Rising from the ashes: the inspirational story of overcoming tragedy with Bozoma Saint John (former Netflix CMO)

0:06Welcome back everybody to Uncensored CMO. Now I've got a real treat for you in this episode. I'm joined by one of the most successful and well-known CMOs in all of America, Bozema St. John. She has run some of the biggest brands in the world. I'm talking about the likes of Apple, Uber, Netflix. Now, not just that, she's also written a fabulous book called This Urgent Life, covering not just her professional life, but her personal life too. It's very emotional, very well worth reading. This is a brilliant conversation. Boz is the epitome of uncensored. We get into some great conversations and she does not hold back.

0:42I know you'll love this episode. Here it is. Welcome, Bose, to Uncensored CMO. Thank you so much. I like that, being the uncensored CMO. Well, this is it. I don't think I can think of somebody more uncensored having just read your book. Well, yeah. It is uncensored by definition, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it is. Well, the funny thing is that I've been called a lot of things, as you can imagine. Unapologetic is one of them. I don't think anyone has said I'm uncensored because it is just the way I am. You know, so there's no need to describe me that way. So I think it's perfect to be here. I want to start to come out of the book because, well, first thing, congratulations on it.

1:20Oh, thank you. It's very emotional reading. It touched me in many ways, I have to say, when I read it. It brought lots of emotions out and lots of insight into your life and culture, lots of things. It was really, really quite powerful. But one of the things that amazed me is you read your own book. because I was listening to it on Audible, but you actually read it. How was it talking through your book? I mean, apart from the time it must have taken, but what was the experience of not just writing a book, but also speaking it, which is a different thing. If I'm being honest, I didn't know what I was signing up for when I said I was going to write it.

1:52I kind of did it in defiance because every publisher wanted me to write the how to be a corporate badass book or how to get to the corner office book, how to be a powerful chick book. And I was like, well, all those things are because of the personal challenges, traumas, losses that I faced. It is why I am who I am. So why would I talk about any of that stuff if I couldn't talk about what has caused me to be this person? And so when I said I was going to write my memoir, there were actually almost every publisher was like, yeah, how about we wait until the next one? But I found, you know, the right publisher was like, go for it.

2:32And in writing, it took me two years to write it. I would do it, you know, on Saturday mornings because I was working at a real, really big jobs. And writing is different because, you know, you're just sort of in your own thoughts, you know, and I did have great partners who would, you know, who I would have come in and ask me questions and then that way I could talk about it. But those are also trusted people, you know, that I could talk to about my experiences and I would just take those conversations and transcribe them and then, you know, add some more color or my editor would say, describe what the room was like or tell us what the nurse was wearing or, you know, any number of things to help jog memory.

3:11It was very, very different to then read the words aloud back. You know, even in edits when my editor was like, you know, can you relook at this chapter and add something or would ask me for some more color? It was rare that I go back and read it. You know, I would just say, okay, where did you want the color because I'll just go right to that very sentence and then write the color in there. You know, it is it was very, very difficult. And so reading it was like reliving it, whereas writing it wasn't necessarily reliving it. And that's how it felt listening as well. And I mean, honestly, I was on the edge of tears, like just listening to you.

3:50Honestly, it was incredible. But how you maintain that. I mean, you went deep, didn't you? I mean, boy, did you go deep? And you were very honest. I remember at one point you were saying that you decided that you're going to tell the whole truth and just, you know, live your truth, really. And you do throughout it. It must have been so hard to relive some of the things you went through. Oh, it was almost impossible. It really was. And, you know, thanks to movie magic or maybe audiobook magic, there were quite a few times where, yeah, my voice broke and I would have to take a pause. and the lovely editor or engineer who baked fresh sourdough bread, I'd go into the break room and take a slice and take some deep breaths and then head back in.

4:36Or some days I'd be like, you know what, that's all I got today. Can't do it anymore. And that'd be it. But it was a really grueling process. I didn't know that a lot of authors don't read their own. That's a naivete of it all. I didn't know that. Maybe I would have made a different show. I was really surprised because I've listened to a few audiobooks And Matthew McConaughey, I think he reads his Green Lights book, but most of them are not read. And I was like, oh my God, she's talking about such personal things here. Oh my God, yeah. And, you know, incredible. What's the reaction been to the book since it launched?

5:07You know, that's actually the most, the wildest thing to me is the reaction to the book. I think going into it, I thought that people would be interested by my story and then want to hear more about that, right? So again, the question of like, how does she get to what she's doing? Or how does she reach these heights? And people would be interested to know that. What has been shocking to me are even reactions like yours. Where you're like, oh, it brought me to tears. Or I connected with this part. Because I'm like, how? How did you connect with that? You know, we don't live the same life. We're not the same.

