The price of leadership: the sacrifices every CMO has to make

0:00Kory:Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Uncensored Renegades. This is the 20-minute podcast where Kory, Marchesoto and myself tackle one big question every week. I hope you enjoy this. Now, if you are enjoying it, I've got one request to make. We're putting this out on the current Uncensored feed for a limited time only. So if you're enjoying it, go over to Uncensored Renegades, hit subscribe and never miss an episode. Anyway, without further ado, let's get into it. it's okay boss we're back and this time what's up yeah i forgot that that's our new intro i don't

0:34Jon:know why we made that a thing but we did so here it is it works right i think it's iconic we want

0:38Kory:to keep it up you know now one of the one of the questions i often get asked is what does it take to be a cmo or what does it take to be successful because obviously in the with the podcast i get to meet loads of super successful people and i just wonder i don't know whether people really because obviously we see a shiny veneer don't we we kind of what we see in public is the results and the awards and the successes that sort of thing but i thought it'd be fun to have a conversation about actually what does it take and how many sacrifices are required to get the kind of success and obviously you've had some amazing success at elf what are the some of the things that people might not realize about doing the job you do well it's funny because i think we've

1:17Jon:somehow created a world where people think everything is one-sided meaning it has to be great and it can only be great versus it can be spectacular and it can be filled with sacrifice and both can be true. So I think our jobs are a position of privilege because we get to go to incredible places all around the world, meet exceptional people, smell new smells, touch new feelings, taste new flavors, and have these incredible conversations with brilliant minds. And at the same time, you're doing a lot of that away from home. So the sacrifices that you make are sleeping on airplanes and rolling off an airplane at eight o 'clock in the morning, taking a shower and going straight to work.

2:05Jon:How many times do you wake up and wonder, where am I? What time is it? What city am I in? And there is a tax on the body. So there's a physical tax on high levels of travel. And then there's a mental tax on being away from friends and family and home. And funny story, this was in Cannes, actually. Obviously, lots of CMOs come together for the CanLion Festival. You and I were actually there together and we recorded a podcast two years in a row, if I remember correctly, from the CanLion Festival. And we were sitting around the table and somebody said, everybody take out your phone and pull up the points system for hotels where you have the most concentrated number of points.

2:56Jon:And this is actually a lesson for our audience because I highly recommend that you pick a particular hotel group and stick to it so you can actually get a benefit from your work travel. So we all pulled up the phones and pulled up the page called account where it shows how many nights you've slept in a hotel. I looked at my number and I gasped. And this was in June. We are now in September. What is my number?

3:25Kory:64 nights this year.

3:27Jon:This year. So this is 64 nights that I've slept in a Marriott property. So this is only Marriott. I concentrate my points on Marriott and IHG. So this one is definitely the most concentrated. And I looked at my phone and without context, just thinking in my own small universe, 64. And I'm like, that's two months I've spent in a hotel room. And then everybody put up their phone. and I had the lowest number. I had the lowest number. What? So if that gives you a sense, and they were all CMOs. So if that gives you a sense of what it takes to be a CMO, it is a lot of personal sacrifice. Now, again, it also comes with great gain.

4:15Jon:We're enriching our worlds. We're expanding the limits of our own perception and perspectives. And so it, I never want to complain about it like it's a bad thing. It's a reality of the world we're living in. And it comes with things like a constant fight with my husband.

4:37Kory:How do you resolve that kind of thing? How do you get the balance right between like your home life and your professional life? Because there's clearly quite a big trade-off to make. So how do you decide is it worth it or not? At what point would you reconsider?

4:51Jon:Yeah, it's a tough one. I think it always starts with you. So the first thing I had to do was be at peace with it myself. I have to be at peace with the fact that I'm a road warrior and accept that as the incredible position of privilege that it is and all of the great benefits that come with it and also the sacrifices. The work I'm doing is to try to get my husband to also be at peace with that. And I think that comes with time. And it also comes with recognizing what are the non-negotiables. So one thing I'm terrible at is calling him when I'm on the road. So when I realized that most of the things he was really frustrated about was not only was I gone, but I didn't have some sort of regularly scheduled check-in.

5:38Jon:It would be like, oh shit, I'm about to go to bed. I forgot to call my husband today. It's midnight wherever I am. Who knows what time it is where he is. And that's where the argument would begin. So I had to come to peace with the fact that there are certain things that are going to be important for him while I'm on the road. And I've got to make sure that I can do that in a ritualistic manner. So I got way better at that over time. I was really terrible at it. Like there are some days I'd be like, how many days has it been since I call my husband? I don't recommend that. It's a terrible thing.

6:06Jon:So I'm now in a more ritualistic pattern. So he's happier and recognizing that I'm making an effort. So that's one thing. And then the other thing is when you are actually together to not spend time fighting about when you're not together and to really make sure that the time you are together is precious and focused on the beauty of the moment.

