No GUT no glory; from startup to Cannes Lions agency of the year in 5 years - Anselmo Ramos

33:02It's quite a rare person you've described. So from your point of view, how do you ensure that you're going to work with the right kind of client that's going to be able to do the quick approvals, be creative, be brave? So I guess, how do you assess your clients really in terms of who you want to work with? Yeah, I think at the beginning of God, in the first couple of years of God, we were all about bravery, you know, and it was a bit too much. You know, we were like, sometimes we would get an RFI and we would send one back, right? We call that the reverse RFI. So, okay, you have some questions for us as an agency.

33:39We also have some questions for you as a client, right? Here are 20 questions. And the question would be something like, what's your favorite ad of all time? What kind of communications you want to do? What's your wildest creative ambition? Do you realize our name is God? And things like that. You know, it was a fun exercise. Sometimes client would answer them all and they would think, oh, this is funny. And sometimes clients wouldn't think that that's a great idea. They would go like, well, we're the ones asking the questions here. How dare you? So it was very, it was a very interesting tool to assess what kind of clients they would be, right?

34:17That was the beginning of God, you know, and then we kept saying we're a brave agency for brave clients, right? And then it got to a point that a lot of clients would not consider us at all because they thought that maybe we were too brave or they wouldn't see the link between bravery and results. And then, you know, we realized that we had to talk to, you know, in order to talk to more clients, you know, and help them to be open to work with God. We said, listen, bravery is not binary. There's no such thing as you are brave and you are not brave. Okay, bravery is a choice. It's a daily conscious choice.

34:59And then we created the bravery scale. The bravery scale is a tool to help clients to become more creative and their organizations to become more creative over time. Basically, it goes from zero to 10. And it's a scale, right? Zero is completely dominated by fear. And 10 is there's no other way to live. And five is sometimes brave, sometimes safe. And then it's a scale. and we have tips for each stage along the way. And we've had cases of clients that would join us and there were a two or a three and now there are seven or eight. And usually from all experience, it takes one year per stage, right?

35:46So as long as you are moving up on the bravery scale, it's fine, you know, because it's a process. It's very hard to change an organization over time. You know, it takes time. The problem is when you are going down the bravery scale. That's when we have to talk, you know, maybe we're not right for each other, you know. That's real. Well, big respect for doing that. Because I think it's, I mean, you know, it can sound a little bit arrogant, say we're going to do a reverse RFI on the client, but actually it's a really good thing to do because you're forcing the client to think, what do we actually want?

36:20And do we know what we're going to get? I remember asking Fernando when he was on the podcast going, you know, when you're applying for a new job, right, you know, you think about a new job, is there a risk that they're going to hire you? And he goes, you hire Fernando Machado, you get Fernando Machado. It's like, you know, it's fairly obvious from all the things I've done, what you're going to get kind of thing. And so you kind of reputation procedure, which I thought was a very good answer to the question. I think every agency out there should do a reverse RFI. Yeah. I really think that the whole industry should do it because, you know, it's like a date.

36:52we're both assessing each other to see if, you know, to see if there's chemistry and to see if this is going to be a great relationship, you know. The problem is that when it becomes one-sided, there's just one side choosing. And I think it should be both sides choosing. Makes a lot of sense. Neil said this thing actually when I had him on the show that if you haven't bought the work in the first six months, Oh, I love that. We'll put the price up 25%. I told Neil that I'm going to steal that. by join Niels. I'm going to steal that idea. And I think the whole industry should do that. Particularly with your always-on idea, right?

37:26If you're constantly coming up and people are putting their passion and energy into all these ideas, that would make loads of sense. I love that idea. Let's come on to some of the awards, shall we? Because congratulations. So this year, I think you were not only independent creative agency of the year at Cannes, but agency of the year and even independent network of the year. Is that right? Yeah, it was insane, John. It was a dream come true. Friday night in Cannes, I couldn't hold it. I was, you know, holding the award of Independent Network of the Year and I just started to cry, cry, crying in front of the whole industry because it was very emotional for us.

