What’s the ‘Chicken Shop Date’ Creator’s Secret? Creative Control

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2:10From Wired, this is The Big Interview. where we'll get to know the people beyond the headlines in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power, and culture. I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global Editorial Director. You may have seen our next guest, Amelia de Moldenberg, on the red carpet at the Oscars in March. Here at the Oscars red carpet, what does it smell like? Sweat. And success. And success. What's the vibe? What's the energy like in the room? There's like sizzling energy. It's real. It's hot right now. I feel like we should not have done that because it's already so hot in here.

2:38I could start to feel the sweat dripping from my butt cheek down my leg. Thank God I'm wearing pants because otherwise people would be like, is she? Is she peeing us up right now? I'm like, yeah. That clip is from the Academy Awards and Amelia's creative studio, Dim's Inc. It was her third time on the Oscars red carpet. And that star turn comes on top of her wildly successful interview series that I first saw, admittedly, as very short clips on TikTok, Chicken Shop Date. If you haven't seen them yet, I don't know why, but you're in for a treat. Amelia sat down for dates with Conan O 'Brien, Sabrina Carpenter, Andrew Garfield.

3:09the list goes on, and each episode takes place in, yes, a chicken shop. Amelia now has more than 3.3 million subscribers on YouTube. And she joins me now. Amelia, welcome to the big interview. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. Sorry, that clip you played, I was like, wow, that is real boots-on-the-ground journalism right there. How did it feel to hear yourself back talking about butt sweat and pee? Well, it's interesting because that is definitely part of the genre of my interviews. However, there's so much more to them than that. There is. There is. So that's obviously just like one slice of it that's, I guess, a bit more playful.

3:47And I mean, they're all kind of, it's all playful in a way. But yeah, I guess I was cringing a bit. I'm sorry. I didn't pick that clip. So I'm going to blame the producers. Always blame the producers when you have the opportunity. But how do you actually get ready for those interviews? I mean, this was your third time doing the Oscars red carpet, which is, and I've been a journalist for a very long time. intimidating environment. How do you prep? I spend a good few months. Months? Yeah, like probably like two months. Obviously not every day, but you know, I'm thinking about it for like two months running up to the Oscars.

4:23And I am researching every single nominee, watching all of the movies. And me and my sister and our other writing partner, I write with my sister Zoe. We prepare questions, individual questions for every nominee that the Academy would like us to interview. So it's mainly all of the acting categories and directors and kind of beyond. And yeah, I think it's really important to prepare individual questions for each person because I think that's how you get a more interesting nuanced interview from someone rather than asking a general question to everyone. And I think the general question thing was what audiences were getting maybe tired of and I love thinking of questions for each person and thinking of ways in which you can speak about their films and their work in a way that is playful and unexpected but also kind of shows the level of research that I try and do.

5:16I love watching celebrity interviews I always have and I've loved being a consumer of pop culture like since I was very young. So it's a fun job for me to do the prep, but it definitely reminds me of when I was studying for my exams at school, cramming. And this year I had more time than ever. And so when I got to the carpet, my third year doing it, I felt really confident. I felt really good. I also loved my outfit. And I think all of those things really do make a difference because as you say, it's an intimidating environment. And when you're feeling good, 100 % it affects your performance. And I do really feel like I'm performing when I go on a red carpet.

5:52It feels to me like a bit of a stage and I kind of forget the cameras are there and I very much feel like I'm playing to the audience. How do you think about your role on that red carpet? And I'm curious about this in the context of the work that you do overall. This sort of creator journalism, I don't know if it's a debate. There's a distinction there that I think is becoming blurrier and blurrier. I don't have strongly held views about it. I mean, I talk to the Wired staff all the time, and I hope they don't mind me saying this on the podcast, but that they are so much more now talent than they used to be, and that they need to be on camera.

6:31They need to be behind a microphone. Like, they need to be making that direct connection with their audience, right, and sort of really taking, like, the quote-unquote creator playbook and taking that seriously and not being dismissive of that. But for you, when you're on the red carpet or you're sitting down in a chicken shop, whatever it is, how do you like self-identify? I feel like I am in the business of making entertainment. Yeah. And I think that is a distinction from from journalism in a way. You know, I study journalism. I have a degree in journalism, but I always feel like I've been more drawn to making something within the entertainment space.

7:06Yeah. And I think that a lot of creators that are like working the red carpets now I think that that's their approach too it's not necessarily that they're trying to get a scoop for example but they're trying to make something that's entertaining and and it does like people really connect with those interviews and obviously some are stronger than others like in any any situation but I think the first time I did the red carpet was maybe nearly five years ago now for the GQ Man of the Year Awards and I I remember at the time it being such an exciting moment because I don't think many like non-traditional talent had taken those roles.

