How Guinness became Britain's favourite pint - Stephen O'Kelly, Global Brand Director

0:04Welcome back everybody to Uncensored CMO. Now one of my all time favourite brands ever is Guinness. So I'm really excited to be joined in this episode, the Uncensored CMO, by the brand director himself, who's responsible for the brand all around the world and is also a fourth generation employee, which brings an extra bit of intrigue to it. So I'm delighted to be joined by Stephen O 'Kelly. Welcome to the show. Delighted to be here. And yeah, no pressure being the fourth generation. You must be close to royalty in Dublin, I would assume, given that you're coming from four generations of Guinness working family.

0:38But you're the first marketer in the family, is that right? Tell me what your forebears did. Well, the rest are, there are much more engineering backgrounds. You know, there's always kind of creativity, you know, in the family. So my dad was very much into his music. So he played the piano, plays guitar, etc, etc. And we're all encouraged to play musical instruments. In my case, it was the violin. And of course, if you're Irish, you have either a hurling stick or a tin whistle put into your hand when you're four. So I guess we're really encouraged kind of to be very creative. So I know you did a podcast on Lego.

1:10So I was a huge Lego fan, you know, and loved building skyscrapers and all that kind of creative stuff. So I think, you know, creativity is very much kind of in the family. And I think very much kind of in my blood. So interestingly, I studied law. So yeah, an interesting path to get to where I am now. But I think after four years of law, I was pretty clear, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. and was very interested in kind of marketing and kind of, you know, again, kind of the kind of creative outlet from marketing. And, you know, again, I guess that kind of combination of language, which, you know, the legal training kind of really gave me, but also that creativity, it was kind of like the perfect fit.

1:51And of course, if you're going to work in marketing and you're an Irish guy, there's no better company to kind of cut your teeth than what was Guinness, of course, is now Diageo. So I started as a summer student, believe it or not, about a month after I left college and had the opportunity then to apply for the Guinness Graduate Scheme a few months later. And thankfully, after a very extensive process, which took six months, I managed to be successful. And that took me to London. So I trained as a graduate in London in Park Royal, which is where we had our brewery at the time and spent four years there, you know, working between trade marketing.

2:33I also did like sales for a year. So I carried the bag, as we say, and then finally worked in consumer marketing or brand marketing. And then back to Ireland where I kind of did a variety of roles, but like it was my first time to kind of work fully on Guinness as a senior band manager, which was really, really interesting actually and kind of my first of three trips you know on Guinness so senior brand manager back in kind of the early 2000s and came back as marketing director for Guinness Western Europe 2012 then I went to Nairobi in Kenya so I worked on the other side you know on Guinness there and then back to back to Ireland like to be global brand director so this is my third time to kind of work on Guinness and so far I haven't ruined the brands very good very good which is great well fourth four generations You've been on the brand three times, so hopefully we'll be expecting a fourth moment from you as well, just to complete the set.

3:25But before we talk a bit more about your career and the Guinness brand as well, how far back does your family go? And you must have grown up hearing stories about the brand and that kind of thing. Yeah, very much. And again, as I said, they're much more on the engineering background side of things and the more research and development angle as opposed to marketing or the brand per se. I mean, it was the brand we talked about around the table, because when you ask your dad, well, how was your day at the office? It turned out his office was here, you know, at the breweries. And, you know, if my dad were here now, he could regale you with so many amazing stories and lore and, you know, everything around the Guinness family and the workers.

4:08And what was always really clear, though, and we really appreciated was how Guinness looked after its people. And like fun fact, like the employees and their family, you know, had free medical care. And as a little kid, you know, I benefited from that, you know, as did my dad, my mom and the previous kind of generations. So I guess that's kind of something that always kind of struck me is, you know, that we had this huge support actually from the company. And you always, you know, really got the sense that the company genuinely cared about the welfare, you know, of its workers. And again, you know, for good reason, like sort of healthy and happy workers is good for business.

