Nils Leonard: Don’t Confuse S**t Ads For The Death Of Creativity

0:06Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Uncensored CMO. Now, one of my favorite guests of all time, Nils Leonard, the founder of Uncommon, is back on the Uncensored CMO. Now, Nils has something he really wants to talk about. At the moment, we're living through a crisis of creativity. Look at the WPP and the fact they're talking about AI all the time. Look at the closure of DDB as a brand name. And Nils is passionate about getting us re-centered on creativity. He really believes that we need to rediscover that creative spirit. And Uncommon, they do some of the world's best creative work. So we want to sit down with Nils and find out what they've been doing as an agency and why he believes now is the time to really invest in creativity.

0:46This is an amazing episode. I know you'll love it. Here it is. One of my favourite returning guests here, Nils Leonard from Uncommon. And we're recording this, obviously, in Uncommon, which is great. Good to have you back, man. Hey, mate. Lovely to see you. Well, I tell this story to quite a few people because I remember last time we had a chat and we sat down, You asked a really good question of me before we recorded, which I don't think anyone's ever asked before. What do you want to happen as a result of this conversation? And it struck me that we spend so much time doing and delivering. We rarely stop to pause and go, what am I doing it for?

1:21Where, you know, what do I want to happen? I thought it was such a profound conversation. Did you picture it? I did because, you know, do you remember we did this? We got the whiteboard up. We just put on the, you know, I said, mate, what do you want to happen? And I think you said, I want to work with Chelsea. Yep. I think it was yours. Yeah, it is. And we were recording in 4F. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's true. In a WeWork. And the world is full of 4Fs, right? You know, I can go anywhere in the world, go to a WeWork, find a 4F, and it will look and feel and smell the same as that where I was recording the podcast.

1:49I was stuck downstairs for 20 minutes. You were, exactly. Abusive security guard. There you go. All the good stuff. We've all been there, right? You know, you can picture it, can't you? And I was like, dude, I want to have a studio, you know? And then I think you phoned me up like a few months later and go, I might be able to help. and here we are which has been amazing so thank you mate no look it was great and i you know right back at you or us my dream of the studio was always that we were we would be this kind of factory surrounded by people just hustling and doing their thing it wasn't that we were just going to be this contained satellite it was like you know all the best things in the world i'm obsessed with this like movements you know aren't one person there are a bunch of people all trying to do something where they share a kind of value but they're all hustling in their own way and i I was kind of really excited at the thought of you doing that.

2:33What do you want to happen as a result of this? Well, I'd go two things. One is something this year that has kind of hit me is being in the room where no one else is. So, for example, I had to Roden Glover from Jaguar. Like the world seems to go into meltdown after Jaguar did their thing. But I was able to get in the conversation with him to find out what's really going on. And so I, you know, it's a bit like every creative endeavor only succeeds if you constantly reset the bar. Yep. And what I've learned from this podcast is I can't stand still. I can't go, this is good enough. No, of course not.

3:09I literally every six months have to go, right, where's the bar? And the bar today is having conversations with the most influential people in the world in a way that no one else can. Like Will Godara, for example, last week. Oh, man, I was so pumped to do that conversation. I was actually jealous you spoke to that dude. He's a real one, yeah. It is. He's the real deal. Every damn answer to every question was just like gold. So I want to be in the room where no one else is, to have the conversations that could really change how we see the world and how marketers have the confidence. Because I think we've been in a crisis of confidence for too long now, and I want to put marketers back in that place of confidence.

3:46I think that would be my dream for this podcast. And then the second thing is I want to make it happen in the real world because I think there's a – I mean, we're automating everything. everything's online right yeah and i i just think there's an energy about being together so i want to create like a movement where the best marketers in the world get together and we just have like one incredible pep talk you know um an inspiration where we you know just get people together i connect a bit like you said the people you surround yourself with are your yeah your crew yeah are your crew i think marketers is a disgusting word but um i fantasized on your behalf coming over here today and i was like you're a replacement for letterman in the world of creativity you're sat on American television, the only person that could possibly interview Michelle as she retakes the seat of power.

