In short
Kara Swisher discusses Silicon Valley’s “biggest lie” that tech leaders care about people, and ties this to performative political fealty, leadership failures, and what’s real vs hype in AI. She also critiques access journalism, argues for more accountability, and shares her experiences as a gay woman in tech reporting.
Guests
Kara Swisher, tech journalist and podcast host; co-host of Pivot. Interviewer: Katie Drummond, Wired Global Editorial Director, host of The Big Interview.
Guest backgrounds
Swisher is a long-time reporter covering tech executives; known for confrontational interviews and skepticism of privacy and “sneaky” practices. Drummond is a Wired editor and interviewer with podcast experience.
Key claims
Silicon Valley executives don’t feel duty to society; they prioritize shareholders/oligarchy. Performative dinners and overt loyalty to administrations are “knee-pad” behavior. AI is a general-purpose technology, but robotics + AI is the under-discussed second wave. Access journalism is “icky” and controlled; it’s often unnecessary now.
Notable examples
Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Tim Cook, Mark Cuban, Evan Spiegel, Brian Chesky. Swisher cites her earlier “lies Silicon Valley tells itself” reporting; her “Dogecoin” narrative work; and compares AI hype to early internet “round-tripping.” She predicts OpenAI and Google as likely winners.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOQuickfire Questions with Kara
2:20 to 4:50
Kara answers quickfire questions revealing her thoughts on tech and media.
“This is actually, nobody listening to this can see it, but it's a giant version of the Wired cover with Edward Snowden.”
Being a Woman in Tech
5:00 to 7:40
Kara discusses her experiences as a woman and a gay woman in tech journalism.
“Now, usually in these conversations, I would sort of get into someone's background and ask them about their childhood.”
Leadership in the Tech Industry
7:50 to 10:40
A discussion on leadership styles and responsibilities among tech executives.
“You know, again, it may have gone along with being a lesbian.”
Fealty to Power
10:41 to 14:00
Kara and Katie analyze the relationship between tech executives and government.
“spectrum to you when you think about this this collective of people yeah the surprise to me has been mark cuban actually i broke the story when he sold his company to yahoo i was at the wall journal at the time.”
Silicon Valley's Business Ethics and Short-Term Gain
14:00 to 19:20
Discusses the ethical dilemmas faced by Silicon Valley executives and their focus on shareholder value over societal duty.
“I have a very hard time swallowing that.”
Hope for a New Generation of Leaders
20:01 to 22:18
Kara Swisher reflects on the potential for a new generation of tech leaders who prioritize civic duty and community engagement.
“Do you have any hope that we will see a new kind of leader emerge in this industry, right?”
Criticism and Accountability in Tech Reporting
22:18 to 24:54
Kara discusses her role in tech journalism and addresses criticism regarding her past support for tech leaders.
“And I do think we've left them with a bag of shit is the thing, like in terms of things.”
The AI Talent Wars and Industry Implications
24:54 to 28:01
Explores the competitive landscape in AI, the implications of exorbitant salaries, and the real versus the hype in AI technology.
“Like they were made because they're billionaires.”
The Wealth and Risks of AI Investments
28:01 to 29:06
The discussion explores the implications of high salaries and investments in AI.
“And I said, would you prefer a circle jerk?”
The Impact of AI and Robotics
29:06 to 30:26
Examining how AI as a general-purpose technology will intertwine with robotics.
“What's really important about AI is a general purpose technology, right?”
Show all 19 chapters
Evaluating Major AI Companies
30:26 to 31:39
A critical look at the major players in the AI landscape and their future prospects.
“and then they will be the winner of that game.”
The State of Tech Journalism
31:40 to 35:17
Discussing the evolution of tech journalism from access to accountability.
“Well, now I'm interested for a few minutes in talking about journalism with you.”
Access Journalism vs Accountability
35:17 to 36:35
A debate on the value of access journalism and its decreasing relevance.
“And so they don't need you either, right?”
The Future of Kara Swisher's Career
36:35 to 37:44
Kara discusses her potential retirement and ongoing entrepreneurial spirit.
“What caught my attention was the end of a long career bit.”
Talking Money in Media
37:44 to 40:06
An open discussion about earnings in media and the importance of transparency.
“Like I'll make honey or something and it'll suddenly be - You'll sell flowers from your garden.”
Kara's Vision for the Washington Post
40:06 to 42:01
Kara shares her thoughts and plans regarding acquiring the Washington Post.
“But most of the things I've done, all of the things I've done have made money.”
The Role of Leadership in Journalism
42:01 to 45:01
Kara Swisher discusses her vision for leading a major publication and the state of journalism today.
“And what role do you see yourself playing in that?”
Control-Alt-Delete: A Tech Game
45:01 to 46:05
Kara plays a game discussing which technologies she would control, alter, or delete.
“That was the name of Walt's old podcast with Neal and Patel.”
Concerns About Wealth and Power
46:05 to 47:49
A deep dive into the impact of wealthy individuals and corporations on society and politics.
“I mean, on the funny side, it could be like Barry Diller once said, was talking about Hollywood and he said, they're so inbred, it's a miracle their children have teeth, which I thought was, I love that guy.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Kara Swisher:This show is supported by OutShift, Cisco's incubation engine. Today's AI agents operate in silos, limiting their true potential. We've been focused on building bigger, smarter models, but scaling up is just one approach. To reach superintelligence together, we need to do more. We need to scale out. And we actually have a blueprint from 70 ,000 years ago. Humans didn't just get smarter individually. The cognitive revolution transformed society because we began sharing knowledge, goals, and innovation. Agents are now at that same inflection point. They can connect, but they can't think together.
0:38Kara Swisher:That's why Outshift by Cisco is building the Internet of Cognition, transforming AI from isolated systems into orchestrated superintelligence. By creating an open, interoperable infrastructure, Outshift by Cisco is enabling agents and humans to share intent, context, and reasoning. The cognitive evolution for agents is here. Explore the Internet of Cognition at outshift.com. That's outshift.com.