4:49But I think, you know, very much ahead of their time. And that probably goes all the way back, I think, to Arthur Guinness himself. you know the founding father and again you know when you kind of look at the archives and read kind of what was done for people kind of way back then he was such a visionary you know and so ahead of his time you know because you think you know employee welfare you know even sustainability oh gosh these are very kind of recent concepts but actually that was very much the heart of how the company operated from from day one we're here in dublin obviously now but if you go around the city, you'll see St.

5:26Stephen's Green, which was actually built and paid for by the Guinness family. And again, they saw the value of having those sort of amenities in the city. Only a few steps away from us, we have St. Patrick's Cathedral, which is one of the most famous cathedrals in Ireland. And again, the Guinness family paid to restore actually the cathedral because it was falling to pieces. And then there's a lot of housing that you'll see in the city centre, which again was built by the Guinness family for their workers. So yeah, of course, because it's such kind of a rich history and a storied kind of brand.

6:03Yeah, I grew up with it. And as I say, when I graduated and decided I wanted to build a career in marketing, there was just one choice in my mind, you know, and as I say, I was just lucky enough to be chosen. Now, for everyone listening at the moment, we are in the storehouse, as we record this, in the connoisseur bar, you've got a portrait of Arthur Guinness sat right behind you, or hung up, should I say, right behind you. Guinness is intrinsically linked to Ireland, isn't it? And I know we just had St. Patrick's Day. How important is the link between the two? And I know when I travel the world with the job I do, you know, St.

6:36Patrick's Day is celebrated everywhere now, isn't it? Yeah, it's really interesting, actually. I would say the link to Ireland is really, really different by country. So obviously in Ireland, it's, you know, essentially like national icon brands, like an emblem of Ireland. And even actually the harp on the glass is also the harp of the Irish government, except the Irish government harp is flipped the other way around because we trademarked it. Well, you trademarked it, you had the harp before the government did? Correct. Yeah, exactly. Before they kind of made it a national, whatever, you know, icon of the Irish government.

7:10And interestingly, if you get a letter with the Guinness harp in it, you're happy because it might be your paycheck or something nice. If you get a letter from the Irish government and the harp's the other way around, you're like, it's probably a tax bill. It's probably a tax bill. So yeah, it's obviously a huge band in Ireland. Like obviously in the US, you know, a lot of Irish diaspora kind of there, like very, very close kind of links to Ireland and Irish kind of culture. So that's a big, big part. And of course, same goes for GB. a lot of Irish diaspora, but also a huge kind of link to Ireland.

7:43I mentioned I was in Nairobi, in Kenya for two and a half years. So as marketing director out there for East Africa, you know, in terms of like their understanding of the link to Ireland, I remember saying, you know, hey, you know, Guinness from Ireland, you know, and they're like, where is that? You know, is that a small town in Scotland? And I'm like, OK, fine. And what's really interesting about like those countries and Africa in particular, where we've got a massive and very, very successful kind of business is they see it as their own. You know, so you go to Lagos, they see Guinness and FES as it is their foreign extra stout as Nigerian, you know, and same goes for Kenya, East Africa, and they see it as their own.

8:22And I think that's a wonderful thing because it makes Guinness like a naturally very multicultural brand and that makes it very different to other beers, which tend to be, you know, more international kind of premium, kind of they show up, you know, they make an art of kind of showing exactly the same, if that makes sense. Whereas for Guinness, actually, it shows up quite different. And you could say, gosh, that makes it complex. And it does, because we want to make the brand cohesive. But it makes us work harder to understand which bits kind of stay true, irrespective of the country or indeed, as you say, the link to Ireland, but then which bits we want to be different and should be different.

9:01And I just think it's fascinating when you go to the Caribbean or you go to Asia or, as I say, like some of our big Africa markets and the link to Ireland is not relevant or not even known. But that said, you know, you mentioned St. Patrick's Day. We just had our biggest ever St. Patrick's Day in Singapore of all places. Yeah. And I think we had up to 40 ,000 people. Can you believe I was trying to work out what percentage of the Singapore population that makes quite a lot, right? You know, So that's definitely not all Irish people kind of going to that. You know, so a huge congrats to the team.

