Creativity, Christmas and a Cardiac Crisis - Vicki Maguire, Havas

0:28Welcome back everybody to Uncensored CMO. Michael Buble inspired as to add as well. I wanted to catch up with Vicky to find out a bit about her career. How did she get into this? Where does she come from? What makes creativity so powerful? And find out a little bit about the magic in making Christmas ads. This is such a lot of fun. I know you're going to love it. This is Vicky Maguire. Vicky, welcome to the show. Thank you. Well, we're chatting about Sex Pistols, right? So I remember designing the cover artwork for my podcast and I said to designer Colin I'm like I love the Sex Pistols it has to be bright yellow yeah and I was thinking about creating my own font right and do you remember like we're a similar age remember when you like used to type out your name to stick in the collar of your shirt and you had that like those little guns yeah and you can it had that sort of stamp kind of thing like a dino print or something like that yeah I remember that give me that I still got one and it's about the size of a house brick and i'm like and that's all it does it just prints out so it just pushes things out of plastic and when you look at your kind of like whatever iphone you've got which holds umpteen thousand like music tracks it holds your whole life it's got all your bank details it's got everything right it's got all the books that you read and then this big dino print thing does one job and it's about 14 times the size and i'm like still can't get rid of it it's beautiful isn't it it's like it's like the texture as well isn't it it's the whole thing it's iconic you know what you will never find that in the design museum though but really but for people of because it's lo-fi and it's cheap and it's working class because that's what we used to put tea and coffee on do you remember it's such a shame it's about i mean i could go on a rant about this for ages but the whole kind of like uh you know that kind of the snobbery if you like around design and it doesn't kind of respect things like this and those weird old stencil sets we used to get from WH Smiths to write on our school books you know that's lowbrow and the same with Jamie Reid I absolutely loved Jamie Reid because he unlocked something for me I was you know I'm from Leicester my mum and dad had a stall on Leicester Market my dad was a brickie and I didn't excel at school I thought I was sick now I look back at it I was bored and I was also dyspraxic but I didn't realise that until about four years ago so it wasn't a great time for me I made some great mates obviously but but it was not I was not I wasn't going to shine academically and also nobody expected you to because it was a in a working class school in a working class area and nobody was expected to you know progress and I just remember being really really frustrated and one of the ways I could ease my frustration basically was the tail end of punk so at about 13 or 14 I was going to I was going to bands yeah me and my best mate to Nuju Solanke used to kind of like pretend that we were revising around each other's houses but we were going off to the De Montfort Hall in Leicester or the Percy G which was part of Leicester Polly, that shows my age and going to see kind of like you know the Buscocks or going to see kind of like Southern Death Cult or going to see all these bands and it was when I saw Jamie Reid's artwork I think it was for Pretty Vacant or something like that for the Sex Pistols it blew me away because it was scrap art and it was photocopied and I was sitting in an art class trying to get an O-level to go to art school having to draw a kind of like an eggplant or having to draw a bison skull whatever the fuck that we were meant to draw to get to show that you were artistic and and I was shocking and I saw this and I was like wow that just blew me away so I started to try to put a folder together of all these ideas and I was surrounded by ideas because like I say on Leicester Market you are you are surrounded by people and language and and you know they call it vintage now but basically it was shit just loads and loads and loads of stuff and Jamie used to bring this stuff together and make art out of it and that just blew me away and so I did it and I learned very early on actually that even if I I could make up for the gaps in my talent by by just talking my way into it blagging which is another skill that I got from Leicester Market you know when you're skint you can talk something up from two pound to five pound and that makes a difference that's a pint you know what I mean so so they're the kind of life skills it's weird I tell you know Dave truck will talk about this you know being a kind of you know being a barra boy you know and moving up into into the art world but it really did that time served me well but jamie's work was a proper light bulb moment for me yeah and it still is yeah it's so distinctive isn't it i mean it's just unforgettable it's that spirit as well though yes and you don't realize that you're living through or you're doing something the wrong way because it's the only way for you.

