How a new brand character challenged Whisky conventions to help The Woodsman double market share

0:06Welcome back everybody to the Uncensored CMO. Now in this episode we're talking about whisky and no ordinary whiskey. We're talking about the Woodsman, one of the most successful blended whiskeys of the last few years. Now they've got one of the top performing campaigns on the System 1 database. So I want to catch up with the Chief Creative Officer of Mr. President, who came up with the campaign, and the Marketing Director at White and Mackay, Janice, to find out more about the campaign and importantly, how it delivered really substantial results for the brand. This is a great episode. I know you'll enjoy it.

0:37Here it is. Welcome to you both. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. Really looking forward to this talk as well. Like Woodsman, one of the surprise kind of chart-topping brands of last year, I think it was the most successful on the System 1 database as well. So congratulations. Thank you. Maybe we should start a bit, go to the origins of Woodsman. Where does it come from? And I'm fascinated to know the whisky category is kind of famously steeped in history and tradition and that kind of thing, isn't it? So what were you trying to do when you invented Woodsman? Well, the whole premise of it was we wanted to breathe new life into the blended whiskey category.

1:15So dominated by some four key players doing massive category, doing well, but actually declining over the long term. So really it was around how do we recruit younger people into whiskey, into scotch and make it kind of the brand that they want to drink. So it was actually about growing the category from a different audience from where we were currently. and while there was other whiskeys doing that so American Irish Scotch weren't doing that so that was our challenge yeah and how do you go about doing that I'd love to know how because it seems like a it's you've got some big spending competitors obviously Diageo, Johnny Walker, brands like that you know got huge spend dominate distribution as well it's a category that seems very fixed in its ways I mean I had a short stint in kind of whiskey years ago and all the mystery around it and all the kind of way you talk about it and the serve you know do you mix it or don't use it ice is it not ice there's a huge amount of kind of staged tradition about it so how do you change that it feels like a really big challenge to get people to change how they see the category and how they use the category as well i mean like you say there's so many traditional barriers and when you speak to consumers they either think it's um you know there's too many rules they don't let you say they're not allowed to mix it um it's too exclusive it's uh you need to know before you ask about it otherwise you're going to look stupid so there's lots of yeah a lot of baggage that people have about ordering a whiskey or buying a whiskey and so it's how do you know how do you cut through how do you communicate that we don't care actually this is about you just enjoying it about drinking any which way you want to and it's about just choosing a really really um nice drink on the occasion and what you want to drink it so really appealing to that like modern spirits consumer um and just like kind of throwing off the shackles and saying welcome you know rather than stay away it was from early doors it was kind of we need to make a whiskey campaign for people who aren't that bothered by whiskey and certainly not by the world that it they think that it inhabits like the the foggy moss and the kind of this the stern looking stag and the leatherback chest it wasn't about that at all and actually i remember you guys were saying we need to try and think more of a beer think more of who we're appealing to think more of us kind of a beer drinker so the kind of the fact that we had to defy the kind of the category and be completely different to what everybody else was doing from the campaign point of view was kind of really clear and the store set out early doors i think a lot of the brands they just talk product you know and i think the category has been very guilty of just talking about the liquid and the barrels and actually when you speak to consumers you just realize again you know we are not the consumer they are not bothered about the barrels about the process about how long it's aging they just want something that they like to drink and know how to drink it and feel comfortable and confident when they're doing it so it's right actually why do we not talk to them about something that they might like on their level rather than trying to tell them stuff that they're not interested in knowing.

4:01You're right. It's an incredibly product-dominated category, isn't it, in terms of this many years in the barrel. This is the craft that we do to it. This is the beautiful product shot. I mean, the money that must get spent on just getting the glassware done in a certain light and the zest of lemons and stuff like that. It's incredible. People are really obsessed, aren't they, in this category with kind of how it looks. But I think that's quite off-putting, isn't it? I mean, you know, I was just saying to you earlier, I'm a very, very, very, very recent convert to whiskey. You know, he says at the age of 50 here, you know, it's taken me a while, you know, but it is quite intimidating, isn't it?

