Should’ve gone to Specsavers, how a simple brand idea created a winning vision for the company - Peter Wright & Nicola Wardell

0:06Welcome back everybody to Uncensored CMO. Now one of my very favourite campaigns of all time It should have gone to Specsavers. Talk about an idea that has transformed a business. So I wanted to talk to the CMO, Peter Wright, and the MD of their in-house creative, Nicola Wardell, about how they did it. There are so many campaigns that have cut through and made a real difference to the business. I want to understand how they do it, how successful it's been, and what we can learn from those campaigns. But also, if you want to watch the ads and not just hear us talk about them, then go to my YouTube channel, at Uncensored CMO, and check it out for yourself.

0:38Without further ado, let's get into it. So, Peter and Nicola, welcome to Uncensored CMO. Thank you for having us. Thank you, John. And this must feel a lovely break in between LA and San Francisco and Sydney and Melbourne. So, you're very welcome here. Thank you. I was going to do a tour t-shirt, you know, go LA, San Francisco, St Peter's Port, and then Melbourne, Sydney. Precisely. Exactly. But it's lovely to be here. I guess I must start with the question. How did the two of you end up on a small island doing the jobs you do? I mean, maybe, Peter, start with you, because I know you've done some big corporate jobs in the past.

1:09what what got you here what got me yes it's a very good question isn't it no i think um i was just like most people whenever you're looking for a new job you're kind of looking for well what are the things that are important to you and for me you know spec save's got strong brands so that as a marketer would always attract you it's in a meaningful business and i think i don't know you get on a bit in life and you want to make sure that what you're doing is adding some value um and um for me the other important thing about anywhere i went to was the culture and i really wanted to go into a place with a really strong culture, supportive culture that was then prepared to allow you to do what you needed to do.

1:43So a series of those things all fell into place. And then you chat to your wife and she's like, you up for Guernsey? And it happens that my wife's from the Isle of Man, so she's used to sort of island life. Yeah, fantastic. And I can confirm it's a beautiful island and the food is amazing as well. So you're not sure of places to go and eat. There's a lot to love. There is, isn't there? So Nicola, tell me, you've been working in agencies, holding companies, like London, of course. So I was in London agencies for 25 years and was looking for an opportunity. I think the part of my job I'd always loved was the connection with clients.

2:22And I was of the firm belief that you get better work, the better the relationship with the clients. So in-housing always fascinated me, but there weren't many examples of in-housing that were doing amazing work. So when this job description landed in my inbox, I was really excited and then saw a tiny print based in Guernsey and thought, why not? Let's go and have an adventure. So we did. And we're here and loving it. Yeah, well, we're going to come on and talk about in-housing because, of course, you know, I mean, you should have gone to Specsavers. The campaigns you've done, you know, are some of the most iconic, successful, talked about campaigns on the planet and all come from here, right?

2:58All born and raised in Guernsey. Absolutely. All made on the island. Which is impressive. Yeah. So maybe for people listening and watching, let's start with the story of how Specsavers came into being, because it's 40 years old, I believe, on Valentine's Day. So tell me about how the business came around. This is Doug and Mary's story. So Doug and Mary, the founders of the business, they met as optometrists in Cardiff University. They started their own business together in Bristol. Actually, they built it up, and I think they had about 20-ish stores, and then sold it. and then they moved to the island where Mary's mother was living, sort of like basically decide what are we going to do with the rest of our lives, you know, what does it look like?

3:36And I think they tried a few different things and it was during the early 80s when the sort of the Thatcher government deregulated a lot of professional services which allowed for advertising and Doug saw the immediate possibility with that and started off the business. So on Mary's birthday, which is February 14th, 40 years ago, they opened their first store on the island. And then it kind of grew from that. And I don't think they ever thought it was going to be the size it is today. They thought it might get to 20, 30, maybe up to 100 stores. And we're going to open our 1 ,000th store in the UK later on this year.

4:13We've got 2 ,500 around the world. We're in 11, 12 countries. You know, it's like, I don't think they'd ever imagined it would grow to that size. But that's their story. And as a business, I think you employ almost the equivalent of the population of Guernsey. Well, we're the biggest private employer on the island. Yeah, it's a good percentage. So, yes, it is a large, but I mean, there's a lot of people based in the UK and obviously in other parts around the world. Yeah, it's amazing. So if you can decode, what is it about the brands, the business, about Mary and Doug that has made it such a success today?

