How to Not Die in Silicon Valley

0:00Hey, everyone. It's Lauren. We're taking a little break this week, but we wanted to re-share an episode with you from the early days of Uncanny Valley. This episode is all about how some folks in Silicon Valley have been funneling their time and money into extreme longevity or health optimization tech. You probably already know a little bit about Brian Johnson and his unusual biohacking regime and his personal quest to live forever. And we talk about that in the episode, but this is a trend that started way before Brian and extends far beyond him. And in In a lot of ways, this whole trend is the ultimate reflection of Silicon Valley's obsession with optimization.

0:41It's a really fun episode. Things get weird, and we hope that you enjoy it. We'll be back next week with another new episode. I would like to start by learning a little bit about your morning routines. What is the most Silicon Valley thing about your morning routine? Zoe, you go first. Pretty much the first thing I do, it depends on where I am in my tech detox cycle. I either grab my phone and start furiously scrolling or I try and meditate. One of the two. Do you use an app to meditate? Yeah, I use Insight Timer sometimes. That's pretty Silicon Valley. Lauren, what about you? I sometimes walk up the hill that I live on.

1:23That sounds like a song lyric. But sometimes I do that thing where I face east to try to get the natural sunlight as the day is rising because that's the thing that a lot of health and wellness gurus talk about. Not sure that's Silicon Valley either, but I hear this on podcasts. Yeah. What about you, Mike? I would say my sunrise alarm clock that glows at like 6 a.m. every morning, it just very slowly turns from like dark orange to a soft sunlight tone. And it's really helpful when the time changes because for me, the sun always comes up at exactly the same time every morning. So it helps me optimize my morning.

2:05And you never oversleep? No, it always wakes me up. It's kind of amazing. I have hacked my brain into waking up with it. And you said optimize and hack. So you're the most Silicon Valley of us all.

2:21This is Wired's Uncanny Valley, a show about the people, power, and influence of Silicon Valley. I'm Michael Kalori, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture here at Wired. And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a Senior Writer at Wired. I'm Zoe Schiffer, Wired's Director of Business and Industry. Today on the show, why are millionaires and billionaires in Silicon Valley so obsessed with living forever? We look at the CEOs and the venture capitalists going all in on the race to beat death. They're hacking their bodies. They're hacking their diets. They're trying to look and feel younger and live longer. So we ask, what does it mean for the rest of us?

3:06We're going to start today with one of the most overt Silicon Valley characters trying to beat death. And that is Brian Johnson. Brian with a Y, Johnson with a J. Zoe, you're the expert here. Who is Brian Johnson? He's certainly not a household name, but he is kind of the most prominent player in this space right now. He grew up Mormon and founded the payments processing company Braintree. And he ends up stepping down as CEO, but then Braintree goes on to be acquired by PayPal for like$800 million. And Johnson walks away with about$300 million to$400 million, so not bad. But during this time period, he realizes that he's pretty unhealthy and he takes stock of his life and feels like he's kind of depressed.

3:56He struggled with his weight as a kid, too. And so he becomes pretty obsessed with like health, wellness, fitness. And eventually this leads to an obsession with longevity and specifically with living forever. In the 21st century, the only objective we have is don't die. This leads us up to today, where he's spending, he says, around$2 million a year on efforts to live forever. And the efforts are slightly outlandish, a little crazy sounding. He's doing blood plasma exchanges with his 17-year-old son, his blood boy. He's taking around 100 supplements a day. He's engaging in penis shock therapy, which is pretty much what it sounds like, unfortunately.

4:44And it's all bundled up into this blueprint plan, which he calls an algorithm that can take better care of his physique than he can himself. And Mike could be yours for$333 a month plus a one-time sign-up fee. Not sponsored. Zoe, I love how you said, you know, penis shock therapy, exactly what it sounds like. What is this? Why? I'm so sorry to have to do this to you. I mean, he says he's trying to increase the time of his nighttime erections. And he also claims that it has worked. And his dick feels 15 years younger. So I guess we can take his word for it. I think, thanks for listening to this podcast, folks.

