Zohran Mamdani, the Internet’s Mayor (Re-air)

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1:50Welcome to Wired's Big Interview. I'm Katie Drummond. Zoran Mamdani is, quite literally, everywhere. The 34-year-old New York State Assemblyman went from political rookie to internet darling and the presumptive winner of New York City's November mayoral race. He's already graced the covers of Time, New York, Vanity Fair, and The Nation, among other publications. He's sparred with newscasters on CNN and NBC. He's riffed with Stephen Colbert. And he's bantered like his life depended on it with the hosts of The View. Mamdani's ascent to political superstar wasn't fueled by those print pages or broadcast interviews.

2:26Instead, his meteoric rise is arguably the byproduct of a single element of his mayoral campaign, a really, really good social strategy. I wanted to ask him about it. So on a rainy Monday morning, Mamdani and I caught up for 45 minutes in a conference room at his Manhattan campaign office. This is That Conversation. Mr. Mamdani, welcome to The Big Interview. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for being here. So we always start these conversations with some rapid-fire questions. It's Monday morning. We're going to warm up a little bit. Are you ready? I'm ready. You're ready. Okay. What is your screen time average in a given week?

3:03Don't lie to me. It's too early in the interview for that. I'm going to be honest. I haven't looked at it, but mostly out of fear of what it could be. So it's extremely elevated. Elevated is a very kind word. What is your internet guilty pleasure? Probably say TikTok. Same. You know, it's been quite concerning now. A lot of my algorithm is AI videos of Jake Paul speaking Punjabi. Sounds like quite a guilty pleasure to me. If you could design one civic app for New Yorkers, what would it do? One civic app for New Yorkers. Right now, I'd say an app that distills how to vote, where to vote, all the information that you need on voting.

3:44Because there's still a lot of New Yorkers that don't know the general election is coming up. Should be one simple place to go. You would think, wouldn't you? Yeah. I feel that way about a lot of politics. You met your wife on Hinge. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Any tips? Any tips?

4:03You know, continue to have hope. Just to be clear, I am married. Okay. But for anyone else, you know. I'm not saying that.

4:13She were happy marriage. We're doing great, thank you. Great, great. What is one tech tool that you actually find helpful in your day-to-day work? What do you use? A tech tool.

4:27It's very old-fashioned, but my alarm is very useful. I'm sure right now. I could not function without that alarm. What time are you up this morning? What time was I up this morning? I was up at 7.30. Not too early this morning. This morning was a nice morning. Every now and then you get one of those. Is technology making democracy stronger or weaker? I think by its current use, weaker. but I don't think that's an innate aspect of technology. If you could have dinner with any tech founder, living or dead, who would it be? Any tech founder, living or dead.

5:03You know, I would like to have dinner with Huge Ma, who is actually a constituent of mine. He created something called TurboVax, which was a portal that took publicly accessible information about vaccine appointments and made it much easier for New Yorkers to actually sign up for them at the peak of COVID. And it was so much so that I, an elected official, was recommending to my own constituents that they not use the government website to find their appointments and find where they could actually get a test. And they used TurboVax instead. You know, kudos to you for not saying Steve Jobs, because that's what most people go for.

5:37Okay, let's jump right in. So before you were an extremely online mayoral candidate, before you were a state assembly member, a community organizer, a rapper, which we're going to talk a little bit about. You were a kid, and you were a kid who grew up with the internet. Can you talk a little bit about some of your formative digital experiences? Were you an early adopter? Were you an always online guy when you were 10? What was that like for you? So my parents didn't let me watch TV on weekdays. Okay. And I have a distinct memory of the beginning of Hulu, where you could watch TV on your computer and thoroughly enjoying the loophole that that created for my young childhood.

6:16I think early adopter, I think, would be giving myself a little bit too much credit, but I played quite a few computer games, especially FIFA, SimCity, RollerCoaster Tycoon, Championship Manager, which then became Football Manager. And that kind of introduced me to the world of also So like chat rooms around games, things like that. But one of my memories was also the birth of iTunes and the free song of the week and having an iPod. Before that, having a jog proof Sony Walkman. These were some of the memories that kind of informed the way I saw technology in the world. And then fast forward to college.