4:45What are the secrets, would you say? I think, yeah. I always talk about the democratic nature of the business. So democracy is what drove them. So those guys had a purpose way before anyone was talking about purpose. You know, it wasn't a thing, was it, 40 years ago? But they were really single-minded that they wanted everyone to be able to afford good quality eye care. And they've stuck to that vision for 40 years, and I think that makes a huge difference. So if you go into our stores, there's a pair of glasses there for£19 if that's all you have. but also there's more stylish ranges there's lots of things for everyone in our stores and they're really passionate about that and i think to be being really single-minded about what this business is about has made the huge difference and the nice thing it kind of this then pervades the culture because when you've got a purpose so changing lives through through better sight and hearing you're kind of going everyone knows that's why you're here you come to work because you're making a difference sometimes you are helping save someone from a brain tumor you've discovered behind the eyeball other times it's just finding the right solution to allow them to see and enjoy life if you ever talk to the guys who work in audiology and if you ever know anyone who's partially deaf i mean it takes them years before they admit to the fact that they they're going deaf but as soon as they get that correction they can rejoin their families they they interact again they sort of it's such a it makes such a difference to their lives and that's really nice because we know that's what we're doing and everyone who works is aware of that it's like There's something bigger than us.

6:15We all know why we come to work. It's not necessarily about making amazing adverts. That's brilliant that we do. But actually, it's the difference we're making to people's lives. And that sounds very sort of modern age purpose, but it's not. It's just what the business is about. Makes a lot of sense. I mean, go back to the 80s, like when we were all at school, and it was like either it was like NHS classes, which was a stigma, right? I mean, you know, all the kids got picked on when they had the glasses. All classes were something out of reach, hundreds of pounds, and it was something very sort of, you know, very high end.

6:45I mean, if you think about it at the time, it was quite a sort of visionary sort of thought that they had. I don't think they realised they were being visionary. It just seemed like the sensible thing to do. It was just who they were. And, you know, they both come from humble backgrounds. I mean, you've met Mary today. I mean, she's lovely. And this is just who they are. The thing that struck me, it's so down to earth, isn't she? You know, so down. And the fact that she was chatting about a conversation at a bus stop, about glasses, and the fact that she was giggling about, Well, that's consumer research there.

7:13You know, I was getting an honest, unvarnished, you know, response to our latest sort of latest thing. And she does keep saying that a lot, actually. Some of the guys who work in Insights get a bit frustrated. There is a bit more to it than that. But she's right. And I think any marketeer should always spend some time talking to their customers. I mean, there's no substitute for it. You know, it's not a representative sample, but it's real. It's somebody's story. I think everybody should do that every once in a while. I mean, I go out and I now do it around the world, just spending a little bit of time talking to our colleagues in the stores, the partners who run the stores.

7:47If I get the chance to talk to customers as well, I'll do so. I'm a bit limited in Northern Europe because of my language skills, but elsewhere you do. I worked for a Japanese company for a while, actually, and they had this lovely phrase called the Gemba, which basically meant where the action happens. So either the shop floor, the factory, the customers that are buying. And they always had this sort of mantra about being in the Gemba because that's where you learn. And if you're in the Gemba, then decisions will become very easy because they become very obvious. And in a big organisation, we build these layers, don't we, in departments and reports and research.

8:18And it kind of separates us, doesn't it? So I love the fact that she's still out there, still getting feedback on what you're doing. And it's quite genuine. It's a bit embarrassing when you go travelling with her because she will stop and talk to literally anybody. But does it completely incognito? Yeah. Yeah. So you'll be in the back of the cab with her and she'll be talking to the cabbie about, oh, yeah, is there an optician around here? just to get the response and then start the conversation. I love that. But that constant curiosity is so important, isn't it? Yeah, it really is, isn't it? Constantly asking questions.

