How LEGO used play time to unlock creativity - Julia Goldin, Global CMO, LEGO

0:06Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Uncensored CMO. Now, if I were to ask you to think up a dream job, I wonder what it would be. I think for me, I'd probably want to be the global CMO of the world's number one toy brand, Lego. Well, fortunately for you and I, I have as my next guest, Julia Golden, who is doing that exact job. And I want to catch up with them and find out what is it like being paid to play? And actually, what role does play have in our lives? And how can play help children learn, collaborate, be more creative and ultimately be more successful and change the world we live in.

0:39This is a great conversation with somebody right at the top of her game who has got loads of experience and stories to bring. I know you're going to love it. This is my conversation with Julia Golden. Julia, welcome to the show. Thank you. Great to be here. I'm dying to know how on earth you got here, but maybe take us back to the beginning. Where'd you come from and how did you get into this world of marketing in the first place? Well, I was born in Soviet Union in Russia and I came to the States with my family, with my parents when I was in my teens. And I really wasn't prepared for any kind of career thinking because that didn't exist in Russia and I was studying to be a pianist, so piano teacher.

1:21So I had no idea really what I wanted to do. But when I got into my kind of education, I had the sense that I liked many different things and I was I didn't feel like I had a really big spike and so but what I really loved was psychology understanding people creativity solving problems but I also loved commercial side of things as well and so I kind of fell into marketing because it was a perfect combination of art and science and I'm still super passionate about exactly that understanding people figuring out how to create something amazing for them that brings them value and then how that turns into a really successful business.

1:57I love that description because it's funny, I had a similar thing to you that I was kind of creative and I love finance as well. I had a weird sort of kind of mix of those two things. And the marketing is not those kind of careers, it's particularly well understood or marketed, I suppose, is it? But so what was your first marketing job? And how did you go from there up to becoming a CMO? After business school, I worked at Quaker Oats and I launched things like low fat granola bars, which were the trend at the time. And then after that, I really, that was sort of like learning the basics. And then I went to Coca-Cola and that was really kind of my real kind of big marketing academy of life, I would say, because I worked in so many different jobs there.

2:41I was in the global role. Then I was in market and regional roles in Europe. Then I was in Japan. And that was sort of like my career with Coke. And what was really interesting about Coke is that everybody always says, well, why do you have to market Coke? Everybody knows it. But just being ubiquitous doesn't mean that you're really meaningful. And so actually marketing on Coke was super interesting because it was really about how to make the brand special and unique and much bigger than just the drink. You know, every single time it encounters consumers and how to tap into the culture and the passion in order to be relevant and engaging at local levels as well.

3:20And that was really interesting working with different markets. And after that sort of marketing academy of Coke, I went to Revlon and I was the chief product and marketing officer there. And Revlon was a very different world because it was a world of cosmetics, highly driven by innovation, which I got a taste of it when I was in Japan and really in need of sort of reigniting the brand that had tremendous history, but wasn't as relevant as engaging in the moment. So there was a lot of great work to be done on product ranges. We did a lot with nails. We did a lot of lips. We did a lot of color and really went back to the roots of what Revlon was all about with great campaigns.

4:00And then I had this really amazing opportunity to join the Lego group. it was quite daunting because you know when you join something that's really really successful you always have to ask the question of what how you're going to really bring value and I always sort of prided myself on being a change agent and I wasn't sure whether the company had appetite for a lot of change but it turned out that actually we were at the precipice of needing to make changes in order to hit another stage of growth and I was very lucky to be part of that journey and still am super enjoying it. Well, I can't wait to get into that because it's one of those brands we all know.

4:40It's got amazing history and it's reinvented itself and it's modernized itself a lot, isn't it? So I'd love to talk a bit more about that. Just before we do, you've done a lot of different roles globally and in different companies. What's the secret to being a successful CMO? I'm not sure whether there is a massive secret to this, but I think there is probably a few things that I would pull out. I think one is to, it goes back to where I started, which is, you know, this kind of art and science, why are you here? And it's, it is really about creating value, but it's about creating value for the consumer.

5:15It's creating value for the enterprise and it's creating value for the people who work, you know, in the enterprise. I think one of the things for me has always been this, I've been very loyal to understanding or focused on understanding consumers, understanding what really makes them tick and pushing the brands to deliver and products to deliver, you know, beyond the expectation to constantly surprise and delight to drive innovation and then being really mindful of how to turn it into really, you know, value creating business. So that was, it sounds like the basics, but I think sometimes we get lost in myriad of other things like digital and this and that and the other thing.

