Charlie Nicholas | Champagne Charlie

32:45And in those days, you don't really get sympathy. You probably find that from... Tend to be your mum rather than your dad. Your dad had to stand up and face you a little bit and stand up to this and all that type of stuff. he wasn't overly bullish to me but he was supportive to me in the right way I think or he thought it was the right way but when I broke my leg he was tremendously supportive to me he was really really good with me but no I had that when I was young I mean we might move on to you later I gradually kind of lost a little bit of that age as I got older but when I was young I still had that that ambition that desire and that no sympathy for me thank you very much I'm getting on with this and you think of all the other players that I've been through worse than what you go through.

33:28And you think, why should I be mopping them moaning? You know, I'm in a good place here. And your teammates, some of my teammates never got the chance to play for the first team. And I'm sitting there going to silk because I've got an injury. It didn't add up in their world. It just didn't add up at that time. And the other thing, a little touch on that, is that that season before, when I broke the leg, in November, just before I broke it, 82 World Cup was coming up in Spain. And Jochstein was Scotland manager. and he'd never introduced me to the squad. He was always under 23s and he suggested to me, look, if you pick up your form and you get it going, you might have a chance of making this.

34:07You just might. If you don't make it, there's every chance I would like to take you with me on this trip because I can see you as part of the future. So there was myself, Richard Goff, who was at Dundee United, Maurice Malpass, who was at Dundee United and we were kind of three and Stevie Nicholl who had joined Liverpool at that time we were the four that had ideas to move on to be the next group coming through so that was a nice incentive so the broken leg again kind of dispelled that that I was watching from home Was there not uproar? National uproar? You've been scoring all the goals at 19 were there not saying it needs to be in the team?

34:48Yeah there was a bit of questions about it but not really I mean Jock was Jock Jock was the legend of the game quite rightly so no one really debated him very often because he very rarely got things wrong but also within that territory you had the King you had Joe Jordan you had Stevie Archibald Dennis Lodge just finished Alan Brazil was coming through I'm trying to think Andy Gray was there so the competition for strikers places was absolutely surreal it was absolutely brilliant the choice we used to have then It would be nice touch that wouldn't it to go to the World Cup and not knowing you're not playing you can fuck every right kick with a ball Is that what you were thinking?

35:38You think what just happened to it the nation's there and if you don't get a chance that would be horrible but I think it was just a different incentive he was giving me he was basically telling me you're not going to get in but in time you will get in I think that that was the message I wanted to see and you get a little trip out of it I'll ask the same questions they asked before so this next season I've got to hear that all the big big clubs were circling yeah are you still thinking I'm happy I don't want to leave yeah all the way up I got the clubs don't really tell you who's coming or who's watching or anything like that sometimes it's in the press my dad was a printer at the the Daily Express.

36:18He was a night shift worker. He was a printer. And he would get defined out through all the journals who was coming up and all that type of stuff. But my dad was a diehard Celtic man anyway, so he was like, makes no difference. But because I was a regular back in the team, scoring goals again, feeling like I'm suddenly get approached to playing the Scottish national team. I'm playing in Europe. I'm playing against Juventus. I'm playing against Ajax, against Cruyff, these type of things, you just carry along. But I'm still playing in front of 60 ,000 people at Celtic and I'm still a Celtic fan.

36:57Sure, the wages went back to a relevant number. Billy McNeil took me into the office in November and says to me, how are you feeling? I said, well, I'm feeling great. I really am great. He said, what's your plans? and I said, I don't know what you mean by my plans. I said, obviously I'd like to stay here. He said, well, look, I'd love you to stay here, you know that, but I am not in control of your situation anymore. And I thought, oh, Billy used to have a chair that was three foot higher than me. I'd look up and I'd say, what does that mean, gaffer? He says, well, you're not going to see the chairman in Glasgow, private meeting, no agents, no nothing.

