Marketing leadership masterclass with ex WPP President, Karen Blackett CBE

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0:38All right, without further ado, let's go on with the show.

0:40Karen Blackett CBE:As a leader, 99 % of what you do is done by other people. So how are you going to ensure that they follow? Now, we're talking all about leadership with someone who knows that very well. She was the previous CEO of WPP in the UK. Everyone was taught to just compete against each other. It was literally like Game of Thrones. You're too lazy to call me. Just pick up the phone and call me. I can't stand multiple voice notes. I don't do any other business AOB. I have BOTI, which is better out than in. If you've pissed me off, tell me. I want to make you look good. And if I make you look good, I'll look good.

1:17Karen Blackett CBE:You're never going to get the best work when you're creating a culture of fear. I just worry about our industry becoming vanilla. Karen Blackett, welcome to the show. I am honoured to be here. It's great to have you. Thank you. Now, a little birdie tells me you're working on a podcast of your own at the moment. I am indeed. Myself and my podcast partner, the fabulous Katie Lloyd, we are actually doing a podcast which is sponsored by British Airways. So it will be available on all BA flights from September, mid-September, end of September, called This Is Leadership. So it's all about leadership.

1:56Karen Blackett CBE:Myself and Katie bonded years ago when she was at BBC News talking about leadership and culture and how important it is. And the things that you need for leadership, we've talked about it almost being like a recipe. That there's things that you learn from the people that you've worked for and leaders that you've been inspired by. And then there's always your own little ingredient that you add to a recipe that you've inherited. So talking to amazing leaders, and it's not just CEOs, but leaders of different organisations who have essentially created a change. So and asking them what their recipe for leadership is.

2:35Karen Blackett CBE:I love the fact Stephen Bartlett is going to get some competition on the next flight. You never know. Yeah, this is great. What an entry. This is amazing. Well done. No, it's been fun. What surprised you most in your conversations that you've had so far? Look, we have had such a privilege to talk to a range of different people who have got so many different backgrounds. And we've sort of said about it's not just about, you know, a fancy job title, that what you learn in business is the same in terms of what you need in life. And we've had some nuggets and pearls of wisdom from people like Andy Rowe, who was the former commissioner for the London Fire Brigade.

3:16Karen Blackett CBE:He talked about Maslow's hierarchy of need and thinking about that as a leader and just about what's the basics that people need before you ask them to do something else. You know, they need to be fed, they need to be warm, they need to basically feel part of a team. the basics that you need before you end up asking them to do something else. And so many times we don't think of the basics of what the people that work with us need before we ask them to excel at something else. So that was really interesting to just boil it down to Maslow's hierarchy of need through to Dame Julia Hoggett, who I have learned things from her, just something as simple as colour coding your diary to look at the different things that you're doing.

4:04Karen Blackett CBE:Colour code your diary. I now colour code my diary in terms of speaking engagements, consultancy work that I'm doing, stuff which is family or personal stuff that I'm doing. So just colour coding your diary so you can see in your day how it's panning out. Something really simple like that. That's interesting. And making sure you're getting the right balance, presumably, where you spend your time and you can see that easily. Yeah, and she's, look, she really, she was so eloquent and she basically said look as a leader 99 % of what you do is done by other people so how are you going to ensure that they follow and it's so true it really is true so uh it's how do you inspire and make sure that they that 99 % of the time that other people are delivering for you that it's in sync that they're all rowing in the same direction and that they're delivering so it's really interesting and she again has patterns to her diary in terms of how much is people how much is external how much is sort of operations it's really interesting and fascinating listening to her i have to say doing this podcast i'm more and more obsessed with productivity because we can do anything we want really can't we but it's how we choose to use our time and attention that dictates whether or not we do it and also understanding where your strengths are and what you're best at so i generally believe everybody's got superhero power i i really do believe that and it's about using that superhero power and matching it with people that have a different superhero power so learning where you're going to contribute where you're going to deliver and not feeling as though you have to do everything um and i think that's a big lesson as well that's huge isn't it yeah that's self-awareness um scott canaway's got this phrase great greatness is in the agency of others and it's like find other people that are brilliant and love doing the things that you're terrible at absolutely it's so true isn't it it is so true and look i i do think that we have an image of leadership which i think needs to be modernized there's this image of a strong leader that can do absolutely everything that's brilliant at everything and is we're going over here and we're charging and I just think we need to update that view of what leadership's like and that though even you know getty images and when you search leaders what leaders look like I just think we need to update it yeah we really do who would be the standout leaders that you've come across in your career?

