Trump Foe Mounts Competitive Senate Bid in Florida

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2:50From Wired, this is The Big Interview, where we get to know the people behind the headlines. in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power, and culture. I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global Editorial Director. Over the next few months ahead of the midterm elections, we've been talking to candidates in key races across the country. And there's a pretty interesting one happening in Florida. Retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Alex Vindman, a key witness in the first impeachment trial of President Trump, is running for one of the Sunshine State's Senate seats. That seat is the one formerly held by now Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

3:23and currently occupied by Republican Ashley Moody. To unseat her, Vindman will have to first win the Democratic primary in August. And if he does, he'll go up against a Republican in a state that President Trump won by more than 13 percentage points in 2024. Vindman was considered a long shot when he launched his Senate campaign in January. But a recent poll by Change Research shows him leading Moody. He's here now to explain why he believes he's the right person for the job. Welcome to The Big Interview, Alex.

3:52Alex Vindman:Thanks. Good to be here with you, Katie. So glad to have you here. So you are maybe best known on a national level as a whistleblower, but you were also and I'm going to list several things here and I want to make sure I get them right. You are a more than 20 year army veteran. You were honored with a purple heart after being wounded in Iraq and you were on the National Security Council. So I'm curious if you feel like your role in the first impeachment trial, first, I mean, embarrassing to even have to say that, of President Trump overshadows your work and your career. What would you like to be best known for if you could pick?

4:23Alex Vindman:I thought you were going to say that I was best known for my appearance on Curb Your Enthusiasm. A lot of folks seem to recognize me from there. Certainly, you know, the public knows me from that context. I didn't necessarily recognize the impact. I was sitting testifying in front of Congress. You know, I was the focus of the story, but I wasn't really, you know, a part of that story, at least not in my sense. I was just doing my job. But behind the scenes, a lot of folks knew me for having a pretty exceptional military career. I finally came to the U.S. in 1979. I was four years old. We were Jewish refugees that fled from the Soviet Union.

5:00Alex Vindman:Dad landed in the U.S. at the age of 47, hauled furniture to be able to provide for us boys. It was my older brother, my twin brother, a grandmother he didn't get along with. He was a primary caregiver because my mother passed away and worked my way up through there. Combat tours in Iraq, representing this nation in embassies in Kiev, Ukraine, Moscow, Russia, Pentagon Service, where I wrote the book on Russia, and then the White House and the National Security Council. That's what I was known for with regards to the professional channels. But the public obviously saw just a small sliver, a small snapshot of an army officer that was willing to speak up and do the right thing and damn the consequences because that's what I was trained to do.

5:44Alex Vindman:So if that's all they know about me, if they know that I'm a fighter for what's right, that I will call balls and strikes regardless of where the fault lies, then that's OK. That's not a bad place to be known for something. And I want to take our listeners and our viewers back in time a little bit because this was several years ago and not to dwell on that one moment, but that impeachment trial, that first one, you testified before Congress about a pivotal phone call between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky. This was back in 2019. And this is the call wherein Trump appears to pressure Zelensky to investigate the Bidens.

6:19Now, it has been several years and it has been arguably dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of scandals at the feet of President Trump. What you found so troubling about that call and why you felt compelled to come forward in that moment?

6:33Alex Vindman:So for me as a professional, I'd been serving on the National Security Council. Russia and Ukraine were already five years into a war. and what I'd witnessed was a scheme that would have undermined U.S. national security, would have driven, that looked like it was inspiring Russia to be even more aggressive. That's the way I perceived it and that's the fact that materialized just a few years later at the full-scale war in 2022. And I also witnessed what I thought was an effort to steal an election and it was not something that I could sit idly by. It was squarely in my area of responsibility. I had this large portfolio in a position of enormous responsibility, and I just did what I thought was right.

7:14Alex Vindman:It's the same thing that I trained my soldiers to do along the way. Don't walk by mistake. If you see something wrong, you've got to say something. You could make those corrections, even if it's up the chain of command, as long as you do it respectfully, and that your intent is to make sure that you're delivering on the mission. For me, was U.S. national security. So I don't look backwards and have any regrets. I think I modeled what I thought was good behavior for my fellow service members, for my daughter, who at the time was eight years old. And that chapter ended almost 22 years of military service.