1:10From Wired, this is The Big Interview. I'm Katie Drummond, Wired's Global Editorial Director. This week, I caught up with someone I've known for some time. She's a fellow tech journalist, albeit someone with a few more years under her belt than me. And she's a podcast host. And since I now, too, am a podcast host, I wanted to get a little bit of advice and talk shop. So I called up Kara Swisher, host of her own show and the co-host of Pivot, to join me on the big interview today. As you probably would have imagined, this conversation was collegial. Maybe even a little bit easy. In part because, no big secret here, we are both women reporting on and criticizing a world dominated by men.
1:50We talk about interviewing arrogant pricks, the power of negging, and who would play Kara in a movie. But I also get a bit of advice about how to, well, care less. Okay, here's our conversation.
2:09All right. Kara Swisher, welcome to The Big Interview. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I'm sorry I can't be in person at your beautiful studio. Next time. Yes, it is truly glorious here in this tiny closet. Who's that behind you in your head? This is actually, nobody listening to this can see it, but it's a giant version of the Wired cover with Edward Snowden.
2:29Kara Swisher:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Look at him. There he is. And one of our reporters, Andy Greenberg, had this in his house for years. And then finally was like, my wife needs me to get this out of the house. Can I bring it to the office? And I said, sure. So now it sits behind me when I record the podcast. Sort of this creepy style of him hugging the flag. I did a good interview with him many years ago. Many, many years ago. He's still out there. Yeah, he is. Okay. Well, we like to start with a little game. We like to start with some quickfire questions. I'm sure you're used to this kind of thing. You ready to go?
3:00Kara Swisher:Ready. Okay. Most active text thread you're on? Oh, God. With my kids. Podcasts or substacks? What do you mean? Do I listen? Pick one. Oh, podcasts. Yeah, I figured. Obviously. The tech exec you would least want to get stuck in an elevator with? Oh, my God, all of them. Mark Zuckerberg. More disruptive, AI or social media? Social media. Still or sparkling? Still. Biggest lie Silicon Valley keeps telling itself? That it cares about people. Who would play you in a biopic? Well, that's a good question. I'm just having a meeting about that. Oh, tell us more. Tell us much more about this. You want more?
3:47Kara Swisher:Quick. Well, now I want more. Okay. My burn book sold to a production studio, Tomorrow Productions. Maybe it'll get made, maybe it won't, but I'm actually meeting writers, and I think they feel like they can sell it, so we'll see. Well, and who do they feel like would play you? I don't know. I think, you know, they had talked about Kristen Stewart, I think. That's good. That's actually quite good. It should be a believable lesbian, right? Who's kind of a sassy person. I love Aubrey Plaza. I think she's great. But she's too tall. They're all too tall is the problem. There's no one sort of tiny like I am.
4:23There are no tiny actors?
4:25Kara Swisher:Yes, there are. But it's got to be. I'm just trying to think who it would work well with. I mean, probably the woman who plays Wednesday. What's her name? Oh, Jenna Ortega. Jenna Ortega might work. It's got to be someone who is, well, they don't have to be, this height doesn't matter, I guess. They can act their way out of that. Yeah, they can act their way. I don't know. I don't know. I think an unknown. An unknown. An unknown. I like it. What's the interview that changed you the most? Oh, the Gates Jobs interview. The one that Walt Mossberg and I did together with Gates and Jobs. That was a really important interview.
4:57Kara Swisher:I think it's going to last the test of time. I think people will watch it centuries from now. It was really a highlight of my career. Now, usually in these conversations, I would sort of get into someone's background and ask them about their childhood. No, all right. I'm not going to do that. I feel like we have too much to talk about. Yeah, okay. But I did want to use this as an opportunity to ask you about being a woman, being a gay woman, no less, in a historically male field. and I think one where the subjects of your reporting right very often are men and you did a podcast a while ago called design matters you said that you wanted to write a series of three books for women and other people who may need these books and they would be no is a complete sentence yeah yes I'll take that yeah and maybe I'll call you back yeah I think it's brilliant I guess just more about the experience of being a woman and a gay woman in the field that you were and an ambitious woman at that.
5:53Right, absolutely.
5:54Kara Swisher:I think gay has not hurt me actually in the field because I think that men, they're more comfortable with me for some reason because I guess we like ladies. I don't know. I don't know what it is. Because they're largely straight men and it's largely straight white men actually and a few different other kinds of people, but it's largely that. And so I think they're relatively comfortable with the gay part. I've never really gotten any kind of pushback on that issue. And actually, I do think it's actually a net positive in general. I think I've told this story, but I was at an event and a bunch of VCs were looking at the ladies and they're like, oh, she's cute.
6:32Kara Swisher:What do you think, Kara? And I go, still a feminist. I was like, I don't talk about women objectively like that. And so, you know, except for the hunting wives, and I think they're welcoming that kind of scrutiny of themselves. I love that show so much. As a woman, I don't think that's hindered me necessarily either. And may it go along with the gay part. I don't find, even if they do it in hiring and they create these manospheres in technology, what they've done for a long time, it hasn't kept me out. They haven't favored men until recently. They are doing that for sure. Yeah. Or men who like them and who are slavishly attentive to them.
7:14Kara Swisher:Then they're willing to do interviews. But that has to do with slavishness, not with anything else. I think there's a lot to your style and your approach that has meant that you are often described as unlikable. Yes. And I think that that is a function of being a woman. Sure. I don't hear a lot of strong-willed men being described as unlikable. I hear them described as strong-willed men. Yes, exactly. I don't care. I stopped caring about that a long time ago. And did that ever waver? I mean, how did you learn not to care? or did you just always do you just genetically not care? Genetically not care.
