How Just Eat used celebrities and jingles to help them become market leader - Susan O'Brien

0:28Welcome back, everybody. little bit more about how they come up with the campaign and how it's driven the success of the business and how they've kept that challenger mindset going despite being the global leaders. This is a great conversation. There's so much in it. You're going to love it. Here it is. Suso O 'Brien, welcome to the show. Thanks, John. It's great to be here today. Now, I need to, well, I don't know whether I should thank you or apologise on behalf of everybody that's now got, did somebody say, kind of going through their heads now. Like, it's one of those things, isn't it, that just sticks in your mind?

0:57Yeah, I mean, obviously that was always the game plan to become that kind of earworm so that we could always be top of mind and the brand be front and centre when people are thinking about getting food or groceries delivered. I think you've succeeded. But before we get there, because obviously Diane's talked to you about the campaign, how you came up with it and how it's delivered for you as a brand. But let's start at the beginning. How did you get into marketing? Why marketing in the first place? I did a postgraduate at Kingston Business School in marketing specifically, came out of college and wanted to do something vocational.

1:31And Kingston at the time was a great place to do that with great connections to industry. So felt like I might get a job at the end of it. So that's where it all started. Hang on, a marketer trained in marketing. This is unique, right? This sets you apart. Oh, that's very kind. But it was a great training ground, actually. and what was great about the course in particular was that all the lecturers were grounded they'd all come from industry so they weren't kind of the traditional theoretical professors they'd been there got the t-shirt so they were able to I suppose yeah they were able to teach you stuff you know from from the real world and I just want to share one memory I had we'd all planned to go out to the pub one night like yeah great after lectures we'll go and it was about five o 'clock and we're all planning which boozer we were going to go to and the lecturer uh lindsey firth mcguckin um who was amazing um lindsey said right assignment tonight's due in tomorrow morning nine o 'clock and we all went you've got to be kidding me and she went welcome to the real world this is what happens that's a lesson and that's true isn't it if you ever pitch for business if you ever been preparing a customer presentation for the next day i've had many a many a 9 a.m tesco annual negotiation.

2:46Yeah, that's very true, isn't it? I think the worst one I had, actually. I went to a networking event. In fact, I was talking about pitching with agencies and I was the token client who was kind of, you know, representing all of client land. And they were having a go at me about, yeah, we don't, you know, we never get enough notice. And this is about 9pm at night, so it's an evening thing, right? And I said, can I just mention something? Tomorrow morning, I'm getting up at 4am. I'm driving five hours to see Greg's the Baker. because Greg's the baker are my biggest customer. And I've got to go and defend our listing.

3:16And I think people forget everyone has a customer and everyone's under pressure, you know, in terms of their customer. Yeah, I think that was a real lesson for me. And as you can tell, it is a while ago, but it really stuck with me. It's like, you know, this isn't about choosing what you want to do necessarily. You have to be responsive. And if there's a deadline, you need to meet it. So yeah, it was all, we were all at working all night. And I think alcohol might have been consumed after the hand-in, but yeah, it was definitely not going to celebrate the completion absolutely in your career as well you've spent quite a lot of time freelancing as well um how was that because i've only i've only done six months of freelancing in my career and i found it flipping scary i mean i didn't i remember not knowing what business was going to come in and how much i was going to get paid in the next month it was quite a so why did you end up freelancing and how did it go i think you know you're calling it freelancing i i'd kind of maybe kind of package it slightly differently for me branched out my own and set up my own Suzo limited consultancy.

4:13And the reason why I did it was pure and simple. I had a family and I wanted to spend a bit more time with them, with my babies who are no longer babies. And this felt like a, at the time, it felt like a really good way to do it and great supportive husband. So yeah, it definitely was feast or famine. But what it did, it allowed me to travel the world. I did a lot of strategy, a lot of brand strat and lots of different categories, you know and as I said you know I was in the Middle East I was in Malaysia I was in Russia I was in the Nordics and Europe so probably didn't get to spend as much time with my children as I thought I had but yeah you know one day it's full-on deadlines and the next it's like oh my god where's the next bit of work going to come from so scary but I think you know it kind of teaches you that you just go with it go with it what will be will be but certainly building networks talking to people and putting yourself out there a little bit as well so yeah and sometimes that's hard that's true i mean i only had limited experience but what i i remember learning from that time was a the power of the network and referrals and and the reputation you build actually as a as a person but also i got to work on some really cool stuff but you get to see different industries tackling similar challenges it gives you such a breadth doesn't it and i think that's the point is kind of you know what's transferable in the skill set that you've got you know what is the problem that that they're trying to solve and then kind of approach it with that well for me anyway it's through a marketing lens but yeah I mean I learned so much and you know I mean I remember once I was presenting in Kuwait to the Kuwaiti Federation of Science and I'm like with these marine biologists these like and I felt so intimidated by these superstars and they're like yeah but you know everything about marketing we don't know anything about that so So, yeah, just kind of extremes, like, and I look back and just think how rich that was.

