Can Tech Get Rid of Bad Trips?

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2:48Co-host Regina G. Barber takes you on that journey. Follow NPR's shortwave podcasts and exercise your right to wonder. Hi, Boone. How you doing? Hey, Mike. How are you? Good. Welcome. This is your first appearance on Uncanny Valley, is it not? It is. It's really nice to be back in the studio. It's good to have you. Good to be here. You're filling in for Lauren this week. She is out meeting the Pope or eating pasta or something. I can't really remember exactly what she's doing over there. But this week, we're going to dive into a subject that I know that you and I are always curious about, and that is the subject of drugs.

3:24I'm peaking right now, Mike. Well, before you start getting really sweaty and anxious, we do have to introduce our guest, Wired's senior culture editor, Manisha Krishnan. Hey, Manisha, welcome back onto the show. Hi, guys. Excited to talk about drugs, my favorite topic. Let's get into it.

3:45This is Wired's Uncanny Valley, a show about the people, power, and influence of Silicon Valley. Today, we're talking about drugs and all the ways they're changing as they continue to be intertwined with tech, and we continue to enjoy them. From teenagers reviving the Benadryl TikTok challenge, to more people than ever signing up for an out-of-body experience program previously used by the CIA, some people are chasing unconventional trips, bad trips, essentially. And then there's the AI companies who are looking to create a cleaner trip for users, or those who are using AI chatbots to therapeutically guide their psychedelic trips.

4:21We'll dive into some of these trends and why behind the weirdness of some of these methods, there is a real appeal that says a lot about the moment we're in culturally and technologically. I'm Michael Kalori, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture. I'm Boone Ashworth, staff writer on the Gear Desk. And I'm Manisha Krishnan, senior culture editor.

4:44So let's start with one of the stranger methods for substance consumption that Wired has reported on recently. And believe me, we have reported on dozens of strange methods for substance consumption. This one is probably, I think, the strangest, at least of 2025. It is the revival of the trend of teenagers and young adults taking a ton of Benadryl to get high. I use the word high loosely. Manisha, can you please explain this to us? So this story kind of made me sad, to be honest, but essentially there's a Benadryl challenge that blew up in 2020 on TikTok, and it involved young people taking at least a dozen Benadryl pills at a time and then challenging other people to do the same.

5:27But what I didn't know is that when you take a lot of Benadryl in high doses, the active ingredient in it, diphenhydramine, is actually a deliriant, which is a hallucinogenic. But unlike other psychedelics, it's not fun. It basically causes creepy sensations like tingling, disturbing and scary hallucinations, a brutal numbness, a dulling of the mind. So it kind of just sounds like a dark, bad trip every single time. Manisha, I have to ask you about the Hat Man. Some of the users of this Benadryl challenge, the descriptions on Reddit of the experience say things like, basically puts you in the Silent Hill dimension for a few hours.

6:11You feel physically awful and sick and is generally a very dirty high. I recall my whole body feeling like I had bugs in my skin and I couldn't stop itching. I also have seen shadows and bugs and spiders on my walls. what's not to love? No, it is weird. It's like the hat man is this recurring vision that a lot of users who take high doses of Benadryl see. And it almost is like this shadowy figure that's in the room with them. As someone who has sleep paralysis, it kind of reminds me of like, there's a demon that appears, that's known to appear when you have sleep paralysis. But it kind of reminds me of that, where a lot of people describe having the same scary vision appear.

6:57Okay, so is that something where like people have seen the hat man and then talked about it and described it and then other people take Benadryl knowing that if they take a dozen of them, they will see the hat man. And since they've been offered a description of the hat man, they see the same thing that everybody else is seeing? Yeah, so like I don't know what the scientific explanation is for why people are seeing a shadowy hat man. But from our reporter who did this story, he said that basically sometimes what happens is whatever you're anticipating that's scary comes to life when you're tripping.

7:33And so the hat man is a meme at this point. Like there are t-shirts with the Benadryl hat man on them. So I feel like it might be one of those things where people are anticipating it. The hat man has merch? He does. Oh, boy. There's a similar thing with DMT, right? I've never done DMT, but I hear that when you take it, you see gnomes. They're generally kind of friendly. I think they're wearing hats, but that's like a shared phenomenon. And it's kind of not sure if it's something you would naturally see or if people know about it because, like you said, they just know about it from the culture.