7:48Kara Swisher:I just was like that when I was a kid. You know, again, it may have gone along with being a lesbian. I don't know. Just like I don't need the favor of men, like that kind of thing. You know, it was interesting because I don't think it is unlikable. It's that I'm being honest with them, right? Like whenever I do interviews, I don't do the sort of wind up. I don't do the I don't say I'm going to do one thing and then do another. And I think that's relatively fair. I actually have gotten more than my fair share of great interviews, right? They haven't not interviewed with me. It's just, that's an easy thing.
8:19Kara Swisher:You know, why are you so mean? Like, I get that from some of them, not all of them for sure, but some of them who are really sensitive. One more question about being a girl. And I've wanted to ask you this. I'm obviously a woman. I work in journalism. I work in tech. But I get a lot of advice as a woman in this job in particular about the way I dress, about the fact that I don't wear makeup. Every time there's a social clip of me that runs on the Wired account, at least one person will say, makeup, please, obviously. And I'm like, no, I don't wear makeup. I'm not interested in wearing makeup. What advice do you have?
9:01Just ignore it. Well, for me, but just for women in general who are ambitious, who work in male-centric spaces,
9:11Kara Swisher:ignore it sure but what else i tend to meet that kind of stuff with jokes back that are insulting you know that that do the same thing like sometimes when men start down that negging you know it's called negging road i often go did you lose weight oh no i guess not like that that's one of my favorites because that men are like you think women are crazy about weight men are insane interestingly i was on a tv show and i was one of my sons was with me who was at the time i guess maybe 12 or 13. I've taught them well. I went in and the guy who was sitting in the green room with my son was like, doesn't your mother smile?
9:47Kara Swisher:And my son looked at me and said, did you just say that? And that's all he said. It's incredible. I get smile a lot. And I have started just saying, no, that's just my face. Yeah. That's actually just how it looks. Like I really don't hear it anymore. I just don't. It's so stupid. They're so fucking juvenile. I I just like I have enough toddlers in my life that I don't need more. Well, speaking of toddlers, arguably, we have to talk about leadership in the tech industry. I couldn't talk to you without without bringing it up. They are toddlers. They are toddlers. You've covered them. You've interviewed them for decades.
10:24Yeah. And just to start, because there's a lot to talk about here. when you look back now who among this set of course they are not a monolith who has sort of continued to take their responsibility to all of us to society most seriously and who has failed the most profoundly are there sort of standouts on either end of the spectrum to you when you think about this this collective of people yeah the surprise to me has
10:50Kara Swisher:been mark cuban actually i broke the story when he sold his company to yahoo i was at the wall journal at the time. And he was a lot of an arrogant little prick. You know what I mean? I actually just interviewed him and I told him, I reminded him that you said he was an arrogant prick back in the day. Yeah, he was. He was. He was like so arrogant. But I still liked him. I still, he's a pleasant fellow, but he was sort of like, got my money, gonna do my team like that, you know, whatever. Like it was fine. I probably shouldn't judge that. But he's really developed into this really interesting, complex person.
11:24Kara Swisher:And I never necessarily know what he's going to say, but I always know he's going to have thought about it. I guess I feel like that. And I think that he is, I suspect through having kids and other things, he's really developed and matured. Another person like that is Evan Spiegel from Snapchat. Boy, we have a set too in our line. He was mad at the press and decided I was the press, even though I had written Not Ward 1 about his stupid, that email he did where he was going to pee on, I don't know. Remember that there was a whole like bad set of emails that were found. Okay. I mean, I believe it.
11:58Kara Swisher:He was in college. Like I'm going to give him an out on that one alone. Okay. Okay. I remember this. Yeah. And we were having lunch and he yelled at me. I was like, I didn't write word one about this. Like, honestly, I don't know why you're yelling at me. And he was, he was mad at the press in general. And, and he has really developed into a really thoughtful person. And Brian Chesky is another person I like a lot, who I really think is honest about his feelings and stuff like that. You know, we don't like cuddle and like comb each other's hair, but I really think he tries to be a better person, I guess a better man.
12:31Kara Swisher:Most of them do not try to be a better man, but in general, Zuckerberg at the top of the list, Elon, obviously, but I think he's plagued by other issues, personal. And I'm not, that's not an excuse, that's just an explanation. I think there's a lot going on there that is really, I don't want to say tragic because he kind of brings it on himself. So, but it's sad. It's really sad to me. It is sad. Yeah. You know, Tim Cook these days is a little bit, especially since he's retiring, I'm like, really, this is how you want to go out? Well, this is what I'm wondering about. And I ask anyone I can about this because I'm genuinely curious for different interpretations.
13:08This cozy dynamic, this very visible, here we all are at dinner together. It's on C-SPAN. Here I am in my tuxedo in the UK, in the palace with the president. I mean, here I am with a tchotchke in the Oval Office. That's, you know, a Tim Cook example. The gold statue. I want your assessment of the why. Why are these executives, they're not only sort of working with the administration behind the scenes, you have to imagine they're doing that, but there is this overt demonstration of fealty that we are seeing. And interestingly, that you bring up Mark Cuban, I asked him this question and he said, if they need to buy knee pads with a D on one knee and a T on the other and get on their knees, that's what they'll do.
13:55That's what they'll do. And he essentially, he seemed to think that that was just the way business works. That's a business imperative. I have a very hard time swallowing that.
14:04Kara Swisher:In this moment, in this moment, there's versions of that. In any administration, there's versions of it, right? So you have to curry favor. It's usually just dinner and a donation, that kind of thing. And now this guy requires a different kind of fealty, which is very explicit performative fealty. And so they'll do it and they'll use shareholder value, whatever, at the top of their list for doing it. And so if this is the cost of doing business, this is the cost of doing business. I feel they don't have to. I don't think it's the cost of doing business, but they seem to think it is. And there certainly are a lot of juicy bits to slice up.
