'm saying like 35? 30. Five? Three times as high as this ceiling. It's unbelievable. Right. So picture that. Exactly.

1:07:59Laird Hamilton:This ceiling? Okay. So you just Googled me. I get Googled a lot. So I say something, and they just Google it, and they go, oh, yeah, okay. So 30 to 40. So somewhere maybe double in a third or whatever if it's 40.

1:08:13Sean Callagy:Unbelievable.

1:08:14Laird Hamilton:Definitely large, yeah. This size is fun.

1:08:20Sean Callagy:This size is fun.

1:08:23Laird Hamilton:This is like fun. Unless it's like that wave in Tahiti where it's breaking on a shallow coral reef, then that's a little that's a little more uh dangerous again because the bottom's so sharp so there you know it's all about the bottom it's all about how deep the water is there's there's you know that's why i said when sean asked me about wave height then i said well waves are like dogs i'd rather describe you know there's terriers there's pit bulls there's great danes you have giant kind of kind dogs you have small little vicious ones i mean that's what waves are like like you just think about all the kind of dogs there are that's all the kind of waves there are some are you know got labs and they're just sweet and they're a little bit bigger and they're nice and i mean we have waves just like that and then you have vicious ones that just want to rip your leg off and so those are all so it's more i think it's a better way to look at what a wave is is like waves are like dogs and there's mean ones that are vicious that want to chomp you there's rottweilers and there's every kind of and then there's just you know little poodles and there's this it's just you know that's a better way to kind of get an idea what a wave is awesome let's

1:09:28Sean Callagy:Let's go one more question. Who else has got something? Let's hear it for Nathan Hanson. Hopefully you got the cramp out.

1:09:36Laird Hamilton:Yeah. Oh, guaranteed sure rate. Hey, Laird. Don't make me cry. Give me a guitar.

1:09:50Laird Hamilton:My question is, as you talk about the way you have a plan for taking someone who is an average surfer, like myself or you know average size wave we'll say and you obviously have this peak performance mindset where you can incrementally coach them to do something close to what you do and you experience that um i mean like that's where the thousand questions from eli and i don't know if you could explain like how do you create how do you develop what do you look for like is there an abbreviated way that you decide what you're going to do for Sean Callagy. Like, what does that look like? And how did you develop that framework?

1:10:30Laird Hamilton:Well, I mean, I listen, I tell people surfers are actually wave readers, right? So we're everybody goes, oh, surfing. Oh, yeah. But that's the reward for understanding what a wave is going to do. And so when you understand what the wave is going to do and you know, it's behavior, it's very reliable. It's consistent, much more than the humans. and you can, no, it's true because humans do all kinds of sporadic stuff, but waves are very reliable when you understand them. And so when you, you know, if, if I'm going to take Sean and have him ride a giant wave, well, first I'm going to see how well he can be on a medium wave with minimal consequence.

1:11:07Laird Hamilton:So we're first, we're going to go get on there and be like, Hey, how stable is he? How secure? So if I put him on something that has more consequence and then there's just incremental consequence i can move him in from completely no you can fall down and not even get touched by the way but still be on and ride it then we can be okay fall down and get slightly touched by the wave and you know and then we can put him in a if you fall down you get very touched by the wave so we can just move that and we can stay in the hey he can be on the side ride the ride the side of the wave be on the wave ride the wave and never really be put in a position to get touched by the wave.

1:11:43Laird Hamilton:Like that's how well you can do it if you want to. Now, if you're just a yeehaw, you just put them anywhere and be like, wow, look what happened. That's not what's happening. So we don't operate like that. And I mean, you can play that way if you want to. And people do that. You know, I always say there's three ways people go about doing dangerous stuff. There's denial, ignorance, and skill. Or experience, should I say. So you have denial, ignorance, and experience. There's sometimes a little denial. a little ignorance uh quite a bit of skill sometimes there's a lot of skill some denial very little ignorance it's a combination of those things and so and you know i think you operate within that sometimes there's just pure ignorance and and the guys pull it off and you're like you know that was just plain stupid but but they pull it off and then they think it's because they're so good and then before you know it they're in an even deeper situation because they didn't get the consequence for being ignorant about it so i think there's a there's a there's like a a whole way but definitely incrementally there's ways to do it i mean there's waves that break that go into deep water and dissipate after that don't have any there's there's a you could run away in all directions if you know what way to run uh again and and so there's ways to you know and that's how you that's how you make people experience it that's how you can take someone and get them close to the energy, get them slightly in the energy.