9:33They did an amazing job. It was down in the Keys. And yeah, I think that was pretty much like double of where they got to last year in terms of attendance. So yeah, it's a truly global brand. I think we're in over 150 countries worldwide, which is why I look stressed. But it's an absolutely fascinating brand for that. You're clearly a brand on a roll. I mean, I know in the UK you achieved Britain's favourite pint last year. Massive congratulations. The Marketing Week made you brand of the year. But what I think is interesting, you've had three, as you talked about, three stints on the brand. When I was growing up, you know, Guinness was sort of like the old man's drink.

10:09You know what I mean? And it hasn't always been as successful as it is today. So I'd love to find out what the journey's been like and maybe what's the secret to its turnaround, its renovation to become the brand it is today. When I joined as senior brand manager, that was for Ireland only. And what was interesting at that point, because we'd just made ads like Surfer, etc., which again, you know, brought incredible fame, right, you know, to the brand. But there was a sense of, well, a lager was increasing in popularity and it was very, very competitive. But I think there was a sense of we'd forgotten about the quality of the pints, you know, and we hadn't spoken about that for quite a long time.

10:49So that was kind of the big, big task we kind of set ourselves to do was to kind of really elevate the quality of the pine to remind people of how natural it is. You know, so you've got your four kind of ingredients of barley, hops, yeast and of course water. And people didn't kind of know that and they'd kind of fallen out of love with the actual liquid itself. so it's kind of really interesting to kind of because I think that's a lot of the genesis of what we see now in terms of the emphasis we put on quality we have an army of quality ambassadors who go around like the pubs and ensure that the quality we have the five C's which is a kind of a blueprint I guess for quality and we invest a huge amount of money in ensuring that that quality kind of is there so that was kind of the challenge there and then if I kind of move on to when I was marketing director of Western Europe so again it wasn't just Ireland anymore now it was Ireland and GB and we also have partner markets in continental Europe so we've got a very significant business obviously between those three territories and gosh it was a really tough time actually for Guinness in particular in GB because we had the craft beer revolution happening so this was between 2012 and 2015 and in fact some of our biggest customers were introducing their own stouts and some of our most important customers were introducing their own stouts and we were being delisted.

12:22Guinness being delisted? We were being delisted. And I won't get into the specifics of any particular customers but it was very significant and of course we declared crisis and we created a project called Project Gladiator which was essentially a kind of, how would you put it, like a double down on the entree and really, really intensely kind of looking after our customers. And of course, you know, as kind of time went by, if I'm honest with you, consumers made the decision, you know, because the quality of Guinness was, you know, in a different league, but also just the desirability of the brand, the iconic nature of the brand.

13:00So it sort of naturally kind of eased itself out. but it was a proper crisis you know and as you say when you kind of think about now and the size of the brand and success of the brand in GB that was very hard one you know and certainly not a straightforward journey and then you also going to mention kind of the relevance piece and yeah absolutely like traditionally kind of older male you know that kind of a profile and it's really interesting kind of for me obviously you know we in our marketing like our core target is is actually kind of male and female, you know, and not even like age specific.

13:37You know, what we want to do is kind of talk to the broadest number of consumers possible, you know, and that's good for the brand and it opens it up to the biggest kind of recruitment space. But one thing I noticed, which I think was such a turning point in terms of like Guinness being cool, in particular amongst younger generations, but also becoming more bilingual is COVID. Now I've got a theory on this because actually COVID, as soon as we couldn't go to the pub, yeah and what what what were we missing we're missing a pint of guinness yeah and you also i think nailed your communication i remember i mean at system one we we measured every covid ad because because suddenly we had no customers because people were people would stop stop stop testing advertising we thought what we're going to do why don't we test every covid ad and try and learn about the best response yeah and actually your guinness response i mean it was just offst patrick's day actually that's right the lockdown happened so you went from this amazingst patrick's day reminder of being together and what it's like being together suddenly we couldn't be together yeah it's almost felt like at the time that guinness was the brand that was staying loyal and reminding us what it will be like when we get back together and soon as the pubs opened again it almost seemed to be guinness was you know the moment that we got back together i mean that's how i interpret it looking at all the ads from the time i couldn't summarize it any better myself but you're dead why but it was a very concerted efforts and i actually wasn't working on guinness at the time of COVID, I was working on, I was Global Bond Director on Smirnoff.