6:02And again, the important thing of kind of building those relationships, understanding, you know, again, what the problem is and what you're trying to solve for. I remember actually in my little part of the career, I ended up pitching to a Formula One team and to a Premier League football team. Stuff I never thought I'd do. You're right, you get in the room with some really interesting people and some really interesting challenges, which is a lot to be said for it. But I never quite got used to the whole, I don't know how much I'm going to earn this month. That was a weird thing to. Yeah. And again, on that.

6:32So, again, husband supporting me, you know, big champion. But you just, I just had a flashback then when you talked about Premier League. I recall, again, this is a long time ago and I'm showing my age, but the launch of Manchester United TV. I worked at Sky and I remember being in the boardroom at Man United and Ryan Giggs was there. Alex, you know, Ferguson. And I just thought, what the hell am I doing here? You know, so some of the experiences I've had, some of the opportunities have been a bit crazy. But yeah, that was just a bit of a flashback. We're going to come back to this because you've worked with some pretty cool talents in your current role, haven't you?

7:06Which we'll come and talk about. That's one way of describing it. But yeah. Yeah, exactly. We'll come and find out more about it. And you know, you've been CMO, Global VP of Brand for Just Eat for quite a long time now, I think almost coming up to eight years. I've not been as successful in keeping my jobs. So I think I famously got fired twice in one year. So what I'd love to know is, you know, the CMO or the most senior marketing organisation is a very tough place to be as the most senior marketer. What's the secret to longevity and, you know, succeeding in a role over many years? Well, when I first joined Just Eat, it was a very different organisation.

7:41And I went in there as a consultant, in fact, the then CMO Barnaby Dore and he's a very dear friend of mine he said oh Susie can you come and help me don't say no come and help me I need a bit of a rebrand and it was all at the time about changing people's perceptions about what the Just Eat brand stood for and I continued to do that actually all these years later in terms of what is our offering you know from QSRs to you know mom and pop shops to groceries and what have you that we are now entering into in terms of that new vertical but back then I joined um as a consultant and and yeah and then I ended up staying but have I survived I think that what I tend to do is is kind of build again those relationships around the business and and kind of make sure that you treat people with kindness but also very importantly do what you say you're going to do so share the vision share the direction and then execute against it.

8:39So yeah, I suppose I'm passionate about forward thinking, forward planning and just getting on and doing the job. So maybe that's helped me a little bit. So I'd say it's more than a safe pair of hands. It's like, if you want something done, go and talk to Suzo, she'll help you make that happen. Balancing the strategy and execution is a good point, isn't it? Because you can be a CMO that's very good at strategy or very good at execution, but we really have to balance both those things, not just coming up with the ideas, but making them happen and making them, you know, deliver. Yeah. Talking the talk, but not kind of, you know, rolling your sleeves up and making it happen and making it happen brilliantly.

9:15And I think often it's better to be kind of 80, 90 % right and do something rather than procrastinate. And sometimes like stepping over the precipice, you know, just getting on with it and just hoping that all is going to come good. You're right about procrastination. I found that very hard actually because sometimes you need to wait for all the information to become available, don't you? Some people will rush to a decision and look like they're decisive and making a big difference. Sometimes you have to know when to wait, know when to act, and that can be quite tricky. I've got a theory to run by you.

9:47So we talk about the four Ps, right? I think there are different four Ps for CMO. I just want to run this past you, see if you agree. I think the four Ps of CMO are politics, persuasion, people, and POs. So I remember whenever I've been CMO, So the one time people would be knocking on my door, texting me, hounding me is when they want the money signed off. I never got to have all the fun, you know, making ads. I think it's money and people, isn't it? I need more resource. Can you approve this job requisition? Oh, yeah, I'm definitely the most popular person when that happens and people chasing me.