38:04We take this very seriously. And yeah, and ever since, you know, since June, we've been crying almost every day and we're still processing what happened there and, you know, all the learnings and what exactly we did together. In March, we took almost 500 people to Buenos Aires, Argentina for a gut event. You know, it was a crazy thing to do, very expensive and, you know, with crazy logistics. And it was the best thing, you know, we did. You know, and when we had all the seven offices together for three days, we had the gut band playing we had a soccer world cup you know the final was brazil and argentina of course you know brazil won in that case and um and it was so emotional you know to have everyone there and gaston and i we shared 25 lessons from the first five years you know and and it was a very emotional moment but but yeah this year um in can was just historical and it was magical you know very very hard to repeat what were the uh what were the biggest of those lessons or what are the ones that stick out the most one lesson is to have your priorities right and our priorities are people first, work second, clients last.

39:36And we say that to our clients. And the best clients understand exactly what we're saying. And what we're saying is, if your people are happy, inspired, nurtured, provoked, they're gonna do great work. And if they do great work, your clients will be happy. So it's a consequence, right? A lot of times agencies put work first, right? And then people suffer or they put clients first. They'll do whatever the client wants. But then, you know, that's not necessarily a good thing, you know. So, yeah, we have our priorities, like, you know, in a very clear way, you know. Yeah, that makes complete sense.

40:17So I love your first meeting with clients. So we're going to do an RFI on you. And we're going to remind you that you're actually third in our list of priorities. But I agree, it's surprising, isn't it? And it may sound a bit arrogant, but actually it has the client's interest at heart in that idea, doesn't it? Totally. And it shows a level of seriousness that you're taking the creative process and desire to do good work. So I think it's fantastic. The best clients understand what we're saying. Yeah, exactly. It's a very good way of filtering out the non-serious clients, actually. Because you're right, the right clients will actually respect and appreciate and get it immediately.

40:49They totally understand. It's a good way of weeding out the clients you don't want, really. Yeah. um so you won obviously won the the big accolade at can this year and you also add weak breakthrough agency of the year as well i noticed so congratulations on that what were some of the winners the grand prix winners this year that you that kind of stand out for you i know it's the collection now of uh of winners but what did what are you most proud of this year yeah this year was crazy we won three grand prix in three different categories and um we love the one for Peditos Yacht, you know, the cup delivery.

41:22That's my favorite, yeah. Total World Cup wins, that was... It's incredible. Yeah, just describe it for anyone listening. Yeah. How that works. It's a very simple idea. Peditos Yacht is a delivery app, right? And basically, we sent a push notification to the whole country saying, your order is on the way, right? And then people... Now, just context for everyone listening as well. This is just after the World Cup. Yes, exactly. Right after it, yeah. And Argentina of just one, right? Exactly. So we just sent a push notification to the whole country in Argentina saying, your order is on the way. And people got really pissed.

41:59Like, I didn't order anything. What the fuck is happening, Petit Rousia? This is not good. They got, it was basically a prank, right? In the entire country. And then after a while, we revealed that the order was actually the cup. Yes, of course. Because we linked the app, the Peridose app, with the flight carrying the cup. So when it says how far away is your order, you can track it. You can actually see where the World Cup was going. You can actually track the cup coming to Argentina. And then when people realized that that was the order, they loved it. They said, oh my God, that was amazing, Peridose.

42:40Thank you so much. So it was a prank. yeah you know and and it was a very simple idea it was a push notification idea you know cost was zero well exactly because it doesn't cost anything and you're using your own media right because they've got all these people's contact details and they're using a notification that you send to say your deliveries here it's like zero cost nothing and it was a proactive idea yeah right it was done in two days oh was it yeah we presented to the client well so this is literally straight after argentina won the world cup right and it wasn't and it wasn't a brief yeah you know it's a very good example of a proactive idea we said hey what if we do this right and yeah it was a great proactive idea from got buenos aires yeah you know just perfect that's very very clever the other one that we like a lot is the the stellar to our idea the r2 probability right?