15:02Yeah, there's a kind of a GB angle and there's an Ireland angle here, but the Irish government in their wisdom had this interesting kind of habit of deciding to announce a lockdown, usually on the 6-1 news on a Friday evening. If you can imagine, you know, that the publicans have got all their stock in, they're ready for a big weekend. And of course, these lockdowns were kind of opening and closing. So of course, when they opened up, It was a mad dash, you know, to get restocked up, et cetera, et cetera. And if you can imagine then like this kind of happens, then all that beer is spoiled. So one thing Diageo did in Guinness was we basically paid for that.

15:41Not everybody kind of did, which I think just created enormous kind of goodwill. And I know that might seem like a small step, but it made a huge difference, you know, to the trades. Again, who are, you know, like to their cash flow. Can you imagine like mid-COVID, like, you know, they were not making very much money, but it also meant that they could kind of hold on to their staff, et cetera, et cetera. But we had this program called Raise the Bar, which was, again, you know, thinking of our investment, multi-year investment and the on-trades. So the whole idea of Guinness coming back stronger and reaching like a number one entree share, etc, etc, I do believe is hugely attributable to that level of investment.

16:24And if you can imagine, that investment was used to create outdoor furniture, you know, of course branded, but that's expensive stuff to kind of do, you know, and of course, with a lot of the pubs, people can go inside. So they were like basically outside. So we paid for awnings and chairs and tables, et cetera, et cetera, which again, I think the trades were really, really grateful for us. So I think we built up huge goodwill. And I think we really, really demonstrated our commitment to our customers, but also I think to consumers as well. And it's interesting you mentioned the piece around, you know, the communion kind of aspect and Guinness really representing that.

17:01And our brand purpose on Guinness is we believe in the power and goodness of communion. And I think we really, really brought that to life, you know, kind of not just words, but actions as well to kind of really stand for our purpose. And it has, it's just such, has been such a turning point, I think, for the brand. COVID could have devastated the brand and in fact, quite, quite the opposite, you know. But it also spurred on innovation because, of course, people were drinking at home, not in the pub. And hence, like innovations like microdraft, nitrous surge, which have basically kind of transformed that quality experience.

17:40Like at home, that draft quality experience came, you know, the afterburners were put on basically on the back of COVID. So I definitely think, yeah, an ill wind blows some good, I guess, in the case there. And then one, yeah, like in terms of the younger consumers, at one point we were allowed to serve Guinness through these little kind of hatches almost. Yeah. So in the same way, people were getting coffees, you know, like these little kind of like whole, like so the pubs did that as well. And it was just kind of hilarious to see people being handed out pints of Guinness through these hatches, but being so delighted to be able to do it.

18:17And then, of course, they were on the streets, you know, but everybody was just so grateful, so well behaved, you know, handing the pints back, you know. And the interesting thing for me, what really struck me was it was all young people drinking Guinness and there was a complete mix, male, female, you name it. And that really, really struck me because I just think the values of the brand and as you say, that kind of being a kind of a symbol of coming back together. And, you know, I think that's really endured. You dropped a little thing into conversation just a minute ago. You said, oh, of course we provided the furniture, which I thought was lovely, actually, the generosity of the brand.

18:58But also how distinctive your assets are and how they're everywhere. I mean, even flying into Dublin yesterday, like literally wall to wall Guinness all the way through, isn't it? Which is welcome to Dublin. It's amazing. And I think Guinness is famous for having very distinctive assets. So how old are the assets? How do you know which ones are valuable? I mean, I discovered on my tour earlier that the harp, for example, goes back to 1860, which is incredible. Yeah, exactly. So the harp's been around, you know, for kind of basically all of modern day history on the brands. And you will see the harp on every pint, glass, bottle, and actually irrespective of market.

