How not to get fired (from the world’s leading expert)

0:00Kory:Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Uncensored Renegades. This is the 20-minute podcast where Kory, Marchesoto and myself tackle one big question every week. I hope you enjoy this. Now, if you are enjoying it, I've got one request to make. We're putting this out on the current Uncensored feed for a limited time only. So if you're enjoying it, go over to Uncensored Renegades, hit subscribe and never miss an episode. Anyway, without further ado, let's get into it.

0:26Jon:all right what's up we're back what's up what city are you in today where in the world are we

0:34Kory:we're in the big apple you're gonna be coming to london next week i'm very excited by this because we can show you the uncensored studio talking of uh podcasting probably the reason i do a podcast is that i've just got fired a few times i think every conversation you and i have

0:51Jon:ever had you have reminded me that you've been fired multiple times and i love that because

0:55Kory:It's the only thing I can outdo you on, right? It's a number of times been fired. It's like top trumps.

1:00Jon:There's a lot of lessons in getting fired. I say that the greatest, the hardest times are your greatest teachers.

1:08Kory:It's so true. I mean, you learn so much and it really focuses the mind. But possibly it's better not to get fired. So I thought I might try this out, right? Come on, give me some advice here. Like, you know, what are the tips on not getting fired?

1:24Jon:Let's do the opposite. Well, you tell me, what did you learn from multiple firings? Multiple firings. Multiple firings. There has to be some key lessons here. Some learning in there somewhere.

1:36Kory:Somewhere in the firings. I think, look, early in your career, I think you have a view of your boss, that your boss is there to teach you everything, guide you. They've got your back. You know, you have this sort of like maybe idealistic view of your boss. and I know I used to meet people that talk about managing their boss and this kind of thing and taking ownership for their career and that kind of thing and I think there's a lot to be said for that that asking some basic questions you know what does success look like where are we going together what you know how you know what am I on the right track and having that open dialogue with your boss and checking in I think would have helped me I think the second thing that would help me is understanding the culture better of the company.

2:22Kory:I probably fell into the trap of thinking it's what you do that makes you successful, but actually it's how you do it that makes you successful. And there's like a manual on what to do. I read that. There's another manual on how to do it. I didn't read that one. And I, or I read that one too late. Oh, oh, so that's how decisions get made and that's who makes them. And it's not what I thought. And I probably discovered the, I mean, I remember when the first time I got fired, my boss took me out for coffee and said, John, you're the best Marcus I've ever worked with in my career.

2:57Jon:I'm like, well, why did you find me?

2:59Kory:He said, you just couldn't navigate the organisational politics well enough. And he said that. The thing that shocked me about that is I thought that was a negative. I'm like, well, you know, I'm like, well, I don't care about politics. But actually, politics have a role to play. And you need to know the politics. If you want to not get fired like me, right, you need to know the politics of the organization, you know, where the power lies and how decisions get made and that kind of thing.

3:24Jon:You need to know what game you're actually playing.

3:26Kory:Yes, you do.

3:28Jon:So before you break the rules, let's understand what the rules are first, right? Because I can see you being a rule breaker and I am as well. And you need to know what game you're playing before you start breaking the rules. I'll give you maybe a story of how not to get fired that goes back into the early days of my career. It was my third job and I was young in my journey and I had been brought there from somebody from my first job. And this was just a very exciting moment where I got the phone call from somebody I'd worked for in the past who wanted to take me along on this exciting journey.

4:03Jon:And it was everything lined up to be this extraordinary moment for me to build my career, build a company and doing it with incredible people. And I start the job and I cannot get along with my boss. And it was one of those moments where I would go home every day, reflect on the day and none of the days were good days. We were always getting into some sort of tension point, but not healthy tension, unhealthy tension, unhealthy friction, couldn't see things eye to eye. And it was creating misalignment inside myself to the point where I just couldn't be the employee that I needed to be for the company.

4:48Jon:And this was going on for a few months, and it almost starts to have a physical impact on you when you just can't feel that you're aligned and ready to be in a position of thrive. I was definitely in survival mode. How do I survive every day? How do I make it and not get fired at the end of the day? So I would go see a couple of advisors and speak to a bunch of different folks. And in fact, I got unanimous advice. The unanimous advice was, you got to quit this job. go find another job. This is not going to work for you. You're not delivering what you can be delivering. You're falling short when you should be the superstar, yada, yada, yada.