4:30You know, because really a lot of the stuff you're talking about now, I find very thrilling. Really has nothing to do with marketing. Yeah. I mean, it can do if you like, but not really. You know, it's about brand, it's about experience, it's about story, it's about meaning. I find all that quite thrilling to do, so well done. Well, back at you, man. What do you want to happen? I think we're on the cusp of doing something really really special I would say that but I think um we are eight studios in Stockholm New York and London now all jamming we I don't think we've ever had a better spread of disciplines in the studio our design practice is world class I would argue we're moving into built environment and architecture we're moving into filmmaking we just did the thing with feathers with Benedict Cumberbatch all the bullshit I promised myself we might do is starting it's just starting to maybe just happen John and you know you and I've talked before about deluded pictures that we paint ourselves in the future but I think some of that is starting to occur so I just think it's that thing where I couldn't possibly allow us to my biggest fear is is being dictated to now by the business as it is to your point and that can happen you know a business once it gets to a certain scale starts to tell you what to do which is quite weird you tell it what to do when you start and I worry a little that we're listening to the business too much and not to what we want it to be so we're going to keep trying to push at that i love that man i was watching your dna d talk recently and i love how you framed starting this business in the worst possible time in history and what you learned through that yeah what would you say if someone's listening to this i mean you're probably one of the most inspirational founders in the industry like what would you what would you advise someone else who's listening and thinking because you have this amazing phrase I absolutely love, you know, in terms of create the thing that you wished existed in the world.

6:19Which is brilliant because, I mean, the way you describe it, which I love, is particularly in this industry, we're at the service of other people's agenda so often, aren't we? Yeah, 100%. And then we go, hang on a minute, I've just got this amazing creative idea. I could do this. Why does it have to be someone else's? Well, just a massive bugbear for us. It has to be personal. I think it has to be personal. And a bugbear for us has been not only are you in service, I think client service is probably the worst phrase ever to be invented. you know i don't know any creative of any note that wants to wake up in service of anybody secondly though when you really think about who you're in service of in that dynamic often they're people less ambitious than you so what you spend your life doing is asking permission of a bunch of people who care less than you do to make your dreams come true which is mad i also think there's this thing at the moment where you know everyone what would you do what would you start don't confuse shit ads for the death of creativity just don't confuse the two there's loads of shit ads but creativity is far from dead.

7:13So I think starting something that refocuses on creativity in the scarcest, most powerful meaning of that word is huge. If I could do it all again, I probably wouldn't make an advert though. I would make objects. I mean that. Like if you look at the ordinary work we've made for the last couple of years, most of the most successful famous work from the studio, it's been what we call narrative objects or experiences, the one second suit. that's the idea that you would make a product or a space or a thing that story tells a brand and its values better than any ad ever could and i think if i could do it all again i'd just make a series of objects for people that doesn't mean we wouldn't have big brand thinking behind them it's just the route to market is far more incisive yeah i i love the ordinary work it's it i think it's as close as i can remember to a sort of 1984 moment weekend because i think what was so good about that is you were very clear about who the enemy was and what change you wanted to create and he even had that vibe of like revolution about it didn't he just anyone who hasn't seen that work just describe it a little bit because it's a periodic fable yeah yeah so well the ordinary the ordinary are an amazing brand started by brandon um bless him you know decim and the ordinary and they really wanted to put a dent in the whole industry you know and you and i talk a lot about this don't we but you know categories in which you know deserve a good shake up and he launched the ordinary and the ordinary is amazing you know it's very much about no bullshit it's like you pay for what you get and it works and it's great and really they were like look can you take the gloves off and can you keep getting us talked about in that context so one of the things we made was called the periodic fable which was we did a monitor of the entire beauty industry and all the buzzwords and the bullshit that it uses and there are hundreds of them and we found the most guilty perpetrators like i think we found you know 70 of them or something and unpack them into a into a version of the periodic table point is when you make an object like that you then go to yourself well how do we tell the world about that object not how do we tell the world about ordinary's values and so we were like well what are we going to do and we were like well if we've all been learning these horrendous lessons let's create the most psychopathically dark classroom in history and it was and it was pretty fucking dark i mean the director murdered it but you know imagine we're all sat there learning these beauty lessons you know fat freezing it's kind of terrifying and just unpack that and so that was what we did and the game then is well how shocking and how provocative can you make that content in order to get people to this table but i'm so proud of all that work the crew that run the ordinary are amazing the secret ingredient we made you know that pile of of 10 and a half million dollars in new york there were queues around the block to go and see which is the average amount of money you know celebrities are paid for skincare endorsements is that right yeah 10 and a half million yeah crazy you know um and so it was it's it's all that stuff and the subject matter is so good we're not going to run out of fuel just rewind back a little bit you you put 10 and a half million dollars what so we took a corner store i i Fucking love New York for this.