7:42And I think since then, the space has become quite, I guess, oversaturated, but like how anything would. I guess it's always been important for me to make sure I stand out in a crowded space always. But yeah, I'm interested in creating a moment, something that people can connect to that kind of stands out online because, you know, there's so much content now. Yeah. A sea of it. So you really do have to be able to make your mark. And it's actually something that I've always been quite successful at doing. So I feel, but that's just through the pre-planning of it. like I watch so many interviews with with said talent that I'm meant to be interviewing to get a sense of their vibe their energy the type of personality that they are and therefore what kind of questions they would respond well to and I think it's through all of that that I'm able to like preempt the moment you know like for example Ethan Hawke my interview with him like went quite viral from the Oscars this year and that was because I spent a lot of time understanding the way that he approaches interviews and he has this ability to like say something really poetic and I don't think everyone kind of knows that about him I think you do have to be like in a wormhole of of his interviews to kind of know that if you just are a fan of his work for example and so I thought it would be interesting to ask him a more kind of philosophical or like question not deeply philosophical but just something that would provoke that kind of answer in it and it worked.

9:13So in a way, I think that's my approach. It's interesting because you certainly, I mean, you bring the academic training of a journalist and certainly the obsessive need to prepare or over-prepare before an assignment. You know what I mean? You sound like a bit of an obsessive person and I say that as the highest compliment. Well, I don't think I could go into anything that I do without preparing. And sometimes I feel like maybe it's unnecessary to the level because I think it comes from sometimes with me anyway, like maybe a little bit of a lack of confidence in myself or something like that, that I feel the need to be so prepared for something.

9:49But at the same time, it just makes me feel comfortable because then I know I can just feel good about it. Even if it didn't go well, I can say, well, at least I did the best I could beforehand. Yeah. And then it's kind of out of your hands. But I've definitely been interviewed by people before who don't have any notes, you know, don't have anything. And it's just completely off the dome. And I've always been so impressed by that level of being able to honestly memorize. And maybe it is also a confidence thing too. Well, maybe they're just, maybe they're just winging it. Maybe they didn't memorize anything.

10:24I don't know. And obviously that can work sometimes and can be a disaster other times. But yeah, I mean, I, like I would say for this podcast, our producer had to like beat out of me the idea that I needed to spend like an entire Friday researching someone before I interviewed them. And she was like, you don't have time. You have to stop doing this. This is out of control. But it is, I think, not to make it about being a woman, but I think there is something to that. This sense of like imposter syndrome and a lack of confidence and that you need to overprepare to go in and do something that with all love and respect to the men in my life, that maybe a man could go in with 15 minutes of prep and just wing it.

11:04I agree. I cannot do that. I agree. But are they getting a better interview? I don't know. I don't know that they are, Amelia. I don't know that they are. I'm curious about the Oscars for another beat. And then I want to talk more about many, many things. But when we were getting ready for the show, not that I was getting ready too much. I didn't get ready that much because I'm not allowed anymore. No, you're not allowed. I'm not allowed to overpropier. Absolutely not. Your Friday, you were off the clock. You were having drinks with the girls. I wish. That the Oscars is airing on YouTube for the first time in 2029, which when I saw that, my first thought was, what's taking them so long?

11:38How is it possible that it's going to take them like three more years to put it on YouTube? Put it on YouTube tomorrow, you guys. But still a sign of the times. The Oscars, we're getting there. We're getting on YouTube. What else would you like to see an award show like the Oscars do to kind of meet this moment? Right. You've talked about four or five years ago. It was ludicrous to think that there would be like a quote, non-traditional person on the red carpet. Now it's it's all there is. But what else? Like where are award shows like the Oscars, but not exclusive to them, still sort of behind the times when it comes to the way people actually consume entertainment, the way they find content, for lack of a better term.

12:21That's a good question. I mean, I think there's still a long way to go in terms of awarding or taking seriously online content. Sure. Yeah. I mean, this year with the Golden Globes, they had a podcast category. Wild. Yeah. Of them. And I think that was a really interesting move. And I think that there's a long way to go as well with like other award shows taking shows like Chicken Shop Date. Like, why can't we win certain awards? Why can't Chicken Shop Date? It's not going to win an Oscar. No, no, no. But what could you win that you couldn't like that you couldn't submit yourself for now? Like, is it an Emmy?