43:32It's a great idea because basically in a lot of oil paintings, you see beer, right? You see glasses of beer portrayed on those paintings. And Stellar Toit is from 1366. And then we said, wait a minute, maybe it's related, right? Maybe some of this beer could be Stellar Toit. So what if we try to find if it's actually Stéle-et-Trois? And then using data, we analyzed each glass in terms of the type of glass, the color of the liquid, the distance between where the painting was generated and the brewery. So a lot of different data inputs. And then we created a percentage. you know okay so this painting by henroir has um 67 of artois probability and that was the idea right that's genius yeah yeah we like we like the line at the end of the case study that says we'll never know if van gogh painted a style to a but he probably did he probably did that's absolutely brilliant we're talking about orlando earlier in his book and it's it reminded me of that so much because he uses like art history to show how advertising has changed through generations so he's going to love this when he sees it i'm going to make sure you know to actually spot you know stellar and you're right though i'd never thought about it until i saw it but so many paintings are set in what would have been the pub you know or the bar or the yeah the social meeting house or where people got together to socialize that was so much part of the yeah the idea was there in front of us and and nobody did it so and and that's the beauty of when you see an idea like that go, I cannot believe that it hasn't been done before, you know, it's kind of obvious you know.

45:18Only obvious after you see it there, I mean again, when I saw it I'm like this is unusual, you know because you've got the music and the paintings coming, you know all the paintings over the years, it's beautifully done, so very very well done Thank you. Am I right in saying that anyone in your agency can answer any brief at any time as well? Because you talk about one line briefs don't you as being Yeah, yeah, we tend to share like what the brand is all about to all the creatives, right? Because we want everyone to deeply know the brand. So when they come up with a proactive idea, it's on brand.

45:54We don't want any client to tell us, oh, this is off brand. This is horrible. So we always try to talk about, okay, this is the brand, this is the brand personality, this is the brand positioning to all the creatives so they know that when they come up with an idea, it's gonna be 100 % on brand, you know, and it's gonna be driving business results, you know, because it's addressing something very concrete, you know, about the brand. And sometimes we write like a one-line brief, you know, it's just like a one line and that's the line, you know. So what was a really good example of a one-line brief that you've had?

46:31We have many, we have one-line briefs for almost every client. I think the most famous one in our careers is probably the one that we did for Burger King. Like when we wrote Play With Fire, you know, back in the day, because it was about flame grilling. And then we said, play with fire. And it was so simple, right? And any creative can understand that, right? Oh, okay. I'll just play with fire to communicate flame grilling, which by the way, will drive, you know, results. but we try to find that for all the clients, you know, because it just makes, you know, everything so simple. So looking out at other agencies, what do you admire the most at the moment if you were to look out and see outside of the agency?

47:17Who's doing some cool stuff? I think Uncommon is doing great work. It's really fresh, you know, fresh and design-oriented. It's great. I think Rethink is having fun. And then, you know, you have, you know, of course, Widen, right? and the marketing agency because again, we're a bunch of ad nerds. We watch ads all the time. But I also like just to watch other things as well, you know, because if you just watch advertising, it's also not good, right? So I love movies and cinema and I just love to watch other things as well, especially movies. So because it's a combination of things, you have to watch everything in your profession, right?

47:58You need to have advertising knowledge right and sometimes i feel that the young generation don't have that they don't study advertising history and they should they need to know you know um cliff freeman and philom mcgallagot and apple midweekers and you know all the classics right ddb bill barrenbuck they need to know that and a lot of people don't know so they need to study the history of advertising so that's important but it's also important just to you know um know what's the latest meme and watch, you know, a new movie by 824 and just read everything and just be curious about life, you know.

48:38Now you've had an incredible five years, you know, since you founded it. I mean, I guess you went from table 57 to the, you know, the creative agency of the year at Cannes in just five years, which is amazing. Well, I guess a couple of questions. How do you stay true to who you are and how do you scale at the same time? Because, you know, now you employ, How many people do you employ? 500 plus people? 570. Seven offices around the world. More coming soon, hopefully. How do you keep the spirit of what you've created and make sure that you're always going to be kind of at the top of your game creatively?

49:11Yeah, it's all about culture. We are obsessed about designing the culture. If you don't design the culture, the culture will design itself. So we are very intentional when it comes to culture. you know we going back to the the branding thing you know we we treat gut as a brand so we have the brand positioning the brand values and personality um you know we write principles you know so we have like 20 principles we keep writing them and we just take that very seriously we have names for things we do naming labeling you know we say oh let's show the client a gut x-ray which is kind of a version of the credentials or let's do a gut punch you know it's an idea that it's like a gut punch you know it's generate a lot it's going to generate a lot of earned media so we create tools to help people to keep the culture alive when we are not around so anyone can use the language you know anyone can use a black tea you know and so we give a lot of tools to keep the culture alive because that's our biggest challenge right now.