5:56But I think staying focused on why you're here and what it is that you uniquely do for the company, I think that's important. The other things, I'm very big on learning and not going, forgive me, not listening to a lot of podcasts or reading a lot of books or going to a lot of conferences. But actually understanding what is changing in the business, what is changing in the lives of consumers and diving into it. And if it's about technology, I will go and sit with engineers and understand how they actually code and how the tech works. If it's about digital, I'll do the same or whatever it may be.

6:32So learning, unlearning what I know, pushing myself to learn different things, being in tune with the world, I think that also drives success. And then the last point is about leadership. I'm a very big believer in one team and bringing different diverse interests.

7:03I think in today's world, you can't be afraid of change, but you can't also become change for the sake of change. So that sort of balance of needing understanding when you need change, being ahead of the curve, don't change when like the writing is on the wall that you have to change because that's always very painful be a bit ahead of the curve and understanding what's coming next i think that's kind of what our jobs are all about that's a lovely that's a lovely concept that isn't it because there are some sort of eternal truths aren't there in marketing that have always been true and then there are things we need to adapt and understanding the difference between the two is is i think a really powerful skill that makes a lot of sense um i read that you won ad week's first brand genius lifetime achievement so congratulations that's quite a title isn't it yeah it's a mouthful isn't it what see you know one of the things you know we often see you know tenure of a cmo is often quite short isn't it and um but you know you've led lego for some time what's the secret to staying on top of your game and longevity in that kind of role you have to stay fresh and you have to also be humble you know not sort of rely on past success past year I mean, I'm very lucky, you know, because we have our consumers are super fickle.

8:18They're kids. They want innovation all the time. And just because I always say to myself and to my team, just because we were chosen and we are on the wish list last year doesn't mean we'll be on the wish list again this year. So you need to really work hard to constantly be, you know, exciting, engaging, relevant. So that's one thing. Second thing is that we make mistakes. We have to be prepared to make mistakes if you want to take risks, if you want to try new things. So balancing and creating the right atmosphere to be able to actually learn from your mistakes, make mistakes, learn from your mistakes and embrace risk has been another really big thing.

8:56And then, you know, really being really focused on delivering value. We can do a lot of different things, but we've got to also remember what are the ultimate goals that we have, what the success really look like. So I think creating the right approaches and setting up the right team and ensuring that people are focused on the right things to continuously up our game, you know, that those have been like the important factors. You made an interesting point there about fickleness, to be honest. You've probably got the toughest consumer audience of anyone, isn't it? Because I know when I talk to my daughters and I might kind of mention something that I thought was in fashion, they go, oh, daddy, that's so last year.

9:35You know, fashion's changed so quickly. Can you predict how they change or how do you kind of stay on top of the sort of trends that are happening all around you? You know, I think it's some trends stay for a while and some, of course, you know, just come up and then they fizzle out. You have to be externally oriented. You know, I always say like we have to be super passionate about our consumers. And honestly, it is about really having your eyes open to the world and being willing to get into what your consumer is into. I'm lucky because I've got kids also, so I can see what they're into. When I see that they are suddenly super into Formula One, I know Formula One is top of mind for them.

10:23And I start investigating it. And I think it's kind of it's things like that that that happen in the world that you have to sort of see and suss out and understand how these trends are all coming together. Which ones are going to be the really meaningful ones? Which ones will stay there for a long time? Which ones will be, you know, in the moment, like your daughters say about fashion? Yes, this year it's black and next year it's green. The next year it's pink and then it's going to be blue or something else. And, you know, so I think in general, it is really about understanding the world out there and understanding what kids are into and watching what they watch, you know, seeing what IPs they gravitate to, understanding what are the hot new games that they're playing, which movies really resonated with them.

11:11So, yeah, we are very focused on passion points and understanding different passion points. And if there's one wish you always have is to predict what's going to happen in the future. You can't always predict what's going to happen in the future. It sounds fun trying that. I mean, understanding what kids are into and what drives them. I think it's very exciting. Something you as a brand are well known for is purpose, of course. Talk to me about what your purpose is as a company or as a brand and how that kind of comes to life. Our purpose is very simple. We're here to become a global force for learning through play.