5:56You know, I've got to thank my upbringing and my parents for not really putting any massive expectation on me apart from they just wanted me to be happy. You know, I can hear kind of, you know, my mum now going, are you sure you want to go do that? And I'm like, yeah, oh, okay, well, as long as you're happy and if you don't like it, you can come back on the market. That is amazing. Because that takes like the fear of failure away. So whatever I tried, I'd always got my mum in the back of my mind saying, well, come on, you can always come back on the market. You know, and so I've never had the fear of fucking up.

6:34And I fucked up so many times. But you always ended up in a different place, which is, you know, which is a good thing, I think. And you learn so much, don't you, as well? Oh, mate, honestly. I mean, it teaches you so much. And talking about kind of back in the day, I mean, one of my favourite campaigns from that era is Tango. Iconic, isn't it? I mean, when I was growing up, probably the Tango ads were the ones that like just we'd all talk about. Everyone wanted to copy, slapping your mates around the head, you know, which now, I mean, blown, you'd get into trouble now, wouldn't you? Can you imagine?

7:07Do you know what? All sorts of people. It was of its time, but it's still very influential. sure. I mean, I didn't know that I was a failed fashion designer. And again, another light bulb moment for me was when I met, when I was working for Paul Smith, who basically said, Vicky, stop, stop trying to draw and write your ideas down instead. Right. And that is when I started to listen to how people spoke and I started to write. And then I ended up at Ted Baker. And this is, This is pivotal for me because Ted Baker shared an office with a newly created ad agency called Howe Henry Childacott-Laurie.

7:46I knew nothing about advertising. I knew nothing about advertising agencies. But these guys were cool. And I used to go into their office. I mean, fucking hell. I mean, how they ever let me in? I used to go into their office and basically sell them T-shirts. And I remember kind of like Rupert would just let me walk in. You know, and I'd be like, what are you doing? And he's like, oh, actually, we're doing this and we're doing that. And then I'd meet people like Trev Robinson, who was a massive influence on me again, because I was like, what are you doing? You know, and he's like, oh, we're thinking up a script.

8:20And what do you mean a script? And he'd show me. And I'd be like, how much do you earn? And he'd tell me. And I'd be like, fucking hell. You earn how much for putting your feet on the table, surrounded by books and toys, just thinking of ideas? And he's like, yeah, pretty much so. It's funny when you put it like that, isn't it? Seriously. And it was huge for me. And they let me come in and they let me see what they did. And they used to bring me into brainstorms and things like that. They were a massive, and I didn't realize how breakthrough and influential that agency was in the way that they were open.

9:00They were authentic. They were embracing. They were a band of outsiders. I mean, you know, you don't realize how rare it is to be not only be a female at that time, but also, you know, for Trev being black. But that agency just had something about it. And do you know what? It's weird. I've never thanked Rupert for letting me do that. But it was a massive influence on my career and also how I tried to find my crew subsequently. Because I know it's all about people at the end of the day. I've never chased, in all the places that I've worked, I've never chased the work. I've always tried to find the people that were my people and we could do some good stuff together.

9:54and I got that from HHCL. You're so right about people, aren't you? Because I think the more I've progressed in my career, the more I've realised it, you know what matters most? It's not the name above the door. It's the team you're doing the work with. 100%. Because if they've got your back, if they inspire you, if you bounce off each other, you can do things the other one can't do. That's what really matters, isn't it? And when you're young in your career, just I want to work for that company because of the name. This is it. I think that's broken down. And I was talking to some students that I kind of mentor.

10:27And they're like, oh, where do we go? We used to know, but now we don't. And I'm like, that's brilliant. Just go where they will let you be you. And some people won't let you be you. You know, I've worked in places that just weren't a good fit for me. And back in the day, I used to think it was me. And now I know it was me, but I know that that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. you know and that's I remember once I won't name the agency because I think the people are still kicking about but but I've always had a fuck off fund which used to be three months rent and uh three months rent and money for crisps right that's that's how I kind of like judged my career and and I remember being in one agency and I'm thinking well this is not right for me but I knew I'd got my fuck off fund and I remember being in one particular meeting and I thought oh this is it And I remember getting a Pret-a-Manger napkin and just writing I resign on it and pushing it towards my CD, who laughed.