8:06Sure. A lot of hat visions in the drug world, apparently. Well, the experience of taking high doses of Benadryl sounds pretty miserable. So usually we associate people taking drugs with positive effects and people are doing this knowing that it has these negative effects, the creepy crawlies, the visions, the dark places. So why are people doing it then? Like why do these people go out chasing a bad trip? From our reporting, the people that we talked to, it kind of seems to be a wider part of this nihilism culture that's being embraced by young people. It's also very cheap. You know, young people are not doing too well financially, a lot of them.

8:47So it's cheaper than alcohol. It's cheaper than probably a lot of other drugs. And it just kind of brings on this numbness. And I guess for some people, that is the point. And some people have even described it as a form of self-harm. There's definitely an element of anxiety and depression in that, right? I can say as somebody who has taken medication for depression before, I would definitely recommend the doctor prescribed stuff. But you're very right about the nihilism and the constant feeling of awfulness. And just to feel nothing for a bit, there's a kind of weird appeal to that, even if it is just full of spiders.

9:24Yeah. Yeah, that's what some people essentially said is that if I'm focusing on these creepy crawlies on my eyelids right now, I'm not thinking about whatever it is that's bothering me in the real world. Bad trips aside, these trends obviously have real repercussions. Back in 2020, three Texas teens were treated for Benadryl overdoses. One of them was just 14 years old and took 14 pills. The 14-year-old recovered and returned home the next day, but that same year, a 15-year-old died from a seizure after overdosing on Benadryl in Oklahoma. Since then, the number of overdose cases from Benadryl has climbed to the point where there are thousands of overdoses a year.

10:04So, Manisha, knowing that you have followed drug and health policy in your reporting career, what are the common factors that lead to these dramatic increases in use? And what types of strategies actually work to mitigate harm? Yeah, so I just want to start with the term overdose because it is a very scary word, but you can overdose on basically anything. Like you can overdose on weed gummies, and usually it just means you get really hungry and maybe you're a little bit paranoid for a few hours. So it's not like all of these kids are falling deathly ill from taking too much Benadryl. But it's an interesting time because young people have moved away from drinking.

10:44I think there's also data that shows that they are kind of doing fewer drugs than maybe past generations. But at the same time, I don't think there's an easy fix to trends like this. I think that there's probably a lot of isolation and loneliness that factors into trends like this, as well as economic disenfranchisement, which is where sort of the cheapness of this drug, this sort of like backdoor psychedelic trend comes into play. And then, of course, you have everything being exacerbated by the Internet and these things becoming framed as like a fun challenge. So what strategies can work to mitigate harm?

11:24Always realistic drug information, like telling kids that smoking weed is going to kill them, is not smart because everyone has access to better information these days. But I think there's a lot of systemic factors that go into this that, you know, it's really, I think, about connection and making sure that people actually have access to fun opportunities. Okay, so Manisha, maybe this isn't Tide Pods, but there is an element of challenge of it, right? Like, it's a TikTok challenge. People are talking about it online. What roles do tech companies have over this content and how it's moderated? I do think that the virality of these things, it presents it as something that's fun.

12:06And I think that takes the dangerousness element out of it, especially if you are a young person. Tech companies absolutely have to play a role in moderating this. And I think it also goes back to parents having to be aware of what their kids are consuming. All right. Well, let's move on to another consciousness-altering trend. This one was reported by Wired contributor Maytha Busby, and it's about a psychedelic meditation program that was developed by the Monroe Institute, and it's been around for decades. Manisha, this story also came across your desk. Can you tell us a bit about it? Yes. So their method is based on what's called the Gateway Tapes, and this is a set of guided meditations that are intended to help people reach new planes of consciousness.

12:56And specifically, it's meant to help you sort of have out-of-body experiences. So this method was created by radio broadcasting executive Robert Monroe back in the 70s. Today, one consciousness content creator described the Monroe Institute as an American Hogwarts. And they sort of have launched all of these virtual and in-person retreats to sort of help people try this method and potentially have out-of-body experiences. They've even got Spotify playlists to help you sort of do self-hypnosis. How do you do self-hypnosis with a Spotify playlist? The method to these tapes is something called binaural beats.