10:22But it's then when I walk around the department and I can see some of the work that's coming together and people are either trying to hide their laptops, their screens. I go, show me, show me, because this is the bit I love. I'm just like that. I remember it annoyed all the teams I ever worked with sort of thing. And then, you know, when you talk about the work, you know, you talk about I and we and together and that kind of thing, people go, yeah, but John, you know, you didn't do the work. And I'm like, do you know what I did do? I gave you the air cover. So my job was basically to go and talk to finance, go and talk to the noisy sales directors like that would ever work.

10:52You know, all those people that have got an opinion and are trying to stop what you're doing happen. Sometimes it's about just clearing the path, isn't it, for other people? Yeah, and I think making sure that the team know that you've got their back. So you're right, it's kind of sideways and upwards. And there's quite a bit of upwards as well. And that in and of itself is a challenge. But yeah, I do miss a little bit of rolling the sleeves up and kind of getting on and doing some of the great creative work. But that you're absolutely right. I mean, some of the people are just incredibly talented, super smart, a lot smarter than me.

11:26And so yeah, I just enable them to try and get get on with what they do brilliantly. And then, as you said, yeah, clear the path, enable them to do that and know that they can knock on the door and kind of go, it's going really well. It's not going so well. What are we going to do about it? So, yeah, definite kind of, yeah, approachable Suzo to get on with it. But you're right, the politics, the persuasion, the constant socialising of ideas and going, I feel like I'm repeating myself. That's because you are. You've got to repeat yourself a lot more than you think, don't you? Because you're very familiar with it in your head.

11:58of course everyone knows this and you realize you talk to you know different departments they go what are you talking about you know but even within your own department it's like why am I having to say this again and that's not a criticism but often as you say it's in your head you've got it really clear but you have to you know communicate educate inform all of that multiple times to multiple people and then it might drop so yeah that that sometimes I forget that actually because It's really clear to me. Now, another theory I've got on the CMO front is when everything goes well, it's a team effort, right?

12:31The moment something goes wrong, guess who's on the hook, right? It can feel like that. I've been in a few situations like that, but it can feel often, doesn't it, that when things go wrong, everyone's looking to the CMO to go, right, what are we going to do? Well, I think often it's kind of marketing can fix everything and we know that that's not the case. And you know that, again, that's why you need to work cross-functionally on projects and what have you. but yeah i don't want to say it's a violin moment but it can be quite lonely um you know in terms of some of the things you're trying to juggle and some of the the things that you are trying to not share because it's not going to be helpful to share but is kind of bubbling and is in the top of you know forefront of your mind um that can be a bit yeah hard sometimes i think it's a massively lonely job i i i i mean having experienced it myself it's when you're the most senior marketer you're no longer one of the team bonding over doing the work you're you're kind of like the person that approves or the person that's in the board meeting you're kind of othered a bit aren't you you're like okay you know you're the grown up yeah which is why as I said you know don't show that don't show Susie that's not ready for her to see it's like oh please show me I want to be part of it I feel part of the team yeah absolutely I think I think just on that bit though is um we are a great marketing team at just eat takeaway and so i i do i do feel very much part of a team to be honest but yeah i know that i've got other jobs to be done as well as within marketing and outside marketing in fact the job is even bigger outside of marketing to be done yeah i remember having a chat with someone saying how much time do you spend on advertising and i actually went through my diary and worked out i spent five percent that only five percent of my time was actually on advertising when you actually look at you know there's people the strategy there's planning there's finance there's coaching there's hr there's one there's so much stuff isn't that involving the job and i guess people's perception of the cmo being this creative genius individual that just gets to sort of you know hang out and can hang out and can exactly do you know i never went to can as a client have you been to can by the way i went to can um the first time i went to can was it was an incredibly um lonely experience i went on my own and i thought this is going to be really cool but I hadn't organized myself and I was kind of in and out and I thought oh gosh that's not what I thought anyway I went last year and for those of you who are listening who went to Cannes you'll know that it was chaos with with planes so my plane was cancelled and I thought I'm not meant to go but I went and spent quite a lot of time with my marketing academy fellows and it was fantastic uh had a great time and actually want to encourage most of the team to go with me next year because the learning was really amazing and the weather wasn't bad either yeah i i never got to go as a client actually which you've been since i've been every single year oh okay like since i've been doing this job right i've been invited out there and you know in fact last year i went as press because the podcast was counted as press so i got a press pass you had your big pass i know it's a different experience you got to get you got to go to press releases and all the backstage things it was it was different experience it was really good did you go to the spotify event i didn't actually no i i didn't either just no i I was Captain Sensible.