50:22As we grow, how can we keep the gut culture strong? And we talk about culture all the time. Sometimes we invite gutsy guest speakers and all of us jump on a Zoom call and we talk with the guest speaker. So we always talk about creativity, talking about who we are, sharing the work, talking about our values. It's very important, you know, and we travel a lot, you know, Gaston and I and Andrea, our CEO and all the partners. We travel a lot, you know, to different offices, to listen to people, to inspire them, to provoke them. How would you describe that culture for someone who's not familiar with Guts?

51:11it's a brave culture it's all about bravery trying to do brave things and we use gutsy you know as um as a word if we always say that oh she's gutsy or he's not gutsy that's how we describe someone a potential candidate or or a talent you know it's um it's a very strong culture When I came back from that event in March in Buenos Aires, we had a recap video. It's a two-minute video. And I showed that video to my daughters. They're 21 and 16. And they told me, dad, this is not an agency. It's a cult. So this is really embarrassing that don't show this to anyone. I need to see it now. You know, maybe it's a bit culty, you know, but you cannot write culture without cult.

52:03you know and we actually have a very low turnover and I think that's great you know because I think people got our talent they're amazing you know they really want to do great work and they know that we you know Gaston and I and the partners we are deep down ad nerds that love advertising and we want to do great work we just love this business one thing that Gaston says is love is our engine, right? Love is our secret. So what's the secret of God? Love. We love what we do. We love advertising. We love ideas. We love the industry, the process. We love our clients. We love our brands. We love each other, you know?

52:50So love is very tangible and clients feel that, right? You cannot fake love, but it's very tangible, you know? clients are very smart. They know if you really love the business or not. I have to say, in my brief spell, freelancing, but after I got fired, I used to do pitch training and business development training. And one of the points I used to say, really, really simple, is like passion can take you a hell of a long way in front of a client, right? If they feel that you really understand them and that you're really passionate about solving the problem, that is worth a thousand slides. you know you know and because often i used to reflect on how i'd feel after a pitch when i've met a few agencies and i'd then go back and look at the pitch decks and realize oh it wasn't necessarily the smartest deck or the cleverest words or whatever it was how i felt was often how i made the decision how i felt was pretty much do i believe the person has the passion for what i'm wanting to do and what i'm trying to sell it's incredibly powerful and i probably made more decisions just based on that, as you described it, the love or communicating the love and passion than on any, have they got the model, you know, have, you know, have they got the tea, you know, all the creds or whatever.

54:05It's much more about that. I agree. And it's also about conviction. A lot of times we go with one idea. Sometimes you can't, right? Sometimes you have to go with two or three. You have, sometimes you need to show an option, but every time we go with one idea our track record is really good because it means that that's the idea i believe you actually i i do because because again when you get three ideas the first thing in your head as a client is well you obviously not that you obviously don't have that much conviction because if you did you'd know which these three ideas was the right one and you almost it's a cop-out it's almost like going well you choose we could do this we could do that we could do the other so well i'm not here to choose between a menu of options i'm here to get the best possible answers the brief which one is it yeah it's like when um when an agency goes and you know it presents eight brilliant ideas it's very hard to have eight brilliant ideas you know um so from our experience every time we go with one idea especially in a pitch you know that's amazing because okay that's the one yeah and even if you don't win right it's okay because you had a very strong conviction yeah and you said that's the one that we would do yeah if we were in your shoes yeah right yeah but but sometimes sometimes we give too many options you know yeah and it's just like okay well it also actually makes it harder for the client because the client's having to now work through which one do i like which one's better yeah i'm not sure i like a bit of this, like a bit of that, and you end up with a hybrid of all, you know, it actually makes it more complicated than easy.

55:44I remember when, when we invited Stefan Zagmeister and Jessica Walsh to design our logo, right? I asked Stefan, what's your process? And he told me, well, you briefed me, I'll think for three months and I'm going to show you one option. I was like, wow, that's not my reality. You know, and then, and we briefed him. And then after two and a half months, he presented two options. But he said, I'm only presenting two options because, you know, you work in advertising, so it's fine. And I remember when I asked him, but Stefan, what happens when you present one option, right? What happens if the client doesn't like it?