9:58You know, we made this thing called Rat Boot a while ago. Let me just go with me on this, which was a boot with a pair of rats in for New York Fashion Week. Don't ask why. We wanted to get talks about. I think if you'd have done Rat Boot in London, a geezer would have lent out of a van and gone, what are you doing with those boots on? You do it in New York. You know, everyone's filming it. The film gets 130 million views. Was this like New York Fashion Week or something? Yeah. The film gets 130 million views. Crazy. It's the most famous bit of work, whether I like it or not. So we realised that New York is like this tinderbox for conversation.

10:23we were like anything we do there is going to be you know much more explosive so we're like right how do we highlight this fact that all these celebs are getting paid you know your skincare costs 90 quid say insane why does it cost 90 pounds well it costs 90 pounds because they've given you know leonardo dicaprio 10 million quid and we were like well how do we highlight that and we're like well what if we just showed everybody what that looked like and so we found this corner you know on grand i think it was in canal maybe something and it was amazing it was an amazing spot and we were like well what if we just put 10 and a half million you know dollars in there the night before um we uh did this fucking thing and i'm so grateful we did it we had a couple of geezers turn up in a van security guards in hyvers vests huge dudes carrying bags of cash and we just let some of the cash fall out the top of the bags and people were filming like what is happening and then we made this huge pile of money um but yeah it was um it was huge you know people were queuing around the block to come see it and it was like just to marvel at what 10 and a half million dollars look like and it is quite berserk when you that is amazing isn't it yeah it's nuts but again and forgive me for waxing on it but this this is the science of work like this so you you make an object or a place and then you ask yourself how quickly can the images and the story of that travel so the window with the the decal on it security guards stood outside the pile of cash it was all critical and you art direct that almost like a shoot in its own right and i think that um that skill set is something i think the studio is getting really really good at you know, on a variety of clients.

11:49But yeah, I'm fascinated by that style of... Because that matters, doesn't it? Because you've got to get that so right for people to believe it and actually... For people to believe it, but also, John, for the people that didn't queue around the block to understand it. Yeah. You know, it's ironic to me that you take a different marketing model, you know, you take a public space for two days and you craft it the same way you would any ad campaign, except that has 10 times the reach because it's in every newspaper and it's on every news channel. You know, and I think that shape of work is tantalizing.

12:18You know, I think people will be talking about The Secret Ingredient or The Periodic Fable in five years. You know, my adverts probably far less, sadly. Well, you're making things to be shared, aren't you? Trying. And to create stories that people want to tell. Yeah, we talk about reference points, man. I always, you know, but I was always obsessed with this statement, you know, about the movie industry, which is like, we're not trying to win the opening weekend. That's important. We're trying to become, you know, something that people refer to in five or 10 years when they think of an emotion or when they think of a subject matter.

12:48And I really hope, or the intention with our work is that the studio is muttered alongside that. You know, that's always been our dream is that we somehow wake up and someone is having a conversation and they say our studio's name in 10 years' time, you know, or 20, hopefully. People talk about the economist's work now, still. You know, they talk about BW work. You know, they talk about the iPod. You know, a thousand songs in your pocket. I'm like, how do we stand remote chance of being a conversation like that. That's the game at the moment. I love that. And I mean, Conor is a great reference, isn't it?