8:47I guess as marketers, that's our first job, isn't it? To be asking questions, to be representing the consumer, to be understanding them and to be, you know, representing them in decision making. It's the most important thing we can do is to understand what's going on in their lives. And of course, you've got different techniques and different ways of which we can do that. But fundamentally, that's our starting point. Now, you've worked for different organisations, and this is a family-owned business it's been it's been that for obviously for a long time what's the difference that working in a family-owned organization makes compared to say a corporate organization or a big kind of network organization i think it's been in it for the long game so i mentioned this earlier it's it's having a bigger why so we all know there's something bigger than us and bigger than the department we work in bigger than what we do on a day-to-day but not having to report quarterly annually i mean obviously we report but we're reporting to mary and doug and to a family um that are in it for the long game and it makes such a difference to how we approach what we do that's so liberating isn't it it's it's when you've worked in a big corporate and i've been on boards of plcs and everything and and you you find the questions you get asked just feel like they're the wrong questions you're trying to drive the business forward it doesn't happen overnight many of the decisions particularly in marketing are long term so you've got to allow that and we're lucky enough i've worked for a few private companies now where when the owners are involved they know that's what they're they're doing yeah yeah i mean going back to my japanese example actually they'd often talk about a 25-year plan yeah which is yeah yeah you know because in most plcs it's like how do we survive the quarter to get you know increase earnings per share reduce cost improved margin in a very short term take 25 year view what would you do differently?

10:26Yeah, it suddenly opens up and then you know the right answer quickly. It's not hard to do. It's when you're asked to do something in the short term, you go, well, what are the compromises in order to do it in the short term? And you generally end up regretting it. Now, we must come and talk about should have gone to Specsavers because I think if you were to ask anybody about a famous kind of strap line or a proposition from a brand that has built a business, it feels like that has really been fundamental in building a business. So tell us the origin story where did that come from and was it always destined to be or how did that come to life so i mean obviously this is way before my time so i'm four years in uh 22 years ago almost it started as a line in an ad so it wasn't born as an idea as we would know it today um it was a line in an ad that obviously stuck um and it took a few iterations of work in order to realise its potential as an idea.

11:24What's brilliant about my team is the longevity. So I've got guys here who were involved in those early iterations. And they always say it was a real gradual journey to get to, I think, sheepdog collie. That's the first execution that really catapulted it into being, wow, this is going to have cultural impact. This is a strong idea. It's amazing. It's amazing it's gone for so long as well. I mean, you'd be tempted to imagine at some point some marketing directors turned up and reviewed it, right? So has it ever been challenged in that time? Have you ever thought about it? Of course it's going to happen, isn't it?

12:00I mean, that's the first thing I did when I came in. And you do that anyway. So I'm nearly three years in. Anyone's going to look at something of that nature and say, right, does that still work? Is it still relevant? And you do sit down and question it. There were some questions in the business when we were, so for example, during COVID, when you couldn't come. So you weren't allowed out of your house. So it doesn't really have relevance anymore. It wasn't running around all of our countries. So they'd all convinced themselves that they needed to do different things, etc. So you get into that sort of piece.

12:30But naturally, you sit down, you look at it. Is this still relevant? Does it still work? How does it work? And with that in mind, and I sort of look at these things tend to be quite rational and just say, yeah, that seems to work. I think that's going to deliver the result for us. Actually, it's really, really powerful. It's like, why would you throw it away? But I think one of of the interesting things is i think this tends to happen a lot is you start constructing your own rules around how it works and then it becomes oh no now it doesn't quite work in this way or that way and i think the one thing probably when i did do that piece of work so i think you can liberate yourselves on that just open it up again and then suddenly that gives you a new lease of life and it's a powerful idea that can constantly be reinvented so you know it's like it's brilliant fun to work with what is interesting about your earlier point about always talking to customers we did talk to constant customers and non-customers about alternatives and the potential of you know if should have didn't exist and the response was just a unanimous never get rid of that it's amazing we knew that ourselves but obviously our customers telling us was a double whammy no and and see do it and then we checked around the world as well and you kind of it's just as relevant it's so powerful so why why wouldn't you so then the next bit became to those countries not running it um maybe you want to rethink that one and and so it sort of develops from that really it's it's one of those rare moments as well where it becomes part of the vernacular as well that the people use it in conversation even even out of context which is amazing isn't it so when you hear it so i was on a bus in london the other week and there were two teenage boys talking about you know an inappropriate conversation, but talking about someone else's girlfriend.

14:08And literally, these are teenagers, you know. Oh, you should have gone to Smack Savings. I felt like tapping them on the shoulder, but thought, no, don't do it. Don't do it, Nick. Stop it. Well, I was looking up just for fun, right? See, what are the oldest, longest running straplines that there are? Now, this isn't an official list. Again, this is just what the internet could tell me. So I'm sure I'll get listeners calling in and go, John, you've missed our one, right? So I'm just preparing myself for that. Disclaimers. Disclaimers. It's the top five longest running consistent strap lines. And the consistent piece.