56:31What happens if they have some feedback? He said, well, I will work on the feedback and then I'm going to present, you know, a revised option. And then I said, yeah, but what happens if the clients still have comments? And then he said, in 20 years doing this, I've never had to do a third option. I was like, oh my God, this is insane. There is so interesting psychology there because when you present someone with options, actually you start to go, I like a bit of that. I like a bit of this. I'm not, you know, actually it creates a little more uncertainty. uncertainty it's a bit like the old thing where um if you if you present one message in an ad people remember it if you present two messages they actually remember less overall because they're like you know they're struggling to compute it's a bit like with ideas which idea was the one again with the dog and which one was the one with the piano i can't really remember you know it's very confusing yeah yeah whereas one idea you know if you like it or not i mean the other thing i think is really important in any pitch situation is that from a client point of view you you listen to how you feel the very moment that you see it.

57:34That is so important because that's how your audience are going to see it and feel it, right? You know, rather than two hours of, let me walk you through the idea. And here are 15 reasons why the idea is on strategy. You know, it's got to be that first response that you want to capture. We have this thing I got that after every presentation, we cut to a slide that says, how are you feeling right now? And every office does that in every presentation because we want to get the visceral reaction first. And then we can be rational and then we can talk about the to-do list of the idea and if it's doing everything that it needs to do.

58:13But the first reaction, the first feedback needs to come from your second brain, which is your gut, not your first brain, right? so we always cut to that slide and it's a thing now and the clients they already expect that it's so powerful and it's very predictive of what happens because I mean at system one we show people an ad and then we at the end we just say how do you feel literally that's that's the first question then afterwards we go why in fact we ask why three times it's quite interesting we kind of go well why do you feel that why is that why is that and then you uncover loads of stuff about you know the gut reaction they had and you learn so much and what do you associate with the ad now you've seen it we don't ask them anything rational we don't ask them what do you remember what was the message or none of that just why do you feel how you feel perfect and that we've shown that that correlates to business success way more than asking any of the rational questions about what's the message what was the brand or you know none yeah because that's what's going to dictate if that ad is going to be forwarded or not you know because if you feel something if i'm laughing or if i'm crying yeah then i want to share that exactly yeah i'm feeling something then i'm like oh you should watch this well we have one we have one actually one other question we also ask is um when they tell us the emotion we then have a scale of that emotions from sort of you know mild to strong and um the intensity as we call it in terms of how strong the emotion is is very predictive sort of thing so you know it's not just that you create emotion but how powerful that emotion is is really important as well and i mean that's what your um yeah that's what your can line when it work does isn't it is that you don't just get it, you really feel it.

59:51Yeah, we are in the business of making people feel something. You know, when you go to watch a movie, right, basically you are choosing the emotion you want to feel. So you go, okay, I want to watch a horror movie because you want to feel scared, right? Or I want to watch, you know, like a drama because I want to cry, I feel like crying. Or I want, you know, I want comedy today because I feel like laughing. We're choosing an emotion and we're paying to have an emotion. And in advertising, we don't talk about that. You know, it's just like, you know, what's the feeling that we want to evoke? And we always try to talk with our clients in terms of, okay, that's the brief.

1:00:33Great. But what's the feeling? That's a really good question. What's the feeling that we want to evoke with this briefing? Yeah. You know, when you think about the final ad, the final idea, right? The execution. When someone sees that, what's the feeling? Do you want that person to laugh, to cry, to think, to be scared? Let's talk about that. There's a fascinating experiment we did actually where we worked out that if you feel better about an ad, all the rational perceptions go up. So for example, let's say you're advertising a bank, right? And in one banking ad you have, you know, we've got the best rate of interest.

1:01:08We have more banking branches anywhere else. We're open 24, let's say, right? you have that and they have another banking ad that doesn't talk about any of that but makes you feel something when we do the survey afterwards and ask people which one had the best rates which one had the best opening hours which one had the best customer service the one that made you feel something scores better than than all on all the rational attributes and the one that actually said those rational attributes it's amazing because that's how it works isn't it is that how the better you feel about a brand the better you feel about everything about it it's almost like the rising tide floats all bones kind of thing and that's what brands miss because they zone in on the functional thing they want to communicate and they don't realize that by making people feel something that that that will follow it's so obvious right it's not i mean it's all about emotion it's obvious but it's amazing how it gets forgotten isn't it or neglected and we don't talk about that enough yeah we tend to be very rational you know like um just a list of things that we need to say and yeah it's just yeah it's hard yeah yeah yeah we need to correct the campaign for more gut reaction.