13:20Because they can just put out a poster that says chat GDP. Yeah. And like everyone knows the idea, right? And that gets talked about shared. And it's because they've owned an idea so clearly in our minds. Yeah, a format. And a color and a font even. Yeah, we're obsessed with that too. So I love that you spotted that. Like we analyze all that crap all the time. When we do out of home, we love out of home here. And we always go hunting for a format. We don't just want to make one good poster. We're like, how do we create something that is beautiful in its own right but almost becomes its own game to the point where the consumer and the real world are just going, fuck, I wish there were more of those.

13:57And they understand it already. You have a much higher chance, I think, of being important if you do that. The OG purpose of your visit work for BA is probably the best example we've got. And you guys as well, you focus so much on simplifying the idea. And I think the temptation for most brand managers is like, put the messages in, put the offers in there, make sure they've got the QR code. But everything you do is beautifully simple. Thank you. I mean, in out of home, I think it's critically important. And I know people talk about the rules of out of home. They go simple and consistent. The other truth there is you can be simply boring and consistently shit.

14:29And we were like, actually, we need to be inflammatorially, if that's a word, simple. How am I simple in a way that's remarkable, almost arrogant with some of the work? I mean that sincerely. How is it almost insulting because the rest of the industry behave a certain way to behave as simply as we could that feeling is one we really chase i'd also argue you and me are old fuckers right let's fantasize for a second in our alternate life that we're both in paris in 30 years noodling around antique shops and we find adverts from now you're not going to find adverts with a fucking qr code on in there and you're not going to put them on your wall if they do have one on you know you're going to put up the things that epitomize to time yeah and that's the way we're trying to make i love that reference it's a bit like when we grew up and you had the lamborghini countash on you know 100 on the wall right you know that they were the antique shops now and you see beautiful old ads i mean i think booze brands used to own a format you know guinness owned a format and i think that's the thing we're chasing is like christ wouldn't it be amazing you know if the ba reflections work was was you know collectible yeah let's talk ba because that's um that's obviously live now uh breaking i think windows man was was was such good work and you know what why change i think that's probably the question everyone had is like why why move on from what was such a good idea it was just a gift you know to to we were sort of looking at it and we were like wouldn't it be amazing if you just looked the other way out the window if you saw what they were seeing first of all and i love the story of that the real world won't understand that i mean i i think windows was great and we could continue to run windows but when you land on an idea like that i i felt like it was a race to execute it.

16:07There's that phrase, isn't there, Rick Rubin has, which is nobody stole your idea. I landed on that for BA and I thought to myself, there's only very few brands that could do it because your brand has to be so fucking iconic that you have been in that place where you see the logo reflected in the fuselage and whatever. That said, I was suddenly terrified and I know that's the mark of a good idea when you see something and you're like, now my terror was finding an idea. Now that I've found this one, my terror is someone else doing it. And I was like, we just have to fucking make this. and the simplicity and the truth of BA, and I fly a lot, but taking you to these places and these moments you have either before you land or when you've taken off and how that feels and all that romance and weirdness going on in your head, the expansiveness and the promise of travel that that brand holds, I just think is amazing.

16:57And now you could try very hard to try and say that in an advert, but what we tried to do is make you feel it. I mean that's the two things I loved well lots of things I loved about it but I think you've got it exactly because the moment that just before you land where you've spent all your money you've invested you're going somewhere you're really looking forward to it you might be meeting someone with your family whatever right that moment you're about to land is always when you're looking looking out the window going oh you know look at New York skyline that kind of thing it's that feeling you get then isn't it which I just thought was beautifully captured and in so many different environments as well yeah and then the other thing i thought was interesting is because like well as we joked about hiding the logo in plain sight you know but but giving the audience a little bit of work to do yeah i think psychologically it was quite interesting yeah and 99.99 % of brands could never do that yeah you you have to be you have to own an idea you have to be a brand that's known and loved for you to get away i mean i think maybe apple and nike could probably get away with that you know yeah being so subtle with their branding but I think that was the in a way asking the audience a making something so beautiful of a moment but then asking the audience to kind of almost solve the puzzle in their mind yeah you know psychologically but poke them I think the audience do want to do work yeah the audience in inverted commas are as sick of being served averageness as we are you know they're as sick of it as we are of making it and I think they want to be poked and provoked you know the things they like the most are the cleverest are the most interesting and I don't think that idea was really that clever i'll tell you why because there was absolutely nothing else the rules of that idea are you can't put anything else on it no website no link no call to act you can't the moment you do that you divert the attention you have screwed it so the only thing they'll go hunting for is who brought me this message because those by the way are the rules of advertising which we've established for 100 years there is a thing on this poster i wonder who made it they will do the fucking work and it's fun to well we tested it system one actually what what was fascinating oh man did you see that cartoon that guy oh yeah i know although it's like having a pop at us i just thought it was hilarious it was something on the lines of like you know what does the quantitative you know econometric modeling say about this one maybe i'll just bet you know have a beer and check the system one yeah two guys two guys on the street discussing system one results i'm just you fucking wish john well you know i just think if they're talking about you that's good right i mean i i take that even if it's uh you know it's a studio rule as well mate yeah yeah Yeah, we're good with it.

