Greg Hahn on why the biggest risk you can take is to be ignorable

27:32Maybe there's a similar thing in feedback. We feel like, you know, twice as much pleasure from saying why something won't work as we do from supporting it to work. Yeah, it's just easier. And trust me, we're not just, you know, like pushing all the flaws under. there's a time and a place and certain criticisms and certain things that, and the way you do it in a sense of like, we should be aware of this. We should know about this. How can we solve it? And if we can't solve it, maybe we should move on. You know, like you got to let go if it's wrong. But sometimes people, you know, the energy starts going the wrong way and people just start piling on for no reason.

28:08Now, do you want to talk about the movie trailer you made or didn't make for JCPenney? as well because um explain that to anyone who's not heard about omitted because i think it's very very clever what you created yeah well they have a partnership with ashley grant graham who's this very popular influencer and model that does clothes for larger size women and very high style very fashionable clothes and it's part of jc penny's you know core is that they're inclusive everybody so they have a great line of fashion for for ashley graham that they were coming out with and we wanted to just subvert expectations again and one of our creatives or planners found a statistic that like you know 67 of the population can be considered plus side but in hollywood the representation of plus size women is like three percent so we made a trailer of the movie you will never see and it was called you know something gone missing or something like that and it was this high stylized trailer for a movie and then we revealed that this is a movie you won't see because Hollywood won't let you.

29:14And it's just throughout the trailer, you saw amazing clothes, high style, shot like, you know, Michael Bay something. And you wanted to see it. And then you realized that there are things stopping you from seeing that. And that's the system. So, you know, it was championing a cause and also highlighting some clothes. I love that. It's also tapping into something very true about culture and about how we represent people. don't represent people and how we how we're made to feel when we see the culture yeah and like we don't exist if you're not part of the elite you know in in that very narrow market that that tends to be featured and also jc penny for everybody right so that they are making clothes for everyone right and it makes complete sense to you know appeal to their core audience yeah yeah the whole brand campaign we launched for was this idea of of you know sort of the underdog getting getting their way you know being the sort of the envy of of everyone else when normally they aren't put in that position now sticking on the product theme one of my favorite case studies of yours is chilean sea bass like because i just think that was a genius bit of product design what was the thing what was thinking beyond that well i love these ideas that are just you know one small little change makes you know it's creative leverage one small change makes a huge difference and what we changed there was you know might might seem small to us but to a brand to change the name of their their core product was quite a big change so the idea was that they wanted to say that you know goldfish aren't just for kids a lot of adults eat them but they don't think of them as adult snack and a lot of times they don't want to admit that they eat them so you know take a taking a cue from vintage marketing we changed the name from goldfish to Chilean sea bass which is actually how Chilean sea bass the original name came about it's a fake name that they use for gutter fish or something it was originally called something else was it repositioning an unknown fish yeah it was repositioning an unknown fish that had a horrible name and nobody would order from the menu so they called it Chilean sea bass so in a nod to that it was like why don't we call goldfish Chilean sea bass and we just changed the packaging changed everything so suddenly now it's the same exact product but it's for adults and um you know it ended up working very well for them there are so many things aren't there like that like that where i think oysters were the same oysters were a very very cheap it's all a mental game right and they reposition them as this high-end kind of luxury food yeah i heard the story might have been rory that was saying about potatoes where they couldn't get anybody to eat potatoes when there was you know very little food but potatoes left in, I think it was in London.

31:57So what they did is they ordained them the king's food and put like, you know, guards around them. So suddenly they became desirable because they're scarce and only the king is able to eat them. Whereas they had tons of them. They just wanted people to, you know, desire them. That would explain why there's a variety of potato called the King Edward. Yes. That would be why, right? That's where the name would have come from. Wow. Yeah. We've solved this one. Yeah, I know. One of my favorite case study is yours. And it's relevant because I'm going to be chatting to the CMO of Chili's this week, actually.

32:31And bear in mind they're in casual dining. This is very competitive. And they've delivered. They've now become the second largest casual dining chain in the U.S., 19 consecutive quarters of growth. And last year, 31 % growth, which is exceptional for a casual dining chain. That marketing team is incredible. Yeah. On all cylinders. They work with a few agencies, but just across the board in all dimensions, they're on product, on the way they position their product, on the way they go to market, on the way they just handle all their communications and social and treat their agencies. They're great.