12:56Well, an Emmy, I tried to submit for the Emmys. And then there was a clause because I didn't have an American production company because it was a British production company. You have to have an American. But I've figured it out now. OK, so I'm hoping to be eligible next year for the Emmys. But still, it's like in a specific category. Like, I don't even think it would be like within the main awards that they would be giving out. But you can still you can still apply. I think it's like short form category. But yeah, I think that there's so many incredible online series and again, podcasts or content that is what people are consuming now.

13:31And I think that these award shows, you know, and people could say, oh, it's just an award show. Who cares? But actually, people do care. And there's so much out there that people do as humans like to be told what is good and what is not. and I think that it also it kind of condenses the amount of things that you have to consume in a way so I do think it's people really look to those awards and they are really important still yeah so I think for sure more categories within online content would be amazing and with the Oscars specifically I think again just like broadening out the the types of films and artists and creative people that can be eligible for awards I think would be amazing.

14:11Have you told them this? No, I haven't. But I will. Well, maybe maybe you just did. I am curious for your sort of point of view on this idea of like the the online creator. Right. Which is if you think about the size of the quote unquote creator economy. Right. Like people making things on the Internet and putting them on platforms. It's like two hundred and fifty billion dollars a year. Right. Like it's massive. And it is for many people like the only thing they watch. Right. is TikTok or YouTube or so on and so forth, people like you are celebrities to those many, many millions of people. Like that is a thing.

14:50And yet somehow, I think from where I sit, at least, it still doesn't seem like it is received with the same level of respect and maybe like deference or credibility as like Hollywood acting or something more traditional or conventional. Why do you think that is? And is that something you have experienced? And how have you experienced that maybe change since 2014 when you launched the show? Well, it's a great question. I think it's one of those things where it's like the changing of the guard. I think that there's a lot of people in positions of power that they grew up watching consuming television.

15:25And that is kind of the be-all and end-all of what they deem to be legitimate in terms of a successful career within entertainment. So I think that as people die, things will change. But more to that, I think since it's personally in my journey within my career, it's always been important to me to kind of bridge the gap between the online world and then more of the traditional media because I've always seen the value in people taking traditional media seriously. it's been a real need of mine to to make sure that I kind of straddle both in a way so taking opportunities within traditional media when they seem beneficial but then also making sure that I'm really like planting myself on YouTube and on TikTok and doing all those things I think you need to be super strategic about things and to understand that there are different audiences for both spheres and you can speak to both of them and there's a way to speak to both of them I mean There's been different people, I guess, throughout kind of history of online culture that have kind of paved the way for like being taken more seriously from like people like Emma Chamberlain, for example.

16:34I think that she's been someone that people look to who has really kind of crossed over. And then even people like Mr. Beast or people who get to that level of fame within Internet culture. I also think these people are all entrepreneurs and they all are business minded creators. and I think that having that aspect to their personality and their drive has really also made people in the public be more aware of them yeah but also with my show for example with chicken shop day I honestly see that as a it's a show on YouTube you know I'm not vlogging I'm not doing something that's kind of more native to to the online space I'm kind of doing something that traditional media has done for decades but I am interpreting it to the YouTube audience so in that sense I feel like because of the format aspect of what I do it's been more easy to translate it to like a wider audience yeah yeah it's interesting this idea of sort of like transcending from online culture and sort of creator world into maybe more traditional or more sort of conventionally respected entertainment.

17:46And I think at some point that line has to go away, right? Because it's just like online culture and YouTube and TikTok. Like that is at this point, I think, conventional entertainment, right? But maybe we are just waiting for some people to die. Like maybe that is just what's happening. I also think that I'm from a generation where like I grew up watching television and like appointment viewing like that. Me too, yeah. I'm 32. to. And I think obviously now like 20 year olds, they won't have that at all. Like they will only have grown up watching TikTok, having a streamer. They can just watch whatever they want.

18:19So I do think it's like a generational shift that I'm someone who still values the traditional space. But at the end of the day, I also think that movies will stand the test of time. Like that is people are always going to want to watch movies and watching a movie and making a movie is different to making a TikTok video. It just is. And so it's just a different medium. And I don't, I don't think that the fact that, you know, these new social media platforms coming up means that, you know, they're going to take over that space necessarily. I just think that people need to understand that they are different platforms that are made for different types of content and the way that you consume it.

18:56I was having a friend the other day and they were talking about their favorite podcast now being on Netflix, for example. They just said, I don't want to watch it on Netflix. And it's like, well, you just have to press a button. A different button. And they're like, I'm not going to do it. Where did they want to watch the podcast? On YouTube. I see. And it's interesting. That's interesting that an audience, that pressing a different button is like such an effort that you really see the format living in a certain ecosystem. Yeah. And that is fascinating to me. And I have had conversations with streamers before about moving.