19:27The worst thing is not being talked about, right? So the question everyone had is, well, who can tell it? You know, in two seconds, who can tell it's from BA, right? So we did the test on this. 40 % of people spotted it was BA in two seconds. And in about seven or eight seconds, which is how long we exposed people to the ad before we asked them how they feel about it, got to about 80%. Now, I actually think, because that's below average, right? I think that's pretty damn good. because given that that's the first exposure, of course, you've got a big media bias being shared on social, everything else like that.

19:59So I think it gives credit to your idea that actually sometimes you can ask the audience to do a bit of work for you. I also think, well, thanks for that. That's good to know. And I'm sure someone somewhere will poke me in the eye about that. What is also interesting about that though is it doesn't necessarily describe the context in which you are making your mind up about that brand. So I think most brands go now and put up posters and go, how do 100 % of people know this is immediately from us? Yep. And how do 100 % of people know you're still incredibly boring and still force feeding advertising they fucking hate to them?

20:27And so I think the context in which you digest that information is also really important. Fantasy of mine is that in five seconds someone's looked at that, works it out and goes, oh, that's the most we can ask. Yeah. Or even better, they might hold up a phone and take a fucking picture of it. There you go. Which is like. Or take their own version of it when they're landing and then share that. That's all. And then go, I'm doing a BA. That's it. That's what you want to get to eventually. There's an amazing bit of research, actually. I need to dig it out. From quite a few years ago, this is actually my first kind of experience with the team at System One.

20:58This is John, the founder. He did this experiment with two banking clients, right? And on one bank, basically just had this very emotional message about being with you through life, you know, thick and thin through life. You can imagine the kind of thing, right? This other banking ad had all the, our stores are open longer. We've got better rates. You know, here's our customer service centers. We're on every high street. It basically told you all the reasons to believe in that bank. He then went and did a survey to find out how people rated both banks on rational messages. The emotional ad that had zero messages aced it on everything.

21:34So what happened is basically that if you feel good about the brand, every question you ask about, oh, how good is the customer service? And so it all went up. The one that actually said, we have good customer service, it didn't change the needle at all. And I think this is a thing that most advertisers don't understand. A lot of our brands approach us for that, though. You know, I think we were talking about B &Q, you know, a while back. And I think the relationship we have with B &Q is rooted in that shift, which is somehow how do we ignite that deep emotional love for that brand? I think BT, similarly, you know, apparently the bitch of the year.

22:04I think you're looking at that brand and we're incredibly excited about that work and the relationship we have. But, you know, speaking to Alison, the CEO, and it's all about what they stand for and what they believe in. And I think it's an incredibly exciting time for them. And I think akin to the BA work, no one will see that coming. Yeah. I can't fucking wait. Man, that's going to be awesome. I'm glad you mentioned being cute. I would probably cite that as my favourite out of home from you. And look, for partly personal reasons, but it was post-COVID. We were just, you know, everyone was kind of, no one could move house.

22:34Everyone was redoing their homes. I was in a very unusual position because just before COVID, we had a house fire and I literally lost all my contents, everything, right? including all the family albums, everything, right? So we were actually living in a travel lodge with only like the clothes we were wearing for a few weeks and we were going to rent all the whole thing. And what was interesting about that moment, that time, so I've got two daughters, right? And they both reacted completely differently. Like the eldest was imagining a whole different home, a different bedroom. I want an ensuite daddy on a walk-in.