6:43Karen Blackett CBE:I've been really fortunate. I worked with the fantastic Baroness Margaret Madonna, God rest her soul, who was General Secretary for the Labour Party. She was my mentor. The two terms that Tony Blair served as Prime Minister, you had Margaret there by his side she was phenomenal I learned so much from her and every time there was any moment of self-doubt from Margaret from myself Margaret I could feel her hand on my back I could literally feel her hand on my back pushing me forward and you know whether it was professional or personal she was always there to help handing me a notebook all the time and a pen making sure that I was making notes and writing things down.

7:35Karen Blackett CBE:So she was amazing. So she was a fabulous leader. I've been really lucky in my executive career that I've had amazing people that I have learned from and who backed me as well. And also who knew when to get out the way, because I think that's really important when you've helped somebody flourish, knowing when to step aside. So Stephen Alan, who was the global CEO and chair of Mediacom, Nick Lawson, who then became the global CEO of Mediacom. Both of them just saw somebody who was competitive and talented. And they really put me in situations and advocated for me in the rooms that I did not have access to.

8:21Karen Blackett CBE:They were amazing. And then people like Claudine Collins, Sue Uniman, learned everything from those fabulous women. as well so I've been really fortunate great examples aren't they yeah I remember reflecting on my own career one of the first great boss I had guy called Paul Ford I remember I made my first really big screw-up in business where I'd overspent this budget by 50 ,000 pounds now I'd overspent it actually for a good reason right I'd invented a new type of display that was going to go into supermarkets and the supplier had sort of misled me about the actual cost and it turned out to be like two and a half times more expensive than I'd been led to believe and we'd oversold this promotion basically so I got this massive bill and I honestly was shaking going into the room.

9:08Karen Blackett CBE:Because what do you do? I know I was I think I was like 23, 24 I was absolutely petrified from this conversation with Paul I think my budget was like 20 ,000 I spent 70 ,000 I spent more than my salary you know in terms of overspend I was terrified of him not of him of the situation yeah and Paul just calmly sat down and said okay how much did we sell off the back of this promotion you did you did something that's never been done before so how much we sell and I said oh I haven't worked that out well you know you sold three times more um you know units into stores than we expected how much profit do you think we made on that yeah how many more promotions do you think we could do now that you've discovered this new way of doing a promotion and he just suddenly he calmly got me to think rethink the situation and turn it rather than just an overspend exactly he He helped me rethink.

9:54Karen Blackett CBE:Look at the value. Exactly. And I thought, wow. And he had this phrase, which I've never forgotten, which is challenge in private and support in public. And I saw him when I had to go to the big grown up meeting. Yeah. We're all together reviewing the overspend. And I knew I was like, you know, very exposed in this meeting. And he just presented it as John's uncovered this amazing new promotion that has far exceeded our expectations. And I've never seen a better investment of£50 ,000 in my life sort of thing. I'm like wow you know and I suddenly realize what an amazing boss don't you think because he could have absolutely affected your confidence going forward really could have done that you would not have been brave to try anything new again and how amazing that was totally yeah and I know because I saw the meetings he would have had to gone to another finance meeting and he would have had to have taken some kind of rap for overspending the total launch budget for this thing we were doing so I'm sure in rooms like you know I wasn't in he was there taking the heat for me you know and then certainly another boss had Clark McElroy as well this was later on in my career at Britvik he said to me um after I left the team he said do you feel I ever overrode a decision you made and I'm like no I actually don't think you did he said good he said because you know there were a couple of times in that role where I failed you know on a bigger scale actually than the first one but I mean he had this funny phrase actually which is um success has many fathers and failure is an orphan he would say politically it's like true isn't it and he was the opposite yeah if something went wrong he was the first person to come in and give you protection yeah and if if he led success he was the first person to give that away to everyone else and say bask in it you know and those are the people you want to work for yeah and those are the people you can learn from those people that are like teflon when something goes wrong nothing to do with me nothing sticks teflon just looking at who they can throw under the bed you just don't it doesn't engender teamwork it doesn't it doesn't engender trust and i think that's so important as leaders that your teams trust you yeah and trust your judgment now you ran a very large team uh over at wpp what were the sort of biggest if you could get the top two or three kind of leadership lessons from your time what would those be so when i went into the wpp role it was the first time that they'd appointed somebody in the uk in that role and there were amazing i think at the time there were 110 leaders in the different agencies so ceos and mds across all the different agencies and all of those 110 10 leaders had their own EMEA CEOs and global CEOs.