15:38So, Kerry, who helps manage the show, literally booked me up like onto every panel. I had seven podcasts to record. I had about three panels to do other things as well. So, I was that kind of overly sweaty guy running up and down the Quasette kind of between things. But what I thought what was great about it as well is that everybody was there. You know, it was kind of a, it was agency side. It was client side. there was a whole heap of people it was like constantly bumping into people that you know i've known for years and it's like oh my god you can great let's get together but yeah time ran away basically i call it linkedin in real life yeah great description that's what it is basically and once you get past the fact that you know well actually when i went to the um the palais very few people were looking at the work it was almost empty so where they just displayed all the work everyone was out networking so for me it's just like one giant networking opportunity yeah I never actually went to the Palais.

16:31As I said, I was kind of, yeah, I went because, I mean, I was on a couple of panels as well myself. But, you know, I did go for that learning experience, but it was the connections. It was just mad. That is the reason to go for sure. Yeah, definitely. Now, we must get on to, of course, did somebody say, as he says. I love the singing. I'll butcher it. I know, exactly. I'm sure everyone does. It must be a thing. You must go and have karaoke and it all starts with that. But take us back to the beginning of that. So, you know, where did the origin of that idea come from? What need were you addressing?

17:05Wow. Okay, so I'm going to go back a little bit. So I was tasked with running an agency pitch in Q4, maybe just the back end of Q3 of 2018. Ran the pitch with some of the very best in the industry and ended up after some incredible pitch theatre, like a bit of pitch theatre from our fantastic colleagues, partners, friends at McCann London. McCann won the pitch and very unusually we ran the pitch work. We launched Did Somebody Say? Oh, I love that. Yeah. That was in the pitch? That was in the pitch. That idea? That idea was in the pitch and it was simply brilliant and yeah. Was your first reaction that?

17:49Yes. One of the things that's interesting about that phrase is it requires you to join the dots, doesn't it? and it's one of those ideas I think gets better and better the more familiar you are with it so did did did you get it straight away when they pitched it you went oh that's it well what I loved is that you know did somebody say just eat it wasn't just did somebody say it was did somebody say just eat so so it just felt really normal it felt local it felt it didn't feel forced it felt like something that that could land in the vernacular and so yeah it that I I remember calling Alex Lubar at the time.

18:23And, you know, when you're delivering the nice news that you've won the pitch, there's nothing better, that feeling, actually. Of course, it's a position of power. But I said to Alex at the time, I said, how are you feeling? He said, it depends what you say to me, Cesar. Bizarrely. Again, another story. He was actually in the doctor's surgery. I said, oh, crikey. And he said, I told them that they'd won the pitch. And obviously, he was over the moon and was really clear that I wanted to make that announcement pre-Christmas, which we did. And then we launched the first iteration. I think most people think the first iteration of Did Somebody Say Creative campaign was with Snoop.

18:58But in fact, it wasn't. It was in 2019. We launched it in the majority of what we call our Just Eat legacy markets in kind of Western Europe, as well as Australia. And we launched it with what became quite an irritating earworm. but again it was kind of that repetition and I know that that Mark Ritson has talked about you know a little bit of genius in that in terms of did somebody say did somebody say did somebody say just eat and we ran that but what we then lent into is a piece of insight and a piece of customer feedback is you know it was a little bit marmite people loved it or hated it and it became the irritating earworm it's like oh if I hear that one more time and whilst that kind of annoying piece people were still talking about us which again marketing holy grail people even bothering to talk about your brand so what then happened was we lent into that insight and we can we can talk about snoop but the opening line of the 60 with snoop it's snoop in his den uh with his mates basically watching our commercial and saying i'm sick of this get those just eat fools on the line I'm going to do this doggy style and I actually said to the creators I'm really uncomfortable with that line I've got to go back to the chief exec you know this is you're basically making us out like we're idiots because he's calling us just eat fools and so tonally I was nervous but actually tonally it was spot on with the just eat brand yeah you sort of you're kind of putting a mirror up to yourself and yeah it's a telling joke isn't it that you that you know yeah we know this is a bit annoying we know it's annoying but run with us yeah but i think with that is kind of the the knowing human playful are all verbs that we use in our tone of voice so we felt we had the credibility to kind of go with that which we did now i'm going to show you a video now which i think makes this point amazingly so um itv did some work with thinkbox where they actually did a goggle box style experiment looking at what do people do during an ad break so the the idea was during an ad break you know do people watch do they listen are they even in the room are they talking you know so actually how much of the ads get consumed and the fascinating thing after i saw this bit of research is if i made an ad today i would obsess about the sound obsess about it because what they found is the majority of people are not watching sure they're almost all listening but for you it gets even better so i'm going to play you something now and let's talk about it i think it makes the point brilliantly well