23:07She moved on, right? The younger daughter was affected very differently. She wanted to go back. and so she was saying to me daddy i want to recreate my bedroom and she was into i think it was like tropical sort of plant design so you know the lampshade the curtains the bed covers they all had these like you know kind of beautiful uh tropical plants on it was lovely and for her what she needed partly of the healing of the kind of trauma and stuff was to recreate that bedroom And I remember searching everywhere for a particular print and a particular style to try and exactly match the thing that she had lost.

23:45And I remember literally going through B &Q trying to find, you know, the Pantone match and the design, this sort of thing. And then you went out and you're like, man, you really got me. I was totally choked up. And I saw you're out of home about, you know, we'll grow back or whatever. I'm like, that sent chills down my spine. That's amazing. Because in the moment, that's what I was trying to do. And maybe I was in a more extreme position than most people were. When I first met Paddy, we had this conversation, and Paddy was the guy leading the pitch at that point. And we had a conversation, and it was really, it was like, I wasn't a big DIYer, and he could smell it.

24:20No shit. And we had a conversation, though, and I went, listen, I'm going to tell you what the gateway drug to DIY is. It's hanging a pitcher. And I'll tell you what it's really about is you hang that pitcher in that room, and it changes the room but what it tells your kid is i care and you matter and i'm going to put this on the wall to show you that you can make a change and that things can move forward your your story is even more powerful you know that i can rebuild this life either as a new one or the old one you love you know that's a huge power for a parent that was all sat under let's be honest a category that had people zooming around on segues talking about prices and so again i was like this is ridiculous there is this immense ready to burst well of fucking emotion we have to fucking get on that and so all the work build a life you know really was was that insight from the picture right back you know you don't paint your kids room you tell them that it's safe and that they can dream and that it can be anything they want it to be and that their environment can change and that is massive lessons you know and you do that for your partner you know and so anyway that we lost it on that and just went and went and went you know and it was it again was an exercise in how simply and there was a mix of romance like you know i love the romance of that work like you know i'm a i'm a yeah bit of a saddo in that sense i don't think there's enough of that in in our world and i love that but there's also humor in it you know one of my favorite ads was beginner and it was just a poster with a spirit level but the whole ad was off we put it off four degrees You know, it's just like things like that.

25:54That's real life, isn't it? And this is, you know, so much of it is like, we're going to smash prices. Go on, do your DIY voice. Is that the wrong? Yeah, it's like, smashing prices since 1955. 54 shades of blue. Because it's all like, but that's the category, right? And this is the insight you guys totally nailed on, to use the pun. Is it's emotional? Because what you're doing is deeply emotional. Your home is like everything, isn't it? It's everything, 100 % it's everything. And this is what that entire category has missed for so many years. Yeah, I think so. Apparently, IKEA are up for pitch.

26:27So if they're listening, this is me making a shameless... What do you want to happen as a result of this conversation? Well, that's exactly right. Yeah, well, man, I mean, again, you know, I don't know. I feel like right or wrong. They've had a great sort of suite of adverts over the years. But again, I think the brand is missing certainly some emotional connection to the world at the moment. I don't know why, but I feel like that's true. And they've got a very unique take on it as well. They do. They do. So sticking on the out of home thing, the work I've seen from you recently, which I keep smiling at, I don't know if it's still running, but the Hiscox rip-off ads, that is just so clever.

27:01I think as a marketer, when I look at out of home, you're constrained by it's 2D, you've got two seconds. So how do you land an emotion and a message in that time? The Hiscox stuff does that amazingly. Yeah, thank you. The most disastrous campaign. That's the gag. I mean, that's the actual game. It's so funny. We did this whole pitch. I'm going to be really honest. We did this whole pitch, and we had brilliant clients over there, Fee and the rest of the crew, absolutely amazing. And we had this idea which was really, you know, insurance isn't insurance, it's the story of your business. And actually, the ups and downs, particularly the downs, are a huge part of it all.