1:02:10Okay, last question just to finish us off then. Maybe an obvious question for you, but when is gut going to come to London? Because you've opened up in lots of groups. Where are you based now? You've got LA, you've got Miami, Toronto. We are in Miami, LA, Toronto, Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires, and Amsterdam. Ah, so you're in Europe now. Yeah, yeah. Finally, we are in Europe. Amsterdam is amazing. Amsterdam is our first office in Europe. We opened six months ago, but it's just the first, right? But yeah, Yes. I'm in London right now and I love the city. I've always loved London and we'll come here one day, you know, I already have the handle.

1:02:48You bought the handle. Yeah. You know, I've had good London since, you know, five years ago. So one day, one day we'll come to town. I just love the UK market. You know, I grew up buying D &D annuals, even, you know, without knowing English. I would take D &AD annuals to my English teacher and just go page by page. Please tell me everything about that ad. So, yeah, I love the UK market and we'll come. It's not a matter of if, it's when. Great. Well, you're here at a good time because all the Christmas ads are just broken. And, I mean, we measure a system where we measure emotion on a five-star scale, five the highest um the average uh the average is about a two star for you know ads throughout the year uh this year this christmas the average is a four star and and four star is puts you in the top three or four percent of everything on our database so it's a good year it's a very good year yeah i mean you know if you look through most of the year you know the average performance the average emotion evoked from advertising would be about two to two and a half star all through year christmas four star so like all all the agencies all the advertisers do their very very best work at christmas it's become literally the super bowl i mean i mean for us here and it's also lovely because um you know we get invited to talk on in the news yeah about you know who's done the best christmas ad it becomes a conversation on social media there are people arguing getting really upset about which one was better disagreeing with each other so it's just yeah it's a wonderful full time, you know, to be over here and see the work out.

1:04:28Yeah, I want to watch them. I haven't seen them. I want to watch them all. The thing about the holiday ad brief or the Super Bowl brief that I think is funny is sometimes clients come to us and say, okay, here's a Super Bowl brief, right? The sky's the limit, you know, go crazy. We can use celebrities, you know, money's not a problem. just we want to have the most talked about ad in the Super Bowl. Right? And then for all the other briefs for the rest of the year Yeah, yes. It's like, well, you know, we don't have money. Yes, you're right. Don't, you know, don't go crazy here. We need to sell this.

1:05:06And then we, what we say is like, why not every brief should have, every brief should be a Super Bowl brief. I've got the same thing. Every brief should be a holiday brief like with that same ambition because you want that ad to be the best. You want everyone to talk about that ad. And you were saying as a client, you were bringing ambition to the table. You were saying, money's not a problem. I want just to have the best ad ever. But why not? Just for one week? Every brief should be like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? We used to have this campaign when I was growing up, very young. I think it was from the RSPCA, which is a dog charity.

1:05:41And it was a dog is, sorry, dog is for life, not just for Christmas. Yeah. And I'm just like, well, an ad is for life, not just for Christmas. Yeah. It's like, why is it every, And the other thing we worked out actually on our database is the best ads, so the best performance ads by far, as I said, is Christmas. The shortest duration of campaign is also Christmas. So you look throughout the year and the average campaign lasts for, I think it was like nine months or something. And then at Christmas, it's like three weeks. So most of my money is being spent on the shortest duration doing the best work.

1:06:12And most of the year, it's average. When you have a great idea, you don't need a lot of media. you don't need to repeat yeah yeah yeah you know like 1984 Apple it was just you know you ran once yeah and we're still talking about it yeah you know so when you have a great idea the better the idea the less media you need true you know and the less you just target it yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah very good well listen brilliant place to end an ad is for life not just for Christmas I think or not just for the Super Bowl if you're in America yeah yeah brilliant thank you Anselmo it's been amazing having you on the show thanks for having me very special to be here John in London and talking about advertising on life.

1:06:50I really enjoy it. Thank you. Right. Thank you. Cheers. Thank you so much. Cheers. Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored CMO. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do. I'm over on x at Uncensored CMO or on LinkedIn, where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching.

1:07:21I'll see you next time.