5:39If we wrote down all the things about ourselves, we'd probably be so opposite. People would be like, oh, these two. There's nothing that they have in common, you know? And so that has been the most surprising to me. And look, just going on freaking the Amazon reviews alone is like, you know, people tell you to stay out of there, you know, as an author, they're like, don't go read those reviews. But I'm in there and it is just, it's humbling, you know, to see people's reactions, their connections, the way that they want to tell their own stories. It's fascinating to be in Target or a grocery store or wherever and people are like, I want to tell you about what happened to me, you know?

6:18And then I have to stop whatever I'm doing and whatever mood I'm in and go down with them, you know? And so it's been really, really powerful to me because I've always been interested by other people's stories. And so this is a beautiful moment to have them be interested in. Yeah. I think that's the power, though, because, like, you know, we have very different experiences and lives and backgrounds, that kind of thing. but the emotion you go through and the questions you ask yourself and and having to face some situations that absolutely took me back to some moments in my life where i've lost loved ones or i've been in accidents or a house fire my house burnt down a few years ago you know you know stuff like that that you never expect and you you kind of think you're the only person ever to have kind of like dealt with it and you and then you and then you listen to somebody else although different situation having to deal with the questions you ask why me what why is this happening yeah you know how do i bounce back from this and and you know what am i doing with and and you put such a powerful voice to that and and you you just make it very real in a way and you tell it you tell it beautifully but you tell it in an honest way that i think isn't usual yeah uh there were quite a few questions about that you know i do remember my editor once um very early actually in my writing and she was just like you know you're not going to be a hero in this book and i was like like, oh, I didn't realize that's what I was writing.

7:39I was like, am I supposed to be the hero? I was like, I don't know what else to do. I'm just telling it as it is. You know, I'm telling you what I was thinking. I'm telling you what happened, even if it doesn't make me the rosy person because it's the truth. And that actually became really, really difficult in my writing because there were times when I would get stuck because I couldn't remember a particular detail. And for myself, not even so much for you or for anybody else who reads the book, I wanted to make sure that I would never come back to reading it and then be like, ah, her uniform wasn't purple.

8:13It was gray. That would drive me completely insane. You know, so it was like I needed to write the absolute truth, unencumbered, even of my own feelings, because I didn't at any point want to come back to it and feel the cringe of having told a different story than the actual truth. yeah that makes sense um i want to take us to one of the early parts of the book which is your encounter with spike lee which feels just like a bit it's a bit of a sliding doors moment isn't it where you just think your life could have gone in at that point gone in so many different directions and you had this chance meeting with with spike but what i love about it is that you took the opportunity didn't you yeah you know it was about naivety it was like but but but you were well equipped for that moment in a way yeah but you kind of talk us through the moment because i love the story here.

9:02It kind of might inspire a few people to take your shots. Well, the context is that I had just graduated from college, from undergrad at Wesleyan University. My parents are, you know, immigrants to the United States. And so I'm first gen. They've put all of the hopes and dreams, aspirations on me. I was supposed to go to medical school. I'd been pre-med throughout college, had taken the MCAT, you know, it was very well on my way. And I was good in the sciences and math, but in college, I would also take on the arts, you know, and I fell in love with all of these Black writers, you know, and really found myself in their stories and their struggle.

9:38I also really love Spike Lee because, of course, as an African-American filmmaker, he, talk about unapologetic, I mean, he just said whatever came to his head, and he'd put the hardest things on screen and would not come down to pop culture rights. You know, you would just be like, no, I'm up here. And so you come meet me where I am. And so it was a chance meeting when I was looking for a temp job, you know, in my break between undergrad and medical school. I was in New York City, didn't know a soul except one, you know, whose couch I was sleeping on. And I was just trying to find ways to make money.

10:18And so my temp agency sent me to Spike Lee's advertising agency because he had fired his assistant and they needed he needed somebody to answer the phones. And so I sat down in the chair, started answering phones. Hello, this is Spike DDB. How can I help you? You know, and he walked in with a manuscript under his hand or under his arm. And he's, you know, walking in and Spike is a man of few words. and so you know he gave me like a little head nod nodded back at him and he went into his office and when he was coming back out it was so naive because I don't think I would have done it today knowing what I know but at the time I just saw him coming back and being so curious about what was under his arm so I simply said like what is that he said oh it's the script for my new film called bamboozled and I was like oh can I read it who the hell says that I love this who says that And I think he was also surprised.