4:36All the stuff that goes around it. So how do you do it differently? I'd love to know how you how are you turning up differently as a brand? I think it's about, like you say, making it simple. So it doesn't have to be difficult because actually you're just drinking whiskey like you would any other spirits on the occasions. and it's about really understanding what is that occasion that you want to have this drink and then making sure that you're kind of to see it to believe it so showing that and also just kind of showing actually you know we don't take ourselves too seriously it can be really fun and actually you know whiskey drinks it's a nice industry to be in and actually we should share that more that conviviality side of it rather than that serious um side of the drinks i mean obviously it's a craft it takes a lot of time to make really good whiskey uh there's a lot of um time effort investment that goes into that but really you want to just share it and enjoy it so it was about getting that sentiment over and getting that kind of emotional connection no i had a very small stint in working for suntory and managed to go to yamazaki where they make the sort of famous japanese whiskeys and they had a real problem managing demand and supply because i think they went and won a whole load of awards and became incredibly in demand and they had to wait about 10 years before they could catch up with themselves how do you balance the sort of demand and supply because obviously the more successful you are the more of a problem you actually give yourself it's a weird kind of dynamic isn't it really is and you have to be in the long term planning game i think that's the thing this is not a short term you can't just turn it around like gin or something that's really quick to make you know you have to be really thinking about the future of the company thinking about the future of the brands investing in the infrastructure and the casks in in the liquid um and actually then it is a really fine balance you know obviously working with the retailers working with the on trade in terms of getting that distribution and visibility and then that rate of sale and that can go either way you can be out of stock and that can be a massive problem but luckily uh hopefully we've planned well we've been ambitious and we have enough stock laid down to not be um off sale um and what about availability because because with any kind of you know high-end product like that where your soul says as much about you you know as what you're selling kind of thing so what was your approach to kind of seeding the brand and and growing it from the beginning so on woodsman it's really about appealing like i say to that mainstream consumer naturally they're everywhere and so this is about you know this isn't about just targeting a real niche segment it's about actually opening up the category to everybody so actually it's all about kind of the mainstream retailers mainstream on trade amazon you know e-commerce so it's actually about how much distribution can we get can we be in all the places that our consumer is um so that's been the target is kind of trying to increase that distribution how about how about overcoming the perception barrier because when you say whiskey to be i mean a lot a lot of people go oh that's gonna be a that's a tough one you know i mean i know going back to japan actually they they kind of create this thing called a highball uh which which absolutely transformed kind of whiskey in japan so how do you get people to actually you know overcome that because it's also quite expensive i mean i know it's cheap for whiskey but it's still a quite a big outlay isn't it well it is and i think we're actually looking at different ways of banishing the myths so like you say or you know on the face of it it's like expensive for a 70 cl bottle of whiskey you break that down per serve it's actually probably cheaper than a beer or a glass of wine or, you know, something else that you might buy.

7:47And so it's about actually just telling the facts and, you know, having that cost per serve rather than cost per litre on the labels. It's about showing the serve. It's about inviting people in and saying, have this whichever way you want it. How about trying it with Coke? How about trying it with ginger? Offering some suggestions. And then, you know, obviously the comms campaign is critical because it's around actually getting that top of mind awareness to then bring people into the fixture. and hopefully be in with a chance of them choosing you when they're faced with that wall of whiskey in the retailer or at the bar.

8:19I think, yeah, how you behave, how the Woodsman now behaves, it conveys that. It conveys that there's less barriers. The nature and the tone and how it's all been kind of approached, it's less prohibitive. It's kind of you understand, maybe not directly the key, but they understand that that's more accessible to them. They can buy into that and relate to that much more. Like the product shop we talked about earlier, the end shop was always going to be a mixer. It was never going to be kind of straight, just because you said something like, do you want a gin? You'd never think, oh, I'll have that neat.

8:46So the mixer is not a bad, kind of like secret, dirty sort of secret. It's kind of like, no, it's part of it. And we just want you to enjoy. And that was kind of always really clear. So I think having that kind of behaviour and acting in that way, I think it conveys that people understand that it's kind of, it's one that's sort of suitable for them. Yeah, I tell you. Well, I think that's something that stood out about the campaign last year is how it kind of defied the category conventions, as it were, which made it stand out. And it got an amazing response, as we know, on the system, on Database.