33:06And their stock, ever a case for proving unignorable works, their stock has like tripled. A lot of what Chili's have been transformed is how they show up online, become a very buzzy brand. Lots of people are talking about them. um what is it you've done to help them create that online just you know uh reputation yeah i mean again chilies does work with a few agencies and all those agencies are great and doing some good stuff what we've focused on is like listening to what's going conversations that are happening and they have a pretty active you know fan base so to speak and finding what's culturally relevant and what people really love and have always loved about chilies and what makes them different you It's the core things.

33:49Something about the experience of dining in the Chili's, which is really special, and a lot of it comes down to the atmosphere, but a big part of that atmosphere is these red leather booths that you sit in. And there seems to be a lot of passion around them. So we took the red leather and turned them into cowboy boots and did a brand collaboration with them and sold for thousands of dollars, sold out like that. But just igniting some... It was the actual Chili's leather. Yeah, it was from the actual booth. From the actual booth. Yeah, and we... That was really cool. He made some really cool boots and sold for thousands of dollars and just igniting the passion.

34:24One of the first things we did for them is we learned that somebody had catered their wedding through Chili's. Really? And it was a big wedding. It wasn't like just family or friends over in someone's backyard. They catered their whole wedding from Chili's and it cost them like$300. Compare that to tens of thousands that most people spent. That's a great hack, actually. Yeah. I imagine people were delighted. At weddings, you're usually starving because you've had canapes and champagne all day. Yeah, and it's good food. Desperate for a big burger. And they were proud of it, and they should be. And what happened was that it became kind of the viral things.

34:58Everyone was like, do you see this? They came to a whole wedding. They're like, what is it? Saying the same things you were. So we did an activation with them on Instagram or TikTok that we said the first person that proposes to their their fiancee soon-to-be fiancee at a chili's captures on tape we will cater to their wedding so we got tons and tons of videos of people proposing to in chili's good yeah yeah and the surprise is it's all genuine and i mean i'm sure some people may affect it but we've got some really genuine holy shit and you know the whole restaurant gathered around them and it was really fun content and we end up yeah catering a couple weddings for people and the cost of that is hardly anything, right?

35:39It's a bit of free food, isn't it? But the publicity is amazing. Yeah. So they're really good at listening to their customers. I think that's the big thing and creating value. I mean, the person that is putting together all of this, you know, George Felix is like the master. What does he do so well, would you say, as a CMO? I think he's just really smart at finding the value in what the brand brings and trusting people. You know, he surrounds himself with really good people and trusts them and knows how to guide them. You know, it's that easy. It's that difficult, right? And how long has he been doing his role for?

36:13I think he's been there a couple of years. We met him through Tinder. He was at Tinder. And then when he took the job, so it's been less than five years. When he took the job at Chili's, you know, we started working with them from there. And before that, he was at KFC. He was at, you know, good work follows George. So we tried to follow George too. And what's he like to work with day-to-day in terms of how you and his team collaborate? Very collaborative. And they're open. And it's never us and them. It's always all of us. Yeah, yeah. Any marketer should study that team. They're great. Yeah. Yeah.

36:50It's not just my word saying that. Look at their stock price. The stock price is amazing. It's crazy. It's absolutely flying. I thought I'd ask you, what's the most dangerous piece of work you've done that we haven't talked about, would you say? Oh, I don't know. It's hard for me to say because dangerous. I'm asking you between your children here a bit. But there must be, okay. Yeah, I don't know if I have an answer to that. Do you have a piece of work that you're especially proud of? Some for different reasons. I mean, it's so hard to say, honestly, just because I get excited about every piece of work that we put out there because we don't have any fillers, you know.

37:29And I realize that any client that puts out work is, in some sense, taking a risk. So what we try to do is push that as far as we possibly can and then mitigate those risks by being smart about how we get there. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I want to move on, if I can, to your view on the future state of marketing and where we go next. Because obviously what you've created is something incredibly exciting and mischief. And you're solving big business problems in a very, very creative way. So I thought I'd throw a few topics at you just to react to and tell me where does it go next? So let's start with pitching, right?