13:37And that's when you're listening to beats, each ear is hearing a different tone. And what it's supposed to do is make your brain create a third tone on its own. I mean, binaural beats are as old as time, I feel like. And there's been tapes and CDs. There was even like a radio show where I went to college where somebody would just play binaural beats for an hour, like 5 a.m. to 6 a.m. or something. The ultimate DJ set. Yeah, basically. Vinisha, you said that it was described as an American Hogwarts by a consciousness content creator. Can we just stop for a second? Can I ask what a consciousness content creator is?

14:13I know. As soon as I said that, I was like, I can't believe this is a real thing. I guess it's just like there is like a content creator for every niche at this point. And I guess there are people who are out there who are trying to help people achieve new types of higher consciousness. And this is one of those people. Right. Rad. Well, our producer chased down one of these tapes from the Monroe Institute and has a clip ready for a listen if you're both game. The purpose of this exercise is to assist you in the lift-out procedure. The intent is not to travel far off, but to remain in close proximity to the physical body in Locale 1.

14:56First, your energy conversion box. Place any worries or concerns in this box, for they will only get in the way of this exercise. Second, resonant tuning. followed by your affirmation, I am more than my physical body. Then move to focus 10 and I will join you there.

15:32Okay. There's a lot of lingo. You know, I had a lot of coffee today And that actually really helped. It did kind of calm me down a little bit. But yeah, I was honestly struggling to follow his instruction because of the jargon he was using. Yeah. So the lift out procedure, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the Monroe Institute's big thing. The thing that they teach through their meditative practices in these tapes is out of body experiences. So you can actually like leave your corporeal form and hover and watch yourself meditate. That sounds dope. And examine the world around you from a different perspective.

16:15Yeah, that sounds very useful, actually. It's kind of like a mirror, but right above you. Yeah. Yes, exactly. More than just the sounds. So it's the people who are enrolling in this program and why, right? Like their participant pool has really increased since 2022, I think. military service people, psychonauts, meditators. It kind of surprised me to read that the military's involvement with the Institute goes way back. So what's the story there? So in the early 1980s during the Cold War and fears that Soviets had a psychic warfare edge, the CIA and the Department of Defense sent U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Wayne McDonnell to the Monroe Institute to see if this method could be useful for defense purposes.

16:57So essentially to see if he could do remote viewing, which you could see why the military would want to be able to leave their bodies and spy. And so he wrote a report and he said that there is a sound and rational basis to some of their methods in terms of physical science parameters for considering the gateway to be plausible in terms of its essential objectives. But about manifestation, he said, since our consciousness is the source of all reality, our thoughts have the power to influence the development of reality in time-space, if those thoughts can be projected with adequate intensity. Our thoughts have the power to influence the development of reality in time-space.

17:46Isn't this the minusteric goats thing? Yes, yes, it actually is. Okay, all right. Yeah, that's funny you said that. I was thinking of Oprah and like The Secret. Oh, yeah. In terms of manifestation. You're going to buy that book for that to work, though. Yeah, I mean, we're joking about it. And obviously, I think all three of us are pretty skeptical that the methods are things that actually lead to out-of-body experiences. But there are many people who I'm sure have enrolled in the program and found it to be useful. But what do we make of its rising popularity now? The Monroe Institute is something that's been around for decades.

18:22meditation, out-of-body experiences have been around for a really long time, but there's a resurgence now. So what do we make of its rising popularity? It feels like every decade, every generation has its own collective spirituality crisis. And I just wonder if that's what's going on here. I do think it fits into broader wellness culture. I think that, I mean, even yesterday I was at this tech store and they put me in something called The Hum. And it's just like a giant rock kind of loosely shaped like someone meditating. And you go in, you get covered in blankets, they cover your eyes, they put earphones on you, and it's like a five-minute trip.

19:03And so basically, you feel the vibrations while you're listening to these beats. And they described it as just being sort of like a shortcut to maybe even having some sort of a psychedelic experience without the psychedelics. So I just think this whole thing is very popular right now. And I think part of it is we're all so busy. Capitalism is kind of a hellhole right now. And I feel like people are just searching for something and maybe they want a little bit of a quick fix. You know, if I listen to this hypnosis program, it's going to open my mind in two weeks or whatever for 800 bucks or whatever it is, you know?