9:09So top spirit ad, well, number six spirit ad of all time, I think, and certainly the number one whiskey ad, which is amazing. So congratulations on that. I'd love to talk a bit more about the positioning as well, the well-earned positioning. I quite like it. I mean, I was just chatting to you earlier, wasn't I, about it? I was just over in New York and I remember raiding the mini bar at the end of a very, very long day. And actually, I would have a whiskey. It was just like the perfect kind of, ah, right, you know, that's been a busy day, but it was a lovely kind of moment to sort of relax to.

9:35So when I saw your position, it kind of really resonated as an occasion. So where did you uncover that insight and how did you get to that positioning? It was like a consumer insight, as you say, of having that kind of like, I just want to kind of reward myself with something nice, something a little bit, something at the end. But we were really clear that it wasn't a reward for a big endeavor. This wasn't kind of you've done something loads and you really have to really earn it. Again, that would fall into kind of the category norm, I think. I think this was always about honest everyday endeavor.

10:00This is always about being there. You've done something great. You've earned yourself a well-earned woodsman. so it was kind of like there were some intrinsics there as well about like this up the the barrels are twice age and they're kind of like twice fired as well consumer doesn't care about those but there were some kind of truth and intrinsics from the product outwards but i think it was just more that insight of the consumer let's just kind of reward people for kind of doing the do and reward life's doers you've done something you know honest endeavor you've earned yourself a woodsman i kind of wanted that to come across that it was a reward but it was kind of a very attainable one and it was about that everyday endeavor as well so it was like you know what we find is there's a big barrier there because people save their whiskey for a special occasion which obviously reduces the amount of occasions you have which reduces your rate of sale so it's about actually how do we bring this into the everyday and like i say keep this at the top of mind like if you were going to have a gin or a wine or a beer how do we get woodsman into that kind of frame of reference um so those honest everyday endeavors and just that kind of you know everything in moderation was sort of where we really liked that insight that the consumers were telling us about you You didn't have a very famous actor walking down a mountainside with a six-minute speech to camera about the kind of lengths they went to to create something.

11:09That's kind of what you imagine in your head, isn't it, is the ultimate whiskey ad. And this is like the complete antithesis for it. So for people listening, because most people will be listening, can you describe the ad you made and how you went about it? I mean, maybe, John, you could tell us the origin story of the idea and bring it to life for us. Well, I think it's called The Woodsman. So I think when we were kind of briefed on we need this sort of campaign and we had the well-earned positioning there, how do we kind of bring this to life? And I think the name itself has got a character. It feels like there should be a character attached to the brand.

11:37Maybe not a physical one, but it needed, it certainly needed a voice, needed a personality. If it's ending with the woodsman, you need to kind of, the brand needs to adopt something. We had this, I would be lying if everyone presented ideas. There wasn't lumberjacks in some of the stuff that we kind of came back with. There was different forestry and woods. And we kind of tried lots of different things. But when the team sort of came back with beavers, let's have some beavers. Let's have beavers as our heroes of the ad. It's one of those ones where you hear it, you're like, I love it. I don't know why yet, but I love it.

12:06That feels like that's the right one. And the way they kind of sold it was it just felt right. Because when you do start, I think when the consumer sees it, they just like it. They love it. It's a tale of three beaver brothers. Oh, they might not be brothers, but let's say they are. Kind of just working hard, doing their do, working in the forest as beavers do. It's called Beavering Away for a Reason. And all they're doing is they're working hard together, building something, which results to be a kind of a jacuzzi at the end. And they just sit back and reward each other with a woodsman at the end of it.

12:34And I think it's fun, it's enjoyable, it's really relatable. But I think when you start to pick it away, it's the woodsman, Beavers bloody love wood. I mean, they really do love, they really famously love wood. It kind of all just kind of makes sense. And I think given that they're kind of these characters, I think people, friends, potential drinkers kind of can associate with them more because you're not pretending to project my life on me as I am now. That's impossible to do, I think. So I think that's how it kind of came about. And then presenting it to you guys, it was the one that immediately kind of stuck out and resonated and you kind of gravitated towards.