11:12You know, it's like that moment where I don't think if he had had a second more to think about it. And now he's like, what do I do? Do I say yes? Yeah, it's like, what do you do? It's very unusual because who says that? Yeah. And he was like, sure. And so he gave it to me. He just like literally took it from his under his arm and he handed it to me. And he was like, give it back to me in three days. I think it was like, it was at the end of the week. So I know I had the weekend to read it. And I went back to my very dingy little apartment in Jersey City. Jersey, across the bridge, in the tunnel from New York City.

11:43And I took a red pen to it, like an actual red pen, making markups. Why did I think I should do that? I have no idea why I thought I should do that. Like, why not just read it? And then if I felt like - A couple of suggestions, tweets here and there. Maybe like, oh, I'd love to talk to you about it over coffee. But no, I didn't say that. I just took the red pen, started marking it up, gave it back to him on Monday morning. First of all, he was shocked that I had it back to him on Monday. And then, so he took it, right? Not knowing that I'd marked it up. I was just like, oh, thank you so much. He walks into his office and then he like immediately like storms back out.

12:16And he's like, you took a red pen to my script? And literally it's like, there were only like five people in the office. It was this very small office and everybody was like, quiet. Like you could hear a pen. And I literally was sitting there like, oh no, what did I do wrong? It's like the way to the emperor with the judgment. I didn't even know what I did wrong, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then he was like, you took a red pen to my script? And then he, like, just slammed his office door. And I'm sitting there like, holy shit. Like, what do I do now? You know, like, I couldn't get fired. Like, I have nowhere else to go.

12:50I'm not making any money. Like, it took months to get this job. Everything is running through my head, and I'm sitting there. Like, I've got my purse on my lap. Still answering the phone, though, you know? And then he comes out of his office, like, 20 minutes later. and he's like, you made some good suggestions you should say. Dude. Wow. Changed my life. It was like, it changed my entire life because should I have been fired that day, I've talked about this a lot. I probably would have had to go back home to Colorado to my parents who would have absolutely bawled me out. I probably would have had to go to medical school.

13:27You and I definitely wouldn't be sitting here now. We wouldn't. You know, and I'd just be like, Like maybe some cool ass doctor in like Minnesota. Isn't it amazing that these life changing things happen by a simple decision to be brave and just take a chance? Yeah. Yeah. How many people, 99 people would have gone, well, I couldn't possibly do that. Right. Yeah. But also it's like, you know, it is why like I love instinct so much. I depend on it. There's not a decision I make today that is not based on instinct. Like my first instinct is always it. I'm not going to overthink anything. I promise you I won't.

14:01Like it could be any, it could be like the biggest decision. And I'm like, what did I feel first? And also even in my marketing teams, I, that is the way I lead. Anybody who's ever worked with me will tell you that. That like, if you bring a piece of work and we watch it or you present it and I'm like, what did you feel? And you start with some long thought out explanation. I'm like, nope, next. You know, because it's like that, that for whatever that first thing is should be what tells you, you know? And so for me, it's like that first instinct to say, I want to read it. There's a lot of science there, isn't there?

14:35Because our emotions can respond far quicker than our thoughts can. And the thought tends to post-rationalize why we do something. But you need to capture that. It's like whenever I'm buying some advertising and they pitch the idea, I have to write down exactly what I feel the first time because you get two hours of explanation afterwards. And by then you change your mind completely. Totally. You are no longer the audience, are you? No, you couldn't be more right. I mean, that's exactly it. And so it's like, yeah, does that piece of work make you excited? Yeah. Does it make you curious? Yeah. Scare you?

15:12Bore you? Do you need explanation afterwards? Yeah. Well, that's it. Yeah. How many campaigns are way too clever? Oh, my God. If somebody has to explain it to you, then forget it. Put it aside. No, you need to start again. It's like when you do that research behind the closed doors and you spend two hours with people testing an idea. And I'm like, look, the person walking down the street that's got two seconds to look at your billboards has not got a crowd of people around going, now let me talk you through the strategy here. What are we trying to get? Are these reasons to believe? The context is this.