14:38Kara Swisher:And so they want, especially in AI, especially in all these contracts. And so to me, I just feel like you get wealthy enough and you still are doing this. It's like, it sort of is the reason you're rich, so you don't have to do this. But I think they feel a duty to their shareholders. And that's their number one. They don't have a duty to society. They don't feel like they have a duty to anything else. On the other side, there's people who like it, who like it, who like to exercise power. You know, Zuckerberg would be one of those. He likes, and he really does think this because he's a particularly victimized person.
15:12Kara Swisher:He always feels like he's a victim. And so I think he kind of wants to do it. So he's doing what he, he's so tired of ladies telling him what to do. He's going to put on his like MMA mitts and go for it. Like any performative maleness, it should be a sign for you to run for the hills. But, you know, and some of them have switched. Like Sergey Brin has gotten quite Trumpy. Sure. And I know this from his family, most of whom are horrified, let me say, because I talk to them. But, you know, he's got a girlfriend who's real Trumpy. So there he goes down Trump Avenue. And I kind of think it makes sense.
15:46Kara Swisher:I'll tell you, one of the things they desperately need, the ones that are sort of there for the power and everything else, is if affirmation and getting back to negging people, I ran into one of them and I'm not going to say which one. And they're like, looks like we won, Kara. We beat you, Kara. They said something like, and D.C. They're in D.C. where I live, which I'm like, why did you come to my home? Like, I moved all the way across country to get away from you. but they're like looks like we won it was at some event looks like we won kara and i go you did but you're still an asshole and they just went because they're still an asshole so that's as far as whatever good luck and again it's obviously sort of different for for every given executive right they're yes obviously different people when you think about sort of the short-term gain, long-term pain here.
16:38Do you see this playing out in three years, assuming we have a different administration in a way that hurts these companies, right?
16:45Kara Swisher:It's short-sighted. I think it's really short-sighted because at some point, someone else will be in charge, right? And I think it'll, especially some of the, you know, the obsequious stuff that they didn't have to do. I mean, I do make that joke over and over. If Kamala Harris won, Mark Zuckerberg would be a they-them, right? He would. He'd be like, I love kombucha. And, oh, God, Charlie XCX, my favorite, like, whatever. Taylor Swift, the best. But I do think some of it, you know, actually, I don't because they know Democrats won't do what Trump will do, right? I think a lot of them are in fear, very much so, you know, in some way.
17:23Kara Swisher:And fear of hurting their business, something, you know, they can see what he's doing. He seems very willing to take it to the mat, wherever it is. And so I think some of them are fearful. And so the short-term gain, I was with some Apple people who are just horrified by Tim's behavior. And I go, well, I guess shareholder value. And they said, it isn't good for shareholder value. It's not. In the long term, it's not because it's not what our company is, right? And so in the short term, we get a tariff break. In the short term, we get this. But as a rule, it's not about business. It's about oligarchy.
18:03Kara Swisher:And therefore, you don't compete based on the right things. You also don't let little companies rise, right? Like if you control everything, you're going to atrophy. I think a lot of people do think that on the other side. I mean, what has felt interesting to me, there's obviously sort of the silence at the executive level, which we didn't see in 2016 to this extent, but the silence of the workforce inside these companies. I mean, you hear it sort of anecdotally, but we're not seeing mass uprisings inside Google, inside Apple. We're not seeing this really spill over into the press. No, they fired them.
18:39Kara Swisher:They just fired an Amazon person who protested for Palestine. like when did those free speech warriors let that happen right that's the whole thing that was such a performative amount of bullshit that was like it just suited them to do that they don't want people to say what they think you know or else I'd be doing regular interviews with Mark Zuckerberg he wants people to tell him how great he is at MMA well Mark you're a big important man Mark yeah you're a big big boy you're a big important man
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20:00What gives you hope when you look at Silicon Valley, when you look at the industry, when you look at leadership? Do you have any hope that we will see a new kind of leader emerge in this industry, right? Leadership, more engaged with civic duty. Sure. Is it a generational shift? I mean, what does that require? And are there people out there who are representative of that to you right now?
20:21Kara Swisher:Well, my own son. Like, I see a lot of young—my son is a tech person. He's studying tech at Michigan, and he's thinking of lots of— and it's not because I trained him or anything else. He's also a frat bro, so I didn't stop that. All his friends and the people around him talk about much deeper things, like energy, about fixing things, about climate. I just taught a course at Michigan, largely so I can irritate my son, for seven weeks. And I was so moved by the students. And they're not like dumb, like idealistic, although I don't mind that in a college student, by the way. But they really do have a sense of community.
21:00Kara Swisher:Like my son, he's a mechanical engineer. He wants to make things that and a lot of it has to do with community helping people. At the same time, he's a capitalist, right but he doesn't see it as a power thing maybe someday he will and then i'll slap him back to last sunday if he does that but i do think that he has the real idealism of like i want to make something that matters that'll help a lot of people like i've been doing this documentary for cnn about longevity and health and all those people i find to be really moving in terms of of a real um but it's not like dumb optimism like a lot of the early internet people like zuckerberg was always like what i really want to build is bring the world together i'm like you're not a fucking coke comer and he never did like it was all bullshit like the first story i ever wrote for the wall street journal was the lies silicon valley tells itself and it was all like we're here for the community there's no there's no ceo here they had like 10 of them that when i immediately got there from the East Coast, I was like, that's a bullshit.
Read the full transcript
22:04Kara Swisher:That's a bullshit. And I did a whole story in the journal. And these people aren't, these younger people aren't like that. They're not telling themselves lies. So we have hope. I do. I was glad to do that teaching thing at Michigan because I just find dealing with young people so much, like the problem is these guys, right? And it's not the younger people. And I do think we've left them with a bag of shit is the thing, like in terms of things. But I do think there's sort of both my older sons aren't on social media anymore. I don't think they're unusual. My one older son got off of a bunch of them and I said, well, I didn't tell him to do it.