14:39It's consistent. Not just it was used once and has been re-brought back. Exactly, yeah, because there's been resurrected strap lines. And one of them I'll contest a little bit. But anyway, number five that I could find, fifth longest running, 1975 BMW, the ultimate driving machine. That doesn't – 1975, that's almost 50 years old. Now, that's quite surprising. I mean, it's been around, I think, as long as I've been sort of driving cars. But anyway, it goes back to the 70s. That's quite interesting. number four very popular one 1971 l 'oreal because you're worth it again that's that's a stare that's a stare isn't it yeah now classic number the number three is probably the one that if you said pick one you think it's been around a long time this is what i'd have guessed avis we try harder yeah that's 1962 i've still been going now number two surprised me because it's older than i thought and i'm not sure how consistent it's been but 1957 have a break have a kit kat i'm sure the guys at Nestle will correct you if that's not true.

15:34They will be quick to correct me. It was definitely, I definitely remember in the 80s. I felt like it went away and came back. But I would need to check. I kind of think so as well, but I'm sure someone's... It feels like it has been messed around with. Someone will write in and tell you, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. We'll get the full story. We'll get the full story. But number one, and again, as soon as I heard this, I went, of course, a diamond is forever. Yeah. But I wouldn't, I didn't know which brand to attribute that to. So it's interesting. So it's hit the vernacular, but I don't know how well branded.

16:03Do you think De Beers? That's a good question. Association. I don't. Well, this is where this is also the ultimate driving machine, actually, because you could misattribute that to someone else. But we should have gone Speck Savers. It's impossible. Absolutely. Not to confuse it with anything else. But I think it's a good trick. I want to talk about the serious case of humour. Now, again, I don't know whether I've got this quite right. I jumped on the system on database before preparing this just to see your top scoring campaigns of all time. Number one with 5.5 star, which puts it right in the top echelons of anything we've ever tested, was the Tower Block ad.

16:37Just for people listening and watching, just describe this ad. It's a very simple ad, but it's very funny. But just describe the ad for people. So we've got a charming and likeable delivery guy gets his big heavy package out of his van and gets to the bottom of the tower block. And wouldn't you know, the lift's broken. So up he starts walking, a little bit of interaction on the stairwell that just makes you chuckle. Gets to the door, knocks on the door, delivery for your love. This says block two. It's over there, mate. And she points over there and he's in the wrong tower block. Absolutely brilliant.

17:12Was that an all right? That was good. I was feeling it. I was with you. You should work in advertising. But what I love, now I'd need to go and check on the system on day speed just to check on this. But when I looked at the report on that, over 50 % of the emotion recorded on that was humour. It was amusement, which is how we capture it. And there are 15 different types of happiness that we measure in the report. And in key associations where we ask people, spontaneously tell us what you associate with the ad. half of it was funny, half of it was opticians and spec savers, right? So you made people laugh and you remember them.

17:50And they remembered us. You made sure they knew who you were, which is pretty cool. But humour seems to have kind of gone off the agenda a little bit, doesn't it? Well, to the point where there's a special category it can for it now. I know, I know. But it's really powerful, right? So if you're going to interrupt somebody's viewing with a commercial message, which I think you have a job to do to reward them in some way, to entertain them in some way. Humour does that really, really well. It does. I mean, what the data also suggests as well is that we measure the strength of emotion as well in this, and it got very, very, very high.

18:25So not only were people feeling happy, that was the overriding emotion when you drill into the happiness, it's amusement, but also when we asked them to rate it on a scale, it came very high as well. And what's lovely about it is fluency, of course, and 99 % of people that, after watching the ad, said it was a Specsavers ad. So you kind of put the two things together, which is amazing. And we've run that ad in other countries as well without changing the language. Without changing the language? Without changing the language. We did it with subtitles. In Norway. In Norway, yeah. And it scored, I think it was voted, the best international ad of all time, or since 2006 when they recorded these things.