15:41We're moving you through the journey. Right, right, right. Exactly. That never happens. It doesn't happen in real life, does it? No, it doesn't. So that instinct of that moment with spite changed my life, like in a very practical way, but also just the way I am in the world. you know working off of that gut has absolutely changed the way that i move in the world and i think it's just made the world better for me yeah it has isn't it yeah and and you know in terms of decision making as well because in the book you talk a lot about the points you're making decisions and and trusting your guts as well yes and and maybe let's talk about some of the kind of roles you've had as well because like it's almost like a who's who like the most successful businesses in the world but i mean you know you've worked at apple you've worked at netflix you've worked at uber you've worked at pepsi of course early in your career um what have been the standout moments from working for some of the biggest i mean it's just the sort of companies that people you know wait their whole careers to try and work for what what have you seen in those because what stands out for you because that is it's a privileged position isn't it to see yeah across all those businesses yeah um i think maybe aside from pepsi i've worked almost entirely for founder led companies yeah right even apple right because i worked with eddie q yeah who was at the very beginning with steve jobs um and so it's been a lot of founders that's tough isn't it that's really, really tough.

17:13But I think, now that I think about it, gosh, this is like really off the top of my head, you know? Like, I haven't thought about this in particular before. But I think what I really love about those environments is that those are born from instinct and emotion. It's not logic. Because at some point, one of them said, oh, you know what? I want to do this. And I bet a lot of people were like, no, I don't do it. Oh my God, it's going to fail, And then for whatever reason, they were like, oh, no, I'm going to go for it. And then, whew, success, success, success, success, you know? And I, even though I have not been a founder, I feel very emotional in my work.

17:55You know, I'm not the person who's going to over-explain or use too much, quote-unquote, logic or math in getting to the answer. and so in that way i feel very passionate about the business or the work i'm in you know and so yes i can look back of course in my career and be like oh my god like all these companies but i think it is what has attracted also founders to me you know because um also honestly i i haven't ever gone to apply for these jobs they came they came and found me and so perhaps that's that's part of the answer yeah you know there's an amazing book actually reminded me that i think it's called the founder's mentality i think it's called the founder's mentality but they talk about the um fact that in founder their business you're so much closer to the customer you've got like a passion that you know you know and you're also more obsessed about the execution yes what you're doing you know become you know whereas in big corporate companies like pepsi and others yeah there's a way of doing things isn't there there's a 10-step process or there's a you know review where you do reviews and things, it's all kind of laid out.

19:00Whereas in family companies, it's much more about passion, being close to your customer, having ideas and executing them brilliantly. And they care. You know, I mean, look, I went to work at Uber because I had what was supposed to be a one hour lunch with Travis Kalanick, who was the founder. And it turned into eight hours of us like arguing and challenging. And me being like, well, screw off then. Like, you do it your way. I'm out of here. You know, because I was like, I don't care. I'm at Apple. Like, I don't need to be here, you know? And that idea of the care, concern, real emotion, no logic, is what I believe creates the success of these companies.

19:48You know, like somebody who really is just like, by any means necessary, I'm going to make this work yeah and you need people who believe that even if it's not their own baby to make that also work and that's why i think i've had the career that does make sense now think about it because as a founder eight hours being challenged right it's probably going to be like this is brilliant right she cares i'm going to learn something whereas in a big corporate organization they'll be like oh my god please don't hide right she's not going to fix it or you're going to use like you're going to disrupt yeah yeah you know what i mean like some like you know but i'm over here like are you stupid yeah like how how could you even do that and why would you do that no you should do this because this is gonna do you know and i'm just like i'm over here in a tussle with you you know it's like this is not going to be clean yeah yeah totally um you've led some big teams you know is managing some big brands what's the secret to leadership because i know i was listening to you talk about kind of you know talent versus leadership and it's you can be very good at something.

20:49It's not the same thing as being, as leading others. They're very different things. And I often joke that the CMO is rarely like the best marketer and the best marketer is rarely the CMO, you know, because there are certain skills you need, don't you, to lead that don't exist. Oh, that is a really hard question. Because it's something I wrestle with a lot because, you know, I can often know the answer, but helping lead others can be quite a challenge, can't it? You know, I think if I think back on it, the thing that I love most is actually what has helped me lead teams is that I actually really love the work.

21:23You know, like I get so excited about the work. So I can I can call up a dozen black people who've worked for me who have been like extra charged up in the meeting they had with me to present. you know versus going into the meeting and having to defend and then coming out dejected you know it's like if i make you feel dejected it's because the idea wasn't good yeah and look i'm gonna be straight up about it gonna be like this is this is a load of shit you know that like i don't even know why you brought that in here you know and so at least you know you're getting the truth you know i'm not gonna like slice it back but what if you just made that green yeah you know i'm just like this is terrible get this out of here you know what i mean And because I love the work, I'm not here for the administrative thing.