19:31Well, this was actually a question. I'm curious. The show has been running on YouTube now for, what, 12 years? Yeah. Have you ever given any consideration to taking it off YouTube? Like, what would that potentially look like for you? I have had offers to take it off YouTube. I bet you have. For like... Much money. Much money. And I've said no, because, again, I just believe and think that that is what would happen. The audience will be like, why is it on another platform? I don't want to press the button. Yeah. And I think what's what I love about YouTube is that it's very democratic. You know, you just have to have access to the Internet to be able to watch it.

20:06And my audience really likes consuming it there. And I think it's very difficult to, like, change the behavior of an audience with a show that they already know. I would love and I'm trying to work with streamers but on separate projects that I feel like would work for the platform itself you know I'm developing a tv series and like for example and I feel like people love watching tv series on on on streamers yeah and I think that would make sense and you know who knows maybe the podcasting will find an audience on streamers but it might just take a few years people are going to have to really think about pressing that button or maybe it will yeah or maybe it will just only work with with new podcasts that you associate with the networks yeah I honestly think it is maybe something to do with that I mean how have you you talked a lot about sort of creators as entrepreneurs and like a Mr.

21:01Beast you yourself are very much entrepreneurial and you've had to be you've had to be entrepreneurial you've had to be strategic. This is a big question. I'm sort of sorry for asking it this way, but it's what's coming to mind. What have you had to learn about strategy since 2014 when you decided to launch the show? Okay, great. You've now built it into a real meaningful business for yourself. What have you had to learn along the way? I guess lots of things. I think the main thing that I've learned is how important it is and how thankful and happy I am that I own my own copyright. Tell me about that.

21:42Yeah. When did you make that decision? When did that come up? Well, when I started the show, so the show started in a youth club and it started as a column in a youth run publication from when I was 17. The Cut. The Cut. Yes. Not The Cut, but The Cut. It was called The Cut. And then, yeah, when I was at my first year of university, I went to St. Martin, studied fashion journalism, I thought, oh, this would be great if this was filmed because it's funny and awkward. And if only I knew someone with a camera to help me film it. And finally, I met someone, started making them on YouTube. And it then got to a point after making maybe like five episodes where I just I couldn't ask people for favors anymore.

22:17You know, everyone was doing it for free. I was a student. I was even persuading the shops to the shops weren't even closing. They were open. And we would have to because there were people like eating chicken around you and we'd have to pause keep pausing intermittently like when people were people ordering stuff because I didn't have enough like budget to to shut the shop I didn't even know that you could even do that I just didn't know anything about production so it got to a point where I honestly didn't have any means to make an episode anymore and so I thought okay how am I going to do this so I I spoke to a record label and they were gonna help me do it and I would maybe have to do set amount of their artists on the show and then I was allowed two other ones but they wanted to buy the rights from me and the deal was quite was really terrible actually and luckily that's when I got a manager for the first time they looked over the contract said you cannot sign this so thank you to them and then I tried to get funding through a media company and they again were like we we want the copyright and they wanted to buy it for a ridiculous amount of money like much money 500 pounds no is what they offered no yeah to buy the you imagine buy the copyright yeah can you imagine if you had signed that i know and something just in me i don't even know i wasn't getting any really other advice like something in me just i just knew like that is not i cannot do that no so i then ended up getting a brand deal because i also came up at the time when being an influencer was beginning.

23:51So brands were understanding that they can go direct to the person. They can cut out the middleman. They can cut out the agency. They don't have to buy this big billboard. The billboard is now on someone's phone. So I got a brand deal and the brand deal paid for me to be able to never think about funding it again. More than 500 pounds. More than 500 pounds, yeah. And not to say that like set me up for the rest of my life, but I mean, it just meant that I could then make episodes and then I was making money on the AdSense then, and it just became this returning investment. And now I fund the episodes with the money that I make from the Google AdSense.

24:26We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back.

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26:36what have you had to learn or like what can you tell me about the youtube of it all right like the algorithm of it all i think there's the youtube piece of it there's the tiktok piece of it and there's always so much conversation and consternation around these algorithms and what they expose us to. And, you know, when TikTok was acquired in the United States recently, like put under U.S. ownership, there was all of this consternation around, will the algorithm change and what will it surface and what won't it? How do you navigate like the whims of the algorithm? How has that shown up for you and your business?