21:43so what i thought was fascinating about the clip we just had there is the fact that no one is in this case you know people aren't watching the ads but they can they just hear and the slightest little hint of the ad just triggers people to suddenly sing the song. Not very well, by the way. I mean, I think my rendition actually stands up quite all right. I think I take it back, John, you did well. But yeah, I think, look, you're fighting for attention all the time and people are on their phones or they're distracted. And so, yeah, the power of audio, the power of the sonic, you know, logo, mnemonic, whatever you want to call it, and ours being, you know, did somebody say clearly has had an impact so yeah I think that you're right it's kind of how do you get people even bothering to talk about you as a brand how do you break through all of that other noise that's going on it's really difficult but but yeah I mean I think that some of the some of the work that we've done in terms of our distinctive assets has been fantastic in terms of you know the performance of that line or that that sound that important sound in terms of like 73 % of our UK population can associate, did somebody say, with the brand Just Eat.

22:52That's amazing. And I think, you know, the brand being front and center is so important because, you know, did somebody say, you know, oh, you know, cheeky curry or, you know, or an Italian or whatever. The answer is always Jet, Just Eat Takeaway or whatever we're called in various different markets. But it's kind of an call to action, implied call to action. Did somebody say with the answer being us? So yeah, brand front and center, really simple, dead simple. Now you said in various markets, right? I'm fascinated that that construct of Did Somebody Say, does that travel across into different markets?

23:25Does it work? Does it work in French, German, Spanish? Well, we think it does. And so, yeah, we spent an inordinate amount of time trans-creating those simple three words to enable us to have that as our brand platform across the globe. We're in 20 markets. And again, you know, when you're trying to, you know, create content that can travel, it's important that you're not reinventing the wheel every time. So, yeah, in German and Slovakian and Italian and, you know, we've just launched the platform in America. So, you know, it really has now kind of transcended all of that. So our brand as well is all around delivering moments of joy.

24:00And I think that when you even say, did somebody say it puts a wry smile on your face? So whether it be the doorbell moment or the minute you decide to place your order, we hope that, you know, people are always thinking about us. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Now, you're in an incredibly competitive market, aren't you? And I mean, you know, whether it's Uber or Deliveroo, you know, the intense competition, the funding that's gone in, you know, the battle to get delivery drivers and all that kind of thing. So what's the secret to standing out? Because, I mean, obviously the jingle is part of it.

24:29But what other things do you have to do to make sure that you're the one that's going to be at the front of the queue? Yeah, you're right. In a world where things are kind of ending up being commoditized, you know, it has to be the brand, John, has to be the brand and whether people are connecting with that brand over and above rational, functional, you know, you know, free this, free that. And it's fiercely competitive in that space. It's kind of how do you get people to emotionally connect with your brand? Because ultimately, top of mind awareness and then driving that into brand preference is critical for us.

25:01And we do it in a way because, you know, the work that we're creating, we want people to talk about us. And I think that our story so far has been quite successful. I think there's always room for improvement. But I think that what we've done is that we've created content that people are sharing. Again, a marketer's dream. People are searching for marketer's dream. And I think that we've done that through the use of talent and just being consistent with what we're trying to communicate. you know we're trying to when we use talent for a reason right so fame is just that just elevates everything but you need to do it in a way that is authentic you've got to do in a way that that superstar that icon can deliver your commercial messaging whether that be you can get breakfast dinner or lunch or you can go bananas at the grocery store you know all kind of honing into what we're trying to talk about as a brand and the messaging that we're trying to communicate about range, about supply, about quality, all of those things has to be done in a credible way.