6:30Kory:Yeah, that resonates a lot with me. I think I probably have a carbon copy of your experience there. I get that a lot. One thing I struggle with in this respect as well is managing your energy levels it's something that i think people don't really realize because if i take my most frequent trip which probably to new york um probably almost every month now there's a five hour time difference so you've got the jet lag that means from a british perspective you know you're up really late so it'd be like you know if you're up till 10 p.m it's the equivalent of 3 a.m and then you try and get to sleep but your body clock wakes you up at new york time of like 2 3 a.m yeah and then you end up logging in and of course there's like a whole almost half a day of emails have come in because the UK's woken up way ahead of you so you end up working super early in the morning yeah you have your day you know you have your full day and then you have evening things and then you don't sleep properly the next night and certainly doing the job I do like you're you know being fresh being on your game being clear to think is so important your value comes from being able to deliver things there's you I mean I mean you've got an even more demanding job than I have but you you have to turn up and deliver you know you have to be prepared you have to know what you're doing, you have to deliver and then go to the next thing.

7:41Kory:And often what you're doing, whether it's customer presentations or presenting to the entire company or coming up with, you know, the strategy, you need to think clearly. And I personally find that that's the thing that I have to try and manage is how do you maintain that kind of, you know, energy level throughout all the travel?

7:58Jon:It's really mental conditioning. And one of the things, especially your keynote speaker, I do keynotes as well. Sometimes you roll off a plane because the travel never works out the way you anticipate, barely have a time to get in the shower. And then you have to get on a stage in front of a large number of people and make sure that you can deliver value to your audience. Those I find to be some of the toughest moments. And before those moments, you really have to mental condition and give yourself what I call a vertical moment where you just stand, put your feet on the ground, get your, you know, some deep breathing, recognize the space that you're in, and then be able to step into the energy field that you're going to need to be able to deliver.

8:42Jon:The hard part with all of the things that you're bringing up, the jet lag, the time zones, the travel, is you definitely don't sleep as much. So you're almost doing two full-time jobs because you want to be present where you are. And as leaders, one of the most important things that we need to do is be present. Why am I going to be here in London if I'm on my phone or my laptop all the time with New York, San Francisco, LA, or wherever else I need to be in this moment. So you want to be present with the team that you're with, doing the thing that you're doing. And at the same time, an entire day is happening somewhere else, right?

9:17Jon:And your inbox is filling up and your WhatsApp chains and all of the things are happening. So I find that I'll get back to a, I'll do a full day work, then usually have an evening, whether it's agency partners, teammates, or whatever it is that you're doing for the evening, building relationships. Then I'll get back to the hotel, let's call it 11 or midnight, and now you get on your email. And that could take you till two, three, even four in the morning, and then you got to get up and do it all over again. So it is something that you have to figure out for yourself, like what is going to bring you the energy.

9:51Jon:For some people, that means going to the gym in the morning, working out and getting their day ready. For me, I'd rather take the extra 30 minutes of sleeping or whatever that's going to take. So you, I have learned to be on less sleep when I'm traveling. And then when I'm home, I make sure that I get my regimented seven or eight hours sleep every night. So. Yeah.

10:11Kory:And I'll do the same. I think one thing I'm getting better at now as well is actually scheduling a little bit of recovery time into my agenda. I think, I mean, if I was in New York, then Nashville last week, and I remember it, you know, because it takes about three or four days before you're in the normal sleep pattern, doesn't it? So the first three or four days, I'll probably sleep max three or four hours because of the jet lag. But actually putting in my diary little bits of recovery time or gaps in the schedule, I don't have to be there in time. I've just been a bit of a lifesaver actually.

10:41Kory:That's excellent advice actually. Yeah, and you have to, because the trap I fall into is I go, I'm in New York for four days only and there are more people I want to see than there are hours in a day. So instinctively I go, I must pack it completely but then what happens is in every meeting i know that i'm not delivering to the level that i would want to deliver or i'm meeting someone i want to build a relationship with them i know i'm not giving in that relationship as much i i should be doing so i actually find it's better to do a bit less but do the bit less better i mean a phrase that um a previous guest on the show wonderful woman sophie devonshire talks about in her book uh leading at speed is uh strategic laziness which I just love the concept of.

11:23Jon:I love this idea.

11:24Kory:Which is actually you choose to do more with less and being very choiceful. So I think a discipline I'm trying to get into is, okay, I've got a trip. What are the peaks I need to achieve? You know, so last week we recorded and then I went to see Walgadara in Nashville and had David Droga and this sort of thing. And then, but actually building buffers around those moments to go, I want to turn up fully energized and clear. And I want to have a little bit of recovery time, almost anticipating. I know I'm going to be jet lagged. I know I've got a series of calls to do before and just anticipating those things and almost thinking about your energy levels and actually planning and knowing that that's going to be the case.