22:42Kara Swisher:And he was like, I was like, why did you do that? And he goes, it makes me feel bad. Like a very simple sentence. He's not a tech person. He understands. And all his friends are like that, too. Well, he's right. I mean, it makes me feel bad, too. Yeah. Well, why do you stay on Twitter there? I don't. Okay, good. Yeah, I don't. I deleted my account. I don't like it. I don't want to be there. I don't need to be there. No one can force me. Yeah, no one can. I am curious about you and social media. And in particular, I would say that when I see criticism of Kara Swisher, it's usually on social media.
23:12And it's something to the effect of Kara Swisher was bullish on the industry for too long. She built these guys up. Now here she is tearing them down. But she won't answer for her role in XYZ.
23:26Kara Swisher:Do you pay attention to that? I don't because, you know, like, look, I was a beat reporter. I was writing about their businesses. I think where it comes from is Elon. And I did have great hopes for Elon. I think that's where most of it comes from. I was never nice to Zuckerberg. I dare you to go find a nice article I read about Mark Zuckerberg. The iconic sweaty interview. Sweaty. I mean, I'm sorry. I was very questioning of all their privacy issues. I was questioning of all their sneaky bullshit they did around people's accounts. I was always so I don't think that's the case. I would suspect I really did like Steve Jobs.
24:02Kara Swisher:I did. But I thought those interviews were pretty interesting. I don't think they were slavish. And I thought they were actually fascinating. We challenged him constantly. Yeah, I think it's all around Elon. And I would I would cop to that. I really was so tired of all these very selfish people like Zuckerberg and others. and I had great hopes when someone was working on cars and climate and really cool stuff. Like, it was like all these Silicon Valley people, there's a bunch of smart people working on stupid things. And here was someone who wasn't, really wasn't. Right. With a huge vision. With a vision, right?
24:39Kara Swisher:And so I guess when, I would probably say when Steve died, I and others were looking for that, looking for a bigger idea beyond that. And so, yeah, Yeah, I would cop to that. I just don't think like the idea that I made any of these people is just utter bullshit. Like they were made because they're billionaires. They were made because they created significant companies. And so I don't think I helped him by any means. And I thought if you actually go back and listen to the interviews, they're not as kind as you think they are. I think they're pretty fair. And then when I do the heel turn and I'm like, wait a minute, this is a real problem.
25:14that's not that that's my issue with I'm quite liberal but that's my issue with a lot of liberals
25:20Kara Swisher:is like when people change the purity tests are exhausting for a lot of friends of mine who are conservative who do not like Trump well you can't come in our thing because you were with them I'm like well imperfect allies is is life right and so I find that really that part I'm like oh for fuck's sake you and your purity tests can go fuck yourself like I'm sorry I'm doing and by the way since I would say 2015, I've been, you know, I call them sheeple. I said, this Trump thing is dangerous. I wrote in the New York times, like the weaponization of, I call them weapons dealers. I remember that. I don't know what to say, but it's fine.
25:58Kara Swisher:It's fine. It's fine. I have to ask you, I have to ask you about AI. I mean, many things I could ask you, you know, one of the things we've been covering at Wired a lot recently are the talent wars, which I am obsessed with just because they are so outrageous and outlandish. I love reading your stuff. Oh, well, thank you. I mean, much credit to the reporters who will get these scoops. Well, you know, you did such a great do... You know what? Can I just make a point? I've made this with you. Make a point. You are so smart in creating narratives, and this is a great one. The Doge one, you did great.
26:31Kara Swisher:You understood. It's something we did at All Things D. We had narratives, whether it was at the time it was Yahoo or Uber was a big narrative for us. But this one is really breathtaking, like what's happening here. It is wild. And who would you rather work for, Sam Altman or Mark Zuckerberg, if they were both offering you$100 million? Probably Altman. How do you differentiate between the two? I mean, it's a low bar, isn't it? I think in the times I've spent with Sam, there are touches of normalness. He understands his problem. I think better. Mark has no idea about his problems. He doesn't look backwards for one second.
27:09Kara Swisher:Although I thought when Sam did this whole will opt out thing, I thought that was breathtakingly typical of these people. I was surprised by it, I guess. I wasn't surprised because they always do this. You know, this AI thing is really interesting because I think, didn't AMD just announce another Oracle deal today? One of these? Yeah, I mean, the deals are, it's on a daily basis. It's crazy. And so it's interesting because I think Scott and I had said it reminds us of Purchase Pro back with AOL. You don't remember this, but AOL did a bunch of deals like this where you'd give people money and then they'd buy ads on your service.
27:43Kara Swisher:And then you'd invest in them and get warrants and then they would buy you. So like these circular. Circular deals. And it was called round tripping at the time. And one of these companies came up to me and said, well, you shouldn't call it round tripping, Cara. I'm like, well, nothing's being made here. Like you're just moving$5 back and forth. And I said, would you prefer a circle jerk? I'll use that word if you like, because that's what it feels like. And salaries are part of that, right? It's part of this sort of, you know, at some point, someone's going to be very wealthy from this. And so maybe the bet isn't a bad one.
28:16Kara Swisher:It's just that if everyone's making this bet, especially around talent and investments, someone's going to lose just like they did in the early Internet era. Except the profound effect of it is massive because these are the companies that are holding up the entire stock market. So it has huger implications. And the salary stuff is like when every time I read a story, I'm like, are you? That's insane. It's insane money. It's ridiculous money. And I guess my question to you is, from where you sit, what is the there there with AI? What's real in this moment? And what is marketing? What is hype? What is fear-mongering?
28:56And what's the there there? And is the there there ultimately enough to sustain the outrageous amount of money being pumped into this industry?