38:08Because I know you've got views on pitching. What's the future of pitching look like? Well, more and more, the way we have found pitching to end up is like you'll get a call from clients who are interested. They're looking at a few agencies. The way we like to handle these kind of things is like let's get to know each other first. Let's do a chemistry session and let us show you how we think. And if you still want to do a pitch, we can talk. But most of the time, we won't go through that process because we feel like if you know our work, we connected, and you understand how we think, then why not get to work, right?

38:40I think that there's a lot of wasted effort and passion that goes into pitching that could be spent working on the actual business. And also, I mean, to give you feedback as well, what I find compared to most other agencies, you're very transparent about the questions you ask, things you stand for, the process you go through. Even the strategy you created for 2B is easily accessible online. The work and the results. Yeah, people know. I don't really know what else I'd be asking. Yeah, right. I think the biggest thing and the most important thing is do we connect as people? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's probably the chemistry question.

39:14Yeah, that's the most thing. like we we've had great brands come to us with healthy budgets but we just say no because the chemistry wasn't right and it could have been us could have been them but we you know just didn't feel like we would be partners against you know sitting around the table in wanting the same thing you reminded me of something i went years and years ago i was on a panel and it was probably about a hundred people from creative agencies and i was the one client on the panel and we were talking about pitches and whether we should ban pitches right i can't tell you how emotional it got yeah people felt so strongly about pitching and why they shouldn't have to pitch and how much time gets wasted and you know how little money ever gets paid and how unlikely you are to win and now i i agree with them but i did make one point and i said don't forget that your customer has a customer and for me i was this is 9 p.m in an evening and next on the next day i was getting up at 4 a.m.

40:12to drive five hours to a famous chain in the UK called Greg's the Baker. And I was pitching myself to try and maintain my listing in Greg's and they were my number one customer. So I just said, if you can understand the need of your customer's customer, you don't need to pitch because if you can solve that problem, you'll never need to pitch again. That'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with the 100 people on your, or the 200 people at your panel because, yeah, I do think pitching is sort of a wasted exercise. I understand why it's done and that it needs to be done in certain cases, but I think there are much better ways to find a partner.

40:47It's like going on The Bachelor for brands. It's heartbreaking. And in terms of mischief, what's your percentage of pitches versus not? Does most of your business now come without a pitch? We do pitch, and like I said, there are certain circumstances that the measures are put in place. So it feels like it's a worthwhile endeavor. But most of the part, you know, for most of the things we've taken on, we've either started with a pitch and we sort of talked to them and decided there's no need to do a pitch. Or it's just come cold to, you know, straight on no pitch, which I feel like there's a good, you know, trust built at the beginning of a relationship.

41:29They like the way we work. And we always have a good chemistry session. You can't, you know, we won't take on a client that we don't feel like we could, you know, partner with. They have to be people that we like, first of all, in brands we believe in and people that we feel will understand our mission and we connect with. I totally agree. I always think it's a mark of the strength of your brand when you don't have to pitch. It's a really good indicator, isn't it? The less you pitch, the stronger your brand is. Yeah, we set that out from day one. It's like our best new business tool wants to be the work we do for other clients.

41:59And if you can keep that going, that sort of flywheel, you know, you start doing better work for clients and then other clients see it. And then, you know, hopefully that spins into better work. And as you said at the beginning as well, the clues in the title. Mischief, right? You know, you buy mischief, you get mischief. What's your view on the future of social media? It's interesting. I've heard people say it's going to end because of AI agents and bots and robots talking to each other. I still think there's going to be a need for people to connect. I hope that it'll get back to what social media started which is people connecting one-on-one or one-to-many versus just people you know or companies kind of interrupting that or bots interrupting that I think you know if you go back to the early days of social media there's such a unity there and you connected with people now it's it's become a media space I know I mean I mean my biggest social media is LinkedIn and even on LinkedIn which is professional I used to be I got content from people I wanted to hear from.