7:50Alex Vindman:And I'm opening up a new chapter of service. After being forced out of the military, my wife was looking for a place to move to, to get away from politics. So we moved to Florida. You moved to Florida, a stronghold for the president. That's true. But it was also a good place for us. My best friend for my very first assignment in the military married a local in South Florida outside of Fort Lauderdale. We'd been going there for years. We had a natural network. We needed a better environment to raise our family. And it turned out to be an ideal setting for us. So much so that just a few months after we got there, I convinced my dad, a New Yorker that said he would never leave to move down.

8:28Alex Vindman:He's 10 minutes away from me and we're trying to live that wonderful Florida lifestyle, but watching things slip away because it's getting too expensive. Corruption is driving up costs. It is becoming increasingly unaffordable for folks on fixed income to survive in Florida. My daughter, who is 15 years old, ninth grader, she's got three years left. I want her to stay next to dad. So I'm trying to make sure that we build a Florida that's welcoming it to women, young women. That is a place that is affordable for young folks that are finishing up, whether they go into trades or university, that they could settle there and afford to have a good quality of life.

9:07Alex Vindman:A place where there are jobs. Unemployment in Florida is surging because of the decisions being made by this administration and Ashley Moody, my opponent, who was appointed to that role. But let me ask you, you spent more than two decades serving in the U.S. military. You testified in this impeachment trial. You know, anyone who speaks out against President Trump or sort of takes that sort of very public posture. I mean, you're up against harassment, death threats. You really went through the ringer. Your wife wanted to get away from politics. You moved to Florida. Yeah. Why run? It wasn't necessarily the easiest decision.

9:44Alex Vindman:My heart's been in public service my entire professional life. Served this country and postings around the world in combat. That was wounded by a roadside bomb and earned a Purple Heart and witnessed the costs of poor decisions and what that means with regards to loss of our true treasure, our troops. A squandering of billions of dollars in resources sounds very similar to what's going on today. I mean, I have to ask about how you're looking at the conflict in Iran at this moment. I know you've spoken out against it. I think it is a foolish distraction from taking care of the people of Florida.

10:20Alex Vindman:It is poorly executed. And what really troubles me is that my opponent, Ashley Moody, signed on to this war. She gave this administration a pass. Eight times a vote in support of this administration getting a free pass with no strategy and with deeply misprioritized with regards to what this administration should be working on for the American people, for the people of Florida. What does that mean, a free pass? What exactly did she vote for? She voted to block an authorization of the use of military force. And this is a power that Congress has to reign in an administration that's using force extra constitutionally, not in accordance with the laws.

10:58Alex Vindman:And she just gave him a free pass. To me, that's deeply disturbing. We just had Memorial Day and I was in Tampa attending a commemoration. We were commemorating the loss of soldiers in this war with regards to Iran. And I spoke about the soldiers and peers and friends that I lost during my combat tour. And I think that we need judicious, wise, thoughtful, and almost as important, independent thinkers. Not somebody that is there just to be a rubber stamp for power. That they're told by the administration to vote a particular way. Reliable vote. Unquestionable vote. That's what we have currently with regards to the state of Florida.

11:39And was there a moment? I mean, what was it that made you say, you know what, I'm doing it seven days a week? because we were talking before we turned the mics on that you take half a day off every couple weeks. And I said a five-day work week or a seven-day week, and you looked at me like I was crazy.

11:56Alex Vindman:Yeah. I think the week is a day, any day of the week is a day that ends in Y. But, you know, look, I think for me, we came to Florida and I was continuing to serve, in my view, I was continuing to serve this nation by helping get veterans elected as principled actors, working with a group that helped usher in the political careers of veterans that have sworn the same oath I have done to defend the Constitution of the United States against enemies, foreign and domestic, and act as principled leaders. And I think about in military terms, in the army terms, rather, we talk about this acronym leadership.