6:56You organized for Palestine, of course. That's an important part of your history. And you continue to do organizing work after that. I'm curious about how you thought about and approached digital activism as opposed to IRL activism and interaction. Sort of, is one approach better for achieving certain goals? Did you see them working in tandem? How did you think about the digital piece of your work, even sort of dating back to your late teens and early twirls? I think, to be honest with you, the digital aspect was quite underdeveloped at that time. It was a part of it, but it was more kind of perfunctory than it was adding a distinct utility to the way in which we organized.

7:38And even in high school, my sense of politics was Facebook wall debates going back and forth. Of course. You know, people are still having those. Wishing them the best. Yeah, me too. And I remember really thinking that each time I would research something and I would write it and I would think that I really got my friend. And then he would feel the exact same way. We'd just go back and forth and never move each other even more than an inch. That to me was what a lot of that kind of early fusing of politics and Internet was. And I think, you know, even actually in college, I stopped using Facebook for a few years, but only would kind of keep an account to keep the Bowdoin SJP Facebook page going.

8:22But it rarely, if ever, transformed the world that we were actually living in. Sure. It was more of just a way in which to share information. And I think that, I'm sure we'll talk about this more, but the most exciting part of this campaign has been, as it pertains to social media, the use of it to not only reflect the world that we live in, but to also transform that same world. And I think that was something that I had not arrived at in early years. Yeah. You grew up online, as we've said, and like all of us who grew up online, I grew up online. You have a digital footprint, right? You have a digital history.

8:55Much of which has been picked over. It's been used to make fun of you. It's been used to attack you. I read a piece over the weekend. They quoted some experts saying, you know, anyone running for mayor should really scrub their digital profile. Did you? Clearly not. Clearly not. Can you believe if I did it? Do you ever? The worst scrub of all time. Do you fire whoever was responsible for that? Do you ever wish you had? Do you ever wish that less of you as a 21-year-old was out there now that you're running for mayor of New York City? You know, I haven't spent too much time on it, frankly, in turning it over in my head again and again.

9:33Because I think also too much of politics has become artificial, has become the creation of a self that is actually divorced from the way in which you grew up through the world. and I think that actually being able to show who you've been over a period of time, the growth, the consistency, all of these things at the same time, I think is also something that reflects what many people go through in and outside of politics and yet within politics it's almost as if we want to create a snapshot of who you are in this moment and tell people to extrapolate it. That's who you've always been. You've always been.

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11:32Obviously, the campaign on social has been a meteoric success. I mean, it has been one of the foundational stories of this era, of this entire campaign. When you win, which it is widely anticipated that you will in a few weeks, there will be a lot of fingers pointing at what you did on social media to help explain why you are now the mayor of New York City. But take us back in time. Take us back to before this moment, before you were even pulling at 1%, right? the origin of that social media campaign. Where did it come from? Talk us through the thought process, how you sort of came up with that strategy, you and presumably a team.

12:12Tell us about that. It's funny you mentioned the 1 % because we were recently looking at that poll and I was quite literally tied with someone else. It's not even a name. 1 % generous. Oh, it's literally someone else. It's like all the candidates, me. Well, it's people who wrote in their friends. Tied with someone else. Yeah, sure. literally anybody else anyone else and then him yeah um shout outs to someone else yeah good for them i think there are a few moments i mean one of them for me is by the time i ran for state assembly and i think especially with with congressman ocasio-cortez's run in 2018 and the way in which her launch video so captivated people and distilled her politics into something that could be shared with everyone.

12:59The idea of having a launch video for social media, and not necessarily even launch, but because the one that I shared, I think, came out just a few weeks before my election, right? But having a video that would kind of distill your politics, distill your campaign, that was becoming more and more well-established. And I was seeing at the state assembly level that this was kind of the approach. We started to think about what it could look like to use videos in a non-electoral capacity, use them in a legislative advocacy capacity to try and take that same kind of approach as if it was a campaign, but have it be about a specific set of issues.