5:26Jon:And I was like, but I love the company and I love the work and I love the job and I love the brands. Why is quitting the only answer? And I feel like if I quit, I lose. So I decided that there had to be another path, but nobody could show me what that path was. So guess where I went? The bookstore. I went to the bookstore and I had a conversation with the librarian.

5:57Kory:The librarian!

5:59Jon:And I explained what was happening. I said, I don't even know where to go in the bookstore for help, but there's got to be something in these walls that are going to help support where I'm standing on this journey. And she asked me a few questions. She was really curious and had incredible instincts. And she said, I know exactly where to take you. And I was like, wow, you do? So she walks me to this particular section of the store, walks me to a particular shelf and hones in on a particular book. And the book was called Cultural Misunderstandings, the French American Experience. I went home and I read that book in one weekend.

6:39Jon:I went back to work Monday morning and I was with that company for 18 years. And what I realized was I couldn't expect my boss to change. I needed to change. I needed to unlock a different code. I needed to come from a different temperature, a different angle. Something about me had to change. And what had to change about me was understanding this actually had nothing to do with me and her. It had everything to do with the fact that we were coming at it from different cultural perspectives. And in fact, I got so good at understanding the French that I eventually married one. So the book went a very long way.

7:23Jon:Oh, I love that. But it taught me a lot not only about not expecting somebody else to change. You have to make the change if you want this thing to be successful. It also taught me a lot about cultural variations and how we actually come at problems from different angles and understanding that first, how critical that is in any problem solving or navigating difficult moments, which are going to have to do in work setting and scenarios. So I think the key advice here is it all starts with you. Don't expect the culture to change for you, the boss to change for you, the colleagues to change for you.

8:04Jon:Ask yourself, what are you going to do differently in order to adjust to this environment? Similar to what you were saying, your boss said, hey, you're a great marketer, but you can't figure out how to play the politics. And that's really important. So had you actually spent the time to understand how to navigate that, you wouldn't have gotten fired.

8:21Kory:Quite right. Exactly. Exactly. I think one of the one of the lessons it touched on as well. I remember learning this when I sort of first became a leader is you kind of assume that everyone wants to be managed like you. And this has been a massive learning for me because you kind of assume again, my boss must, you know, must want to manage me in the way I want to be managed kind of thing. Right. And I remember one of the very early in my career, Fiona, like, obviously, you know, we got on brilliantly now. But I remember we had this sort of tension about, you know, she was managing me and I just wasn't doing things in the way that she wanted me to.

8:55Kory:And I remember she went to talk to HR and they got us to the psychometric test. And we worked out, we were the polar, there was this quadrant and we were like literally hugging the opposite ends of the boxes and this sort of thing. And it was amazing because I remember doing that and it just broke the ice or whatever the phrase is. But it just unlocked something where suddenly went, oh, so what you value from me in this particular example was being updated on things. knowing what I'm working on, agreeing my priorities. What I valued was guidance and inspiration on how we solve a problem. And anyway, so we just worked out that what was motivating us and where our blind spots were, were the complete reverse.

9:31Kory:And the weird thing about that learning, which actually I've ended up kind of appreciating in my career, is that people that think in opposite ways to you are so valuable once you unlock it. So it goes from being this barrier and confrontation to suddenly be this amazing unlock where actually you get the most out of each other and it can work brilliantly. But you've got to you've got to first seek to understand before you can seek to solve it. And I think my problem was jumping to solution without thinking about understanding the person and context first.

10:02Jon:Yeah, but even there, like what I take away from that is have the conversation. Have the conversation. That is a difficult conversation you have to have with somebody to say, hey, this is not working out the way either one of us want it to work out. I'm willing to do my part and help me understand what that is. And if I had to do my story a little bit differently, I would have had that honest dialogue with my boss rather than like feel sick to my stomach for three months every day going to the office and eventually ending up in a bookstore. Why didn't I just have the conversation? Right?

10:38Kory:100%.

10:39Jon:And I think so much can be solved through honest, transparent, candid dialogue. And for some reason, we're afraid to have hard conversations.