5:27We're done with this week's episode. We're all going to go take a cold ass shower. So I have to admit, in preparation for this episode, I went down the YouTube rabbit hole watching some of his videos. Zoe, I know you also stayed up very late one night reading his book, which is called Don't Die. But I will say he knows how to capture an audience with these strange videos about his diet and his blood plasma exchanges and other bizarre therapies. Like he comes across as pretty disarming in these videos. The only thing we can play is don't die. Don't kill each other. Don't ruin our biosphere. Don't ruin planet Earth.

6:12And don't underestimate aligning with AI. This is Brian Johnson being interviewed on the podcast, The Diary of a CEO. We have to figure out how all intelligence on this planet cooperates. Humans and the planet, artificial intelligence. It's this big tapestry of goal alignment, of cooperation. I think the big question we have is how much of this is bunk? Well, you know, there's a long history in Silicon Valley of trying to prolong life and biohack your way towards longevity and fitness, I guess, is probably the best way to put it. But what are we talking about when we talk about, quote unquote, Silicon Valley trying to live longer?

6:52Yeah, this goes back long before Brian Johnson. Like a lot of the trends that we see in the Valley, I think some of this stems from Google or Googlers. Google has been investing in anti-aging research since at least 2013. It started this secret project called Calico that was once referred to as the Bell Labs of Aging Research. That research reportedly didn't make much progress, but then Google also formed something called Verily, which was supposed to help our understanding and detection of diseases. And then there's also Sergey Brin, who is one of the Google co-founders. He's also kind of personally obsessed with these topics because at one point he learned he has a genetic mutation that puts him at a higher risk for Parkinson's disease.

7:36And he also used to be married to Ann Wojcicki, the founder of 23andMe, which played a big part in his genetic testing process. But I think we should also just make a quick distinction as we're talking about all of these trends. There's a distinction between investors putting money into combating disease and then becoming obsessed with anti-aging and living forever because the two are related, but aging is not considered a disease. It's a natural process. Just to quickly go back to that earlier point, these people may also be cold plunging or taking human growth hormones or have quote-unquote blood boys, but a lot of their financial interests lie in disease prevention.

8:17Right. Okay, so if we separate those two things into buckets, and we put the stuff that benefits, you know, society as a whole in one bucket, and then we put all the stuff that is like, I'm rich and I want to live forever in the other bucket. What are we talking about in that bucket? What are some of the experiments and companies that we have our eyes on? Well, it's not really clear what the distinction is in a lot of these cases, because some of these efforts are just so far-fetched that we haven't even seen what bucket they fall into yet. I think Jeff Bezos is a good example here. He's funding Altos Labs, the company pursuing biological reprogramming technology, which is a way to rejuvenate cells and could be used to extend the lives of humans eventually.

8:58That seems like one to keep our eyes on. Then there's also Peter Thiel, who I think is going to come up every so often on this podcast. So Teal is planning to use something called the Alcor Life Extension Foundation. I had to write that down and I'm reading from it. To freeze his corpse after he dies so that he can be revived later on. Just like Walt Disney. Did Disney do that? Yeah, Disney on ice. Oh my goodness. Oh my God. Once again, thank you for listening to this podcast. We're done. This is the conclusion of this episode. I know there was this Mother Jones article that said that a field team from a contractor was going to swoop in and replace Teal's blood with anticoagulants and then chemicals.

9:42And then he was going to be packed in ice and transferred and all of this stuff. So this is firmly in the longevity. Would you call it longevity if you're dying? I would call it a fucking national nightmare. Can you imagine anything scarier than having to live through one lifetime of Peter Thiel and then he dies and then he's resurrected and come? Oh, my God. And at that point, certainly don't resurrect me. I've lived through one, so I don't want to do it again. So, I mean, this goes back to what Zoe said about some of these are very, they're very outlandish. And some of these people are channeling their efforts into their offspring too, right?