26:00So that's always the challenge. Yeah, I want to ask you about how you use talent. I mean, we've got a few customers, System One, like Warburtsons or Yorkshire Tea, that brilliantly use celebrities in a really authentic way to kind of tell their story. But I always question, like, how do you justify that from an investment? Because, I mean, I'm assuming none of the talent kind of did it for free out of the goodness of their hearts. but how do you build the case to use the talent and what impact does it have on the performance of the campaign well look i think it builds doesn't it so as i said we started without any talent and then it was how do we again elevate it and uh risk and reward we approach snoop um snoop is one of those individuals that um apart from being very commercially savvy he transcends generation he transcends cultures and so he and we tested him obviously in terms of recognizability, likability, all of the data points.

26:54Then you then go back to the board and say, what do you reckon? And they were like, love it. And then you have to get the song. You have to get the song. So the power of the lyrics in the song, are they delivering that message? So you get the song and then you relinquish control because the song goes to the icon, to the musician. and that's their, you know, piece de resistance, isn't it? It's what they do brilliantly and that's a bit nerve-wracking. But yeah, how do you sell it into the board? I think people will have read how much we paid for Snoop. It's not true. But we just let the press say what they want to say.

27:35No comment. But you then build on it. So Snoop worked brilliantly for us and we launched Snoop during COVID, which was particularly challenging at a time of our merger. So there was a moment in time where I didn't think Snoop was ever going to be seen by anyone. How did you get the money signed off when there's uncertainty about ownership and that sort of thing? Well, I think that, again, it was business as usual. We have targets that we need to hit and the city's looking at us, whether we are being bought, merged, taken over, whatever. Business has to go on. So you need to still be doing and performing at your very best.

28:15And I think that, you know, the marketing budget approval was months before that, as you can imagine. And I think we were the last shoot in LA in the March and then everything went dark. So we're sat on this amazing content and Suzo, we're merging. And we're merging with a company that's got its own look and feel. It's got its own style of marketing, which was kind of incongruent with where we were and kind of what we felt was kind of playbook stuff. But fortuitously, we got the work away and it was seen and people started talking about us. So again, that helps when you then go back to the board to say...

28:56Makes the next one easier, doesn't it? For sure. So you kind of build on your own credibility as well. Did that work? That was a risk. It worked. Great. Do we go again? Yeah, hey, crack on, which we did. And again... And what do you do to top Snoop? I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, I know from a system one point of view, snoop is universally popular funny great actor the whole thing you know it's hard to find talent that ticks so many boxes who do you use next well that that's the channel my kids said to me mom i think you've gone too early like how do you top snoop you know the use of music as i said you know is a kind of universal connector which works well in lots of different languages you know even though he's singing in english people get it they get the tune they get the kind of the take out snoop delivered the messages that we wanted him to deliver brilliantly but you do go where do you go next and again look this all comes back to the brief what is the job that we're trying to do so you know snoop put us out there in terms of you know cuisine types and what have you when we ended up working with katie it was very much about get what you want when you want it so it's about knowing that actually food delivery isn't about friday saturday night it's every day three four five times a day if he fancied it and it was making sure that we were communicating the fact that you can get what you want when you want it and so it was a very it was the brief is different there was obviously the the consistency of what we were trying to do john but yeah we went out and said where do we go from snoop and you can imagine lots of people oh what about this person what about that person it's like well what is the job that we're trying to do um and katie perry came out tops when we kind of again did the research is she recognized in germany is she recognized in in poland and you know in all of the markets that we operate in in canada etc and she was a dream to work with she was an absolute perfectionist and but was very close to all things lyrics so we had a demo we loved the demo she wanted to change things again you have to relinquish that control to the artist we did but again there was a credibility piece for her which we think yeah she delivered brilliantly for us it's a good point we forget that don't we that actually for the artists as well they're putting their reputation at stake in you so they equally they've got a brand to build themselves so it needs to kind of work both ways and i think sometimes people might forget that it's kind of you know we're we've got the the checkbook but actually the reason why they're so famous is because they built that themselves their own brand so as you said it's the marriage of those two brands together and making sure that credibly katie's delivering our messages that we want to talk about so yeah they talked originally about the pitch being won by mccann and they came up the idea at the beginning i love that because it's it's magical in those moments where you just go that's exactly it you cracked it unusual actually but because most often i find pitches are more about the chemistry and have you got the capability and that's but it's lovely to see an idea come through like that what's the secret to having an effective relationship with your agency and getting consistent because one of the things i admire about what you do is although the execution change the consistency of the idea and the quality of execution is always on point what's the secret to getting that working the relationship with mccann is one of partnerships so they understand our business they spend time in our business they understand the commercial challenges that we have and what we're trying to do in terms of profitable growth um and so so yeah it's about they're an extension of the team basically and so how that comes about is through lots of challenge lots of support heated debates um along the way whether it be on the account management client servicing side you know up to the md all of the creatives just kind of working things through together and having that healthy tension i suppose healthy tension but yeah it's a great partnership yeah yeah very demonstrably so as well um and how do you in terms of like uh what you do next how do you come up with new ideas i mean how's that process work and how do you make the right decisions along the way is any kind of approach you've got to testing the idea is good and it's going to work well i don't know if anyone can see my gray hair um i mean that's the million dollar question isn't it so so uh as you may be aware we are in the process of rolling out the new work the new campaign you know across many channels, many countries, many languages.