43:00And now I get content based on what they want to serve me. And it's even more extreme on the other platforms. And it's 95 % what they want you to see rather than what you want to see. Or what you accidentally clicked on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Got to bed, right? You're looking something up for, you know, for some random reason. Now the algorithm thinks you're into shark costumes or something. Yeah, totally. Going back to 2B. What other agency work are you envious of that you look out there? These days? Yeah. Always widen. you know uncommon of course you know sort of our pure playground Bear Meets Eagle on Fire love their stuff and a couple good agencies out there and which bits of the work do you admire from afar the Telsco stuff for Bear Meets Eagle on Fire love the British Airways stuff like I mentioned pretty much everything that I see from Bear has been pretty great.

43:57And then Wyden, they've been knocking Nike out of the park various times since they got that count. So even today, there's great lines out there, great thoughts or activations, whatever. They just always come through. In terms of Wyden, I really admire their McDonald's work. Super insightful. It's spot on. The activation they build around it is really, really good. And the results are amazing. And it's like, I mean, McDonald's is a cool brand now. It wasn't a cool brand 10 years ago. Yeah, they've done an amazing job with it. Yeah, incredible job. Yeah, and I think they've done it through simplicity, like finding human insights and connecting with those.

44:37You know, I met the guys behind the work, and they did this massive road trip across America. It's like they put the hard yards in. Yeah, I've heard that. Going back to what unsuccessful people are not willing to do. Exactly. Drive across America and go to every outlet and talk to every person ordering every meal and then find out what works. But it also comes down to like the people who are approving that they had a good client who was willing to say yes. And it's remarkable how many times that leads to success, but how few people do it. Just every once in a while say yes. Yeah. Totally true.

45:07Probably an impossible question because you are doing it. But what would you do if you weren't afraid today? I know what you'd done originally because you did it. But today as you look ahead, is there anything that fills you with fear? Not on a general basis. I mean, I try not to, you know, push that down. Like, if I want to do it badly enough, I'll do it. But, you know, that question comes up all the time, though, when making decisions. I think any decision is based off of what's the more risky part and what are the rewards. and that it's just something you constantly remind yourself of like what would you do if you weren't afraid and we ask ourselves that in reviews and things like that all the time i think it's recognizing that it's a powerful force that is often unacknowledged acknowledging it and and bringing it out as you know and i go why do i feel fear around this yeah and then what if i didn't and then what would have to have be true it's just so liberating like what if i didn't feel fear at this moment yeah and then suddenly you're lighter right your heart is a bit like more open and then good things happen from that totally the opposite is true when you restrict right because i kind of had the following question when i went independent on this podcast which was so what if i wasn't afraid i'll do this full time what would have to happen for me not to be afraid in terms of what would need to be in place for for for it not to feel like a fearful decision and to feel like an obvious decision and we're able to do that yeah yeah yeah well it was really good actually because it then focused my mind on the things i had to do to get in place whether it was kind of putting money aside whether it was kind of getting the right team in place whether it was you know i'm getting a sponsor or you know yeah what that question does is it forces you to find a way yeah yeah suddenly you're not thinking why you shouldn't do it you're thinking how can you do it yeah exactly yeah and you end up in questions you never thought like cash flow i mean this has been the thing that's like oh well i'd actually need to manage my cash flow or i'd need to have you know but not insurmountable yeah yeah everything yeah and then you think well what has to be true for that not to be a problem yeah etc etc you know you just keep following the logic yeah it's and any of that is better than living in regret or fear that's the most expensive thing you can have is regret and the other thing as well is you can never know all the answers in advance but you can know looking back at your track record of what is true every time so i know that you know more people want to work on the podcast i know that we'll get better guests i know that yeah i know today that there'll be good things that happen in the future as a result of this conversation we have today because i know that happens i don't know what it is yeah but i know it's going to happen and it's also backing it's looking at the data and go well the data says over seven years i've got enough evidence here that i don't know the answer but i know it's going to be good yeah that's confidence and experience exactly yeah what's the future of Okay, let me put some context on this question.