19:40So even though our cousins in Lagos or Kenya don't know maybe where Ireland is or the link to Ireland, there's a harp on every bottle. So I think the harp is probably our most beautiful, actually, and distinctive asset. It is actually a national symbol of Ireland, as I mentioned, you know, and the design actually comes from a harp called the Brian Beru. harp which there's a replica of here actually here in the storehouse we're experimenting more with our iconography and allowing consumers to experiment with this as well and you'll see kind of on some of our merch like how we put in like different colours in the harp or you know there's a beautiful installation actually here on the third floor which is this we call it a fibre harp which is you know a piece of sculpture actually and so the harp serves us really really well and interestingly we don't even need to say the word guinness anymore you know we can actually just put the harp and people go guinness now i've actually got some data on this as well because a couple years ago when you remember you did that brilliant surfboard in the beach yes i think it was social out of home and and somebody sent it to me at system one and said oh would it work better if you put the harp in there and i said let's test it let's see what difference the harp makes it was incredible it it boosted the school at fun a five-star scale it had an extra star but what's interesting about it was as soon as people saw the heart they immediately knew it was guinness and it just and in the survey we sent out people go oh the idea of having a guinness on the beach sounds amazing you know what i mean so it just correct the association that just that heart creates in people's minds and the emotion that it elicits is really powerful yeah and again it's it's it's that down to that kind of really sticking with your kb kbas which i know sounds a bit marketing 101 but that's how those memory structures are are built now have you got a book have you got like a book of like where because what i'm interested to know is is like where are the limits of how much you can play with them because they've you know they go back a long time they're very distinctive you're really well known for them you know how do you decide as the brand director yeah when people can and can't play we have a brand world kind of set of guidelines you know which of course now is kind of all online and that's distributed out to the markets but it's refreshed probably every year.

21:52And of course, as we add in innovations, add in things like Zero Zero, you know, we update and we create kind of brand worlds for those. So that's kind of how we keep the discipline on it. But what's interesting, even more so beyond kind of just even kind of internally like Diageo, is consumers are creating loads of content, you know, on Guinness now. And we have a very, very vibrant set of communities, as you can imagine, on Guinness, which is absolutely fabulous. We have communities on Nitro Surge, by the way, who take pictures or videos of pouring a Nitro Surge at home and share it with them, which is fabulous.

22:27But point is, there's a lot of user-generated content there. And I think what you want to do is kind of free up your KBAs and be generous with your KBAs, let people play with them. But obviously, we have a brand to protect and be cohesive on as well. Generally speaking, like people are really respectful around like things like the harp, etc. while still kind of playing with it because they really like it and it's a thing of beauty like in its own right, you know. I have a bit of a theory that the stronger the brand, the more you can sell merchandising because I think merchandising is incredible because you've got people coming here paying to advertise your brand on their t-shirts, which when you think about it as a marketing stunt, is incredible but i think but it's a mark of the power of the brand isn't it that people want to wear the merch i mean usually most brands you wouldn't dream of going i wouldn't walk around wearing that brand you know at the weekend but but guinness somehow has become that brand that people are very proud to wear and show off yeah and i mean i think it's it's that kind of like proud to be seen drinking or proud to be seen with type peace and like guinness score is really really highly you know on that because yeah not just that it's cool i think it's because the values of the brand it kind of says something about you you know when you're either holding a pint of guinness or indeed you're kind of wearing like a t-shirt and yeah we have a very successful merchandise business on the guinness brand it's been on the go for a long time by the way as well i've been doing licensing for for many many years what's great to see now is i mean i think it's really fascinating.

24:04I actually see merchandising as almost like another P within the five Ps or whatever, if you get me, right? I think it's a marketing lever or growth driver in its own right. And that's kind of how we're talking about this with our merchandising team, which is, there's almost like two aspects to this. One is the revenue generation, obviously, but the other is actually like brand heat. And I actually think there's even more value in the brand heat sort of side of things, you know, and when you've got people coming in here, we have regular celebrity visitors but when Rita Ora arrives and then leaves basically head to toe in Guinness merchandise you know you're onto something right?