12:39Karen Blackett CBE:So it was this weird matrix that I sort of came in. And I think the biggest thing for me, and I played a lot of sport when I was younger, and a lot of team sport was about how you create a team culture. Because, you know, to be perfectly frank up until that point everyone was taught to just compete against each other it was literally like game of thrones between the different agencies everybody trying to compete for a client and i think what i learned was okay we need to create we can win as a team so it's creating a team culture and so the big thing about creating a team is about trusting your team members and there's a brilliant book called The Trusted Advisor that talks about the formula for trust so you know credibility, reliability plus I call it empathy divided by self-orientation so each agency has to be really really honest about where their areas of strengths are and look so many agencies have become this jack of all trades just because it's about revenue and trying to make sure that they're growing revenue every year and so let's just have an honest conversation about where your strengths are and then you've got to be reliable you've got to make sure that you deliver and actually do more than the brief so deliver be reliable and then have a little bit of empathy about what your colleagues are going through your other agency CEOs also what your clients are going through and a true team member it's less about you and more about others so I think understanding how to build trust within a team was really really important in that leadership role and I think by the time I left WPP we'd sort of created a UK ex-co of about 14-15 people they were brilliant they were a they genuinely were a team they really were they wouldn't compete against each other they'd help each other it was a brilliant team and then I think the other thing is as a leader two ears and one mouth and that's what my parents taught me two ears one mouth and use them in that proportion so you listen more to try and hear all the whispers in the noise to really understand what's going to make a difference, whether that's with a client, whether that's with your team members, the agencies you're working in.

15:17Karen Blackett CBE:You've got to hear the whispers in the noise. You've got to hear the prayers of people that they don't want to say out loud openly. You've got to make sure that you understand what are giving people nightmares as well. So two ears and one mouth. And again, too many leaders are on transmit. Too many leaders are just transmit. That's such good advice. It's funny, actually, I think the more senior and the bigger the role, the more that becomes important because the distance between you and wherever the thing happens. I probably use this phrase too often, but there's a Japanese phrase called the Gemba, which is the Gemba, which is where the Gemba, the Gemba means where the action happens.

16:02So it might be the factory floor, it might be the client meeting, it might be the customer service department, but basically where the action happens. And in Japanese culture, they just teach you to be at the Gemba or take decisions at the Gemba. Because the idea being the further away you are from where it happens, the less able you are to make a decision, which makes complete sense when you think about it. But I think it's sort of Japanese manufacturing culture. and you know the bigger the team and the more senior as a leader you've got to really work hard at that because you're being fed all this information up the chain aren't you from various sources with competing priorities and politics and everything but that's why i think having time

16:39Karen Blackett CBE:on the shop floor as it was is really important and that shop floor time is just hanging out with people that are doing the junior roles so to your point I think there's a brilliant phrase that um June Sao Pong sort of came up with in her book diversify which is check your circle sorry and your circle of trusted advisors need to be diverse and not diverse in terms of race or social class but diverse in terms of age and level as well because to your point who you're listening to, it needs to come from all different areas. So I think as a leader, that's really important, that it's not just the same people who are very senior, who look like you or have the same background as you, but your circle that you go to every time that you want to bounce an idea, or you want to understand what's going on, or you want to, you know, solve an issue, that circle needs to have the most junior people as well as the most senior people, so that you're getting all sorts of perspectives.