33:17And this time we were kind of like, you know, let's go, let's make it difficult for ourselves. We'll go with famous artists. So again, what is the brief? What is the job that we're trying to do? And the creative idea was all around, you know, making sure that people understood the range of cuisines that we've got, the quality of the cuisines we've got. And you're going to be really surprised at what you find on the Just Eat Takeaway platform. and that element of surprise and delight came about by utilising two, you know, amazing artists in Christina and Lato, very different and kind of that juxtaposition almost.

33:53They work very well together there, don't they? Yeah, yeah. Well, I could tell you a few stories, but yeah. Yeah, on the whole. You've got the right take in the end. But I mean, you can see straight through the strategy there. You know, we're trying to target, you know, the younger generation, you know, the Gen Z and the story I'll share with you there is that when I presented this to the wider community at Just Eat Takeaway at one of our senior leadership meetings, I said, does anybody put your hand up if you know this artist, Lato? Not one person in the room. No, I didn't either, but I knew Christina.

34:23Yes, that's very interesting. And then I say, Christine, everyone goes. Yeah, exactly, yeah. But that's the point. You're not the target audience, right? And a lot of nervousness from our country managers, like, I don't know who this person is, Suso. You know, you're sure? And again, we'd done our research. You know, we'd spoken to customers. we'd spoken to consumers, but a very different cohort, a very different group of customers that we would love to have utilizing our service, whether it be for the, you know, the pizza or the grocery item. But we want those to be on our platform. And so you need to talk to them in a credible way because they're cynics about advertising, let's face it.