24:43Yeah, yeah, etc. So what's really brilliant about what we're doing on the merch now is we've obviously got different layers or tiers like any kind of apparel kind of brand but some of our collaborations we're really, really proud of. So there's the Le Brun recent collaboration and that was very carefully thought about and chosen. And the reason being is that he's from Sierra Leone, right? Was born there, obviously raised in like, you know, the UK. But Sierra Leone was the first market to which we exported Guinness in Africa. And again, back to your kind of story about my family, he grew up with the brand in kind of mind, you know.

25:24So I guess the other then is Fadi Burke, recent collaboration as well. And there's more and more, you know, of those kind of coming. and what it does, it becomes more than a garment. It becomes a story in its own rise, you know, plus they're very cool. Now, I want to talk about one of my favourite straplines of all time. Good things come to those who wait. But we've been chatting for a while and we haven't yet had a Guinness. So this might be the moment to... I know, and this is thirsty work. This is very thirsty work. So this might be the moment to get our man here to pour us a pint. As he does so, how long does it take to pour the perfect Guinness?

25:57It is very, very precise. It is 119.5 seconds. Ooh, 0.5. It's specific. It is that 0.5 that makes or breaks. But yeah, back to kind of like the story on kind of quality, kind of good things come to those who wait. Kind of started in the, probably the campaign was kind of being conceived mid-90s. But then, of course, we have our very famous surfer ad. Okay, what is with us in surfing? Yeah. that was shot in 98 and went on air in 99. And again, one ad of the century, an extremely famous ad. And the whole piece behind that is, we're probably a little bit self-conscious about how long it took to pour a pint, you know.

26:42And of course, at that time, customers were kind of got frustrated and they didn't want to do the two-part pour. They're just like, that just takes forever. Of course, that has completely, completely changed now because we've just totally put that message out there and we've taken, I guess, what would have been historically a nuisance and turned it into a venture. And I like to kind of think, if you think of your mental health, it's all about it being in the moment, isn't it? And being present. And I'm like, there's no better way to be in the present than just to chill and wait for your pint. Now, talking about having a pint in Dublin, in the storehouse, right?

27:18I want to ask you about this, the myth. the myth that Guinness tastes better in Dublin. Now, I've got some real Guinness fans amongst my friends, all of whom swear that a Guinness tastes better in Dublin. Can you confirm or deny if that's true? There's no difference, you know, in that like every pint of Guinness is sold in GB or indeed in the US or in Europe comes from here. So it's exactly the same. Has it always been that way, by the way? No, no, not always. So as I mentioned, I joined as a graduate and I was based in Parkwell. So we brewed there probably from the 40s or 50s, I would have thought, you know, up until we then brought everything back to Dublin.

27:59But every pint now, it comes directly from here and is put straight into kegs, etc. So there's no science reason for it. But I guess it's that kind of situation kind of moment. You know, I guess like the snow is more enjoyable than Lapland, you know, situation is everything. But yeah, a lot of people say that, but yeah, there's absolutely no difference other than maybe a little bit of Christmas. Probably the association, the feeling, like Christmas, isn't it? Like the home of Guinness. Yeah, exactly. It's that Christmas feeling, you know. So we are counting. Is that 194? No, 119.5. 119.5. Yeah.

28:38There we go. So we have done our, well, we almost completed our waiting. We're proving the point here ourselves, aren't we? Thank you very much. Look at that. Look at that. Still settling, yeah. Yeah, we'll give it another moment. So you talked about the Surfer ad. How big an impact did that campaign have? Because it's one of those things that's still talked about today. If you listen to the top ads of all time, you can guarantee that that Surfer ad is up there. What impact did it have on the business? Yeah, massive. I think because it was just so head snappy, and it's such a beautifully told story.

29:12But I guess it's a great piece of advertising. It won out of the century, as I mentioned, And it ran for years. It established that whole piece on the brand, you know, which has endured, as you say, like we're talking about it now, right? There's a few other ads as well that are quite successful. Well, come on to that. Just before we do, a good tea up there, is another ad that's been running for a long time that probably doesn't get the recognition I think it deserves is your Christmas ad. I know. People might not realize this, but it's run for something like over 20 years, hasn't it? Your Christmas ad.