12:31Alex Vindman:There's an acronym for everything. Loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage as a measuring stick for your actions. So that was one way I was serving. Another way is I finished up a doctorate in international affairs from Johns Hopkins, wrote a second New York Times bestseller, lectured around the country to try to take a different approach with regards to the way we conduct ourselves around the world to secure the United States. But watching things unfold in Florida, it was a personal decision. My dad lives 10 minutes down the road. I'm paying for half of his rent in order for him to afford to be able to live there.

13:04Alex Vindman:Too many folks in Florida are struggling with the same decisions. My daughter, three years from now, she's going to make a decision about whether she wants to stay in Florida or move on. I want her to pick Florida. Same thing that too many families are struggling with, with young folks that are making the decision to move somewhere else because it's too expensive. The opportunities don't exist there. You're running in a state where President Trump won in 2024 by 13 percentage points. There is a very deeply entrenched GOP voter base in Florida. Democrats have found success in the past year, I would argue, by going harder left.

13:38Where do you identify on the ideological spectrum? Do you consider yourself a progressive? What labels do you apply to your politics?

13:45Alex Vindman:No labels. No labels. Running as a Democrat. I chafe against the idea of being pigeonholed in one spot or another. I am running as a Democrat, to be absolutely clear. No joke there. I think the important point that you made is that people are still to this day, and I see this because I'm out traveling the state extensively. I'm talking to folks around the country about why Florida is a race to watch and why we're going to win. And folks keep going back to what I think is ancient history. It is almost irrelevant at this point. November 2024, when Trump won by 13 points, that's not the reality today.

14:22Alex Vindman:That has not been the reality across the country. We've seen that in election after election, now emerging as a wave. We've seen it in Florida with two special elections where the margins were Democrats showing up in force, independents showing up and aggressively supporting Democratic candidates. What I'm seeing in less than the four months that we've had, we've done about 200 events. That's a seven day a week thing again. Yeah, we are out there. We're talking to thousands and thousands of people. We're not trapped in a Democratic bubble. We're talking to independents. We're talking to Republicans.

14:57Well, let me get specific here with you around some of the key issues in this race. You've talked a lot about cost and higher prices. How do you beat that back? If you're elected, how do you solve that for Floridians?

15:09Alex Vindman:There are two things I have to deliver. This is a special election for me. I've got two years to prove myself. Otherwise, I haven't earned the right to be reelected for a full six-year term. Two things are some guardrails and accountability, making sure that we have independent-minded leaders. I'm a veteran that served presidents of both parties that will make thoughtful, judicious decisions on how the executive branch is conducting itself. It's that whole co-equal branch of government. Congress has abrogated its responsibilities here. As soon as we institute some guardrails, take back control over, for instance, tariffs, which is in the power of Congress, we automatically chip away at a huge price factor for every single American family.

15:50Alex Vindman:It's funny. I think a lot of Americans have probably forgotten exactly what is within the purview of Congress to curtail because tariffs have felt like a Trump impulse. It is. And I think if we reassert our authorities there, it's a$2 ,500 tax break because the tariffs are tax. It's a$2 ,500 tax break to every single family in America. If we reassert our authorities over war powers, reigning in this administration that's used force on seven occasions, then we preclude what we were witnessing with regards to Iran, where over a very short period of time, over the course of weeks, price of gas has surged because we made some poor decisions about going to war without a strategy, without an exit strategy, without a thoughtful approach to the consequences of war, what we call in the military second and third order effects.

16:41Alex Vindman:the fact that you could look to attack Iran, but does that result in regime change? It hasn't. What it does result in is a closure of this very important piece of geography and a constraint on oil around the world and a surge in prices. And it's affecting everything. It's affecting grocery. It's affecting every single aspect of life for the people of Florida. I mentioned actually those things about checks and balances actually have a direct effect on costs. Tariffs is one. Avoiding other chaos and instability that drives up prices. But then we start looking at real solutions around, for instance, homeowners insurance.