19:06And it worked just as well. Well, there you go. I mean, everyone can relate to climbing up a tower block for delivery. Even though it was a different looking tower block and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, it was very London looking. It's interesting because we made that ad. It's the first should have ad we made coming out of COVID. And we had a conversation around what world do we want to be in? And we wanted a nod to the frontline heroes, actually, of the COVID world. But we were never going to make an ad about COVID. But just nodding to everyone's reality. And it felt really real. I love one of the stories about that ad as well there's a group of teenage girls stood on the stairwells and one of the teenage girls in that scene lives in that tower block and she came up to us the day before and was like what are you doing?

19:48We're making an ad can I be in it? We were like yeah democratic spec savers why not join us and the reason she's wearing a towel by the way in that final scene is because she fell over the day before and cut her head but there's something about the authenticity about opening the door with a towel on her head that sort of works Yeah. You'd never have... You know what it's like? You can't look at the ads without remembering the slight traumas. I love the casting. Just like, yeah, who's available tomorrow? Yeah. Who wants to be an ad? Yeah. That's brilliant, isn't it? Absolutely wonderful. Number two, actually, on the day space was Vette.

20:22So just... Tell us about Vette. So we have a scene in a vet. There's a cat being looked at by the vet. there's a bit of nervousness because the vet can't find the pulse to this cat so you can see him the drama's building in the ad you can see him getting more and more nervous about the fact that there's no pulse so he sort of pulls the emergency red cord and goes quick we need the whatever the cpr team is for the cat and the veterinary nurse just walks in and takes the cat off the table and we realize it's not a cat it's her furry hat should have gone specks over again really simple. Very simple, isn't it?

20:59Yeah. With a beautiful twist at the end. And you can see that in the response. You see the suspense, then you see the peak in emotion at the end. And of course, peak end rule, as we often talk about system one, is leave people feeling great at the end. That's brilliant. Good use of humour. Now also, what I think is so wonderful as well about the idea is because it can live way beyond. You don't need a 30 second TV spot, do you? So what have been some of the most successful other channels where the idea is turned up in? We do really well on out of home because it's just a simple idea and great out of home needs to be really simple.

21:32So the ladder executions where we ostensibly painted over the ladder, I think they scored really well on system one. Yeah, so 3.9 star, which for out of home is very good. I think out of home average is about 2, 2.1 star. So it's a bit harder with out of home because to create emotions is a bit more tricky because you've got less to work with. What I love about what you've done, though, is you've got this big idea, people get it, and all the emotion you've created around the idea through TV, for example, gets translated into that out of home. So to get an almost a four star is pretty amazing. Yeah, it's very good.

22:06We've just bought the huge out of home space in Waterloo. so that's live it certainly was last week I don't know if it still is but you can go and have a look where we literally we are counting the amount of people that are mistaking this for a departures board so literally it just goes 396 people mistaking this for a departures board should have gone is that the huge one so imagine rush hour when the trains are cancelled which is every second day around any between platforms 1 and 12 literally there's your audience for that so we just have fun with it it's the gift that keeps on giving but the other nice thing it does allow others to have fun as well so um our colleagues down in australia they actually made it a competition for young budding um film writers and so on and so they've just made a a small should have ad i mean the formula is quite straightforward and in a way it's quite hard to actually execute and you can have fun like this people will write in with their scripts people will video their friends doing it just lives in that way have you have you ever made an ad that someone sent in and said i've got an idea has that ever happened because it feels like it feels like that could be we've had competition so we have you know so we followed through on it but i think one of the things we've found is actually it's harder than you think and so the only teams who've successfully written should have ads have been the ones based here which is interesting as well so there's something about understanding the nature of the business really getting it it's so it's not just comedy but there's something it's how it connects to us as a business don't know why quite it should be the case but there's been none that have been written other than by teams based on the island what about within social media does that because you know how because obviously you've got your own team in-house as well so you can react to things around you so what have been some of the examples of how social media have embraced the idea i mean sports a great platform for social media isn't everything we do around referees and footballs and the minute there's a mistake on a pitch you know we should have gone to spec so it was about it it's the gift that keeps on giving Am I right in saying, because someone commented on LinkedIn to say that you sponsor referees.

24:11So it was something we did a few years ago, which I thought was, you know, at the time, just brilliant. Because it shows the idea just spreads. I think we still do for the Scottish referees. So it sort of just continues in the background there. But it's like there's so many different ways in which you can execute a creative idea. It doesn't have to be through a 30-second TV slot. Yeah. Now, I'd love to talk about how you go about it. because obviously one of the things that makes you different is you do all your creative in-house, don't you? Yeah. It all happens here in Guernsey. Yeah, it's amazing.