13:07Now, I'm feeling for Janice at this point because I can hear your pitch quite clearly. But my limited experience of traditional spirit businesses, this is quite a challenge to the normal way of doing things. How did it go down back at base? It was interesting. So the brief was very much like, please do something different. We need to stand out. We don't have the resources to go big. Like you say, we've got some big competition out there who have got big media budgets and we don't have that. And we really, we had this positioning. We'd done kind of well-earned. We'd done bits and pieces on radio before, but we hadn't had that emotional campaign or that kind of center of gravity.

13:42And we needed something that could go across multiple channels. So we knew it was a tough brief. And then coming back, I think, I can't remember if it was the first or the second route that Mr. President kind of presented to us. I could not see past it. It was after you've got that in your head, everything else just, you're actually thinking, what were those other routes? You know, like it just, it just seemed like it was, it was memorable. You knew you'd seen something different. It really fitted with actually the brand truth. So, you know, the fact that, you know, it's Scottish, these are animals that work with wood, they are kind of craftsmen, craftsmen.

14:19You know, there was a lot of synergy with quality, with what we wanted to get across to the consumer about our product. This wasn't about kind of diminishing the quality of the product in any way, but just about opening it up to that sociability. And it really, really did that. So I think, you know, straight up from the bat, it was like, actually, I really, really like it. And actually, I want to present this internally because we've never seen anything like this in any kind of pictures before. And the reaction? The instant reaction from my sales team, from my marketing colleagues was we love it.

14:53They were all kind of quite shocked. But then there was that kind of wry smile that sort of actually this could be really good. It's very different. It's really outside of the comfort zone, let's say, from probably what White Mackay have presented on our brands before. I don't think we probably could have done it on any of our other brands, if I'm honest, because, you know, obviously they come with history and with certain kind of expectations as well. so we felt a bit freer on woodsman as a relatively new brand to be able to do something different but presenting that to the board to say this is the big idea this is what's going to underpin the growth for the next few years this is a five-year plan that we need to kind of all hold hands and agree to was an interesting i love those moments they're they're those tumbleweed moments where you're so convinced by you look around the room and just go okay okay And I was so passionate about it, you know, especially when you've lived with it for a few weeks, you know, and you've worked it all up.

15:47That's the challenge with these situations, isn't it? Because I know in my experience, you kind of, you know, you go quite far down a route, don't you? And you get more and more excited by it. And then you realise you're presenting to a room cold, who've never, never sort of, you know. So how do you help with that? Well, I think that's, it's a really interesting, because I think there was actually, mad as this sounds, it was actually quite a sensible decision to do beavers. We do actually have the rationale to kind of back it up, as I just said, about the kind of indigenous to kind of Scotland, live in the woods, work really hard.

16:15It's called Beavering Wave kind of for a reason. And so it's kind of, there is all this logic. And when we presented it to you guys, we made a conscious decision as an agency to hold that back, like present the idea, because that's how the public will see it, but then arm you guys with the thinking, with the rationale, with the strategy so that there's a bit of rigor that's gone into it so that when you are when we sent you into that room cold to print to these peoples it'd be like see what you think but we do have we have this sort of to back it up so we were really confident that it was exactly the right thing to do it's kind of yes it was different but again that was the right thing to do there was there's zero point particularly with the spend that we had there there was zero point just going into it and being mistaken for someone else or just or worse not being noticed at all so everybody said we needed to be distinctive we need to be kind of memorable we knew with barry and his beavers we then had an asset which we were going to be able to use and an asset beyond just a something to slap on things it actually as you said it stood for the brand values it's a beaver for a reason and it kind of yes there will be times where it is just a beaver and that makes it recognizable and undoubtedly woodsman but it also allows us the brand to sort of take on the other behaviors of it being well-earned and kind of have activations way beyond telly and the like so who chose barry then is that was there like a short list of names he came up with that was the creative team i think it was just pure alliteration came to play there the the other two the director on the shoot named them after his mum and dad um i've forgotten what they're called now was one graham graham and gertrude i'm gonna say let's say let's just say it's gertrude he'll tell me that was wrong but barry barry and his band of beaver brothers i think the alliteration was just something that we couldn't help but kind of name him and coin him i mean i mean there's a lot of obvious stuff in the campaign one of the things that you've already talked about i think it's amazing is how the kind of communication idea in the products are so interwoven you know you see it's partly why you had that gut reaction i think isn't it you go yes it's telling our story it's authentic to what we're about which which is quite hard to get to sometimes and the other thing is you kind of entertained in a category that's really about education i mean it's like perfect serve here's the history of you know the the barrels made in 1870 or whatever you know and and you went a completely different direction which entertained but we know of course from you know marketing science that entertaining people is the way to kind of win them over and you know be remembered which which is fantastic um let's talk a bit more about barry though because um you kind of created a brand character how important is it to have a sort of a character uh because they're not that popular but particularly not in in the kind of whiskey category no and i think we know we're very we know we're a very regulated industry we have to be really really careful in terms of the uh like the characters the comms platforms you put across and as john already said like even trying to use people is always really difficult because it evokes reactions sometimes that you're not you're not really intending so um i think we were very aware that using a character wasn't going to be the smoothest ride and we weren't doing it just as a badge we were doing it because actually it did really fit with the strategy and with all the insight and with what consumers were telling us so it sort of felt like it did all come together and it wasn't just a token exercise it was something that could have longevity that could really fit with the brand that we could really see working across all those channels.