11:46We are here to inspire and develop the builders of tomorrow. And the idea is super simple. We know that when kids play, they learn. Play unlocks imagination, creativity, and they learn critical skills like problem solving, like collaborating, communicating. And these are essential skills for their future. And we know that. And so our key focus, our number one priority is always to get into as many hands of kids as possible around the world to reach as many kids as possible to make sure that they benefit from really great play experiences during their childhood. Well, I find so fascinating about that is I think when I was growing up, you kind of had work and play and work and play were like separate things.

12:30You know, you learn through work and then play is sort of what you're allowed to do afterwards. But I love the fact that you're bringing learning into play and actually recognizing that actually playing is problem solving, isn't it? It's imagination, it's it's collaboration it's all those things which i i've never thought about play in that kind of way before but it is really really true um and it's not just true for kids it's also true for adults by the way and we practice what we preach because we play at work also we always talk about children being our role models and i always sometimes ask the question of who is more creative children or adults and usually people would say who is more creative kids yeah and you think that because kids are more imaginative.

13:16They can think outside the box. They can color outside the lines. They can imagine anything in their heads. It's much easier for them to fail. It's much easier for them to get up and keep going. It's true. But at the end of the day, kids can imagine a lot of things, but they can't make them happen. Adults are the ones who actually make things happen. And if you actually look at what adults are able to create, has tremendous amount of creativity in the problem solving, finding new ways of doing things, bringing new things to market, et cetera. You need both types of creativity. The problem is that when we are as adults, we lose a lot of our imagination because we don't give ourselves those moments where we can be actually in a fully relaxed and experimental mode.

14:04And that's what play unlocks. Play helps us to be curious, brave, just like children in a playground. and those are the kinds of values that we have in the lego group we talk about curiosity bravery focus as really important but so for for me play is a way to unlock imagination creativity loosen up and allow yourself to come up with more creative ideas more creative solutions it does make sense i mean all my best ideas happen when i'm not working you know quote unquote where i'm having a break you know and then then the imagination starts to kind of join the doors does that mean then in your work you get to play as well yeah you know like i brought my business card because people always ask me so is working at the lego group as fun as it sounds so i'll start with this this is my business card brilliant so for everyone listening um julia's got her name on a little lego yeah i don't know whether the camera can pick this up but you know when your business card is a minifig you kind of have to play um but yes we do so do you get to do you get to choose you get to choose the colors and yeah hairstyle right so we at least once a year we have a play like a global play day where we actually literally everyone takes the full day to play and we engage all kinds of different activities together in all of the different places that we have um where we are, you know, around the world.

15:31And that's an amazing opportunity for everyone, every single person to engage and play. But in my organization, we also have Fabula Fridays once a month where we can play and do whatever, you know, really like, you know, we're passionate about. We have creative booths that we use for all of our designers and communication creatives, et cetera, to engage in coming up with ideas that are not necessarily part of their, you know, exact sort of like work assignments. And these are the kinds of ways in which we can unlock play. But I start all of my quarterly meetings with, you know, play. That's amazing.

16:11That's how we as a team can also listen. So it is as good as people think it is. I think it's important. Working in the Lego group, yes. I think it's really important. It also helps, you know, this kind of idea of collaboration and people, you know, coming together. And again, when you look at children on the playground or, you know, when they walk into their first day in kindergarten, they will learn how to be together. Caring is sharing. That's how you build relationships with people, isn't it? How you trust people. Exactly. And so for us, it's an essential part of how we work rather than like something you put aside.

16:47I think I met a very successful exec team of a brand once and they committed to 20 % of their time together would not be doing work. You know, they dedicated 20 % of any agenda to doing something social, being together, playing, whatever sort of thing. And they put that down as the reason for the success. I very much believe in that. I think it's important to build informal relationships. I think informal relationships settle out. I also talked about one team. it's easy to be a team when everything is going great it's much more difficult when you have conflict so I wouldn't necessarily separate play and work but sometimes solving your problems when you're walking around the lake or when you are visiting something or when you're you know engaged in some kind of a brick activity for example hands on bricks building something let's talk about something that's difficult between us let's you cut you you get to a better conflict resolution you know versus sending long emails and yeah nothing worse taking it out in the conference room absolutely i totally agree you talked about product innovation earlier i'd love to know how do you come up with your next product idea in my head you've got this amazing playroom where it's all kind of the kids are coming up with the ideas but you know how does innovation happen in lego there's a variety of different things but it is not just sort of sitting and playing you know playing in the room with different ideas.

