Move Aside, Chatbots: AI Humanoids Are Here

0:01Hey, Kylie. How are you doing? Good. How are you? Not bad. Good to see you here in the chair that is normally occupied by Lauren Good. My lord and savior, Lauren Good. I'm so happy to fill in for her, but I miss her dearly. We all do. Also on the show this week, we have Will Knight, our AI expert at Wired. Welcome back to the show, Will. How are you doing? Hello. Good to be here. I'm doing well, thanks. So given the topic of today's episode, I want to ask you both, do you have a favorite robot movie? Yeah, mine is The Iron Giant. I was just looking up when that came out because I swear I watched it on VHS as a kid.

0:37Yeah, I loved that movie. And it's got a very sad ending. The robot, you know, is no longer. Oh, I guess we can probably spoil it. It's been decades. Yeah, it came out in 1999. I think it'll be okay. Will, what is your favorite robot movie?

0:51Will Knight:Okay, so I'm going to recommend Blade Runner, which is obviously a very famous movie and very beautiful. And when I first saw it, I just thought it was just really cool. And then I later read the book and realized that it's kind of ambiguous about whether some of the characters are robots or humans. And I found it mind-blowing, this idea of blurring what it means to be human and asking whether you can build something that's human, which I think we're a long way from, but it's a kind of interesting idea. That's great. I'm going to go with RoboCop. Nice. Which is the absolute opposite of The Iron Giant.

1:29But it's a great movie and it's timeless. It's a wonderful film. It's Paul Verhoeven going extremely hard in the 80s mode. And it's about, you know, the privatization of the police force and the corporatization of America's public services. So it's very prescient. Very classic Michael Pick. Thanks.

1:54This is Wired's Uncanny Valley, a show about the people, power, and influence of Silicon Valley. Today we're talking about how the field of robotics is shaping up to be the next frontier in the race towards artificial general intelligence, or AGI. Earlier this week, we learned that OpenAI is ramping up its efforts in robotics, specifically by hiring researchers who work on AI systems for humanoid robots. Humanoids, robots that were built to resemble us and perform daily tasks, were famous for their clumsiness just a few years ago. But as our colleague Will writes about, advancements in machine learning and hardware have renewed interest in humanoid technology, particularly within the AI industry.

2:35So we'll dive into what companies like OpenAI are hoping to gain by investing in robots, and what their decision means for how experts are thinking about what is really needed to achieve AGI, and what it might mean for us, the real humans, if that happens. I'm Michael Kolori, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture. I'm Kylie Robison, Senior Correspondent covering the business of AI.

2:58Will Knight:And I'm Will Knight, Senior Writer at Wired.

3:05So, Will, this is sort of an obvious question, but we have to start here. What exactly are we talking about when we talk about humanoid robots? How are they different from other robots?

3:15Will Knight:Yeah, I think it is a good question, really. The obvious answer is that they're shaped like a human, so they have legs, arms, heads, like we do. But the bigger point, really, and the reason why the industry is so interested in this is because they are designed to operate in the world that we live in, which is designed for humans. So, you know, going upstairs, sitting inside vehicles, anything a human could do that those machines could do. And when you're talking about kind of trying to build something that has human-like intelligence, if that's how you define AI, then a big element of that is being able to do things in the real world.

3:49Will Knight:So, you know, GPT is getting very, very good at advanced math, but it can't make you a cup of coffee. It couldn't come into your home and make a cup. Well, maybe it can, given what they're working on. Right. But that's the kind of idea. So as you've reported on Will and others at Wired have talked about, humanoid robots do not have the most stellar reputation. They're seen as sort of gimmicky. We've all seen videos of like the Boston Dynamics robot that dances. And that video on YouTube has over 40 million views. And as far as we know, based on what the company's put out there, that's about all they're good at.

4:22And at their worst, they're seen as unreliable at performing desired tasks. Like they fall over, they bump into each other. How is that perception changing right now? Yeah, so I remember going to the DARPA robotics challenge back in, I think it's 2012 when it first happened.