19:21And it was never the brief, was it? To be fair, it was never, it was never, we need our character. We need, we need our thing. It was never that. And from you guys to us and to me and to the teams, it was never that. And I think that could be a trap that I think brands could fall into. It was like, right, we need our, we need our character. Find a character, any character that'll do. It works on one level of like, yeah, there's a consistency. But I think as I touched on earlier, it's got to stand for the values of it and it's got to personify what the brand's all about beyond just visual recognition.

19:47So now that we've got him, I think, you know, It's absolutely about getting more people to see him in more places and all of those things. But it's him to be at the front and alongside the woodsman, genuinely going out there and rewarding our drinkers for honest everyday endeavour, knowing that he stands for that because he's a beaver. And that's just what they do. They beaver away. So really interesting thing about using a character rather than an actual person. Because when you show celebrities, you're sort of portraying who you think your audience is or who you're targeting. The genius thing about characters is, though, you kind of appeal to everybody, don't you?

20:17100%. And the narrative is very, very simple in the film. It's kind of, it's three friends helping each other out, doing stuff throughout the day, giving each other a hand, going about their business, finishing doing the do as they've done. And then they kind of build a jacuzzi, they sit back and they reward themselves. And that conviviality was really important to this drink as well. It's a social drink. So yes, people understood that it was what the occasion was, that it wasn't much of an occasion. It was just a reward for honest endeavour. But they could also see themselves in their sort of friendship groups and there were some funny things and some lovely little details we had with the director whereby we looked at our friendship groups and who it is and there was one that was slightly more portly than the others and one that was slightly more good looking than the others so there was a dynamic that we kind of created in the treatment of these beavers that kind of then started to bring that through but as you say people just like what they did and understood what that meant for them rather than us trying to shine a mirror back at them and saying this is you, this is.

21:08Now the other surprising thing I found about this is it's a funny ad and again in a very traditional category humour's not really used very much, is it? Was that a conscious decision to try and make something entertaining and funny? We definitely wanted a light-hearted view. And I think that was in the brief, which was how can we have the social aspect? How can you break down that convention of this being kind of a really serious, you know, usually I think you think of a blended whisky and you just kind of think, you know, maybe an older man sat by a fireplace in Scotland in the dark, solitary drinking, and actually on a special occasion.

21:42And so it was like, no, like we want this to be social. We want this to be about friendships. We want this to be about the reward for everyday endeavor. So yes, it was about opening it up and actually, what do you do when you're with your friends? You want to have a laugh. You want this to be entertaining. You don't want it to be too serious. So again, even though it probably wasn't so explicit and you don't really want a huge humor because it's obviously can be quite divisive. We liked the fact that Barry brought a little bit of lightheartedness to this. It was about let's not take ourselves too seriously because our customers don't.