17:46Karen Blackett CBE:So I totally respect that. That is absolutely true. I love that advice as well because then you're going to get properly challenged, aren't you? Yes. You're not going to have five people that think like you that are going to tell you what you want to hear because they're your mates. You're going to get properly challenged. That whole emperor's new clothes is literally, nobody's telling you what they really think. I can't... You must have faced that a lot because you're in a very senior position with a lot of responsibility and power. People tell me what I needed to hear. I didn't always want to hear it, but they tell me what I needed to hear.

18:16Karen Blackett CBE:And I think that's really important. I genuinely do. And I try and do that with clients as well. And I don't think it's any coincidence that there are a number of clients that I've worked with that became good friends because you go in it together that you properly become a partner with a client because you're prepared to tell them what they need to hear. And there's a way of delivering it that make sure that it lands and it resonates. But I think it's no coincidence that there's a number of clients who are good friends. It's funny, you give me a bit of a flashback. I did probably the most successful pitch I've won in the last five years.

18:56I won't say who the client is, but a big business. And I was in an eight-way pitch. And I was the wild card, right? I was cast as the wild card.

19:06Karen Blackett CBE:Don't you love that, though? I always love to be a wild card rather than the favourite. right you know this is the place to be and um the work they were doing was quantifiably terrible and i had the data on it what a brilliant phrase quantifiably terrible it's not just terrible i can prove it's terrible i love that and there were good reasons right by the way by the way i should say there were good reasons why i'm gonna take that phrase quantifiably terrible yeah and um And I remember I could tell you the moment I won the pitch because I was agonizing about what I do. So I had this data that suggested that what they were doing was just not working, was not anything different to the category.

19:53It was really, really poor. And I understood the reasons why. So, of course, I was going to couch it in that. But I went into the pitch thinking, well, I'm not going to win this by doing what everyone else does. So I'm going to go in and I'm going to show them the sea of red, basically, why. and I'll explain why this is really, really bad. And I was obviously a bit nervous about doing this. I don't think I've ever gone to a pitch and said, it sucks, you know. Well, yeah. But I thought, why not?

20:19Karen Blackett CBE:Yeah. And got a round of applause. And they said, you're the first supplier that's told us what we already know. And we need change. And we need your help. Yeah. And we need the battle we have is internally to convince other people of what we know to be true. Yeah. And you've just told us the truth and you've given us the data and you've understood why. There you go. The trust equation, credibility, reliability. I've never won a pitch before with quite that bold approach, you know. But, you know, particularly in that supplier relationship where you're desperate to make them feel good, look good and want to pick you.

20:54Karen Blackett CBE:Yeah. And you're worried about being overly critical of what's gone before because you don't want to be that person. But if it's quantifiably that. I'm worried about this phrase now. I'm just. I'm loving it though. Quantify would be terrible. Anyway, there we go. How do you approach decision making in your role as well? Because I think something that the bigger the organisation gets, the harder it is to make decisions and cut through an organisation. How do you approach that? I always think the wrong answer is better than no answer because I understand how a whole organisation can go into paralysis this if you take too long to make a decision so the wrong decision is better than no decision and look when it comes to decision making it's like what I think anyone would do you look at the data you crowdsource that from different people and get their viewpoints as well and then it's down to you and your judgment and sometimes you get it wrong most of the time hopefully you get it right because you've learned how to decision make as part of your role and And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it all has to be done at pace, but there has to be a point where you make a decision because I think we talked before about organisations where there's a culture of a slow no, where nobody really wants to say no.

22:15Karen Blackett CBE:So they ask for more data, they ask for this, they ask for a bit, just to slow down the process. So I do think that decision-making is about your circle of people that you go to to get their viewpoints and perspectives the data to make sure it's not a quantifiably bad decision but then you have to make a judgment i like that a lot i had um i had a conversation grace beverly who's got super successful podcast herself she had this phrase about decision making i hadn't come across before but she asked herself is this decision reversible and if it's reversible you should make decisions straight away if it's not reversible you should take time and I she said it liberated her decision making because most decisions are reversible and therefore you're better off to make a decision change as well so which means that you can then change what you decide to do the environment changes it doesn't stand still so to then change that decision doesn't mean you make the wrong decision it means the environment's changed that you haven't have to course correct the decision exactly and the worst thing as you've described as well is that vacuum that gets created with no decision is that everyone's busy kind of like and then nobody knows what they're doing yeah and it's literally it just creates chaos so yeah it's uh the slow no or no decision is not a good environment or place to be and how do you approach recruitment in terms of how do you identify the right talent the right people to to hire into the organization one of my phrases that i just want to banish and get rid of is they weren't a cultural fit.