29:05Kara Swisher:Not all of them. Just one or two of them, right? What's really important about AI is a general purpose technology, right? It crosses everything. It's not like you're going from farming to mechanized farming. That's a single device, right? AI is general purpose for everything. And so you could see it changing so many different, especially in the, you know, this is the old trope. It's like it's going to affect information people. But in combination, which I think is left out of a lot of this, is robotics plus AI. I think robotics gets no attention. You mean physical robotics? Yes. I think it's really like the, and because, that's because Elon's running the discussion because it's all about humanoid looking robots.
29:47Kara Swisher:But I'm talking about real robots. Like, they're not going to look, by the way, making a humanoid robot, a lot of gears. Like, very, very simple robots that are going to do everything. And then they're powered by AI intelligence could be really, like, you say plumbers aren't going to affect it. Is that so? Right. You know, like, I think they weren't going to affect it first. but they will certainly get affected second. And so if everything's getting affected, some companies are gonna control quite a lot of everything, right? And then it will take individual companies in those sectors like insurance or whatever the sector happened, medicine, and then they will be the winner of that game.
30:30Kara Swisher:There'll be all these sort of winners in this area. So if you were one of the winners, you'd think the money was well-spunned. And if you aren't, then it's just gone, right? Anyone you're willing to bet on at this stage? No. I mean, I'm always sort of sitting there going, is OpenAI Netscape or Google, right? Like that's, I think, which was very, everyone thought Netscape was hung the fucking moon and then it just didn't, right? Remember that? I barely, but I do. Yes. If I had a bet, I suspect OpenAI. I feel like they're Google. I think they kind of are doing just enough and innovating just enough.
31:04Kara Swisher:Yeah. I suspect Google itself has a lot of the advantages. Probably in some areas, Microsoft, not so much Amazon, Apple will sort of ride on everybody's rails. Where does Meta end up in all of this? You know, they have a lot of information. They sure do. There's no vision though. No, I think he's just like throwing money at it. I just don't understand. I guess, you know where he could do advertising? They're all moving into advertising, aren't they? With AI. That's an area he certainly can dominate. That's no question. I'm not worried for Mark Zuckerberg. But I think in terms of pure companies, it would be OpenAI and Google would be my guess.
31:49All right. Well, now I'm interested for a few minutes in talking about journalism with you.
31:55Kara Swisher:Sure. I'm interested in your assessment of tech journalism and the balance between, quote unquote, access journalism, right, which is essentially where a company, let's say, invites you in, you meet with all their executives, you write something that is sort of tacitly agreed will be a friendly piece versus accountability journalism. And I remember 15, 20 years ago, access was really much more the name of the game. It was. And then in like the mid-2010s, it really shifted. Yeah. I'm curious if you think we still need the access part. Is there value in that kind of reporting to you? No. No. And someone who had a lot of access being at the, I know I was at the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post.
32:37Kara Swisher:I always felt, always kind of icky. You know what I mean? Sure. Like you didn't, you didn't, it wasn't good. and you didn't really get that much out of it, right? It wasn't really a plus. It was interesting because we got a lot of access even though we weren't big because they thought we could hurt them. I think that was really what it was. I don't think access gives you much of anything because people are leaky as can be these days, right? Sure. And I think I kind of perfected that at All Things D with like Yahoo, you know, the joke that I was in the heating ducts and stuff like that. I think I kind of perfected that, like getting stuff not from them, getting memos getting um getting insiders to say it was happening and when i started really doing that sort of more heavily as opposed to when i was at the wall street journal everything changed like the power dynamic was very different because you didn't need those people all you needed to do was be a really good reporter and call and call and call and like like what you guys did with doge was sort of classic that i don't think you were hanging around with elon musk in any at all Absolutely not.
33:41Kara Swisher:Absolutely not. But you didn't need to because there was enough sources. And so I think the way, especially as communications have changed, people can text, signal. And that didn't exist in my earliest days. They had to call you or you had to physically see them or things like that. And so I don't think you need access at all. In fact, I think it's a negative. I don't mind having interesting, like if you guys did a great big interview with Tim Cook, I'd be interested in it. If he would say anything. Right, that's true. Again, it's the issue with access. is it's very controlled it's it's it's very carefully managed on the part of of the subject of the interview which is why you know i think some of those interviews we did at code and all things d like mark's wedding interview was a moment for him he's not doing this again right right because he really really messed up but the more problematic interview was the later one he agreed to do with me about the holocaust deniers where he also like i got him to say stuff and so after that, I knew I was never going to get another interview because something in me is able to get him to say a thing that's the truth, right?
34:47Kara Swisher:And for some reason, our report, he seems nervous or whatever it happens to be. And so I think all of them looked around and said, why should we talk to fucking Kara Swisher, that unlikable bitch? She's always giving a bust in our chops and not saying how smart we are, slash whoever it happens to be, right? And we're sick of going to the really nice ones the slate the ones that are really you know like licking them up and down right so and there's plenty of those like a lot like oh how did your brain get so big like that kind of stuff and they don't like those either so then they just did their own media right and you know they either do their conferences by their like i couldn't do a conference like code today no way yeah they go to their own thing r emmanuel just had one that scott went to um you know they all pet each other all day i guess and nobody says anything on tour because they're all doing business.
35:37Kara Swisher:And so they don't need you either, right? So why even bother? It's such a, it's, it's, and, and you could do, and by the way, I bet you do, I bet you get them a lot better because you're, you, you get them the other way, you know, you get them around back. For sure. I mean, it's, as a journalist, it's much more interesting work to be doing. Yeah. And then you don't have to talk to them. Well, yes. And I, I don't want to. I mean, not to not check facts. Like that's different. You have to call the company. You have to get the response. But I've noticed lately, I was, If you're reading one of your stories, they didn't get back to you.