11:27And so I got another one and wrote no, comma, because I knew my punctuation then. I resign and then just literally just got my coat and went, which is a ridiculous thing. If somebody did that to me, I'd be like, what the fuck? But I love that kind of the arrogance of youth. That is a great feeling though, isn't it? When you come to that point, you go, do you know what? I don't need this. I've got money for crisps. I'll be fine. Exactly. Now, we're going to talk Christmas ads, you know, because it's Christmas, right? And it's a good time to talk about it. But before we do, I want to talk about my favourite bit of work that you've done, which is incredibly moving, but the British Heart Foundation.

12:07Now, describe it for people that haven't come across it, because I want everyone to hear about this. And particularly because, you know, in our industry, we like to award things and celebrate things. But actually, you know, and we talk about purpose, but flipping heck, this has got some pretty meaty purpose behind it, hasn't it? So tell us about the campaign. So this is the Vinnie Jones Hard and Fast for the British Heart Foundation. I remember the brief coming in and it was quite a simple brief, which we thought, which was teach the nation how to perform bystander CPR. and we were like okay that's going to be cool so we looked into it a little bit and we found out what the problem was we thought the problem was that you know first aid and CPR wasn't being taught in school so nobody grown up with it but kind of the opposite was true it's not that people don't know how to do it it's that they don't want to know how to do it because if you know that you've got those skills and somebody falls in front of you has a kind of has a cardiac arrest in front of you, the onus is on you.

13:14So if you don't know what to do, you can go, well, hands up, mate, I couldn't do anything because I don't know what to do. So there is this positive deniability, which is like really weird. We also found out that one of the reasons why people don't get involved is because they think that they had to do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation as well. And 80 % of the population would not give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to anybody with a beard which i thought was hilarious so basically if you have a coronary in the middle of your so a beard's bad for your health you are fucked seriously they're just gonna leave you they're gonna step over you they don't want to do it so we knew with all this kind of like with all this kind of intel we knew that we'd have to do something that was stepping out of the medical and education fields and playing entertainment education so you would store it somewhere else in your brain.

14:12And props to the British Heart Foundation, a very brave client called Betty McBride. Because we went to her and said, we're not going to use a doctor. We're not going to use a nurse. We want to use a hard man, Vinnie Jones, who's used to killing people. But now we want to show him kind of like showing you how to save people with a little bit of sticky language, hard and fast on the sovereign to stand alive. And she's like, Vinnie Jones. Yeah, the guy that's just been in the papers for bottling somebody two weeks ago. Well, yes. But she's like, okay, well, let's see where this goes. And it just went.

14:57Vinnie was really good, actually. You forget that he's made over 50 films. He has, doesn't he? Because the acting in it is brilliant. Oh, mate, I had to watch 50. I mean, he plays, I mean, sorry Vinnie, but you play the same part in every film I've watched. But it just happened to be the part we wanted him to play. Yeah, and he was, you know, his wife at the time had got heart problems and he was like, yeah, I'm coming over and I'll do it. And he was just a legend. And everything just fell into place. You know, the casting was right. The people were right. And it just came out at a time where, you know, I think people just got sick of being told what to do and wanted to be entertained.

15:39And it was incredible. And it just blew up. Personally, it blew up for me, which was ridiculous because I've been in the industry for a very long time. But suddenly we're like, oh, my God, who is that? And you're like, great, my 25 year meteoric rise. but more importantly we like i think within like two days of it going out on air and like doing you know and going out on socials we were getting reports back from kind of like from from the parent you know from the ambulance service from paramedics from doctors saying that there are people starting to come in and that have been saved by band bystander cpr i mean that is amazing isn't it that year it cleaned up in the award you know which is great so you know i love i i can't lie i'm a shameless lover of gongs but we started to follow up on some of these stories you hear 999 calls and you know the the guy on the other end of the phone is is talking you know the the person that's called through cpr and you know one guy goes no no no it's all right i'm doing the Vinny I'm doing the Vinny I'm singing Stairn Alive and you're like you get you get the goosebumps I mean that that beats everything doesn't it seriously that beats easily you know that beats every line every pencil every whatever because somebody I think at the time I stopped counting at the time it was like 75 people were walking around purely because somebody had seen that ad and had performed bystander CPR, sometimes in the middle of Waitrose, and that person had basically been brought back to life.