17:18Alex Vindman:We have a national flood insurance program. We should be thinking about something similar with regards to homeowners insurance. Some way to buttress these big insurance companies to stay in markets like Florida, specifically in Florida, so they can compete against each other and drive down costs. You know, another major issue that Wired has spent a lot of time covering, particularly this year has been immigration and has been ICE. You have been vocal about ICE. I think it was in one of the first videos you produced as a candidate, if I recall correctly, actually included footage of Minnesota. What is your perspective, especially looking at the state of Florida specifically around immigration, ICE, and how to grapple with what has become, you know, really unwieldy, to say the least, situation across the country.

18:06I mean, it feels very sort of difficult to contemplate how you claw back some of the power that ICE has been bestowed, right?

18:16Alex Vindman:Actually, I don't think it's that hard. You think it's easy? Defund them? No, I don't think it's defunding them. I think it's the fact that the signals from this administration have been signals of impunity, signals that have driven escalation instead of de-escalation, broader powers than what has existed for ICE over the course of multiple administrations, Democratic and Republican, that they were there for immigration and customs enforcement. That is a very narrow set of tasks. And they've been given a much broader mandate. I think that... How would you like to see that agency operate? I think structural reforms that make sure that the folks are getting proper training.

18:56Alex Vindman:I think the ICE agents that have been there over the course of longer careers are probably disgusted. Oh, we've reported on some of them. They absolutely are. They're disgusted with the fact that there are untrained, unqualified ICE agents being brought into the force. Yeah. Folks with poor records, folks that don't have the proper temperament to be able to handle themselves with regards to populations. I think about my time in the military. And, you know, when we were in Iraq, we were operating amongst the civilian population with the intent of winning hearts and minds. Our folks were properly trained to de-escalate, to limit the use of force.

19:30Alex Vindman:not going in there to crack some skulls the way we see some of this happening, not there with face masks on to protect identity so that they could engage in abuses. So it's masks off, it's proper training, it's making sure that they're de-escalating in confrontations. That is the bare minimum. But we should also be clear that I think that both parties have utterly failed with regards to immigration reform and, frankly, border security. It is sovereign responsibility of a state to control its borders, to understand who's coming in, who's coming out, you know, the flows of populations to protect.

20:04Alex Vindman:It's a national security function. So we could have done better on this function across multiple different administrations. And we've utterly abrogated our responsibility for immigration and left millions of people in an untenable situation, whether that's DACA kids that came here with and ended up having a legal status that's then being kind of pulled out from under them. And I'm willing to tackle some of these issues that have been too hard because it's simply the right thing to do. We're seeing under this administration cruelty, deep insecurity brought into specific communities, minority communities, communities of color.

20:39Alex Vindman:And that is to me, it's un-American. And we need to put a stop to some of these actions and activities. What does meaningful, functional, strategic border control look like to you, given, in your view, so many administrations have failed to get this right? What does it look like to get it right? I think part of the solution is simply technological. That would allow us to be able to do just the basic nuts and bolts of monitoring. I think that we are missing the boat if we think just in the context of literally the border itself. The driver behind these issues is deep insecurity in different parts of Latin America and Central America.

21:22Alex Vindman:And unless we're figuring out some ways to attack the problems with regards to narco trafficking, instead of cutting programs for U.S. aid, figuring out how to do more to prohibit narco trafficking, understanding that there's also an economic component that these are migrant workers that are here for for temporary periods of time intent to go back home to support their families doing jobs that americans won't do there's a formula that allows us to account for that migrant workers folks that are coming here with asylum and that we need a rapid system to to make determinations not keeping people in limbo for for years and years not just blocking them at the border because that's the easiest thing to do, but something that is truly American and kind of speaks toward our soul as a country of immigrants.

22:09Alex Vindman:I think figuring out a way to navigate all of those different interests is critically important. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

22:29I want to move now to talk a little bit about technology. about artificial intelligence in particular. I mean, you would come into this role at a state level, sure, but with a great deal of national purview in a moment, at least for the next two years, to your point, where these are some mission-critical conversations and decisions that need to be made in this country, I would argue, about artificial intelligence. I'm curious in particular, given your background with the military and in national security contexts, how you were thinking about artificial intelligence, your thoughts, your concerns?