22:13You know, again, it's like, it just comes back to even my relationship with the CEO, right? Because that's what you do as a CMO, right? You're here to shepherd the idea, present it to somebody else, and then go. You know, most of the time is what you're doing, or to the board or whomever else, right? Because you're going to make the call, and then somebody's going to challenge it, and somebody's going to say, blah, blah, blah. But so what you're doing with your team is to try to narrow it down so it's the most defendable thing. I am not interested in defending the art. I'm not. It's great or it's not.

22:46And either you see it or you don't. And I don't care if you don't see it because I see it. And, you know, to the point that you said, like, you know, most of the time the best marketer is not the CMO. I'm like, I do think I'm the best marketer. And so it's like, yeah, when you come to me, you better be damn good, you know, because I'm great. And so the thing is that, like, I'm in the work. Like, I want to understand how we got to this idea. I want to know who we're talking to, if it makes me laugh, if it makes me inspired. And if it doesn't do any of those things, eh, you know? And so I think leadership, for me anyway, has been about getting into the work.

23:25And I know that sometimes, you know, people say that, like, oh, then, you know, you become, like, a micromanager or you're too far into it. in the weeds and you need to let other people and delegate and all that i'm not trying to like make the work myself i think there's a difference i'm trying to recognize good work yeah so i'm the one who's like that one is it and ding that one is it you know it's like no your your job is to make it now i'm gonna come tell you whether or not that's a good idea because maybe you're too close I totally agree. Now, how, because I'm with you, how do you then take that to, let's say, a CFO or a CEO?

24:03Right. Because, you know, we talked about feelings, emotion, instinct, right? Yes. Now, my experience as CEOs and CFOs, they're not always, they're not always in our camp, are they? Never in our camp. What are we talking about? Have we ever met one, right? No, never met one. No, you're right. You know, gosh, this is going to be hard to say, but I'm going to say it, which is that I have not made a lot of friends with CFOs and CEOs because of that reason. Yeah. You know, but I think it's important to set that out from the beginning. And this is why I also think it's important that, and look, I'm in a very privileged place when I say this, but it's like, I haven't gone looking for the job.

24:41So if you came to me, then you know exactly what you're getting. And so if you're a CEO, founder, more than likely. Anyone listening? Exactly. Who's coming to my doorstep to say, Bose, we need you to come and do this. Then you better give me the room. And the moment you stop giving me the room, we have a problem. Actually, you have a problem. I don't have a problem. You have a problem. But that's what it's been like for me, which is just like, look, I'm the one who's here to crown the idea, the one that's going to take us forward. And look, they won't always win. I can admit that. So there have been many CFOs who have been like, told you, you spent way too much money on this, and it tanked.

25:22And I'm like, yeah, I know, I know. Let me get another go. And it's been tough. I'm not saying that it's an easy thing. I'm not saying that it's like always the most comfortable. But again, even back to your question about leadership, but that's what we're meant to do. You know, as a leader, you're supposed to take the hits. And so it's like, look, if the idea wasn't good that I said was good and it fails or bombs or wasted money, it's like I should take the hit, not the team. And that is, I think, what separates great leaders. You know, oftentimes you want to move aside and be like, it was him!

25:54Yeah, yeah. Well, that's also the difference between, isn't it, corporate life and founder life, right? because it's like Game of Thrones in corporate life, isn't it? How fast can I throw someone else under the bus? I remember the day before I got fired, I was doing a courtly presentation to the board and the sales director whispered in my ear, he said, John, this is Game of Thrones and you've just thrown yourself behind the wrong house. He whispered to me quietly. And I was like, shit. Oh my God. I didn't even know this was the game. I didn't even know. No one told me. I didn't know where the houses were.

26:30I didn't get a brief. But it's like there's a game. There's what everyone says. And then there's this other game that gets played about who's going to align with who and who's going to create alliances with who. In founder companies, it's not like that. It's like, is it good? Is it going to work? Yeah. Did it hit? Yeah. But this is the hardest part is that it's nonlinear, right? Yes. And so that is also, you know, a lot of conversations, relationships are also based on this understanding, right? And this is why I'm just like, oh my God, it is never in the moment where you're trying to figure out whether something worked or didn't work.

27:04It's the understanding that like, hey, look, I'm going to win some. I'm going to lose some. Some of it is going to happen immediately. Some of it is going to happen in the long run. You've got to give me the room. And if you don't trust me, then I shouldn't be here. Yeah, I totally agree. You know, and understanding that and that therefore when you start to ask me and I'm talking because I'm talking to CEO right now, you start to ask me these questions about the decisions I made. Now, we do have a problem. We do because it's like, no, I'm here to do this work for the long run to get you long term results.