17:20That is massive. Well, just out of interest, I've always wondered why is that campaign not still running today? Because it's just so good, isn't it? It is. I mean, you know, the British Heart Foundation are a charity. There are other more important things to do. it's still being it's still being used in schools we did a a separate a subsequent campaign with mini vinnie with vinnie jones still in it which was a free copy of it to go around to every school and every sports club uh it's still being used by the nhs to train uh it's still being used by the ambulance service i believe to train and it still does the rounds it still does the rounds It does, actually.

18:03I mean, even last week, actually, I had someone ask me about it at System One, just going, oh, have you got that Vinny, the Vinny commercial, you know, as a good example of how to do a charity ad? Because the challenge with so many charity ads is they face into some serious issues, but they do it in a serious way. Yeah, exactly. And unfortunately, it just takes, you know, the average star rating in charities is like 1.6 star. You know, most charity ads just get ignored. But it's, I mean, it looks, you know, when you watch it now, you're like, yeah, it makes so much sense, which it does. It does, yeah.

18:34But again, it's the, bravery is such a weird word, isn't it, when you talk about advertising, because we don't run into fires. But it was such a, it took a lot of chops for the clients to come with us on that journey. but they knew what the benefits would be reaping the rewards they knew the the role that sometimes especially charities sometimes you have to step out of your your world and into culture you need to make a dent in culture and a white coat telling you how to perform cpr wouldn't have done that but you know a hard man in a camel coat would so they knew there were risks especially with vinnie but they could see the benefits and the benefits were more people walking around which is what they wanted to go 90 seconds of entertainment unforgivable entertainment isn't it with a serious message that you just happened to get oh I remember writing that script that script was so difficult to write there's not an ounce of fat on that script there's apps everything is timed the director Wayne McClammy who'd done the great schlep to get people to vote for Obama was incredible and we literally sat and just timed it out meticulously because there's so much information you need to get in which is which is medically right but do it in an entertaining way yeah i love that i love vinnie i even love it down to the the couple of hard men in the background that just start moving with the music rather awkwardly it's all the little details It is, it's all those bits.

20:09They were great. So many, all the crafty bits in there that are amazing. I mean, can you imagine doing the castings for those? It was terrifying. It was like we were getting some... We were on the hardest hard men. We were really getting some hard... We're like, you're not an actor, are you? I think I've been thrown out of a club. You can even have really hard men or you can have good actors. Find the Venn diagram across those two is kind of hard, isn't it? We're talking about entertainment. Let's get into Christmas because obviously, You know, at System 1, we measure every Christmas ad. Oh, I know you do.

20:40We make a lot of noise about it because we love it and like to celebrate the great work that happens. And last year, you were the top-scoring Christmas ad with Asda Elf. Congratulations. Thank you very much. But not just that. I think this is – now, I need to go and check the database, but I'm pretty certain this is the happiest ad of all time because what we do is we measure emotional response, so what people feel when they watch the ad. But this, I think, is the happiest ad we've ever seen because it is just wall-to-wall happiness. But I'd love to know. It feels, I mean, looking in, it just feels really audacious to get Will Ferrell, Elf, in Asda at Christmas.

21:21How do you pull it off? Do you know what? If it is the happiest ad of my crew would absolutely love. That's better than any award or anything like that. That's just brilliant. Um, yeah, I mean, it was, it was an interesting journey. There's, right. I've been to have us, what now? It'll be four years in January now. And, and it's a noisy little agency. Yeah. I've got some really, really, really good people, uh, both in my department and in the agency. And we just, we share swag is the wrong word, but we share a common belief of fuck it. Let's just do it. yeah and we don't like you know like I was saying you know some of the stuff coming up in in my career and some of the people that I've worked with and and you know there is a difference there are yes people and there are no people and it's the people that say yeah let's push it you know I've worked at some places where they're like oh we'll never give that script to that director he'll never say no you don't know you don't know let's just give it a go so I remember sitting around I think it was like January February or something and we're like okay what what are we going to do for next year?