22:12so let's actually lighten the way. It's something we forget, isn't it? That actually, you know, having a drink is a very social thing very much, isn't it? It's about enjoying time with friends and whiskey can sometimes be portrayed in slightly sort of sat alone in the library, you know, kind of filter. So you kind of convey that, you know, that social bit of it. Yeah, and it's not laugh out loud. There's no huge, there's a kind of a slight reveal at the end of the kind of thing. It's just, it's endearing and entertaining throughout and I think that also gives it the longevity, you know. It's kind of like the rug pull gags are brilliant.

22:43And I love those ads, but they don't necessarily have the longevity. And that's something we're really keen with this film, that it lives on. And we kind of like, we build this character moving forwards. And I think, you know, just the fact that he's a puppet as well, which is a very conscious decision we made, having that kind of imperfection, making it not perfectly, not kind of making sure. And there is homage to the great John West ad at the beginning, where we start on this and it is, are they real? Are they not real? No, they're definitely not real. So there was a definite homage to that.

23:13And I've seen on a few comments on LinkedIn, there has been reference to that ad. And I think our job is done because that's one of my all-time faves. But yeah, so I think just tonally throughout, it was just engaging and endearing, which made it entertaining. Now, for everyone who's watching, we do actually have Barry live on set here. So everyone meet Barry. They're going wave to the camera. Here he is. This is the... So is Barry a one-off or do you have to get Barry made? Spoiler alert. There are three in the ads. there are two made with three heads three heads three more head that's just efficiency there were some efficiencies we were doing to help our client friends out um to try and make it work for kind of the budget so yeah no there's there was three two two puppets three heads made um so that we could then make sure that there was three of them but yeah we kind of like we were just clever shot it in a clever way so that they always appeared on screen actually barry's got a question for you hang on a sec it's like oh he's checking about when he's going to get his commission yeah Yeah, his agents are honest.

24:08He's a tough guy. He looks lovely, but yeah, his rider list on set was quite long. Pretty demanding. One of the advantages, actually, isn't it? Of course, characters. He's not having to deal with agents and expensive usage rides that run out after a year. But talk us a bit about the craft, because there's a lot of lovely touches in the ad as well, isn't it? The voiceover, I thought was very great. The music, things like that. How important are those? Very. I mean, as you say, craft is always super important. But I think with this, we were always going to be treading a line of, we couldn't make this, whilst it was an animal, it could not be appealing at any point to children.

24:41So the crafting of it on one hand was kind of pragmatic. And then on the other, there was a real kind of creative choice. Very early, we decided we wanted these to be real puppets, really made. If we're a brand that's rewarding, honest endeavor, let's kind of reward people for making it. Let's reward the people who've crafted this and made this. Let's reward the puppeteers that have been painted out. Let's reward the people who painted out the puppeteers that are on it. And I think that was kind of really, really key. And I think we didn't want it to look too perfect because we didn't want it to appeal to kids.

25:09But also the way it moves and having that human, it's got a humanity. Even though it's a beaver, it's got that humanity to it because you understand that it's being moved by a human. I think that makes it more engaging. That makes it more endearing. And I think every single bit of this whole process, this ad, we had to be really, really careful that it wasn't too oversaturated. The colours had to be kind of muted in the grey that had to be sort of done. Arthur Smith, the voiceover, kind of like the gruffness of that. That was really, really important. The kind of the music being like, all kind of like bluegrass, kind of like spit and stalled us, kind of like, that was all kind of a conscious decision.

25:42We had mad, mad meetings in Mr. P about how bucked should his teeth be? How matted should his fur be? How gnarly should these guys be? Because we wanted them to be lovable and kind of endearing, but they couldn't be cute. At any point, could this ad be seen to be penis kids? So all these kind of things that we had to kind of walk a tightrope for, as I say, partly for legal reasons, partly it's kind of added to it and kind of the craft as well. But they're all conscious decisions. I mean, does this stuff, how do you sign that off then from a client point of view to make sure you're on the right side of the regulations?