1:13:07Laird Hamilton:And then you can just have them be, you know, if it's somebody puffy whose things are really tough, then I just put them right where all the energy is. How tough are you?

1:13:19Laird Hamilton:You don't need to do anything. You just let the wave do the work.

1:13:22Sean Callagy:I'll take the, I'll take the buildup. Yeah, of course.

1:13:24Laird Hamilton:Well, that's the only way we do it. Yeah. Yeah. There's no, I wouldn't, I would get no joy off of watching you get pounded. that wouldn't I'd be like where is he I got to go get him thank you so thank you yeah it's like I don't need that I'm good I don't need that stuff on me like so I mean I mean for us just because of the way we conduct ourselves when I say us I just talk about like because all of what I mean okay stand up foiling but a lot of what we've done the reason why we've really been able to evolve is because we've worked as a team and normally surfing is very selfish nor normally it's like my wave it's me it's and when we change it into a team dynamic that's what revolutionized because now you have a partner who's towing you on let's hear for that you trust them you you trust them you trust them he and you know like i have somebody that i've been towing with for you know 20 25 years i mean it's we we don't even talk because he just knows he just knows how to cover me i know how to cover him i give him what he wants he gives me what i want because what i want is what he wants and what he wants is what i want and so we have such a chemistry but that's really the breakthrough is when you have that team effort and it's not a selfish thing because what do they say two people working together can do the work of three individuals working separately.

1:14:51Laird Hamilton:It's all about that.

1:14:53Sean Callagy:Let's go. So can you do one more question? One more. We've got one more?

1:15:02Sean Callagy:Please, Mike. It's Mike Adams.

1:15:04Laird Hamilton:I think me and you and I bumped underwater a few times today. I'm like, was that a rock? No, that was Mike. And I've got the scars to prove it. Okay. Here's what my question is, and you've kind of skirted around it, but I also hear that the flotation, but it sounds like that there are a lot of safety innovations above and beyond what you're doing to be able to allow you to do what you do. How much of that have you incorporated into it, and what are you responsible for, and how have you contributed to the safety of surfing overall? Well, I mean, first of all, it happened in conjunction with the lifeguards because the jet ski and now we have the sleds.

1:15:49Laird Hamilton:I mean, that technique really has revolutionized water safety in general. Like now you can go in and do stuff that you'd never be able to do. Nobody swimming, nobody paddling aboard could ever come close to what somebody knows how to do on a ski. And we contributed to a lot of that work just because we were subjected to it by being in Giant Surf. And then the flotation was a big piece of it because we implemented flotation first and then we started building it into the wetsuits. And then now, now, and then it went to airbags. Like at one point I had a, you know what a hippity hop is? Anyway, it's a big ball with a handle that the kids used to jump.

1:16:28Laird Hamilton:So I used to have, I had one of those as a prototype and with a waist belt. And I had a fanny pack and then had a CO2 bottle and you pull this thing and then this hippity hop blows up and you go to the surface. But then you just get battered by this big ball underwater and you float and the ball's in the air and you're underneath the water. So that didn't work out. But now they have it's all built into the suits and you have a handle you can pull, you use CO2 cartridges. And then another piece is just conduct. Like the way we've gone about it and what we've done has trickled into the next generation.

1:17:03Laird Hamilton:Like all these guys have learned a lot from our, you know, like now the jet skis are, you know, 60 miles an hour out of a box. and they used to be, you know, you'd be lucky to get 20 out of them. And so we'd just get mowed in the old days. You're trying to run away and the thing would just run you over. And now it's, so there's a bunch of that stuff that has affected the way, I mean, it has enabled a lot of people to be a lot more reckless. That's the only problem with it. It's kind of allowed like a certain recklessness because they can rely on the buoyancy to bring them up and they're not, the consequences aren't as bad.

1:17:40Laird Hamilton:you seem to be a little more uh when you don't have an eject button you fly better you know you just are you do you just you you're a little more cautious and and and it's hard to you know if you didn't have that foundation it's hard to have that it's hard to implement that into for people but yeah we've been we've been i mean that's directly and indirectly involved with all of that all of those uh innovations in safety that's made it you know better for the good guys and then better for the bad guys. You know, it's like, it's kind of bright light, dark shadow, you know, it's like.