4:41Will Knight:And this was a really interesting idea after the Fukushima nuclear accident. They couldn't bring robots in to work in this really radioactive environment. So the idea was, can we develop robots that could go into that human environment? But back then, these humanoids, they moved unbelievably slowly. They just kept falling over, often in really comedic ways. And in the years since that, actually, a lot of what's happened is really the hardware has gotten better and better. And some key things like motors. So in order to move like a human, we think of robots as being sort of more capable than us.

5:13Will Knight:But you need to be able to move very, very quickly and very sort of explosively in order to do things like balance. That's what Boston Dynamics pioneered. And that kind of hardware has gotten a lot more available, which is why you're starting to see more humanoids come on the market. And now we know that OpenAI is very interested in humanoid robots. What did you recently learn from your reporting about the company? I've been following a lot of different labs working on robots. And humanoids is a really big theme because it allows you to kind of explore this human physical element of intelligence.

5:44Will Knight:and I discovered firstly that they were hiring people to work on humanoids. And then also if you look at the job listings they have and other sort of signals, you can see this picture where they're clearly ramping up their robotics work, which I think makes perfect sense given that a lot of other labs are doing that. A lot of other companies working on AI seem to be kind of looking towards this sort of physical side of intelligence now. Yeah, when I read the piece, my first thought was Jan LeCun's position where we're not going to reach AGI or, you know, AI that's smarter than all of us without that sort of physical intelligence bit, without it learning in the real world like any other carbon-based life form.

6:24And it's interesting that OpenAI is picking up their robotics work once again after they shuttered it back in 2021. You reported that they were doing pretty solid work on robotics, doing things like developing an algorithm, capable of solving a Rubik's Cube using a human-like hand. And now it seems like OpenAI is not just returning to robotics, but bringing that AI focus to it, exactly what Lacoon wanted. Back in February, OpenAI parted ways with Figure AI, a startup focused on creating humanoid robots. How do you think internal OpenAI initiatives can be competitive in comparison to companies that have been consistently developing humanoid robots?

7:00The whole time I'm thinking about the robot on meat hooks, I would be remiss if I did not mention the robot on meat hooks.

7:06Will Knight:Wait, what's the robot on meat hooks? The humanoid robot on meat hooks? I'm so shocked that you haven't seen this. Have you seen this, Michael? No. Oh, my God. Am I just to have like the most cursed algorithm on planet Earth? I really hope that the listeners know what I'm talking about and or should go search it up because it's the most horrifying thing. It almost feels like a gimmick. Will, do you know what this is? Did you just look it up? So often they have a humanoid on a chain so it doesn't fall over. Is it? It goes kind of berserk. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. And it loses it. Yes. And then it breaks because there was some problem in the algorithm.

7:38them and it yeah it goes berserk and it's horrifying but probably a good marketing stunt but i imagine opening eyes not going to have humanoids on meat hooks i mean if they're

7:47Will Knight:developing the hardware they probably will have them on something incredible so they don't break themselves if they fall over but i mean so they are going to be competing there with a lot of companies that are already putting you know videos of robots out there and stuff i mean the the advantages that they have is in the algorithms already right and they and large language models One of the sort of remarkable things about them is they have a surprising amount of understanding of the physical world. But to get to the sort of next step, whether they're developing hardware or just doing the algorithms, they're going to have to work on these systems that are better able to sort of really understand how to operate in the real world.

8:23Will Knight:So how to move limbs and do things like manipulation, which is one of the really big unsolved challenges. Yeah. And some of the big competitors we should talk about. Kylie, you just mentioned Figure. There's also Agility Robotics, Aptronic, some household names. Who are the ones that we should think about? Yeah, there are a sort of slew of companies doing humanoids now, and you'll see these videos on your social media. So Agility is one of the better known ones, Aptronics, Boston Dynamics, of course, has sort of pioneered this. Figure AI is very prominent with some of its demonstrations of videos.