19:42Yeah. I feel like the meditation aspect of it is really interesting. I'm somebody who's always tried to meditate and just don't have the patience for it and just haven't had anything that pulls me into being able to sit there that long. So if this is what does it, I mean, if you overdo anything, you're going to be kind of a wacko. But if this is what gets you into it, I mean, maybe I want to go to section 10. Yeah, I think you belong there. Just make sure you leave everything in the consciousness box. Yeah, I'll do my best when I'm looking down at my body. Okay. Let's take a quick break and we'll come right back.

20:24This week on the political scene from The New Yorker, Trump's rupture in the world order. Europe caught between two adversarial great powers. That's basically dialing back the clock to not only pre-World War II, but really it's a pre-20th century view of the world. And I would say it's a world of permanent insecurity that we're looking at. Join me, Evan Osnos, and my colleagues Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser every Friday on The Political Scene, available wherever you get your podcasts.

21:03Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. So Manisha and Boone, we have been talking about psychedelic drugs and consciousness-altering experiences. But now I would love for us to dig into other ways that the tech industry is shaping these human endeavors. So for one, there's a startup like Mindstate Design Labs, which is a Silicon Valley startup backed by the buzzy incubator Y Combinator that has created, quote, the least psychedelic psychedelic that is psychoactive, unquote. Basically, the company is using AI to help design psychedelic-like drugs that induce specific mental states that deliver the benefits of psychedelics without the hallucinations.

21:47So MindState's approach is based on the idea that the psychedelic trip might not be necessary for the therapeutic benefit. Psychedelics work on the brain's serotonin system by promoting neuroplasticity, which involves the growth of neurons and the formulation of new connections. And some researchers believe that this ability to stimulate neuroplasticity, rather than the hallucinogenic effects and the colors and the visions and the sounds, that that ability to stimulate neuroplasticity is the key to treating mental illness. Our colleague Emily Mullen reported earlier this year on the company's first compound and that it looks very promising.

22:23And I'm just curious what you make of this, the trip without the trip. So I think this is really interesting. First of all, a lot of people who sort of work in the psychedelics space would say that there's no such thing as a bad trip, that a bad trip is something that ultimately you can work through and come out the other side and that that work is actually helpful to someone. But, you know, when I think of somebody like my mom or maybe somebody who just doesn't have a lot of experience with drugs at all and maybe is a bit nervous but wants to gain some of those benefits, I think that a trip without the extreme ups and downs could be a practical and good thing.

23:08So I'm just very intrigued to sort of see where this goes. And do we actually need that trip for it to be effective? I think also this sort of thing is going to be really good for people who go to festivals. I'm sure they will love this. In Emily's story, they talked about people with psychoactive issues or things like schizophrenia who probably should not be doing like LSD, for instance. If this is something that is potentially more usable for them, that could be great. I do think there's an element of it being scary, of the potential for there being a bag trip for people to take it a little bit more seriously.

23:44because especially, you know, if you've been there, if you've like gone through that and had that experience, I mean, they might say there's no bad trip, but you might not want to redo that anytime soon. And I know that that is like a big barrier to people to have a psychedelic experience is they don't want the frightening part. They don't want to be in a position where all of a sudden they're like confronting their darkest fears. And yes, there is a good reason to confront all of your darkest fears, but also they're missing out on any possible benefits. So if this drug actually works the way it's intended to, then it might be a good way to get people into that type of therapeutic environment who would otherwise not step into that space themselves.

24:23I mean, there's all kinds of drugs that do all sorts of different things, right? Maybe you don't need one that gives you ego death. Maybe you want that to have the choice. There you go. So it's not just startups trying to leverage AI into better, quote unquote, cleaner drugs. People are also using AI chatbots alongside drugs for therapeutic purposes And probably the best example of this is people using ChatGPT or Claude as a guide through a psychedelic trip. So the chatbot becomes the trip sitter. Manisha, please tell me that you have fired up ChatGPT and used it as a trip sitter. I actually do want to get its advice just to see how bad it is.

25:04So the thing is, psychedelics are still largely illegal in the U.S. outside of Oregon, Colorado. and even to the extent that we do have psychedelic therapy, like for example, in Oregon, where you can sort of pay and go to a facility and do shrooms, the sitters that they have there are very expensive. And so I can see why you would maybe turn to chat GBT. Also, it's just, you know, when someone's on drugs, I think sometimes it's just nice probably to have someone there to talk to, even if it is a chatbot. But I think where it gets hairy is if you're actually relying on it for advice, even around dosing and things like that.