26:15We were getting lots of advice. So we were following kind of a lot of the legislation from the ASA and all the guidance. Portman Code as well. The Portman Code, the team at Mr. P were being really diligent about dealing with kind of clear class right from the off. So we were very aware of the kind of parameters that we had to work within. And we just made sure that we were really considering every angle. You know, it wasn't in our interest to sort of do anything else because, again, we were on tight budgets. We didn't have loads of leeway. So we had to get this right from we went to shoot, didn't we?

26:46But there is no definitive when you speak to these lawyers and the clear cast. there is no you can definitely do that you can't it's in our recommendation that you may consider it so we've all come away i think with minor diplomas in kind of in legal and kind of like because they would say we suggest that for example there's the the lyrics in the song that are playing there there's part of our language that goes along with this like don't dilly dally do and don't you know a doer doesn't dither and do what those that do do when they're done doing we wanted this language a real sticky language to stick so we wanted this kind of like don't dilly dally do and don't dilly dilly to run throughout but it came back from clear cast is like yeah sorry no lyrics that's going to be appealing to kids so you're like on one hand and this is credit to the client they could be like do you know what guys good effort we're already kind of on an edge let's just cut the lyrics but i think we went away huddled grouped together why is it why is it per se like for us it's just a song that overlays the kind of the action but there was a scene of one of the beavers with the banjo playing the music so when we start to really think and kind to put on a different hat and be like i suppose if if a beaver is playing the banjo and that's part of the music you could assume someone could assume that they're also the voices and they're kind of the vocals to it as well so then we kind of took that scene out and it worked and it kind of flew but as i say the guys could have said yeah nice try john but let's just get rid of it like but they didn't so i think it's a real testament to us and the team my account team lily and julie were kind of like devil's advocate for a long time asking us on the question we're lots of crazy chats about the whole time but i think we then hopefully gave you the confidence then we kind of presented back that we've thought about all these things that ultimately as i said it was never guaranteed but we were pretty sure that we'd done everything thought about everything to make sure that it wasn't now you've also got a very productive working relationship to get to kind of what you're doing so james what are the secrets to kind of you know what you know picking the right team to work with and getting getting some good results from a client point of view i think it's about like you say seeing yourselves as one larger team so we're not on kind of two opposite sides we're all trying to get to the same objective and it was really important to us i think for us to be really open and transparent about what we were trying to do because and that and you know hopefully gives these guys the sense of you know they know exactly what we're looking for that gives them the confidence to push the boundaries a little bit you know we stick to our side of the bargain which is we've asked you to do this so now let's actually put you know let's stay true to that and be brave enough to kind of say do you know what like you've come back you've given us an idea that stands out now now we all believe it in our gut that this is the right thing to do so we're going to be the champions of that so uh like john said like there was loads of hard work like the teams did a brilliant brilliant job and it was back and forth like you know i suppose no road is ever that smooth or that straight uh you know to get really really good work but there was always that partnership there's always that sort of will to make it work and it wasn't ever at any point the kind of sense of right we're ready to give up here it was like we all believe this can do this and we can do this you know so i think having that kind of plan and all being really really committed to seeing it through it really helps there's a lot of trust a lot of partnership and i think just working as one team and kind of not you know like i say working together really that collaboration is really important absolutely it wouldn't happen it wouldn't it just wouldn't have happened that way as you say it just would have been diluted to be nowhere near as good as it was now or it would have just been parked and we would have gone back to one of those lumberjack ones which would which would have been a shame for everyone.

30:03I did like your point about what is what you asked for, right? You were asking to break category convention and do something different and appeals to everybody. So you got what you ordered. Let's talk about the results as well. So you smashed the system one test. Congratulations. How important is it to have the sort of data to back up the decision to get, you know, get everyone on the side? Oh, I mean, for us, I mean, the results are everything. I mean, we, you know, we need to deliver commercially in order for this to kind of continue to get the investment. So this was a bit of a risk for us.