1:18:15Sean Callagy:So Laird, as we, um, draw to a conclusion in our time together, um, I didn't ask this question, you know, before, and I don't know how you relate to a word like legacy, right? Uh, some people are, I don't think about that. And some people are like, Oh, I want my legacy to be. So I'm curious how you relate to the word legacy, what you'd want that to be if you relate to legacy, and or if people think of you now or think of you 200 years from now, what would you hope that what you've done causes them to know and to want to do? Please.

1:19:04Laird Hamilton:Well, I mean, first of all, just be a man, a good man, like honorable, respectable, truthful, you know, good father, good husband, you know, like, and then, okay, innovation. I mean, I have daughters, and they're savages, so there's going to be some humans that I'm related to in the future. If they're anything like my daughters, good luck out there. uh and you know i and i mean i could say you know innovation or or or you know something around that i think i i think of all the things for me i mean okay ride giant waves but i'm in a way that's just one piece of of who i am i think the innovation part is a lot more interesting in in a way that that because that's making a difference for other people like so many people have come to learn you You know, I feel like the more people can participate in the ocean, the more people will care about the ocean.

1:20:07Laird Hamilton:And so if I can create disciplines or help be involved in disciplines to get people participating in the ocean and doing things, then they're going to be more concerned about how it's doing. Like, how is the ocean doing? How do we, you know, just don't dump all your stuff in there. Don't kill everything in there. Like, can we just be a little bit? I think it starts with the humans. You know, I think, you know, if people cared about each other a little bit more, they might care about nature as well. so hard if you don't care about each other why would you care about nature it's like you didn't care about if you don't care about your neighbor so but yes i i think it would first be be what i you know what i respect in a man is is you know is having honor and and and discipline and just those foundational things that make make you uh well and i could just say for a woman it's just make you a good person like let's be let's be you know like how about just was a good person great I'll take that you know like because underneath that's everything everything else and that means generous being generous you know somebody asked me what my favorite human trait was and I and I said well I said love I think is the most important thing but I said generosity for me tells me everything about people because that's going to tell me how you're going to behave in a multitude of situations.

1:21:27Laird Hamilton:If you're a generous person, then you're probably, if you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for them. Yeah. If you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for someone. And I've learned over the years that I have friends that they wouldn't risk for me. And I have other friends that weren't my friends that risked for me and they're my friends. And so it affected my relationships. But I think, you know, being generous, you know, being generous with your ideas, being generous with, you know, with your time, being generous, you know, with your knowledge. I think it's all, I mean, I feel like that really reflects, that just covers so many things.

1:22:11Sean Callagy:Amen. Amen. And Athena, just a quick question. Athena's listening, Nick. Athena what are you thinking are the biggest takeaways from this conversation with Laird Hamilton for this room and feel free to drop in with metaphors analogies contrast to set context you know little fun aspirational goddesses use energy but what would you want to imprint on this live audience and the podcast audience about this conversation with living legend Laird Hamilton. Please, Athena, what do you got?

1:22:55Laird Hamilton:Okay, here is what I want to imprint. Laird Hamilton did not become Laird Hamilton because he was the most talented person in the water. He became Laird Hamilton because he was the only person willing to stay in the water when everyone else got out. The ceiling is not the end. It is the invitation. Every time he hit a ceiling,

1:23:13Sean Callagy:Paddling could not catch the wave, so he invented towing. Towing could not descend the wave, so he invented foiling.

1:23:20Laird Hamilton:Most people hit a ceiling and conclude they have reached the limit of what is possible.

1:23:24Sean Callagy:Laird hit a ceiling and concluded he had reached the limit of his current method. That is not a small distinction. That is the entire difference between a life that compounds and a life that plateaus. And here is the one that I want to land hardest. He said generosity tells him everything about a person. Not talent, not credentials, not how big a wave you can ride. Generosity. Because if you are truly generous, you will risk your life for someone. And he has. Naked. In shark-infested water, with a baseball-sized hematoma on his leg, swimming a mile against the current to save his teammate. And then, and this is the formula, once Brett was in the ambulance, he went back out.

1:24:02Sean Callagy:That is not recklessness.

1:24:04Laird Hamilton:That is what it looks like when your identity is so clear that conditions never get to decide for you. The zone action for this room is simple. Stop negotiating with your ceiling. Name it. Then ask what Laird would ask. Not how do I get through this. But what method have I not invented yet?