48:08Now, this is UK data, right? So it may not be the same in the US. But in the UK last year, headcount in creative industries dropped by almost 15%. It was the biggest decline in headcount in the history of the data, right? Worse than COVID, worse than 2008 financial crisis. To lose 15 % of our headcount in creative industries is an insane kind of thing. What will the future creative agency look like? Yeah, I mean, that is a staggering amount. I think, you know, that's people looking for efficiencies over effectiveness, I think. But for me, I think there's still this going to be a space or always be a space for thinkers, original thinkers and people that can bring themselves to the work.

48:52because there are just things that we do that as humans that AI won't be able to do. You have to find that and find, you know, what makes you unreplicable. And that's your strength. You know, I think people are worried about AI for the wrong reasons, which is AI is going to do stuff that is efficient, but they're not going to do stuff that's special. 100%. What does the future of the CMO role look like, do you think, asking for a friend. Well, I say asking for a friend, podcast host, but asking for friends. Asking for uncensored friends. Yeah. I think, I'm starting to see like the CMO has become a really important role and the more voice they're given, the more successful you see the brands.

49:37Let's take Chili's for example, right? And I think certain companies are starting to understand that and you see CMOs almost going over to CEO positions and I think that's a good thing. I had some really interesting insight in just after COVID actually. Someone wrote a report and they were looking at the perception of the CMO role with the CEO and the rest of the company during COVID. And there was a fascinating conclusion is that in times of crisis, everyone looks to the CMO to get them out. And when things are going well, everyone celebrates together. It's like success has many fathers, failures and orphan.

50:12And the CMO role is the one that in uncertain times, everyone's looking to go, where are we going next? so weirdly i've got a very contrarian view that i think now is an amazing time to be a cmo because if you're prepared to step into the void that's created by the uncertainty around ai and the uncertainty in the world and politics and everything else you're going to do pretty well because there's an absence of leadership and direction and the other thing is i did a cmo survey recently with tiktok and even though these are the best cmos in the world that i'm in that i'm surveying, 78 % of them said their CEO couldn't even articulate the marketing strategy, which I thought was shocking.

50:53Yeah. So the opportunity to kind of create the strategy, create the vision, deliver the idea is huge. Yeah. We all cite the companies that have done that as the example, but very few companies actually do that. Like the Nikes, Apple, these are the ones that always come up, but that's because marketing is so involved in every part of the business. I like that. Talking of the future, what do you want to achieve next, given all the success you've had with mischief over the last seven years? What do you want to achieve next in the next phase? Well, I think we've narrowed it down to, like, what is mischief about?

51:28What is it? And we want people to think of us as the impact agency. And that kind of goes on three measures. One is, one, have an impact on our client's business because, you know, why are we doing what we do? And that's to make some measurable results. and then we want to have an impact on culture. So we want stuff to be talked about and noticed and have people play it back to us without knowing we did it. It's like be out in real culture. And then the other thing is we do want to have an impact on the industry and change the way people think about how agencies need to run or what it needs to be like or what kind of environment is successful.

52:06And I think my biggest hope is that mischief spawns something and other people to start their own agencies. And our legacy is that we kind of ushered in a generation of a different kind of agency and a different kind of way of working. I love that. It's funny, actually, hosting our very first event we did last week, I think for the first time had that exact feeling you just described there. I suddenly realized there's almost 400 people in the room and loads of people are talking about the businesses they're going to start up, the jobs they're going to try and get, the networks they've built between them.

52:40I thought this is like, this is creating lots more than us. You know, this is like spawning a whole lot of things. The reason I started Mischief is when I was looking for a job, when I was in the opportunity after I got let go, I just thought like, I looked around, I was like, no one's having fun in this industry. Like, that is really sad. Like, there needs to be a place where people just enjoy what they do and do work that they want, you know, other people to see and that they're excited to get up every day. and you know we asked for advice but one piece of advice that's really stuck with me is that your life is made up of days and if you're not enjoying your days what's the point right so just make sure you're excited about what you're doing every day and there's got to be a correlation between how much fun you're having how happy you are and the quality of work you end up producing so it's a you know it's a win-win isn't it yeah yeah i think the world can see when you're enjoying what you're doing all right so talking about the future young people starting today entering the industry now, give me your advice to them.