36:08Kara Swisher:They just don't get back to you. They don't necessarily feel the need to be in touch. I have noticed that more than anything else. Like you call them for a fact and they don't even get back to you now. Now that's really strange to me. Like that seems really a bad development. Let me ask you this. The New York Times did a story on your podcasting success earlier this year. They had a quote from you that caught my attention. You said, quote, at the end of this long career, it's like, oh, wow. I made something people really like. What caught my attention was the end of a long career bit. Just because it made me think, do you see yourself stopping at any point?
36:45Is retirement an appealing option for you? Or maybe you wouldn't characterize it as retirement.
36:50Kara Swisher:No, I think, you know what happens? I just keep doing really well. Like I keep doing things. It's hard to do well. Well, no, I am saying I think I'm entrepreneurial, right? And I think I, like, so far, everything's worked really well. And every time I make more money. So it's sort of weird, like the podcasting things worked out rather well for me. And it's actually a product I really am proud of. You know, over your career, you're like, oh, I didn't like this part. And I'm kind of got it to where I like it, right? You know, like I now have the amount of employees, which is zero, they work for Vox.
37:20Kara Swisher:I kind of like where I am. At the same time, one, I think older people should get out of the fucking way for young people. That's one. And let them do that. Two, I have a number, I think it's 70, I will quit. That's real. 70. And I will just do whatever I want. I was thinking I'll write historical novels or, you know, sit in my garden and do, I'll end up doing well because I'm actually quite entrepreneurial. Like I'll make honey or something and it'll suddenly be - You'll sell flowers from your garden. I'll sell flowers. But I might, I'm so entrepreneurial, I kind of want to make it successful.
37:53Kara Swisher:So yeah, I could see, Scott and I signed another four-year deal with Vox and my aunt is another four-year. I think, I suspect maybe one more after that and then we'll be done. Well, that was the other thing that was interesting about the New York Times story was the enormous amount of money you stand to make. You don't necessarily make it, but because of the deal you made with Fox Media, you're very well positioned to make a lot of money. I'm less interested in the money itself, although I love that for you, but I'm actually interested in the decision to talk about how much money you make, which I don't think people do enough.
38:29And I'm just curious about why you did that.
38:32Kara Swisher:Well, you just answered it because people don't do it enough. Because people should talk about it. I think we lose power when we don't say how much money we make. And we also lose power when we don't say what people aren't making because a lot of it is bullshit, right? Like I can do math for many of these businesses. But I think because it inspires people that you can make money and I'm going to try to help you do that yourself. And so we already made a lot of money from our last deal. People don't realize that too. we actually were, we were, how much money did you make in that one? Um,$25 million, both of us together, something like that.
39:04Kara Swisher:So yeah. So it was, we got in that case, I had a guarantee of$500 ,000 for each show. And then if the guarantee wasn't met, you didn't get anymore. Right. Which I don't love guarantees by the way. I don't think, I think you shouldn't have guarantees. If you make it, you make it. If you don't, you don't, but some people, I get why people do them, but we got a better split by not having the guarantee. And so the last one, we were getting a guarantee of, I don't know, this is just for Pivot, each of us$500 ,000. But the thing is, we made that money. We made that. It wasn't like we didn't, Vox made it and more.
39:39Kara Swisher:And so, you know, it was so interesting because a lot of the union people like, oh, giving care of the money. I'm like, I earned every fucking cent of that. I mean, you have a lucrative product for them. That's right. And then it also makes money to help Vox as a business also, by the way. They made profits on it. They were able to do different and more things. And so I just think people should talk about what they make, especially women. It's like, why don't you just say, and if you fuck up, you say, oh, that didn't make money. We did a conference down in Florida. It didn't make money. It didn't make money.
40:08Kara Swisher:Because it's hard in the first year. And then we just didn't do it anymore. Like, that's all. But most of the things I've done, all of the things I've done have made money. Well, speaking of making money, I mean, you're talking about retiring at 70. What I'm wondering is, when, if ever, will you buy the Washington Post from Jeff Bezos? Well, I have a whole plan. I know you do. Are you still working on this plan? I really do. Like, I have inquired. I have gone back. I have an investment banker who's been talking to his people. They are not engaging. And I don't know. Like just today, there was a story about how there's no more money to be made there.
40:45Kara Swisher:Like he has run this thing into the fucking wall in being, being, I guess he just doesn't care. Like that's, he's so rich, he doesn't care. He's richer than ever. What is he, has$250 billion. Like, so I guess he doesn't care. And so he'll, I have an idea that will make it break even, like not a really great business, you know, at all by any means. but I think it's more than that and I have an idea about creator networks and stuff like that but now it's kind of water under the fucking bridge if he had actually engaged with me at the time or people like me a lot you know instead he brings in this terrible CEO and who just soils himself on a daily basis and then and then and doesn't want to do anything with it so you only it's sort of like why are the Ellisons on CBS why do the Ellisons want this they aren't interested in news they want the studios.
41:36Kara Swisher:Like it's so obvious and this is a cheaper way to get the studios. And so none of these people care about the news. I happen to care like an idiot. And I think I could do okay and employ people and matter to create, you know, really good, truthful reporting. And so I'm not doing it in this case. It wouldn't be for the money. It would be for the, I think I can make it a business, a little business, like a pretty good business. And what role do you see yourself playing in that? Are you the CEO of this, of the Washington Post? No, I'm not qualified. I've made Jim Bankoff the CEO, for example, like someone who, or someone like that, like someone who has business acumen or someone like that.
42:14Kara Swisher:I don't, I don't even know. But, but I think I would, I'd just be on, I'd be the chairman of the board, I guess, or, and maybe editorial direct. I don't, I don't even need a title. I would get a kick ass bunch of editors. I think Matt Murray, by the way, is doing a nice job, but he is him and the new guy, the toddler they hired to run the opinion section. Oh, yes. Well, I think you might fire him. Oh, I would. That's what I would do. I would be the fiver. I'd be like, hi, get your shit out of here. Like I would that that is it. I have never really done it that way, but that's how I would walk in there.