8:56Will Knight:And of course, Tesla, you know, we're remiss not to mention that. And I think Tesla is going to be, you know, not just because of Elon, but because they are actually very steeped in developing AI for the physical world through their cars and also through the manufacturing that they do. Clearly, Elon seems to be sort of really focused on that now. I think they will be a sort of really prominent competitor. So we also mentioned Unitary, which is this Chinese company, which is now the biggest manufacturer of humanoid robots. I think they just filed for their IPO. And I got to see a bunch of their robots.

9:27Will Knight:They're really low cost. They're not super sophisticated, I think, but they're very low cost and very able to do things like this sort of dancing. I went to a conference in China where they had them doing boxing matches, punching each other and doing sort of Kung Fu, which is quite impressive. But yeah, there's a growing number of companies. I think Google is also doing some stuff with Aptronic, one of the U.S. firms. So it feels like the endgame for the AI companies is to create humanoid robots that can function in place of a human in like factory environments, in shipping and receiving and around the home, doing helpful tasks.

10:01The robotics companies have the same goals as well, right? They want to be able to sell a robot that can do this. But specifically with open AI, what are their primary motivations here outside of just the race for AGI?

10:14Will Knight:Well, I mean, I think one of the big things to mention is, you know, GPT-5, the latest model, which was meant to be a huge leap forward, kind of flopped. And I think they, like others, are looking for sort of the next big thing, the next direction in AI and developing a better understanding of the physical world, building world models, so-called world models, is going to be a very important thing for AI. I think that this could be very important for consumer hardware, like smart glasses or whatever hardware they're working on, because robots, by navigating the physical world, especially if they have digits like us, will interact with the same world that we do.

10:51Will Knight:So you do have the potential to build models that are going to have a much better understanding of the world you're walking through. So I think there could be a bunch of commercial sort of applications there as well. Yeah. And you previously brought up Elon Musk and something I'd heard in my reporting, and I reported a portion of this in my newsletter, is during a recent All Hands with X and XAI people, which are the companies he also owns. He said that Tesla and the humanoid robot from there, he said that that's their biggest advantage at XAI is having those robotics in the background, which is not something OpenAI has.

11:25They're building this from the ground up, which is notoriously hard, but the hype is very real. Just like with the AGI hype, now we've moved on to some sort of humanoid robot hype. And Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, recently told Bloomberg that people would soon be walking down the street and see like seven robots and walk past you doing things or whatever. It's going to feel very sci-fi. And you said that moment isn't very far away. And you reported in your piece that it's a$5 billion industry right now and could be worth$5 trillion by 2050. So what do you think of this hype? Is it warranted?

12:02Will Knight:Yeah, I think it is really hyped. And I think one of the problematic things with robots, you know, even compared to chat GPT and large language models, is you can do these demo videos that are really stunning. And people naturally think, oh, the robot can do incredible things if you see it, you know, making a drink or loading the dishwasher. But the thing is that often in those situations that might be teleoperated, it might only work one time out of 100. And so that is the reality right now. So getting these things to be super reliable in any environment, I think, is an enormous, enormous thing.

12:35Will Knight:I mean, just look at self-driving cars. We're sort of 20 years in, and they're just operating in some situations, some roads. And we're talking about something that's supposed to go into a completely unstructured human world. So I think it's a lot further off.

12:51Okay, that's a good place to take a break. We'll come right back.

13:03Hello, I'm Joseph Cox, host of the 404 Media Podcast. Every week, we break tech news you can't get anywhere else. That includes surveillance. This idea that Ring is going to zero out crime. It's not. AI. AI is going to stick around in some fashion. That doesn't mean that the vision that these companies are selling us is how it has to be. And big tech companies. This is a serious crime. It's being enabled by Apple and Google through the app stores. Our journalism is by humans for humans. Find the 404 Media Podcast wherever you listen and on YouTube too. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. So today we're talking about Silicon Valley's renewed interest in humanoid robots.

13:46And we just broke down why some AI players like OpenAI and its competitors are betting that these robots could be the key to achieving AGI. But human robots have also been billed for years and years as being the future aids that would help us in our daily tasks and in some cases take over our jobs for us. I want to know if that's still the promise. Like, if we are creating humanoid robots that can do the tasks of humans, how much further do we have to go for that to become actual reality?