22:37And Mossen, who is kind of like head of Asda, is like, come on then, let's just bring it. Yeah, let's take the gloves off. Let's see if we can bring a little bit of cheer. Asda are brilliant, right? They're one of my, they are, they know their customer better than anybody else I've ever worked with, right? They know what to do for them. They know when to make them laugh. They know when to kind of like, you know, do the right thing. they give free meals for kids during the holidays they give old people you know the over 65s a cup of tea or a kind of like um you know soup and a roll and all that kind of stuff over the winter months and make sure they've got somewhere to go they do their thing community is massive for them they know that they cannot fuck christmas up for their for their families so they do absolutely everything that they can do and that includes bringing the lols right so yes that was the elf campaign but there's a lot of a lot of food discounting and kind of like and food value ads running around it but we knew we needed a center a centerpiece I don't believe in in putting an idea in front of what you're trying to sell so we were like okay who is the best part who loves Christmas as much as Asda do Asda customers love Christmas they're the ones that decorate their houses yeah they're the ones that put new pajamas on on Christmas Eve right they're the ones that will just make sure that their kids are having an absolute time and nobody goes home hungry, right?

24:07They love it and we weren't going to let them down. So we were like, okay, who loves Christmas almost as much as our customers do? And you're like, well, is it da-da-da-da-da? And then we're like, oh, elf. We're like, actually, that could be really interesting. Now we knew That Will Ferrell Has turned down millions To do Elf 2 We knew that it was one of his favourite films We knew that that film was 20 years old And much as I'm not saying that Will Ferrell Would not look hot in a pair of green tights Now But you know We were like okay If he doesn't want to You know redo the character What else can we do and we're and I remember watching that film the first time for about you know I watched it once and I've probably watched it about 150 times subsequently doing that campaign and there are bits in that film that you thought actually if you took this and dropped it in a you know announced a store that'd work wouldn't it and the only person I could think that could do it would be Danny Kleinman.

25:18So we just had a bit of a chat to Danny and just went, we've just done a little cut of all of the bits in Elf that actually we think that we could, can you do something with it? And he was like, what I would have to do is take all of the, all of the learnings, you know, all of the best CGI and then degrade it so it looked 20 years old. And we're like, oh, okay. so he works with Framestore and Framestore were like yeah we've got the best people on it but they're going to have to make it look a bit shit so it fits in with the original film and they're like what the fuck so we found a kind of way to do it and we're like yeah it is going to work we could do it but we're going to need Will so we're like okay how do we get to Will so we start to get to Will and then Will is like I've never heard of Alstair yeah quite rightly you don't live in the UK Okay.

26:13So he was brilliant. He was like, tell me what they do. Tell me what they do for the community. And obviously we've got a whole raft of stuff to show that, you know, what I mean, these are, these are the good guys that do this. And he's like, okay, that's interesting. Okay. Tell me what you want to do. So we wrote a script and we showed him and it was so weird. He was, it was the last email I got at night and it was the first email I woke up to in the morning. and it was like well and it's like oh you have a thing here where it's you know we it you know buddy eats a um a pig in blanket well you know he only eats from the four major food groups he really knows his shit well so literally as they were like well we'll just make some that are maple syrup covered.

27:07So we go back, hey, Will, what about if we covered them in maple syrup? Yeah, great idea. And you're like, wow, this is incredible. The Astor Product Development Team were quickly making up some... Seriously, it became that level of... Wow. It was, I mean, it was brilliant. So absolutely loved it. But one of the reasons, not one of the reasons I think that it kind of like it took, you know, it got out of ads and into culture is because people weren't necessarily expecting it from Asda. So we're on set because we have to shoot some of it live action. And we have, we have a standing. We have a buddy alike who looked nothing like Buddy, but was the same physical appearance, but not the same character.