34:58And then you use somebody like megastar hip hop artist of the year, Lato, you know, 24 years old, of course, most of the people in our office are not going to know her but those that do like oh she's so cool and then legend iconic christina together talking about our story sharing messages around you know going bananas at the grocery store because that's a new vertical that we're in and that's the type of stuff that you can get on the just eat platform uh or the just eat takeaway platform again because we're across 20 markets you know really credible because you go we can target that kind of group of customers there that group of customers there you know and we target a different group of customers with our uefa sponsorship over here so it's kind of like we are a brand for everyone and you have to find clever ways to be able to talk to them in a relevant way one of the things you touched on which just triggered a thought in my mind was that the fact that you're not the customer you need to go and get feedback from the customer um i think you saw the amazon christmas ad yeah uh got campaign turkey of the week yeah and we tested it on system one and it scored the highest possible uh rating and it just goes to show that sometimes like you know we can be so insular and you know but if you don't talk to the customer you can make and it's incredible that you know campaign magazine with all their you know expertise on the industry can give something a turkey and it can absolutely top the polls when it comes to the audience and that's also when you that that kind of real importance of kind of sometimes going with with your gut but also going with the data it's the magic and the logic piece right so you kind of go oh but the data's telling me this it's like oh i've got a feeling it you know that might not be quite right or you you listen to a group of people and and they go don't know who that is or yeah i really like it and that's that's the trick right it's an art and science combo well i i because i thought a lot about this i i've i've tried to resolve it in this way that the gut is where the inspiration the ideas and creativity happens but the the data and science is for the decision making to check if it's right because like if you just go on the science you'll end up with like almost creating average you create category normal but it's your instincts and your experience and your creativity that's going to come up with the idea that will end up scoring better yeah so i think it's more about inputs and then measuring outputs is that you know some people just go on the science don't they and others just go on gut feel but you kind of need to use one for creation and one for measurement yeah i i agree with that actually and i think that i talk a lot um with my insights team they're there to guide not dictate and sometimes you do get data results that you makes you nervous it's like oh it's not going to quite quite do what we need it to do but then again you you need sometimes you need to be brave and kind of go with it you know so but again when you talk about target audience clearly the people at campaign are not the people that are saying this is an amazing ad that's the one with the three women on the on the sledges no that's that one yes Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:54Absolute freaking genius. I mean, that is just amazing. I'd have to say I smiled at that one. It was brilliant. And, you know, you've got the kids, you reveal them as the kids at the end and that kind of thing is a clever twist. It's cross-generational. It's an experience we all remember. It's relatable. It's fun. Yeah. You know. Christmassy. You can imagine. Yeah, it makes you feel good, right? It does. It makes you feel good. And I think we talk about, again, you know, delivering those moments of joy. And I think we're not talking about people guffawing with laughter. it's just does it make a little bit of a smile make you yeah feel it feel good well really what you're trying to do is is make people feel good and then be remembered for it so this is what sometimes people that's what amazon did gene is what you do and amazon do so well is in making people feel good it's unforgettably you yeah isn't it so like you make them feel good and you just cannot get the the you know the jingle out of your head or the bright orange delivery you know delivery outfit it's just impossible to forget isn't it yeah and i think you you asked me a question earlier john i'm not sure i answered it about you know what comes next and where do you get your inspiration from um and in fact one of one of the markets said to me well susa what's coming next and i said and i actually said to her i said you haven't even launched it in switzerland yet give me a break you know so it's like they want to know what's coming next but in a way i take that as a super positive because it's they're curious they want to know how we're going to improve what are we going to do differently and it's the one question i get asked by the exec who's coming next yes so there's that anticipation you can play on that you're creating it and so in a way you're creating internal theater because they're brand champions as well kind of promoting all things just eat takeaway so so yeah that bit's really important and if i knew the answer to that i wouldn't reveal it on this podcast there you go keep manging um question i wanted to round up with is is you know incredibly successful business you've expanded globally it's been like must feel like a rocket ship of like every you know the growth has been incredible yeah um what advice would you give a marketer in that kind of rapid scale up phase because if you compare it to say when you're running a mature brand you know because it's a very different game isn't it it can feel different and sometimes you have to act in a different way what what your tips for being a challenger yeah and i think that you know you've got that's the mindset right so we are a big business we've got 16 000 employees uh that excludes our couriers we're we're we're delivering nearly two and a half million orders a day across our markets nearly two and a half million when you say it like that it's like that's a lot right and so how can you be a challenger with that type of volume but you know we've got ambitions to grow and so i think that even when i take myself back to my days at sky where i that's where i learned the ropes um very different environment but again that kind of challenger mentality it's about putting your hand up and going we can do this and having that license to go for it and i suppose in a way asking for forgiveness so it's just it's a mindset it's about a winning mindset it's about moving at pace it's about getting 80 right it's about mixing data it's about you know data insight all of that stuff as well as what do we think we should do to kind of leapfrog that next bit of growth so yeah i brief i i spent a short time working at suntori and the the founders have this lovely japanese phrase called yatam and it basically means it is a bit like just go for it but it's a bit more as a founder act like a founder would and just right just do what you think is right and it was like a lovely expression but that that you know treating it like like you would have found as a founder yourself i think is a i love that mentality i suppose the challenge comes though doesn't it for everyone is that when you grow and you have lots of people by default you need process right and it's about making sure that process doesn't get in the way of getting to do great work yeah and i talk a lot about delivering and creating leading whatever the word is great work that delivers great results that everyone's proud of i think that's kind of my kind of motto if you like um because the everyone being proud of it doesn't matter who the mother or father is of the idea if people are talking about the work that you are doing it is the holy grail whether they're internal or external so that that's where I land on that one.