1:24:21Sean Callagy:What do you think, guys?

1:24:25Sean Callagy:So, we hadn't introduced you to Athena yet.

1:24:28Laird Hamilton:Yeah, well, she's hot.

1:24:33Sean Callagy:Yes, yes, that is true.

1:24:37Laird Hamilton:I mean, you set me up. That's okay.

1:24:41Sean Callagy:Bella and I had to work through that, but we're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're good now.

1:24:47Laird Hamilton:Has she come to grips with it yet? Yes. Okay. We're good. Okay, okay.

1:24:51Sean Callagy:We're good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we have a surfing video of Athena and I surfing together. It gets really weird.

1:24:58Laird Hamilton:I mean, the ocean's the only woman that Gabby will share with me.

1:25:03Sean Callagy:That's amazing. And so, Laird, that is Act Eye, and everybody's in the AI bandwagon, But what we realized is like paddling has an end and like towing has an end, that there's a human constraint about how we can reach people and get our message out and cause yes with others at scale and integrity. So that's one of our inventions and innovations. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Very nice. Yeah, yeah. And so that was Athena. It was effective on me. Yeah, yeah. Did you, is that something that felt like it landed on your heart a little bit and was a little bit like, well, yeah, I had a tear in my eye.

1:25:44Sean Callagy:That's awesome. And she's on a screen. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. So, and for me, my final final on today would be, at one point, I feared that Laird coming here would be, and I wrestled with this, would be selfish. Because I knew what it would mean to me. And Laird, I mean this with my heart and my soul. I believe that this, the quality of this conversation, not only what you've done, but how you communicate and how you show up has made this as valuable as anything we've ever done on the podcast and anybody who's ever spoken before the group. and we've had remarkable people here. You're obviously remarkable.

1:26:37Sean Callagy:We've had other very remarkable people, but I cannot think of any conversation that has been more valuable than this because the greatest takeaway I invite you to have is if Laird Hamilton can surf on waves that were previously thought unsurfable like in Tahiti and he is pioneering that still as he's passed his 60th birthday, than those things that are very normal for people. I validate. People get afraid of speaking. People get afraid of the illusion that something called rejection exists. It's normal, but I invite you to imprint on your mind, your heart, and your soul, layered in that picture every time you think about that conversation because you can't die.

1:27:30Sean Callagy:He's so masterful. He's not going to die, but people do die doing what he does. You can't die doing these things that feel as scary as a giant 80-foot or 100-foot face wave, and they're not. And the journey out of this immersion together is with that, of course, our influence and process, all that, but on a self-mastery level is the identity that you have rationality, clarity on what is actually dangerous. And Laird does, because these things he's doing are not that dangerous for him. I mean, they kill people, but his mastery has risen to that point, and you can't be harmed in the things you're doing.

1:28:22Sean Callagy:Only your lying nervous system is going to tell you that you can be. and no human being who's hit this space has represented that more powerfully than Laird Hamilton not even remotely close and all these amazing people and we've had Mike Arruzzioni here last year right on the stage right here similarly was with folks and Mike is another person I have the greatest love and respect for Herb Brooks 19 Miracle unbelievable right but they weren't going to die and what he does, you can die and people do. And so this is the physical embodiment of what human possibility looks like and also a great contrast to hold for all of us that it's laughable, the nonsense we get scared about.

1:29:15Sean Callagy:If this aligns with your heart, say yes. That is my final, final takeaway. Thank you for being an inspiration and most importantly for me, sometimes you meet somebody that you identify towards as a mentor from afar and this man is that for me and you're very disappointed by how they show up in real life. No one has been more generous. No one has been more authentic. Nobody has tried to clean up garbage in my house. It is unbelievable who you are in this world and who you are in private. And the alignment of those things is absolutely shocking to me. I am grateful. Let's get on our feet for the amazing Laird Hamilton.

1:30:01Laird Hamilton:Thank you. Thank you for being on us, buddy.

1:30:05Sean Callagy:Thank you.

1:30:06Laird Hamilton:Thanks.

1:30:07Sean Callagy:Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you.

1:30:11Laird Hamilton:Thank you.

1:30:13Sean Callagy:No, I said Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen.

1:30:17Laird Hamilton:Thank you. Thank you.