37:38and when I'd seen Mr White and he gave me, are you ambitious? Yes, Mr White. You always just say yes to him. That was a way around him. He said, yeah, I was in the RAF and he was telling more about him than me and I left and I just thought, it felt, I'm not the brightest guy in the world in terms of upmarket intelligence but I'm a street guy so I know kind of the language and I went I went home, I didn't go back to training that day I went home and my dad was in because he was night shift and I explained to my father such as a delight me to clog you and I said, it felt that way he said, what are you going to do?

38:24I said, I'll go in and see Billy tomorrow and big Billy, he'll sort it he said, but I thought you said the gaffer can't, his hands are died, and I said I can only ask him, can't I? Anyway, this carried on for two months. We got to January and then I'm told everybody's coming to watch again. Everybody's coming to watch again. And again, I went back in February to see Mr White, hoping that there was a change of philosophy. And he just softly dropped it on me that, look, the way that your life is going, son, you're a bit different. you know you're you're up there with the with the top players we've had but you're a bit different and you've got a different image i thought what's image got to do with this is a man who had no idea of image very aloof and that was the day that i knew that they were going to sell me and i said no i just want so the top i think the top players were on 300 pounds a week i was on my contract was 90 pound a week but if I played the first team it was 220 but when I broke my leg the following week they put me straight back on 90 quid and I thought what type of club is this you know and you lose a little bit of feeling for it and then I had the mortgage to pay like the car to pay uh and I didn't feel bitter that I wanted away I just wanted to stay and I just wanted the same as what the other top guys were getting but I never got an offer were they spinning a different narrative to the fans by the media?

39:57Yeah, of course. Yeah, I wasn't allowed to say anything about my contract situation. They were quiet until it got to the edge where clubs were invited to make a bid. And once the clubs were invited to make a bid, it was up to the club to accept that bid and then whether I could go and speak to them. But they left that until the end of the season. So I'd gone and then we were playing the old home internationals. So I was at Wembley and then we were home to Northern Ireland. I was at Wembley and we were also in Cardiff, I think, playing Wales. So I was involved with the Scottish set-up, but Celtic season had ended.

40:37So the club were now in control of the situation to say, right, we'll invite the clubs in. And then when I got to the internationals, I was told by Celtic that I had to meet Manchester United, Liverpool, They'd spoken to Spurs, but I wasn't meeting them. Not on a personal agenda, it was just something that happened. Inter Milan and Arsenal. So I was to meet all of them on Celtic's permission, but I had to be on Celtic's permission. So you're still on£90 a week? Yes, if I didn't play for the first team, I was on£90 a week. And how much would the heart striker be on? Like the main man at Hearts?

41:26No. No, then. So I'm on the bat as a, will they have been on 200 quid a week? Comparison. Comparison. They would have been higher, yeah. I would imagine the guys at that level, Hearts and things, Hibs and people at that would probably be 150, 200 a week. Just got 48 goals. It's absolutely outrageous that they've not looked after you contract-wise. Yeah, and I actually got hammered because when I'd left Celtic, they made a spin on it that they'd offered me. They never ever said a number that they'd offered me. They'd said they'd offered me payments into a pension. And at 21, you think, that's absolutely irrelevant.

42:08I don't remember you ever offered me any payment. Why would you offer me a payment into a pension when you're not even offering me a contract? It was just like farcical. But I have to go back into my soul a little bit and go back to the King Kennedy-Douglas moment when I felt, I probably made a lot of Celtic fans feel like that. And they probably looked upon it as if it was the same thing. Why are you leaving? Why are you going? Well, I have no choice. That's not really your responsibility, is it? No, it's not. And I didn't want to do anything or say anything bad about the club because it was, I guess, my thinking at that time.

42:47But the players knew it. The players in the dressing room, they all knew it was going. Billy McNeil knew so much about it that he left just after me and went to Aston Villa that's how bad his situation became that must be hard to take that though when whatever's happened has happened but then they're saying that we've offered him this we've offered him that and he hasn't accepted it so it's making you out is that how it was looked yeah yeah I was a villain I was a villain my dad got a hard time from a lot of different Celtic fans it's just reality and my dad was going what do you say to him you know how many people can you say?