18:15It starts with really understanding consumers. It starts with being passionate about understanding consumers, understanding who they're going after, what are their key passion points, what are they really into. So it kind of starts at the concept stage. And then it is sitting around and playing with different ideas around the right brief, around the right understanding of what we're trying to hit. And then we go through kind of a stage process. We have different teams in the organization. Some teams can work on innovation that is, you know, more within reach. So if you say, for example, you know, we know, for example, this particular IP is super hot or this particular, you know, passion point is super hot, like flower bouquet, for example.

19:01Then we have designers that will work on, you know, how to actually innovate in the space. Some projects take a much longer time. So we have Creative Play Lab that's particularly dedicated on these more challenging projects. So, for example, in 2020, we launched Lego Super Mario. It was really innovative because it has interactive technology inside the Amigo and, you know, Luigi and Mario. And they communicate and you can compete and you can build your own course. But to get that technology to work takes a long time. So some of these kind of big ideas, the tournament to reality will take a few years and we have teams working on that, too.

19:38So that's sort of how the process works. Some innovation is closer in, some innovation is further out. Some comes out of what I just talked about, like design boosts, where some amazing ideas and they are developed within one week of designers coming together and working or anyone who wants to join it. So, yeah. I like the balance between the long-term strategic things and the short-term sort of just coming up with an idea in a week. That's quite cool. Now, you do a lot of collaborations as well, don't you? Star Wars movie or, you know, things like that. So what role do collaborating with other properties have?

20:11Because it, I mean, feels endless the amount of possibilities that there are out there. You know, other properties are important in various spaces, whether it's movies, whether it's vehicles, whether it's games, for example, because there is no shortage of possibilities when it comes to the Lego brick. You can build many things with Lego bricks. But there's we always have our approach is always to think about where we can really add value to the property. So not just do yet another thing for property, you know, like, you know, just bring it to life in the Lego brick form if there's already many other ways in which the property is brought to life, but bring a unique experience to the property and to the people who are passionate about a property.

20:59So Lego Star Wars is like a unique experience in its own right. And there's actually quite a large generation, probably a couple of generations that have discovered Star Wars through Lego Star Wars and not through Star Wars films, because it was right in between, you know, the last episodes and the middle episodes, you know. So my son fell into that, you know. So he discovered Lego Star Wars through, and then the films came out, discovered Star Wars through Lego Star Wars. So we constantly try to look at how we bring, what unique experience we can bring to the property. So they are important, but we are choiceful also about which ones we actually focus on collaborate with and then we want to make these collaborations really meaningful the interesting thing about lego star wars that just thought that occurred to me is how it connects parents and children so you know for me i'd have got in through the films but like you say for your son you got in through the through the lego but then you've got something to connect you so there's also something quite powerful about the sort of parent and child bond isn't there that playing together you know kind of facilitates yeah and the lego brick itself is that kind of, you know, legacy as well.

22:16You know, where parents and children, I often hear them talk about parents, remember the sets they build, now they build the sets with the kids. Sometimes they pass their bricks onto the kids and all the bricks, you know, they still connect. So it's kind of a rite of passage in its own right. But there are properties like that. And there's also some Lego experiences in particular that lend themselves to these kind of connection moments. Like we launched Manchester United football stadium. It happened to launch right in 2020 when everyone was at home. So I built it together with my husband, with my sons, and it was just a great experience.

22:57Brings people together, doesn't it? Absolutely. In a wonderful way. And it's accessible. That's the other thing about it is it's not technical. Everyone can do it. Well, you can get very technical, but there's something for everyone, isn't it? Yeah, it's for anybody of any age, actually. Now, we were having a little look earlier on the system on database, weren't we, at some of the amazing advertising you're doing. You've produced a lot and very successfully. If you had to pick a favorite campaign that you've kind of created, what would your one be? In 2019, we launched our first ever, actually, global brand campaign, Rebuild the World.

23:32And since then, we launched a few different iterations, including a holiday ad with Katy Perry, which I know you tested and tested really well. But I would say that campaign in totality has been a real favorite for me because it is not about one particular product, but it communicates a really clear message about the importance of play, the importance of creativity. And I think it brings joy to a lot of faces, a lot of people when they watch the campaign. The idea behind it is very good, isn't it, in terms of rebuilding your world so it feels like it's got a very powerful idea sat at the heart of it yeah absolutely and then i always really enjoy things that we do that are not your typical advertising because i'm a big again believer in the fact that right now when to do things you know to really break through you need to really break through and just do something unexpected so just you know a few examples we build a life-size bugatti that could actually drive only 11 kilometers an hour but it It was built fully out of Technic platform, including Technic motors.