42:48Kara Swisher:And I'm like, sue me. Go ahead. I mean, I got lawyers in the back. My theory depends more on journalism across the country. Well, this is my last question for you. What are you wearing? Look what I'm wearing. The Minnesota Star Tribune. I was just there. A friend of mine is the CEO now. I was speaking in front of his staff. They're trying to redo themselves. They happen to have a nice billionaire who owns them at this point. Love a nice billionaire. But very innovative stuff they're trying there. They're trying innovative stuff. My friend Renee Sanchez, who used to run this paper, is doing this thing in Louisiana that's amazing.
43:22Kara Swisher:Mississippi Today. There's all this stuff that needs a joint advertising, legal distribution video framework. You know, the New York Times is, I invented it here, and they do all their things really well by themselves. But there's room for someone who brings everything together that has journalistic trust. And I think the Post still barely has that. I mean, by a thread. I mean, that was my question for you is, you know, the Ellison's own, God, I mean, they own CBS News now. They have oversight of TikTok and its algorithm. You've got Bezos and The Post. It's a lot. Except what are they buying? Because, like, first, Bezos is doing nothing with The Post.
44:05Kara Swisher:So what's the point? And then the Ellison's, like, they buy something. Like, everyone was like, oh, CBS. I'm like, hands of people who last watched the CBS Evening News. And it's like, nobody, right? Hands of people who watch it on social media, one. So what they're buying is curiously problematic. Well, but the question, I guess, is where does journalism go from here? I wouldn't rely on broadcast networks as journalism. Sure, no. I think there's money roads to get to places. And so you could do what you're doing, which is taking a storied brand and actually reinvigorating it and trying all manner of different things.
44:43Kara Swisher:What doesn't work, what works. I totally see what you've done there, and it's worked, right? Yeah. Subscriptions up. Maybe you'll move into something else. So you're trying to be dynamic.
44:56We're going to wrap up, but before we do, I'm going to force you to play a little game. All right. It's called Control-Alt-Delete.
45:06Kara Swisher:That was the name of Walt's old podcast with Neal and Patel. Oh, yeah. Well, this is like Fuck, Marry, Kill, but for nerds. So what piece of tech would you love to control? What would you alter or change? And what would you delete? What would you vanquish from the earth? Control, alter, delete. Well, that's social media. I would do that. But I don't think I could. But social media, I would delete. I would kill, I guess. That's the thing. Alter would be AI. How would you alter it? Just add safety guidelines and really think and have more government regulation. The practical stuff that we should be doing but aren't.
45:42Kara Swisher:But I believe in it. I'm not like one of those dooms, like it's going to kill us. I mean, lots of things. Nuclear energy, nuclear didn't kill us. And it could actually help us a lot. So I don't, I'm not one of those people. So I would say alter. And marry. Control, but sure. Oh, control. I think government. So you could reform it so that it was more democratic again. like bring it back to because i think our form of government is problematic as it is has always been the best one and so i would get money out of politics like instant like get rid of uh i would make the supreme court bigger i would do like if i could do whatever i wanted and so i i'd be i'd pull a george fucking washington is what i do very nice you know like i'd be the modern day version of that i think our government it was critical to research to the internet guess what guess who been to the internet the fucking government yeah um i think our government is so critical to so many things that it deserves to have a renaissance and unfortunately it's been captured by oligarchs and and a very coin-operated president um he's the least of my worries if you can believe it like because he i get him he's a coin-operated president um what's the most of your worries oh the tech guys the tech guys i would say everybody should be or just billy wealth wealthy people in general of a homogeneous nature controlling all of our faiths.
47:12Kara Swisher:That seems to be a prescription. I mean, on the funny side, it could be like Barry Diller once said, was talking about Hollywood and he said, they're so inbred, it's a miracle their children have teeth, which I thought was, I love that guy. That's someone I've been very nice to. And I know he's a tough son of a bitch, but I don't give a fuck. He's so into amusing. And today it's, he looks like a delight um but i do think they do not have our interests at heart and i worry that they have too much and i think we're going to get to a point where they're so rich um it just will not end well how it is and it never has but now i mean never ended well with the in the gilded age but the gilded age people only had the railroads which were critical but not everything like they have everything and they have everything that worries me and especially when they have proven themselves to be selfish pricks most of the time.
48:03Well, parting words. Except Mark Cuban. Except Mark Cuban. Kara Swisher, thank you so much. Please don't go, Mark.
48:10Kara Swisher:It's like the invasion of the fucking body snatchers. If you go, I don't know what I'm going to do. Anyway, we'll see.
48:24This show is produced by Jessica Alpert with help from Adriana Tapia and Sam Egan Sound design, mix, and original music by Pran Bandy Kate Osborne is our executive producer Condé Nast head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon And I am, of course, your host Katie Drummond, Wired's Global Editorial Director
48:46Thank you.
49:16Daniel Roseberry, and Jonathan Anderson. On Thursdays, join Head of Editorial Content at Vogue, Chloe Mal, and Head of Editorial Content at British Vogue, Chomenadi, as they explore style and culture through the lens of fashion with guests like Martha Stewart, Kamala Harris, and Tracee Ellis Ross. The Run Through with Vogue, new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.
49:46ERX.
From the publisher
Katie catches up with fellow journalist and podcast host, Kara Swisher to talk about interviewing arrogant pricks, the power of negging and who would play her in a movie. And she tells Katie if she had to she would rather work for Sam Altman over Mark Zuckerberg.
Join WIRED’s best and brightest on Uncanny Valley as they dissect the collision of tech, politics, finance, and business, from Alexis Ohanian's newest tech venture to the effects of inaccurate information from artificial intelligence (AI) chatbots on social protests.