27:38And we sort of landed on this massive territory, and then we landed on this bit of work where the first work we did was how bad it could get. We were like, hang on a minute, this is like crack. It just kept writing itself. There's a load of work on TV that's going to come up that I hope you're going to love. But I think, again, it's incredibly disruptive, you know, really new in that sense. And we just sort of landed on it. And we were like, bloody hell, how wrong could it go? And you go, yeah, there's disastrous posters. The posters fall over or they get flooded. Another thing, though, was like, as a brand, how wrong could it go?

28:05Because they insure brands. And we were like, well, other people ripping you off, other people sort of stealing your IP. And we just, it was a gift, you know, to take other people's advertising codes. What got me, John, was it was incredibly difficult to convince brands to do it. Do you mean the brands you were ripping off? Yeah, yeah. So we were like, you know, Weetabix or whoever. It was like, you know, Burger King were one of them, if they're listening, sadly. But I was like, why wouldn't, you know, the rules of engagement are not in any way derogatory. In fact, it's kind of flattery to be featured because it suggests you have advertising codes that are strong enough.

28:38And we were like just, you know, ringing around, desperately trying to get these brands to say yes. and it was like, fuck, this is free media, dude. And a load of them wouldn't. So, I mean, look, we're trying to make the next phase of that work. But if anyone listening fancies it. And also, for anyone who doesn't realise, the idea was that you did think you were looking at a Specsavers ad because it's got Specsavers colours, it even says should have gone to. Hiscock's obviously been in the payoff. But it does look like a Specsavers ad. And then you've got the reveal at the bottom. Yeah, you know, if someone steals your IP, then come over here.

29:04I think that's right. But, yeah, it was just killing me. You know, we were like Burger King. Even our friends, actually, we just discussed at P &Q were too nervous to do it. And I was just like, man, that's just a no-brainer. So, yeah, it just got me. So we're looking for the next phase of that. So if anyone's listening fancies that, great. Actually, talking to Specsavers, I think one of my favourite out of home, this is where owning an idea can be so powerful. I don't know if you saw this a couple of years ago now, but Specsavers took a massive billboard out of Sydney Airport and just put, welcome to Melbourne.

29:30Yep. So I, there was, I don't know if I should say it, I'm going to say it, fuck it. There was a rumour that they were going to do a parody of our reflections ads. Really? And one of our creators here immediately got to, you know, Welcome to Glasgow. And it was over the Maldives. And we got to, you know, Welcome to whatever. And it was like, we're just like, fuck, man, please, please do it. I don't know if they could. Yeah, we were like, yeah, let's go. Yeah, great brand, man. They've done some amazing stuff. So out of home, let's move on to film as well. All right. I'd love to talk about some of your film work recently because it's been absolutely amazing.

30:05We talked about The Ordinary, of course, which was incredible. Now, as a former skate boy from the kind of 80s, he grew up on the Bones Brigade. Most people listening can watch him talk about. But your EA work, man, I just thought that was exceptional. But what I love about it is it shows your respect and understanding of culture and how you kind of really understand culture in a kind of a deep way. Because that film is just oozing absolute respect. And it was no actors, right? No, zero. Yeah, everybody. Genuine skaters. Everyone had to be skater, even the crew. You know, like the guys holding, you know, the cameras and the lighting and everything.

30:43Everyone was a skater. Everybody. And that really came across. All the tricks, the camera angles, the jokes. Yeah, the grain of the film we shot on. Yeah, it was good. I mean, the other thing I think, thank you for seeing that. Like, we love that work deal. It was like a massive privilege. I grew up skating, Harrow Skate Center, Bay 66, South Bank. Yeah, South Bank, yeah. All that, love it. And the other thing we were obsessed with, though, is also remaining true to the game. so if you play OG Skate which is fucking brilliant the the frankly you know candidly with the client hat on um the fuck-ups in the game were some of the best bits so there'd be like a board stuck halfway through a wall or a player stuck upside down in a trick and it'd be glitching away and you'd be like oh man it was kind of cool and so if you look at the film it's just riddled with these as well you know where we were like how do we just stay true to that but a real privilege to do that work you know and again starting to scratch at it there's more to come there but um I just fucking love that.