43:21Because they were still going on a supporters bus. I mean, this is how ridiculously big Celtic time fans we were. We used to get a supporters bus in the middle of Glasgow to travel half a mile to Celtic Park and back. I mean, it doesn't add up. You would go, that's ridiculous. But that's how diehard we all were at that time. And he had to put up with a lot of grief as much as... It was different for me. I was getting it in the media. But I was... By that time, obviously, I'd moved down. down to England. So I wasn't really getting it as tight as what my dad was probably getting at. So in a way, I was away from it.

43:57And after all them meetings with all the clubs you mentioned, have you just got the pick of the bunch? Liverpool was the one I wanted to go to. And I make no bones about that. I was very, very tempted about going abroad. The style of play that I had was, I thought, more technical than physical. I wasn't a guy who ran the channels and, you know, elbows up. And I would take a kick and I knew how to take a kick. But I wasn't a physical guy who would go 50-50 with your head to head. I was a guy who wanted to enter feet and slide people in. I got as much joy from scoring a goal as I did making a goal.

44:38The nicest feel in the world in a big, big match is scoring a goal. It's the greatest feel in the world. but playing all natural other games making an assist for a teammate or something it's just it's just as joyous in my opinion because that's what the team is, that's what the team's meant to be so I get great joy from that but I wanted to go to Liverpool, the problem was in those days it was two subs and I didn't want to be a sub and then I looked up King Kerry and Ian Rush up front and I thought, where do I fit into this? the best team in the world right now so of course we're with international set up and King Kenny said to me don't you worry you'll get a game and you'll come in I said I won't get in he says look if you're on the bench you'll be getting on for 20 minutes 25 minutes I don't really want to be on the bench King looking back now I still needed educated in my footballing because I wasn't coached very well I was kind of naturally talented and I didn't get a lot of coaching.

45:42And I know Liverpool say at the time they didn't get overly coached, but their players were that good, they coached each other. And I think that education and that mentality would have been good for me. But then you have to think, I'm 21, I'm scoring goals, I'm used to playing in the first team, am I happy to sacrifice that? And I don't think I was ready to do that. So then it was onto the next agenda, who the next team was. And Knicks by nature was probably Manchester United because of the size of the club. I didn't particularly like the conversation I had with Ron Atkinson. It was more about Ron than about the club.

46:23It was very much a, how do you see me fitting in? I kind of knew the youth systems at most clubs because when you play an international youth team, you kind of, you tend to read up, no newspapers, but the match day magazines and the shoot and that's where you get the information. And I knew Mark Hughes was coming through. I thought, that could be a good combination at Manchester United, me and Sparky. And I'd met him a couple of times anyway, but he never spoke anything about the shape of the team or my position. He just spoke about himself. And I just thought, no, I don't know. I don't know if this is for me.

47:01Fate upon the death. Well, actually at one stage, we were sitting in Harpenden just outside London and it was Martin Edwards, him and me and we had a steak dinner and he opened up his shirt and he had this big gold cross and I thought, oh, kind of Catholic method and I thought, what's he going to say to me here? I thought, there's something strange coming here and he hit the button at the top of it and it was a toothpick and he started cleaning he started doing his teeth wet and I thought, oh so I couldn't wait to go back until the boys of the squad had just happened to me and little Gordon Strachan was there and he was at Man United and he was laughing he says that sounds like the big man into Milan as I say I spoke too I was very very tempted about going and playing there but I thought it might have been a lonely place to go I don't know if I was ready for that and gradually when I went to Arsenal I'd been to London once in my life and we got battered 5-1 by England and we were down the road and up the road on the same day.