23:51Karen Blackett CBE:I hate that phrase because that's you trying to create a clique. What you want is a cultural ad. So I really look for people that are going to add to the team that you've created. And that means that they're going to have a different superhero power to the people that you've already got. Because you don't, I always talk about the Avengers Assemble, because you don't want all Iron Man or Black Widow or, I don't know, Captain America. You want a range of superheroes. So you want that cultural ad. So for me, it's about what are they going to bring? What have we not got that they're going to bring?

24:34Karen Blackett CBE:And do they think completely differently to me? That's what you want to see. so for me I assume that they're going to be if they've got to a certain level they're going to be able to do the job the technical aspect of the job and it's more about what are they going to bring to the team in terms of their knowledge and their experience and their thinking and what are they going to bring that's an ad which is additive rather than a fit I also hate the other thing that I'd like to ban is uh when I hear feedback from people they didn't have much gravitas oh i hate that and it's like what do you mean yeah it's like what exactly do you mean so i hate that so when people are looking for gravitas it's like not everybody has to be extrovert not everybody has to be expressive if that's what you mean by gravitas i want the quiet people as well as the loud people so i hate they didn't have much gravitas and it's normally directed at women when i hear that and it really makes my blood boil and often it's the quieter people that are observing what's going on interpreting what's happening thinking about the solution rather than how good they sound you can't have a whole team of drivers you can't you can't it's literally you've got to have that blended team if everybody's a driver everybody's out of directed and going at a million miles an hour and there isn't that person questioning is that the right direction is that the way we should be traveling is there a different way that we can do in this and talking to other people a team of drivers no thank you very very true and having built the diverse team what were your kind of lessons in how to then mobilize that diverse team for that there's it's always that i always think having a team which has got that diversity of thought is a lot more fun because there's stuff that I would never have thought of that challenges me I learn but you're also going to have tension and it's healthy tension and that's a good thing and you've got to be able to have the techniques to resolve that tension so you get a lot of people especially when it's high performing individuals that believe they're right all the time.

26:57Karen Blackett CBE:So it's having the techniques to be able to solve tension when it manifests and make people aware that tension is good. It's not something to be scared of, but it needs to be healthy. So for me, you know, having brilliant, diverse teams always leads to a better end result. It always leads to a better solution. It always leads to more creativity. but it might be a little bit messy on the way there and messy is okay any advice on handling the healthy tension or making their tension healthy rather than unhealthy because that that that can go two ways can't it it can break teams or it can make teams look i think you have to have honest dialogue so again where i've seen teams go i hear what you're saying but and you know that sorry for swearing you know it's bullshit yeah they don't hear they don't understand they don't care so let's be authentic in how we challenge but be respectful in how you challenge and you said something earlier about if there's something that you really disagree with do it in private yeah do it in private if it's two of you that does it do it in private work it out in private don't bring it to the forum so that everybody has to witness it and treat it a little bit like marriage guidance it's literally you have to hang out together yeah because the more you hang out together the more you get to know each other's quirks and differences the more you won't take something that's said as offensive and personal so you have to spend time that's so true well that i think has become harder post-covid absolutely because of people not always being we don't naturally have the water cooler moment as they say in america which is and you don't get tone i mean so many times you look at an email that goes oh that's a bit direct you talk to the person and they think it was meant to be funny.

28:49You know, and you go, oh.

28:50Karen Blackett CBE:Or I sent it in a hurry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I just wrote it. You know, I was, exactly that, you know. Yeah, you're right. But if it means that you haven't got a water cooler physically, make sure that you get it metaphorically. Do a Zoom call. Just literally FaceTime is so important. But I do think that personal time to really get to know people's quirks and realize that they're quirks, we all have them. We do. Helps ease any tension or potential misplacement. Yes. Thinking that's... I talk with marketers all day. Many of them say the same thing. Traffic is down, leads are down, and they're not sure why until they realize what has changed.