13:35And one of those approaches was with the campaign we started called Fix the MTA. And so we made this big launch video with this duo called Melted Solids who continue to work on the campaign today. And it's this launch video that looks to speak about the MTA specifically and distill the three key ways that we were going to transform the MTA. and bringing that ethos of what if we took the same kind of rigor and desire to break out of the little political bubble and not just had it be about elections. And even, you know, in terms of scale, if I look back, it didn't reach that many people, but it was this kind of moment in which we thought there could be more than just the approach and the model that we've seen.

14:13And then since then, I would see also a number of other politicians who would continue to utilize these mediums in different and innovative ways. Kangshuna Ocasio-Cortez is one of the most clear examples. City Council Member Chiyose was someone who was also using short-form media, Instagram, kind of built for TikTok and Instagram as a medium. And it was really taking issues that would previously only be of the concern of those pre-existingly plugged in into the politics of the city and making it of a far larger interest, and specifically with broker's fees. And as we were thinking about all that, I had a meeting with Anthony, who's one member of the duo with Deb of Melted Solids.

14:58We met at Pyboat in Astoria, just by where I live. And I was talking to him about wanting this campaign to be one that didn't just better the other candidates in terms of our use of digital, but really owned that medium and tried to do something different in the manner in which we used it and investing in it at an early level with the level of investment that I think most consultants would tell us was not the right move to make. And yet we decided we're going to make two highly produced videos every month and we're going to supplement that with our own videos that we take with an iPhone here and there.

15:36So you've executed on a lot of very fun stunts on social media during this campaign. Do you have a favorite? Do you have one that was the most fun, that you think was the most effective? I think... one of the first ones that really broke through was when I did the polar bear plunge. It's very unpleasant to watch. Freezing, your wreck, as the next mayor of New York City. Let's plunge into the details.

16:09Very, very cold.

16:14And I think specifically shooting the rest of that video after I'm out of the water, just dripping cold, trying to speak about the nine mayoral appointees on the rent guidelines board. That was quite fun. And I think it was this moment where it was quite literally me and Andrew Epstein, who who ran our entire comms operation for the primary, and now is running our entire digital operation for the general. And it's Andrew with his iPhone, and it's me in a$30 suit from the thrift store on Steinway. And just the two of us could make a video that Deb from Melted Solves Within helped to cut, and that then became one of the most watched things that we had put out.

17:00And it cost us such little money, it just cost us far more in terms of invention, and I think also a willingness, frankly, to put yourself out there in all different kinds of ways. Yeah. Many of which are embarrassing. They are embarrassing, yes. Good for you. Speaking of embarrassing, your opponents, namely I'm thinking about Eric Adams before he dropped out, Andrew Cuomo, they have made valiant efforts to find the same success on social media that you have found. What's it been like to watch that? And any favorites from their selection of fine works? What I like about Eric Adams' approach to social media is it's distinct to Eric Adams.

17:40You wouldn't confuse his video for mine. It's not an imitation of my video. It's very much Eric Adams. It sure is. I mean, the one where he's getting stuff done, but he doesn't seem to do anything. Right. It's incredible. And he's making a smoothie at 9 a.m., but it's 11 a.m. With the clock behind. It's incredible. Yeah, fine. I could not come up with that or script that. My favorite one of his is the one with the Michael Bay, Linkin Park, what I've done. And it's like POV, you're the mayor, but it's on him. So it's either a misuse of POV or a bold new format. Exactly. So I did start listening to what I've done by Linkin Park a lot after watching that video.

18:25and I do credit the mayor for that. Brought me back to memories of Meteora and hybrid theory. Andrew Cuomo's use of social media, it feels a little more of a reflection of I just got beat by a guy who uses social media. So let's try and get this show on the road. There you go. I do miss the half-cut sleeves that he had in the relaunch video. Bring those back, Andrew. You still have time. Please. So one of the consequences of your approach on social media, I would argue, is actually its own success. So you are extremely famous online, which in the year 2025 means you are just famous, right? Like, my family lives in Canada.

19:07They all know who you are. Where do they live in Canada? Western Canada. They all know that I'm interviewing you today. My dad is like, oh, yeah, the guy. So you are known to millions of people outside of New York City, outside of even this country, outside of the voters that you are courting. How have you had to adapt to that level of notoriety? I think there are some logistical adaptations. You'll see we make a lot more videos in this office now. Sure. And part of that is just because we don't have enough time to make them outside anymore because of what making them outside means now. And part of that is a beautiful thing where people are stopping you and saying hello.