10:19Zoe, talk about that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's kind of like if you yourself can't live forever, then like certainly your bloodline must live on. And one of these people is Sam Altman. And, you know, this is an interesting investment. He's poured money into a biotech company called Conception, which is basically trying to see if you can create like human egg cells from stem cells. So in theory, this would mean that two men would be able to procreate. Right. And also TBD within our new incoming administration as to whether or not such advanced reproductive options will be available to people. Right.

10:54We should also talk about Orchid in that vein because that's a company that's been getting some attention here in Silicon Valley. And in fact, at Wired, we did a big interview with the founder of Orchid, Noor Siddiqui. So she started this genetic testing company that has marketed the ability for customers to do some really advanced screening on embryos. 23andMe is Anne Wojcicki, who has invested in the company. So has Brian Armstrong, the CEO of Coinbase. And then reportedly Elon Musk and Siobhan Zilis, who is a former Neuralink executive who then became a parent to Elon Musk's, how many children, Zoe?

11:32I believe three. We believe three. Apparently they used ORCID. That's been a little bit controversial because of the level of testing that it does. supposedly there's the opportunity for it to do extensive testing on things like neurodevelopmental disorders, severe obesity, certain psychiatric conditions. And so the idea is, wouldn't it be great for parents to have access to more information about the health of their embryos, but it could devolve quickly into something that feels a lot like eugenics. Yeah, it's so interesting too, because I feel like there's such an assumption baked into that type of testing on what makes a good life, not to get too esoteric on our podcast, but like, it really is this assumption that being kind of, quote unquote, like healthy and normal in a traditional sense is really important to like lead the best life possible.

12:23And I'm just not personally convinced that that's the case. And what it also potentially does, since we're talking about lifespan, means that you are in a sense dictating what the potential lifespan of your future child will be. Yeah. You're playing God.

12:41We have just gone over what all of the millionaires and the billionaires are doing, what they're investing in, what they're interested in. What about the scientists? Who are the scientists in Silicon Valley who are really at the forefront of this longevity movement? Do you mean scientists or podcasters? Lauren, how dare you? Am I guessing there's some overlap here? Yes. Is that what you're saying? Yes, we have come to the point in the episode where I gleefully get to talk about Andrew Huberman, who's a neuroscientist turned podcast host, has a very popular podcast called the Huberman Lab Podcast.

13:20Basically, his podcast kind of focuses on wellness hacks, science-based wellness hacks, things like cold plunges, different supplements to take, mindfulness techniques, things that are intended to increase people's overall well -being. And he's become kind of a celebrity in his own right and the subject of some reporting, which, Lauren, I know you have some thoughts on. Yeah, so there was this feature article in New York Magazine earlier this year that had some revelations about Andrew Huberman's personal life, mostly that he was dating multiple women at once who were not aware of each other, and many of them felt harmed by that experience.

14:01He was also using very therapized language with them to sort of show what an evolved man he was. The most interesting part was that despite the fact that his podcast is called Huberman Lab, and he is in fact a neuroscientist working at Stanford University, he was living in Southern California, and the article suggested that his lab might not even be a very active lab. So have all of these revelations changed how you feel about him? There's my opinion, and then I'll just say that I think that his fans still really generally like Huberman. I see. Okay. But yes, what do you make of it, Zoe? Because Zoe, I know that you were on the Huberman train for a while.

14:41You were like cold plunging and stuff. I mean, I'm not going to call you out for staring at the sun every morning, but I will say that's a classic Huberman right there. A classic Huberman. I mean, for sure, face east as Andrew Huberman speak for touch grass. Like, that's a huge thing that he promotes. I mean, I did get on the train and I really honestly liked his podcast. I'm also someone who like does really like a good wellness hack. I have a cold plunge and a sauna in my backyard. So suffice to say that I am a Huberman head, if you will. I did stop listening to the podcast around the time the magazine article came out.