12:00Jon:So what I call that is soul care. And that is actually the name of a brand that we created at Elf together with Alicia Keys. And I think this is a really important thing when you're traveling is moments of soul care. And that's a moment, even the five minutes it takes to wash your face, it's wash your face without looking at your phone and doing your email or listening to a podcast or having an argument with your husband or wife or whatever it is that you're doing. but being totally present in the moment, being there for you in that moment, recognizing where you are, where you stand. And a funny aside about Alicia Keys, one of her tours, the world tour she was doing, we had a program we were doing before they started, which was called Soul Care Sessions, where people would have really beautiful, intimate dialogues about really anything.

12:51Jon:She would invite people to talk about affirmations, how they care for themselves, anything that's happening in their lives, just really beautiful, intimate dialogue. And after a couple of cities where I ended up being in, I wouldn't say on the road with her, but in the same cities, I said to her, oh my gosh, this is, you know, maybe the fourth or fifth time I'm seeing you, but how many cities have you been to in the interim? And she'd say something like, oh, this is my 20th or 21st. And again, And contextually, you start to realize where you are on the spectrum of what travel actually looks like for folks.

13:24Jon:And I said, how do you possibly even know where you are with that many cities that you're almost turning every day or every two days or every three days? And she said that sometimes she'll have people on her team right on the mirror in the hotel room that she's in where she is. so that when she wakes up in the morning, she's not disoriented, wondering what time is it? Where am I? What time zone am I in? And that really resonated with me because there are moments when I wake up completely disoriented. Does that happen to you? Where you are wondering for a minute where you are.

14:02Kory:Where am I? What's going on? Yeah. Yeah. And technology doesn't always help because sometimes, you know, your laptop hasn't updated with the local time zone and you get caught out you know the diary hasn't synced properly yeah one other challenge i think and you lead a lot of people in the organization it's very hard to travel and lead right because when you're when you're leading in the same time zone everyone's in the same place you can you know you've got your office hours you're all together you can communicate quickly everyone's connected how do you manage leading the organization you're obviously a global organization as well how do you lead with all the time zone the travel you're unavailable unusual hours etc how does that work.

14:40Jon:Somebody is always making a sacrifice. So when I think about our innovation team, for example, we have chemists in China, laboratories in China, you'll have somebody on the phone, it's 10 or 11 o 'clock at night for them. And it's early in the morning for somebody else. And as long as that is not the norm, but rather the exception to the rule, we also have, we have seven offices, we have China, we have India, and then even across the US, you have different time zones. I'm in California with the team in New York. Three hours is actually a big difference when you're going about the workday and the New Yorkers are waiting for the team in California to wake the elf up because we got things that need to be done.

15:20Jon:So it's everybody having empathy for the other and trying to find the times that are the least disruptive for the most amount of people knowing that it's never going to be perfect for everybody. So it's just, it can be done. We do it. We even have town halls and other moments where we bring together actually everybody, somebody's making a sacrifice. So they accept it because they know it's a valuable moment in time and they're getting valuable information and they get to be together in an important setting with their colleagues and at the same time you can't ask that of people every day so you find the thing that works for let's just say the greatest amount of people and you try to focus

16:08Kory:your energy on those times so we talked about the sacrifice of time like obviously because you're all over the place as there's travel sacrifice in terms of how you then manage others there's also you've also got a hard job to do right you've also got things you have to deliver that's right So that's another thing I think people don't realise in amongst all of that, you're also having to deliver what is a fairly tough position as the leader of the company.

16:32Jon:Do you know where is the best place to do work?

16:36Kory:For me, it's probably on my bike.

16:38Jon:On your bike? How are you doing work on your bike?

16:41Kory:Because I'm thinking.

16:43Jon:For me, it's the airplane.

16:45Kory:Yeah, me too, actually. I love that.

16:47Jon:The amount of work I get done on the airplane is absolutely exceptional. And I love the flight from New York to California and California to New York because it's five and a half to six hours of uninterrupted plane time. And because I'm not doing an overnight sleep, it's a daytime flight either way, even if I get home late at night, regardless, I usually pound out an entire week of work in five or six hours. And on weeks when I actually don't travel, I struggle with where is there a five or six hour brick of time where I can actually get my work done. So I love what you said about your bike for thinking time.

17:32Thinking time and working time for me are two different things.

17:35Jon:So thinking time, there's blocks on my calendar, usually after hours, but really important because one of the things that I like to do every day is reflect on the day. And this does not take a long time. And I asked myself very top side, what went really well today? And most importantly, why did it go well? What had to be true for it to go well? And then on the other side of the chart, what didn't go so well today? I wasn't great in that meeting. I was in a bad mood. I said something I shouldn't have said. Whatever it is. And then I try to unpack, well, what happened? Why was that not great? And the reason I do that is because I believe in incremental progress.

18:15Jon:So if I close the day out today, knowing what was great and knowing what wasn't, then I'll have a better day tomorrow and I'll have more of the great, hopefully, and less of the not so great. So I also do that when I'm traveling and I make sure that I make that a ritual so I constantly have a state of incremental progress and improvement.