19:44And that is one of our many hopes from the beginning of this campaign, that we break out of this bubble. And then what I've also really been overjoyed by is the blossoming of the video team that we have. You know, it initially started with two people, then it was three people, now four, now five. And the inventiveness that they bring to this. Because there's a real tendency when you're successful with something to just continue to do that again and again and again. I have a very bad habit with food where if I like one dish, I'll just eat it until I'm sick of it. And I think what's been so lovely is to work with a team whose hunger is undid by the success of that initial format.

20:23And it would be very easy to just continue to make direct-to-cameras every single day. But the inventiveness of how do we continue, how do we be consistent with our message, but continue to reinvent the medium and the way in which we're using this. And that's something that I think is both exciting and also necessary as part of our political project. We cannot rest on our laurels. To be clear, you're literally everywhere. So you've been on the cover of Time Magazine, New York Magazine, among others. You've done The Late Show, The View, CNN, MSNBC. I'm here from Wired. We are the third Condé Nast publication to interview you.

21:02I have to imagine the editor-in-chief of Glamour is somewhere outside. She's going to be coming in after. She's going to interview you. She'll be the fourth. Do you worry about overexposure? I don't really think about it. Okay. And I defer to my comms to even decide on questions of exposure or overexposure. How does your use of social media change, assuming that you take office? So what does it look like to go from campaigning on social media to governing and to thinking about these platforms as tools of governance rather than tools to galvanize an electorate? I'm going to make the Eric Adams reviews.

21:38Well, obviously. I mean, you're clearly inspired. As soon as this is over? It's POV, you're the mayor of New York City, I'm getting stuff done, I'm going to get the clock. And it just always says 11 a.m. Always 11. He has left us a model. I think we'll kind of wrestle with it. But, you know, I think social media is often discussed as a way in which you can escape the world. And what's been exciting is to be a part of a team that's looking to use it as a way in which to tell the stories of that world and then to transform it. and the use of the medium has allowed us to build a campaign that now has more than 85 ,000 volunteers so many of whom first engaged with the campaign through a video that they saw or a tweet or a photo and even you know we recently put out a request for submissions for an iRegister to vote sticker and we had hundreds of artists send in their submissions and then we had thousands of people vote on them and the other day the winning artist came into the office and we just said hello and it was so lovely to to meet this man and get a sense of who he was the design that he made and none of this would have been possible without social media i mean our scavenger hunt you know it brought about 5 000 people or so from across new york city on a premise that we just shared online.

23:07And now here they were in person. And the other day I was at a paper shredding event that we had in the Bronx and a woman came over to me and she was confiding in me about an issue that her parents were facing. And then at the end of her telling me her story, she mentioned that she first met me at the scattinger house. And this is the ways in which social media can actually transform the world around us. That's why I don't think that there's an innate positive or negative. It depends on how you use these tools. And so in governing, it has to continue to be a tool that speaks to as many New Yorkers as possible.

23:42Because today, so many more New Yorkers are getting their news or their sense of self or their sense of their city from the social media that they use. And to ignore that is to ignore reality. And so we have to be not only present there, but we have to be thinking about how do we treat these forms of media with the seriousness and the legitimacy that they deserve? Because I think that's, I don't think you can divorce the political approach to social media from the political approach to young people. There's so often a condescension about both the medium and the people themselves that it doesn't require that kind of time and study and approach when in fact it requires just as much if not more.

24:23And if you show that, then people are willing to engage with you. If you just treat young people as you would anyone else with the same concerns, the same stakes, the same consequences. And if you prep for that Instagram video in the way that you would for a print media interview, you'll see that there is the possibility of reaching for more people. Yeah, sure. So you talked a little bit about shooting more videos in the office as opposed to out on the sidewalk for good reason. you're extremely visible. You are a person of color. You are a self-described democratic socialist. You're Muslim. You hold values and positions, whether on Gaza or the LGBTQIA community, that are anathema, right, to large segments of this country.