15:16It was a little hard to stomach after that. If you're doing the Andrew Huberman stuff like cold plunges and facing east and taking care of yourself and actually like maybe, you know, eating better, making better decisions around sleep, using technology or using sort of biohacking methods to optimize those things, that's not necessarily bad because that is – that's like – those can grow into good habits. Those can be things that feel sustainable. It's the other stuff that we have to be more critical about, like the efforts to live forever that do not feel sustainable. Yeah, and to Mike's point, there's also this interesting distinction on like, are you making small tweaks that might be uncomfortable in the moment?

15:59Like a cold plunge can be uncomfortable, but they make your current life more enjoyable. You have more energy right now. Or are you really like delaying gratification altogether on the hopes that you can live forever? Because like that to me doesn't sound like a life I'd want to live. It kind of is banking on this idea that he'll live in perpetuity and maybe later he can have more fun. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that we are not diluting ourselves either when we make these small tweaks to our lifestyles or our habits in order to try to live a healthier life. We're not also thinking, oh, I'm going to live forever or I'm even going to live to be 100.

16:36we're fully aware of the reality of where we're headed. And we're not such power mongers that we think we can control it. And that's to me why Brian Johnson is so fascinating. Because, you know, part of his script is trying to make his day-to-day life better. But also part of his script is immortality. And he wants to live forever. It's like he's attacking the problem from both sides. I mean, didn't he literally host dinners called Don't Die? Yeah, the dinners are a really interesting crossover between the tech elite and the Hollywood elite. Kim Kardashian was actually at one of the dinners recently, as was Andrew Huberman, hilariously.

17:11At the dinners, in addition to talking about kind of the outlandish longevity techniques that Brian Johnson is trying, he also poses this question, he says, to his guests. And the question is, if you had access to an algorithm that could give you the best physical, mental, and spiritual health of your entire life, but in exchange for access to that algorithm, you'd have to go to bed when it said exercise, when it said presumably eat what it said, would you say yes or no? And then everyone goes around and gives their answer. Would you say that is food for thought? Oh, my God. Okay, true story, though.

17:42We have had to end the podcast so many times. Yet again. There's a whole other segment to come, folks. But true story, I know someone who went to one of those dinners, and they said that afterwards they had to eat a cheeseburger. Oh, my gosh, because they weren't satisfied with the dessert that's made with half a Brazil nut. I'm shocked. Yes, yes. It's like on those rare occasions, maybe, when one of us goes to a nice work dinner and then you're self-conscious during it or they're feeding morsels that afterwards you go home and you're like, I really want McDonald's. Okay, we need to take a break.

18:17But when we come back, we're going to keep talking about why Silicon Valley is so obsessed with living forever. And we're going to ask each other the don't die dinner question.

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19:05Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. All right. To get back into it, I want to pretend that the three of us are at one of Brian Johnson's Don't Die dinners. And he turns to us with those everlasting blue eyes. And he asks, if you had access to an algorithm that can give you the best physical, mental, and spiritual health of your life, but in exchange for access to the algorithm, you would have to go to bed when it's said. You would have to exercise the way that it's said. You have to eat what it said. Would you say yes or would you say no? Lauren. I have a very serious follow-up question. What's that?

19:41Would this be the Threads algorithm? Lauren? You just always have to sneak in shade for poor Threads. No, because this is all about control, right? It's excessive control over mind and body to achieve an outcome of quote-unquote living forever, which is not actually a guaranteed outcome. And also it sounds like a miserable way to live your life. Yeah, control is really interesting because honestly, it was a big part of the critique around Andrew Huberman that was cited in the New York Magazine article. Basically, the allegation was that he was trying to control the women that he dated. He was being pretty controlling of their behavior and what they did.