24:37Just this year, we had a Le Mans Peugeot model, also a Technic model. And to do a communication campaign behind that one, we had a full-size Le Mans Peugeot model that was built out of Technic bricks. But it was built during 24 hours in Le Mans during the race. Really? It was built in the 24 hours? Yeah, in the 24 hours. So you were racing against the cars to build the model? Exactly. That's a clever idea. So that was a lot of fun. We had to bring excitement to Lego Flowers. We had a pop-up garden cafe in London. I think things like that, they also really resonate with people because it's something that's unexpected and it's something that only, I would say, only Lego can do.

25:21And I really love that. It does seep into culture, doesn't it? Absolutely. We've all got a connection with the brand and experience of it and it sort of pops up in unexpected places, which is brilliant. And thinking about the future as well, and obviously sustainability is on all our minds in terms of, you know, the next generation and how we're going to leave the planet in a better place. How are you approaching that as a brand, as a big challenge for, you know, for the future? We are very committed to sustainability efforts and, you know, investing a lot, you know, really focusing on really big things, reducing our carbon emissions.

25:55We have pledged to reduce by 37 % by 2032, by 50 % in a little bit longer distance future. We're investing$1.4 billion just up to 2025. Now we're in the process of changing all of our prepacks to paper. So it's already rolling out and it's going to be finished by 2025. And we're constantly looking for different ways in which we can create more sustainable sources for our materials. We already have plants from plants. So anything that you see that's green is already made out of a fully sustainable source material. It's out of sugarcane. But we're also increasing the percentage of material that we source that's got mass balance and also working on segregated materials that we're constantly testing to make and just rolling into our full kind of system.

26:49That's what we call of all of the different elements and components that we have. So, you know, so it's a lot of investment to find the right materials, but also a lot of work in our own supply chain and with our partners to reduce carbon emissions. Wow. That's a big, big set of programs there by the sounds of it. It's a very big program, yes. And that's a very big focus for the company. Now, as such a creative company, I wonder how much do you kind of generate yourself in terms of whether it's campaigns or innovation ideas? How much do you bring partners and agencies in? Because you strike me as a company that's got a lot of creativity kind of built into the heart of it.

27:22We do. Part of my organization is our own creative agency. So we do have a big communication agency that's in-house. But we do also work with partners and in several different ways. Sometimes we choose to work with partners because they will bring certain capability, even in developing some of the creative campaigns, but also to keep ourselves fresh and on our toes. So the agency sometimes chooses to actually bring in an external partner. So that's one area. The other area is when it comes to gaming, we do have games and we are developing. we have a big initiative we're partnering up with epic games the makers of fortnite to do something you know quite big in the metaverse that we're planning in the future so we will partner with partners that have certain capabilities and then when it comes to content creation we work with a lot of very talented people in hollywood and you know obviously for you know i mentioned for example lego star wars so sometimes we will collaborate with disney company They're great partners, and they will create together with us Lego Star Wars specials.

28:28They're some of the most popular shows on Disney +, but we also have Lego Indiana or Jurassic World specials that we've created with Universal. And obviously our movies, we've had great partnerships to do that too. So it depends, but we always look for areas of expertise. And of course, there's a lot of external agencies that we collaborate with also when it comes to insights. And, you know, how do you yourself choose what to put your energy into as well? Because even what you've described there is just a world of possibilities, isn't it? How do you choose where you're going to focus your energy for the future?

29:05Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the really very important skills to have. Like you have to be focused on the top priorities and you also have to build very strong teams that, you know, organizationally that can actually drive a lot of these initiatives. So many of the things that I just mentioned, I will not get deeply involved in. I always put my energy to make sure that the strategy is right, to make sure that we're all aligned on the direction. And then I will put my energy on the areas where I can really add a lot of value, you know, where help is needed, where it's a challenging task, where there's problems that need to be solved.

29:46And building a strong organization is essential. I have an amazing team and they drive a lot of really amazing work and they do it much better than if, you know, if I did it. But they know that I'm there and available for them for sparring, for providing some input or for helping to solve problems. and creating that sort of open relationship with every single person that I work with. So they are not afraid, but actually want to come to me, not because they need me to sign off on something, but because they really want to work together and they benefit from the partnership. That's how I like to work.