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30:16Karen Blackett CBE:But he's said something and it's offensive. I noticed this in the rise of voice notes. I wonder where the rise of voice notes is. Do you like a voice note? Well, I'm on the fence about it. I have to say. I'm sorry. I don't like a voice note. You're too lazy to call me. I don't like a voice note just pick up the phone and call me if I don't pick up then leave a message that's fine but pick up the phone and call me I can't stand multiple voice notes because I don't always have my earphones in to listen to them and I don't want to blare it out loud to everybody so I'm not a fan of the voice notes I finally get into voice note tennis I've got a couple of conversations that are about two weeks old because we've not phoned each other So we've left these voice notes building on the things for two weeks.

31:05Karen Blackett CBE:I don't know if that makes me a Luddite. I don't know. But I really do not like a voice note. In defense, the benefit is... You like a voice note, John. Well, no, I'm late to the voice note party, I have to say. But are you now making up for it? The bit I like is the tone of voice. Because in a WhatsApp or a text or an email, you don't get the kind of friendly, how are you doing? I sort of mentioned this. How long are your WhatsApps? well depends on I mean your whatsapp is just going to be a quick way of getting some information across it's not going to be more in peace well that's what I mean because there's information that can be a basic da da da and then sometimes you want to give a bit of explanation the voice note helps I don't know why I'm defending voice notes actually because I'm not really a voice note if you need to give an explanation that means it's a phone call it's a phone call yeah well maybe you should just go back to phone calls then should we I'm loving an old fashioned phone call water coolers and phone calls absolutely bring them back No voice notes for me.

32:02Karen Blackett CBE:Anyone listening, don't voice note me. There we go. Top tip. Now, talking about COVID, you did a big turnaround, didn't you, at Group M during COVID? Yes. Tell me a little bit about the circumstances behind that, because that was a big task you undertook. So I'm trying to get the dates right on this. So I remember, so I was still, I still was doing my WPP role. So in typical WPP fashion, you don't just have one job, you have two. so I was WPP country manager and I think it was on the 6th of March they made me CEO of Group M as well in the UK and then I think on the 10th of March this is literally lockdown time isn't it yeah literally so I had all of four days before we were then all locked in our houses and I think look don't get me wrong Group M had been phenomenally successful but there was a perception or image of Group M at the time which was about beating people up in order to get the best rates for clients from media owner partners and not even seeing media owners as our partners that they were people to beat up in order to get the best rates and the media agencies who Group M was the parent company to the media agencies, they were feeling beaten up by Group M as well.

33:25Karen Blackett CBE:So everybody was feeling beaten up by Group M. There was not necessarily the level of trust between the agencies and Group M. And also reputationally, Group M was just seen as this big behemoth. It was an amazing organization, really successful, always delivering for clients. but from a reputational point of view and a perception point of view and also from a you know some of the the margin was starting to plateau and I think that's linked to reputation and people you want people to want to work with you not have to work with you there's a huge difference so I was parachuted in and it's really hard or I thought it was going to be really hard to do a new job when you'd not even work you'd barely even got in the office to work out where the kitchen was let alone the team that you're meant to be leading and very quickly I sort of changed the cadence of meetings and the purpose of meetings because I didn't just want an update and inform gathering and actually I wanted the meetings which happened with the CEOs of the media agencies as well not just individually we met the ceos as though they were on some sort of parade and being interrogated it's collectively we should all be meeting it shouldn't be just me meeting with this it was just weird and i and this does sound odd but i do think that i got to know members of my group M team better than I would have done if COVID hadn't happened because I was getting a window into their homes because I was doing Zoom calls and team calls with them sat in their homes some people had lovely studies that they were doing it from some people were on the kitchen table I was on the living room table which became a hot desk with my then 10 year old son who was down the other end of the table he overheard a lot of stuff he shouldn't have done um with him doing all of his lessons online for school and me with my headphones doing my conversations with team members so I would see the cat wander past I'd see the dog I'd see a child come in I'd see the partner come in and you've got I genuinely feel you know it takes years sometimes before you're invited into the home of one of your colleagues or people that you work with I was getting it instantly so even though I wasn't in person I got to know the names of their partners the names of their kids it was it was a weird way of actually it accelerated me getting to know the team members and I've spent time making sure that I had one-on-ones with the team members in and then a collective and i have a phrase for any meeting that i chair which is a meeting that i would run i don't do a any other business aob i have body as the end thing which is better out than in because that's where you should talk about what's so nothing nothing is left unsaid nothing's left unsaid if something's pissing you off yeah if you've pissed me off tell me yeah It's literally, if that thing that we've decided is really going to jeopardize what I'm doing and how I'm trying to run my bit of the business, tell me.