48:06So I knew nothing about London. But Arsenal conversation was, in particular with Don Howe. Terry Newell was the manager, lovely man, Terry. But Don Howe was the kind of, he just felt like the governor. He just felt as if he was the one you were talking about when it came to the team and the shape. And at that time, we were trying to bring back Liam Brady from Italy. He was just leaving Juve. and he had two offers from two other Italian clubs, but the word was he was homesick. So they were trying to get Liam and they were also trying to sign Ray Wilkins from Chelsea. And he said, we want to change the style.

48:44We want to get ball down, pass it a little bit more, which will suit you. And I thought, oh, I like the sound of this. It's time for change for Arsenal. This sounds right. And I bought into that. We never got Ray Wilkins. I mean, I got Liam Brady. We got myself, John Lukic and Tommy Keaton. And we never changed the style. it's what you want to do here though I'll just tell him that yeah but yeah I showed up by it I looked at it and thought Arsenal had good ambition and sometimes you're young you can be a little bit naive you can get kind of bought into this salesman pitch and I did but I just felt as if and then I also looked at their team and I thought they've got really stunning individuals why can't why can't they piece it together and I thought maybe maybe I can help but I never did it was a hard time great club, not got a bad word to say about Arsenal, I love Arsenal I'm very passionate about Arsenal in fact I'm probably going more to Arsenal than I go to Celtic and I'm still well looked after I love it, I really do, I've got a great passion for them but it was a really hard time to go there for the first especially first 6-9 month it was hard but gradually introduced more people into the club who had a wee bit more idea of where we should be going, which was in particular David Dean.

50:05David Dean started to get involved in the conversations with people. And honestly, that following summer, I know it's another sales pitch here, sounds a bit like Arsene Wenger always saying he nearly got him and he nearly got him and nearly got Messi. But they did go after Maradona. Now, if they got Maradona, I would have probably been on the bench. But I would have been delighted just to train with him. But they did, they went after Maradona and they just missed out. But you could sense that they were trying to change. They were grizzly. Willard Abbott had the time to fit in there. We just had to wait and see.

50:38But great club. I am very, very passionate about Arsenal. Do you remember the first time you met Terry Neill's wife? Whose? Terry Neill's. No, I don't actually. I remember Terry was one of these fun guys. We might have been done here, by the way, because where have you got this one from? First time you met Terry Neil's wife, Charlie said, you must have been a good-looking girl when you were younger. Oh, no, I don't think I would have said that.

51:11But looking back now, every now and again, we just get a red heron. No, I don't recall that. But looking back now... It was Charlie, the exact same. I don't recall meeting Terry's wife at all, but sometimes you don't remember, do you? quick break gents NordVPN has been absolutely saving my life but just back from holiday managed to watch Bolton kick off the season no problem with the under the cosh derby wasn't it it was yeah good start to the season yeah so if you don't know what VPN is all I did while I was there got on me got the NordVPN on then I could watch my wondrous TV did you bounce it back I bounced it back I bounced my location back to the UK watch the match tell you what the only thing that's better than Big Brother is the Nigerian Big Brother and I'm currently watching the Nigerian Big Brother it is sensational so you're bouncing the other way yeah I'm in Nigeria well not only can you bounce your location to anywhere in the world so you can watch them TV programmes watch them different subscription sites from different places sport for me yeah but also your passwords your pin numbers everything under lock and key extra security system with no VPN it's unbelievable I've not had any trouble with any of them hackers have we got an offer we've always got an offer John I know that all you gotta do is follow the link in the description and you get a heavy heavy discount and 30 day money-back guarantee but I can't understand why anybody would want you won't need it no well I hope we haven't been done here sorry Chris was reportedly the highest paid footballer in Britain and was labelled the most exciting British player since George Best not going to deny that are we I can fucking remember that one guy well do you know I don't know if I ever was I mean I went when I went to Arsenal it was there was no negotiation again Billy McNeil eventually got a guy called Bev Walker to come and help me out with a contract who I found out later was an agent I didn't know at the time, I thought it was a pal of billies.