10:50Kory:It is fair, though. I think you're right. It's fair. And actually, it's easier to have the conversation early than it is to let it go late. And then it gets to an irreparable point where you feel, as you did, like you had to leave. Unfortunately, you didn't. But you get to that point. I think the other thing that helps in terms of not getting fired is really think about aligning yourself to what the company's trying to achieve. And I think that's something I don't think about. We tend to get stuck in the sort of silo of our jobs. But something I learned as well is really thinking carefully about, am I delivering something that the company really needs?

11:23Kory:And aligning myself kind of culturally, but also from a business point of view, to what it needs. And if you are doing that, it's a lot easier because you're kind of moving in the direction of the company's going. otherwise you kind of as much as you'd love to do this thing over here if it's not actually what the company needs you end up finding yourself isolated frustrated there's it could be values couldn't it can always be a clash of values or a clash of direction in terms of where you're going but making sure that you're aligned to the company goal and mission is so key as well well that starts

11:52Jon:with asking a lot of questions and being very curious so even when you're seeking a new job and i think about where we're standing today with with elf beauty and we're a high growth company High growth company requires a certain type of employee who can thrive in that environment and deliver on the company's goal. And that is very different than a slow growth company or a no growth company. So I think the key for anyone is making sure you understand what is the actual thing I'm walking into and is that something I actually want to do? It's not just can I do it? Do I want to do that? Do I want to get up every day and go to this place and do this thing with these people?

12:42Jon:And I think very oftentimes people are attracted to the sexy thing like, oh, wow, this company's got 26 consecutive quarters of growth. So I want to work for a high growth company. what you need to be asking is, what does that actually mean? What are the set of behaviors? What are the, what does a typical day look like? What needs to be true in order for that high growth to happen? And I think you need to understand the what, the why, and the how.

13:12Kory:That is amazing. It brings me very neatly onto the second time I got fired, actually. So I ended up, so after the first time, I ended up getting a job at BrewDog. And it's exactly what you just described. So Brewdog at the time, I don't know if it still is, but at the time was one of the fastest growing companies in the UK, fastest growing beer brand, had built a new category of craft beer in the UK. A lot of it borrowed from the US actually because you've got a very well-established craft beer scene over here. In the UK, we didn't really have that. And James and Martin set the business up about 15 years ago.

13:46Kory:And they were probably growing when I joined them at 70, 80 % a year and had had this incredible, you know, unicorn kind of, you know valuation two billion dollars i think it was projects investment amazing rocket ship and so when i left where i was before it i got i literally got the call the week after i got fired so week after i had that conversation yeah i got a call saying they want you right and and i just saw the shiny lights i was like whoa dream brand dream scenario this is like perfect timing could not have been better and i think it's exactly what you said about the how because what i couldn't figure out in the time scale i had is how to execute against the ambition with the lack of resource and under the time pressure that i was given yeah it was mental and the compromise is required to do it as well so i say a big case if i come in and i'd like work up a plan that was six months yeah which is still fast and it'd be like that has to be six weeks and the compromises and cutting corners and pressure to put people under to do it was just insane and the appetite to layer on more and more and more and more so i mean one of the things i mean i got actually got on very very well with james uh the founder every every day we'll be having brainstorms right he would send me a text middle of the night right by the time you wake up i want five ideas about how we're going to launch a new beer or whatever you know what I mean it's just like and I loved it I mean I absolutely love I love the mission I love the creativity I love the ambition it was just so exciting um but the execution oh my word was that hard on on you know with a small team limpsy resources yeah that is a very very very hard job particularly where you haven't grown up with the brand and grown up with the you know and understand the culture and all the kind of things to talk about.

15:37Kory:And that was really, really hard. And, you know, after three months, we decided to kind of part company. But that's exactly what you said, which is understand what it takes to be in a business operating at that level. It's not just a case of I'm going to sign on and enjoy the ride. There's no enjoying the ride.

15:53Jon:No, there is no enjoying the ride.

15:55Kory:Because everyone is always under pressure, always trying to figure things out. There's no playbook because next month is not going to be like last month. Right. Next week is not going to be like last week. Tomorrow is not

16:06Jon:going to be like today. Exactly.

16:07Kory:Yeah. That just doesn't happen. And that is a unique and challenging environment that very few people can cope with.