24:41So talk to me about why that is. Why is it that Specsavers decided to in-house the kind of creative department, which most companies of this size would probably bring an agency in? I don't think there was ever a strategy that said, let's be trailblazers in in-housing. I don't think they even realised that's what they were doing. Yeah. I think back in the days, it was like, oh, we need to produce a leaflet. let's hire somebody who can make leaflets for us. And then it kind of grew from that. So there's no real logic behind it. It just became. Weirdly, I get that because I've worked in big companies and small.

25:13In big companies, it's just normally outsourcing. So in small companies, you don't have those budgets or that complexity. You go, I need a graphic designer. Let's hire a graphic designer. I remember I did private equity for a few years in a little juice business. And I was the Twitter handle. I did design the logo above the door. I did the uniforms for the people, the team on the factory. It just builds. Entrepreneurial businesses. You almost don't even think. It's just like, you know. And you get to a certain point and you realise, oh, this is what we've got. Yeah. And it kind of works. And then I think you get to that point and you realise there's a huge benefit in the brand being owned and creatively and strategically developed from people who live and breathe it daily.

25:51And I think that's what we see as a business. now you came from london like epicenter of the world in terms of creativity you know big global holding company sort of thing and you're now on an island you know with a team in a population of 60 000 how would you get the talent i mean i was kind of trying to figure out how on earth you kind of hire the talent do you bring them in or are they locally grown or both actually there's i think there's three buckets to our talent so locally grown is really important to us so we've got some incredible success stories of people who've joined straight from school here not even uni straight from school into the door and literally learned on the job and there's some there's some brilliant work being written by those guys so that's really important to us we're doing some work with the school of communication arts to make sure that we're getting that good pipeline from the local schools and colleges um which you've been working on yeah so we've um basically worked with every school on the island we've got all their a-level students or at least we've made the offer to their A-level students.

26:53They're coming here for boot camps, for workshops and it'll help them with their A-level studies. It also helps us because we're improving the skill base from which we can recruit in a couple of years' time. And it's kind of like, you know, we've got about 80 at the moment and 20 will go through to summer school and a couple of those hopefully will come in and do apprenticeships with us. And again, yes, because you have to think creatively. If you were a small town in the middle of the UK somewhere, you might just be able to get people to sort of commute in or drive to you. We don't have that flexibility.

27:29So you've got to be thinking differently about it, which then ends up, I mean, I find myself in meeting with government officials, heads of schools, all this sort of stuff. It's just like, that's not my job description, but it's part of the job of, well, how do I ensure there's a pipeline of talent coming in and through the business? And then we nurture them and grow them. And some of them have done amazing things. and then invariably some of them then want to say can i get experiences elsewhere which is absolutely and then they'll come back afterwards it's back to that long game isn't it thinking about your talent and the way we think about the business it is important for us though to go out and find expertise that have got experience from other agencies and other models of working and that's when we turn into the guernsey tourist board isn't it peter um but we've we've made some brilliant hires from top agencies and i think that the thing they've all got in common if I think about the casting is there's a I love what I do I love advertising I might be a little bit over traditional Adeland I'd like to experience something different but I love the craft of what I do but casting for that is interesting because you've met Mary and Mary doesn't have an ego she's very down to earth so there's no room for anyone else to have egos and not be down to earth in this business so we we go after the right sort of people from Adeland and we bring them over and we've got some brilliant examples of like guys that are yeah it shows the importance of culture yeah because that you know you recruit the people if you aren't the right sort of person you don't you don't survive in the culture it doesn't work for you you end up going back or something you do something else but if you select people and choose them based on that culture they will thrive and develop do some really amazing work nearly all of them just love that i wouldn't say freedom but it's like i suddenly don't have all that sort of rubbish that used to go on and I realised now it was rubbish.

29:16I can now just focus on doing really good work, doing work that lasts long term with a client, if you want to call it that, who's prepared to invest in this stuff. Now one of the interesting things about in-housing of course is you're both the client and the agency in effect, aren't you? So you're within the business sort of thing. So how has that changed you particularly in terms of that? Because I guess you've come from agencies where you're pitching ideas all the time, you're selling ideas in. Well, now you're in the business, aren't you, as effectively the client and the agency. So how does that dynamic work?