36:59Karen Blackett CBE:So, Botti, and I do that all the time with any, you know, team, board that I oversee or lead, Botti's on there. Because that's how you make sure that nothing then whispers outside of a room. everything should be said inside the room with the people that can change it inside the room so and I think we had a lot of body during during COVID a lot of body in terms of stuff that wasn't working and again one of the things that I do is I when I'm leading you know a team is I rotate who chairs the meeting so that person who chairs the meeting it's their responsibility to decide the agenda there's always certain rolling items that are on the agenda but the rest of it's down to you and you're chairing the meter so rotate who chairs it so again those are some of the things that i did to get to know the team better to get to know the business better and to make sure that we started you know our turnaround of the purpose of group m and how group m was seen that's really powerful i love body i'm adopting that please do literally that's so good so so good otherwise people will then moan a couple weeks later it's like oh well i didn't agree with that because of x y and z exactly i always can't do anything about it and i always used to lead it so that people you know what it's like it's like people i don't want to say i don't want to say it so i used to lead it and it'd be something yeah small or it would be something much bigger so i would go right I'll go first.

38:38So I would lead it until people got comfortable with Botti because, you know, people are like, can I trust?

38:43Karen Blackett CBE:Am I vulnerable in saying something here? But to your point, if you don't say it now and you come to me in private and tell me later or two weeks later, you say you didn't agree, not going to work. Totally. Not going to work for me. It was a funny time, Kovic, but oddly transmational. I mean, I was at System 1 at the time. and in in some senses it was the best thing that ever happened weirdly because i mean we lost half our bit we were in the business of advertising pre-testing right so everyone stopped advertising literally we saw we saw weekly our business disappear in front of us um i think we lost about half the business and in six weeks or something just literally disappearing as we watched it but we had to do a few things we had to get we had to try and create value out of nothing so we started this uh sounds a bit a bit more morbid but covid tracker and what we meant by it we were monitoring people's attitudes and behaviors towards it and um towards brands and towards advertising the nhs i know yeah exactly i mean and we discovered something that a through we ended up with i think 700 or 800 covid ads on a database we just analyzed them and went well what messages land what can you now say you couldn't say can you say things that you said beforehand now and what mood and what did people yeah we were tracking the mood yeah yeah so um weirdly the mood shifted radically like the first few weeks was very much serious time yes like we have to be responsible yeah people wanted escapism within about six weeks i don't think the word unprecedented has ever been used more unprecedented level of unprecedented yeah exactly it was crazy but but we were tracking in real time people's reactions to all those kind of communication approaches and we discovered for example people were saying can you show people touching in an ad now because obviously we're not allowed to and the thing with advertising is it's escapism it's not real you can do all sorts of things depending on how you do it so anyway we ended up becoming super helpful but the other thing is the sense of urgency that when you have to save a business suddenly you see who your star players are people will step into that void isn't it you And it was interesting watching who stepped in and who didn't.

40:56And I would say that the products that we invented based on listening to the customers in a moment of crisis and whittling the business down to what we have to do, not what we want to do. That set the business on a four to five year massive growth trajectory that you can literally trace back to that moment.

41:15Karen Blackett CBE:That's amazing. Isn't it? Sometimes the old pressure makes diamonds. But you pivot. You do. You do. And oddly, sometimes those moments of extreme challenge can be the best thing that ever happened. Otherwise, you'd have sailed on doing what you've always done. Absolutely. Yeah. Never waste a good crisis. Indeed. Now, you've worked with a lot of, you know, senior clients and a lot of businesses in your time. What advice would you give at the moment to creating and fostering a really strong client and agency relationship? That's such a good question. And look, I think everybody's under pressure to do more with less.