27:55And Danny needed him to block him and da, da, da, But he looks shit, to be perfectly honest. And we're at Black Island or somewhere like that. And there is another agency shooting an ad on another stage. And they can see that, you know, Asda are shooting. But they don't know what we're doing because basically Danny is almost like Stanley Kubrick. He's under this kind of thing trying to do his matches and nobody ever sees him. when he doesn't come out very often from under his tent where he's trying to match shots. So basically all they saw was Asda and this really bad-looking elf. And I think they put two and two together and got 15.

28:40And I remember like two months later, you know, everybody's starting to go, oh, what John Lewis is going to do and what are they going to do? And then I hear the story and they're like, oh, we've heard that you're doing elf but that it could look a bit ropey. and you're just because that's all they've seen they've seen this badly dressed kind of like you know this guy looked like he was on a stag do in the elf costume that you get off Amazon and we're like yeah yeah that's what we're doing it's true in the nicest possible way because at System 1 part of my job is to watch all the Christmas ads oh you have such a hard life we do actually have to do this it's about 80 as well it's more than you think you know honestly last year I mean you know there are some guaranteed winners you know like mccann for example with with kevin the carrot or uh coco has come back with a new and an old one they do too every year they bring back the trucks and they come up with something new to compete with themselves which is quite funny um but honestly last year everyone was like wow no one saw it coming you know but you kept it really under wraps and when everyone saw it they're like blimey that is amazing because it was just universally liked i mean elf is a property i I just think it crosses generations, doesn't it?

29:55Everyone loves it. It just had that universal appeal last year. It's that thing, isn't it? It looks really obvious now. It does, yeah. Elf is my favourite Christmas film. But also I know how I feel when I see somebody using one of my favourite tracks on an ad. I'm like, you've ruined it for me. And I have to admit, and I don't think I've admitted this, But I have to admit, there was three quarters of the way through. We knew it was going to work. It looked great. Danny just, you get out of the way, Danny Climber, you just let him do his thing. I'm like, this is my favourite ad. Have we fucked it?

30:34People are going to go, what have you done? What have you done? You've ruined our Christmas. But that lasted for about half an hour. And then I'm like, listen, you know, we're bringing it back. But in a way, the authenticity of like retrograding it, I don't know what the term is, kind of degrading it back to 20 years ago. But that's what makes it work because you're respectful of the original. You weren't trying to recreate it in a modern day sense in the store, which might have felt a bit like, oh, yeah, they're just kind of using it. It was very respectful of the original. A lot of that was Will.

31:05A lot of that was do not use AI. Yeah, do not clean it up. I mean, literally, you know, this is, you know, it's his body of work. and there was a respect that he had that rubbed off onto absolutely everybody you know he was like okay what director you're going to use and we're like well actually here's dan is real and you know dan has got everything on there from kind of like comedy to bond credits and he was like yeah okay we're in good hands and but you had to be massively respectful to what you're doing And then some of the moments we're like, we've gone a bit too far on that. There's a lovely bit in the film where Buddy is coming to New York and he's walking down whatever street it is and he finds some chewing gum stuck under the subway railings and he's like, that shot we used to get Buddy to taste a pig in blanket.

32:07And I'm looking at it thinking, does that gross or is that cool? Well, fuck it. so you know it was it was a lovely lovely thing to work on and again it was one of those things like nobody saw it coming which is great it's not you know we didn't keep it under wraps just nobody was asking yeah which is great no on the list of things people are getting ready exactly what John Lewis gonna do yeah is Kevin gonna do another smash hit yeah you know we'll cope sick or twist yeah all the usual conversations it just went straight you know which again I think just adds to the kind of like the mystique. But it is nice, I have to say.

32:42Yes, shiny stuff is lovely. But, you know, being able to get into a cab and not, you know, and your heart not sink when they go, you know, what do you do for a living then? Oh, working advertising. Oh, really? What do you do? Oh, I do. Anything I've ever seen. Well, actually, and then just kind of, and then just sit back a little bit drunk and just let, you know, let the cabbie tell you how we would have done it it's great we should do ad ratings by cabbies i mean honestly oh my god that would be like we could like film this thing where you get in a cab and you ask the cab so what you're seeing on tv recently mate all right and then see what they think that would be the cab the cab ranking the what oh that's for free come on mate seriously that is quite possibly the best thing i have heard for a very long while we should definitely do that We should film it.