53:40A couple of things I would say, and they're all kind of based off of the same thing, especially with the looming threat of AI. And again, another quote that has always stuck with me is that no one can beat you at being you. So find what makes you unique and make that shine. You know, the first place I look at when I look at a book is the about me section. That's where you really want to put your personality and your individuality in, because that will never be algorithmed out and, you know, no one will be able to replace that and then um you know learn the basics before you jump to ai learn how to write learn how to craft learn strategy and then you know make sure you're proficient with the with the latest tools but don't use the tools as a crutch use them you know as an aid as a um something to to amplify and maybe to round off then uh what's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given oh man so many the one i always come back to and this is just me personally as a you know coming up and trying to make something you know would be that uh successful people do what unsuccessful people aren't willing to do it becomes down to that right whenever you should think should i go this extra mile should i take this risk should i you just think like successful people do what unsuccessful people aren't willing to do i love that that's very good you know i read that when i was like in college somewhere just like you know looking through business books trying to figure out what the hell you know keys to success and all that kind of stuff and it's such like a soundbite from from some motivational speaker but it actually it's true but it talks to an important point which is there's a lot of work linked to success that people don't see right because they look at you and go oh you've been overnight success they don't see the times you're unemployed or the times that you ran out of money or the times that you lost the pitch or the times that you went five rounds to get the one thing that they see and celebrate.

55:34Yeah. Yeah. I think most people don't realize that. Scott Galloway has got a similar point where he says strategy is finding the very hardest thing possible to do. Because if it's really, really hard to do, it means no one else can do it, right? Which is kind of a similar way of saying that. Yeah. I love that. That's very profound. Yeah. Greg, thank you, mate. It's been great to catch up again. Congratulations on your continued success. And even since we last met, more awards for the agency in terms of most creative and innovative. So well done. Oh, thank you. Keep it coming and yeah, keep setting the bar high.

56:06Thank you. Thank you for having me again. And let's do it in another three years. We do. Amazing. So I hope you enjoyed that episode of Uncensored CMO as much as I enjoyed making it. Now, by the way, I've got a new newsletter. So if you'd like to get my thoughts on the one thing that I take out from each episode every week, then do subscribe to the One Thing newsletter. so I'd really appreciate it. Also, I have another podcast. Just launched Uncensored Renegades with the fabulous Cori Marchesotto. She is one of the world's best CMOs. She's an absolute rock star. Every week we pick one topic, spend 20 minutes trying to fix it.

56:44So check out that. It's in your feed, Uncensored Renegades. And finally, I want to give a huge thank you to my sponsor, System 1. They generously provide so much support for this podcast. It would not happen without them. So big thanks and lots of love to System 1. I'll see you next time.

57:02Greg Hahn:What do you enjoy reading, Greg? You mentioned you were reading books as a youngster and you found that quote. Trash. Yeah. Yeah, but people who know me know this. Like most of the content I consume like at night after work is just like 90 % of it has to do with murder. Unsolved crimes. Well, do you know what, funnily? Rory Sutherland, you were recording yesterday. Yeah. He said, ask Greg about his serial killer obsession. Oh, my God. It's not the serial killer. I should probably stop saying that. That's like getting me known for something. But I love watching true crime and like mysteries and, you know, old crime shows.

57:44I just find it fascinating because it is a lot like what we do is like sometimes you have an answer and you try to figure out how to get to that answer. or sometimes you just start reading signals and you know what happened you know the result you know someone died but how the fuck do you get from point a to point b and that's kind of what we do is like you know you want to get these sales you know you want to create this impression but here are all the things out there how do you line them up right but um yeah or when i read it's just like airport novels are trash but every once in a while i try to like you know i have my favorite writers you know david sedaris i'll read anything he writes you know just because they're great with language and um you know certain things and i like books on psychology and anthropology and things like that when i'm feeling i need a little little education something more in my head besides

58:40Greg Hahn:how to you know solve a crime yeah why do you like the trash books is it just escaping escaping yeah it's just easy you know like why anybody likes some junk food i guess but you know i i do think that there's something to be learned from anything i used to go out of my way to read books that were not written for me like chiclet so to speak when back in the 90s just because i like to see how other people think and what other people are exposed to and if it's if it's not written for me that makes me more interested in it