14:16Will Knight:You know, there are a ton of robots that do work that humans do through the history of robotics. It's just been a case of expanding what they do from incredibly niche things. So, you know, like manufacturing robots do these very, very precise things, but have zero flexibility. We've started to see in recent decades more robots sort of expand what they can do. You see mobile robots that can sort of navigate very simple environments. And in the last few years, we've started to see even some humanoids being tested. So Amazon is invested in this company, Agility, which has a humanoid, and they've been testing it in some of their facilities, having it move boxes around.

14:49Will Knight:And so for a company like Amazon, you know, they have a really, really strong history of deploying robots in their e-commerce warehouses in really valuable and useful ways. And so what they're doing with these humanoids, I think, is exploring how they can slot in for humans in some situations. They have a very cyclical need for workers, right? And sometimes could a humanoid fit in and do just a simple thing like moving boxes from A to B? But always with robots, the case is how much sort of unstructured, unfamiliar stuff can you get those to do? And it's still limited, so you have to kind of narrow it down.

15:21Yeah, you already mentioned Amazon. And some of these companies say they want to address labor shortages in industries where more workers are needed. And my first thought, as we're talking about robots at Amazon, they don't have to pee in cups and unionize. So that's very nice for them, I suppose. Very good point. They need more workers in manufacturing, shipping, and logistics. The hope is that these humanoids will take over the more dangerous, less desirable jobs, too. Later this year, Boston Dynamics plans to put its all-electric humanoid robot Atlas to work in a Hyundai factory. The company already has a dog-like robot spot and a warehouse robot stretch.

16:00What a funny name. Nope. Which is already deployed industrial sites. The Hyundai Pilot will be the first time their humanoid is used in a commercial manufacturing setting. Yeah, and if you watch the videos and the promotional materials, go to the websites of these companies. all of them show robots on the factory floor. And they show them doing things like, you know, putting the bumper cover onto the bumper. Or taking boxes off of a pallet and organizing it onto shelf space based on like what's inside the box. Because they can scan it with their robot eyes, which sounds creepy, but that's also like how the world works now.

16:35Full band name, robot eyes. Indeed. But, you know, the thing that I think a lot of people think about when they think about humanoid robots is like the robot butler, right? And you do see that imagery in some of the promotional materials, like Figure AI, who we talked about. They have a video of their robot folding the laundry, watering the plants, putting the dog food into the dog food bowl. And I think about a future like that, where we have robots in our home as a lot further off from the manufacturing and the warehouse environments. And Will, I think you've hinted at this by talking about the unstructured reality of life that we live in.

17:12That's right.

17:12Will Knight:So, I mean, in any of those demos, right, you have to sort of ask, you know, how much programming, how much preparation did they have to do to have it fill the dog food bowl? And the thing that humans do is you go into an unfamiliar home and can you feed the dog and you have to figure out where the bowl is and you have to figure out how to pick it up, which is something that robots still struggle with. So anything that's sort of unstructured like that is going to be much more challenging. And I think it's really important to sort of bear in mind when you're seeing those demos that the implication is that it can do the sort of thing that a human does.

17:43Will Knight:But it's a lot more complicated to do that in the real world. This is why things like manufacturing and e-commerce are going to be much more the sort of environment that you'll see them come into first. And I think when you talk about how to program a robot, the old way of programming it would be you show it where the bowl is. You show it how to pick up the bowl. You show it where the dog food is and you show it where the bowl goes after it's full. But in the world of AI robotic programming, then there are all of those little micro decisions being made about grip and sensing touch and, you know, the angle that you're supposed to hold the box at so that the dog food can flow out of it.

18:17All of those things are variables that the robot is going to have to figure out on its own, which is probably where the machine intelligence aspect of it comes in. But it seems to me like when these companies are talking about, yeah, we're hiring these people to build these things out and turn them into these machines that we can use in our homes. Those are the sorts of targets that they're looking at, right? And I am thinking just about a decade ago, AI was figuring out whether a dog was a dog and a cat was a cat. And now we're at this point where can it even feed these animals? It's strange.