30:30It was kind of one of our newer brands, You know, there's always other brands you can spend your money on. And so it's, you know, trying to get that share of voice internally is always really hard. What worked really, really well is our buyers, the retailers, they loved it. So it really gave us something to talk to them about. They were very excited by it. It gave us kind of, you know, we could take in, obviously, the ads, we could take in the puppets, we could really immerse them in sort of what we were trying to do. and so actually the sales results that came through really really started to make a difference really quickly so i know we talked like the long and the short but actually when you have a really good campaign i think we're all very confident in saying you will see instant results as well as then hopefully you know kind of that continual growth as we go through the long term so yeah so recruitment wise i mean if you look at the blended whiskey category uh this brand is now the only brand to be recruiting new consumers in um so it's actually kind of the category itself is It's relatively flat, but Woodsman's now up 35 % in value.

31:28I think we've recruited in 142 % growth in terms of new customers. You know, there's huge amounts of people who are discovering our brand because of this campaign. And I think if you put all the different elements together, you can just see it building and building, you know, and that momentum kind of grows. And retailers love that, don't they? Because then you've got a very clearly defined role in the category. You know, you're growing the overall, you know, pie for the retailers. That's really, really powerful. And you also touched on something I think that's not always understood is the importance that campaigns have in the buying relationship with your customers.

32:00Because they're looking for evidence that you're supporting the brand, you've got something exciting coming. And if they get behind the brand in store, then everything else works. People won't just see it, they'll also be able to buy it as well. Definitely. We've very much started to work on this whole philosophy of you can't just launch a product, you have to launch and love it. And like you said, the buyer's expectation is that you are going to be driving your brand and making sure that you are driving their category. and I think it's about understanding exactly what they need to get out of it for them you know then if their category isn't growing and your brands aren't helping that and they are going to delist you and the big guys are the only ones that are going to survive but we're giving them every reason to keep us in give us more shelf space give us the right shelf space and that all helps because it's you know it's like in any of the marketing theory it's all well and good having mental availability if you haven't got the physical availability you're not going to be able to be bought so the two have to go hand in hand we're very good at physical and I'm glad to say with this campaign we've actually got a lot better at the mental availability as well so yeah two things work hands in hand we sometimes forget we sometimes think about them doing different things but actually they you know they complement you a lot in fact my colleague orlando sort of slightly rebranded long and the short of it to talk about the short and the lasting is that when you do campaigns like this they're lasting effects you know that they it's not like you have to wait or some sort of moment in a year down the line for it all to take effect you know it begins today if it's good of course it begins then and it builds over time and i mean what we also see from the system on database as well is that the more good ideas are repeated and refreshed they just get better and better every time because familiarity breeds can you know um contentment rather than contempt is is the is the phrase we often use kind of thing so just touch on the results again so what what um what has it done in terms of because i believe the 12 weeks after you launched were pretty spectacular yeah they were huge i mean we've gone we weren't even in the top 10 of brands now we're kind of top 10 blended and there's some really big brands in there um you know we can see the trajectory carrying on so i think our objective was uh we want it to be about 20 up and like i say we've smashed that and we're sort of over 35 up we are on track to deliver our five-year plan so the investment's there and i think one of the things we wanted to do with this was to prove like with any new brand it's like actually do we understand the consumer can we appeal to the consumer and can we in a way understand the growth drivers that allow us to take this brand beyond the uk so at the moment you know very much the focus of the campaign and our growth plan was UK centric but our hope is that we will be able to take that into other markets kind of in the future and so we're enjoying the journey and seeing that growth and just even like that demographic of the people coming into the category so as we've talked about before like whiskey is quite a category dominated by an older age group whereas now I'd say 50 % of our woodsman drinkers are under 50 which for normal blends that's around about like 10 so um you know it's hugely different so again when we're talking to the buyers and we're talking to those who are in charge of the category we've got so many compelling facts to share with them that it's actually really you know the commercial argument is there as well as the consumer one so it's working well that's very very exciting well i'm dying to find out what happens next then so like you've had this sort of smash hit campaign as i They topped the System 1 charts and whiskey.

35:11It was very standout, very different. What do you do next? It's about carrying on. Like you said, actually, what we're really thrilled with is what we don't want to do on our tight budgets is constantly recreate the wheel and be constantly redoing creative. So now we've got this asset. That is what is now going to go through into the subsequent years, subsequent periods. So because we're all so excited about the results, we're very, very confident to run this again. We're very confident to take it into different trading periods. So, you know, Barry can appear through Halloween, through Bonfire Night, through Christmas.