33:36It'd be a bit like the James Corden thing, you know, where they're filming kind of in the car. Or we just go from the back. And they're singing along from the back. And then they're at the soundtrack in the car and everything. Cab rankings. Cab rankings. There we go. Come on. You had it here first. Got to be good. The other thing, actually, before we move on to Disney's campaign as well, the other thing that I can see from the data you did brilliantly, is very rare to get 100 % attribution on any ad because there are so many Christmas ads and people go, oh, was that the John Lewis one? Was it the M &S one?

34:05Right? That happens a lot. 100 % of people that saw it knew it was Asda. That's the other thing that was magical about it, is it was set in the store, but the green and all of it just made it unmistakably Asda. And, you know, advertising doesn't work unless you know who it is, right? No, 100%. So that was the other thing that worked very well. No, that's great. That's really good. It did help when it was green. It did. Well, I know, exactly. I did look at it and think, oh, yeah, nice one. Just the simple things like the green. Yeah, we played that game. We're like, what can we do with a Hulk? Nothing.

34:33Yeah. What about Shrek? Scary. Kermit the Frog. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's been used. No, it's funny. Actually, Kermit the Frog could do it, actually. It could do. I think they did at Warburton's a few years ago. Yeah, that did incredibly well, actually. That's a five-star, right? Anyway, yeah. Yeah, because it's got a dog in it. It's good, exactly. And we know that dogs help. Well, I did forget to mention earlier, by the way. So Vinny, I think, from the System 1 database, is the highest scoring charity ad of all time that doesn't have a dog in it. Yeah. Yeah, if I could have got a dog in. There needs to be like a dog kind of adjustment like kind of thing on ads.

35:08Yeah, there should be. Definitely the dog scale. Yeah, the bone scale. Where is it on? Listen, if I could put a dog in every single one of my ads, I would do. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. It's every year we do this. Well, I say every year. For the last two years, I've got Ritson on the podcast talking about the best campaigns of the year. And most of them make complete sense. Oh, yeah, get it. That was really good. And there's always like a fairly average dog ad. You know what I mean? And he's like, what? Listen, listen. I'm like, look, it's the dog factor. It defies. Yeah, the dog factor. So, yeah, that's not a bad thing.

35:39Nothing can be done about that. Oh, I'm with you. So I guess the obvious creative question then becomes, what on earth do you do, having probably made the happiest ad of all time, what happens next? Let's start with this question. When do you start thinking about next Christmas? When does the brief land for you? It's an always-on brief. So it's not, oh, my God. So here's the thing. We did not think, I think it was about January, February, we were not sitting there going, oh, how do we top elf? Right? Because as soon as you think you have a bar to hit, it blocks you. Christmas may be seen as our Super Bowl, but it is the biggest trading time for a supermarket.

36:25So it would be naive for a creative to think, oh, well, we did Elf here. Why don't we do do do do do do and just think that the top layer is everything. It's not. There's some serious money trading. There's a lot riding on Christmas, not just financially, but emotionally. You cannot let a family down at Christmas. They have to be assured of price, especially these days, and of quality. So the first thing you look at is what headwinds are we going into? What business problem or opportunity do we need to get around? So Asda's thing has been a perception of quality. Their quality was not seen as good as a lot of its contemporaries.

37:16They have spent millions on getting their quality right. And all year we have been doing things called the Asda Taste Match, where everybody else has been price matching, we've been taste matching. Independent tests have told us that literally we've got 200, 300 items, I think. I think it's 200 items that taste as good as or better than Marks & Spencer's for an Asda price. They have massively invested in that. So we knew that quality was going to be the one big signifier. They trust us on price now, but quality, Christmas, sometimes you trade up. Yeah, you don't need to with Asda now. We knew that that was a thing.