20:22It does seem like the mindset starts to spill over a little bit into other areas of your life and other people's lives. What do you think, Zoe? What are your thoughts on the algorithm guiding your life? Yeah, I'm with Lauren on this. I think there's like a lot of joy to be had in occasionally staying up too late, maybe imbibing a substance or two that you know will make you feel like trash the next day. I think that's kind of living. What about you, Mike? I'm fully on board with the both of you. I would say no, absolutely not. But I feel like if you're in that situation and you said no, then like the host and the other people around the table who feel the same way as the host would challenge you on it.

21:02And you would have to come up with this idea of like individuality being important. And I want to be able to make my own choices. And I am an autonomous human being in the world, right? Which is weird because you are accepting by saying yes to that question. By saying, yes, I'm surrendering to this algorithm that is going to optimize me. You are basically like reducing your ego in order to do so. Whereas if you are saying, no, I want to make my own decisions. I want to be autonomous. Then you are expressing your ego, right? Your ego is expanding to fill that. I don't philosophically agree with that.

21:42Okay. I think that if you surrender yourself to what your body, some elements of your environment, what your life path holds for you, you're not living according to an algorithm, then I think that demonstrates less ego. Yeah, that's interesting. And that actually gets to the point that I'm trying to work to, which is that all of these efforts to extend your life and to live forever and to use your resources to better your own life feels like they are driven by ego. Can we talk about the ego of it all? Can we talk about like, what is it particularly about these folks and how they live their lives and why they want to live forever?

22:24I mean, there's no doubt that there's ego behind this. I think that some of these entrepreneurs present what they're doing as altruistic. Like, if I can hack this or solve this for myself, then that's better for humanity. But why do they believe they are the people who should be able to live forever? You know, we mentioned Ann Wojcicki in 23andMe earlier, and I remembered that when I interviewed her for another podcast back in 2017, I asked her some version of this question, like, why is Silicon Valley so obsessed with hacking death? And she said, look, I think the reality is just that death is the reality for us.

22:57And she acknowledged that some of her peers might be unhappy with that statement, but, you know, it seems pretty grounded in reality. And she said, and I'm reading now, what everyone can agree on is that there are genes and then there's their environment. Your genes dictate a certain element, but you have huge variabilities in your environment. So if we can understand what variables are important, then maybe you can, you know, optimize those. But like at the end of the day, we're all going to die, right? So it does, I think, go back to control, but maybe we should be focusing on somewhat reasonably controlling the things that we actually can, like certain elements of our environment and lifestyle, and then seek out advancements and treatments that help target certain diseases versus attempting to control whether or not you can, you know, freeze your body and revive yourself later on or live to be 150 years old.

23:49Right. And again, there's that bridge between making yourself healthier in the day-to-day and then actually trying to extend your life beyond what your genes and your environment would naturally dictate. Mm-hmm. Yes. And I think that there's a certain hubris that comes with believing that, you know, that a non-biologist could come along and solve something in a timeframe that also results in a good ROI for their investors. Yeah. I do feel like we need to talk about the fact that many of the people that we're talking about are men who are in this camp of I want to live forever, right? We went through the whole list in the first segment and it was all dudes, wasn't it?

24:29Yeah, I mean, there are women involved. I don't want to erase them from this history because Anne Wojcicki, who Lauren was just talking about, is kind of in a related space. Nicole Shanahan, an attorney and most recently RFK Jr.'s running mate in the 2024 presidential campaign, has been very interested in longevity efforts for years and years. Nora Siddiqui, the founder of Orchid, is another one of them. But yeah, I mean, the loudest people in the space and the ones engaging in the most outlandish experiments, they do seem to be predominantly men. Well, there's also Elizabeth Holmes, but we know how that turned out.

25:02Right. The founder of Theranos, a medical diagnostic company that famously went under for fraud. Yep. And that's where the move fast break things ethos really goes wrong here. I mean, at the same time, that's some of the point of Silicon Valley getting involved in health and disease prevention and longevity. Like some of these entrepreneurs believe that they can speed up the drug development and testing process in a way that sometimes actually is positive. So what happens when you bring the concept of altruism into this, this idea that people working to live longer can make an impact on the world for the better?