53:28Just one of those things. And then suddenly you meet the guy and he says, this is what, it's a hundred grand a year. This is kind of what you're looking at. And I thought, fine, no problem. Again, it wasn't about the money. It was about committing and going for it. And that's what I did. Yeah, again, it flashed up with George Bestie and I thought, why am I always getting leveled with somebody else, especially when you're not as good as them. But again, it's the image thing, isn't it? It's more the image thing. They want to portray you as the image. That's why he went to London. And yet you had the London journals who some liked me and some didn't like me.

54:13I don't think it was to do with the club. Some people used to say it's because you're a Scot, and I would say it's nothing to do with that. Don't be daft. It could be in a personal agenda. You don't know. I was not really interested in what their personal agendas were or what their thoughts were on me. It was all about me. I had to just try and deliver for the Gunners then. But the lifestyle thing, again, I didn't see why I should change. The music industry was even grander in London. The nightclubs or when I did go out or the parties that I was going to, the females were even more attractive yet again.

54:51so all these type of things they just try and portray into this image thing and you think well I'm 21 I'm single what do you expect me to do? It's as if no he's not allowed to be like that but we're going to label him like that anyway it was an image that they were given up here it was called champagne Charlie you try and live in champagne 90 quid a week it's just impossible How did that first get pinned? It's just a cheap headline isn't it? I remember the first one when I first got in a couple of cup games when I was 17, and it was Charlie Bubbles, and then it was Champagne Charlie, and I thought, and my dad used to come back with his Daily Express and go, God, these guys are getting easy money now.

55:33The headlines are silly. And it was. It was just like, and that's how you get the nickname. You think, well, that's, that's, I've not even worked hard on that. I was working hard on it and living that way. Well done. That was a good one. Was that a phrase before then? Because I know, like, growing up, my dad had always used to go, oh, look at that champagne Charlie. Yeah, yeah. Because it was the original. Yeah, well, of course, there were different ways that they portrayed a Charlie, wasn't it? It was like a proper Charlie or a champagne Charlie. Yeah, it's an image that you put up with. You have to.

56:08There's no way you're ever going to beat the battle against the journals anyway in those days, because it is what it was. Imagine that, going from 90 quid a week to two grand a week. and you're probably going from Susan Boyle to Cameron Diaz, third-wise. John! That was your comment, no mate. Basically, you're living in different circles. There are some very pretty girls in Glasgow. I know that's not all like Susan Boyle, but I'm thinking there's an upgrade. There was more choice, I'd feel like. Sorry, Susan. There must have been part of, you know, at that age, did you enjoy the tag a little bit at times as well?

56:50I know you're saying it was a hindrance. To start with, no, I didn't. I just thought it was kind of cheap and cheerful. I didn't like the... The George Best thing, getting flagged. I ended up real good pals with George. Again, one of the shyest and most humble superstars I've ever came across in my life. But that was probably about a year in when I was at Arsenal. Yeah, it was annoying. But it was annoying because I wasn't scoring goals. I would have been scoring goals, getting good results at Arsenal. I wasn't playing poorly, but I wasn't playing well. And I certainly wasn't scoring goals. and then you have to fall back on, I've had so many good times, sure I've had the broken leg, it's just a bit of pain I've got to put up with until I sort it out, and that's the kind of, kind of just brush it off, tight, thick skinned if you like, and move on with it, but criticism was quite rough, because if we lost, I always got the headline, that it was really my fault, and we had people like Graham Ricks and Kenny Sansom, all international players, David O 'Leary, Pat Jennings, Tony Woodcock, who were never really getting any criticism whatsoever.

58:12And I don't have a problem with that with the boys. I used to always say that openly because I was probably one of the most welcome in the address room, but I was also one of the most happy in addressing them. So I would never bring that up or raise it with any of the boys to say, well could you give me a break? No, it is what it is. Got on with it again, no sympathy. But yeah, so in reality if I scored goals it would have waved it aside but I wasn't scoring goals so in reality again I deserved some criticism but I do remember one game in particular I hadn't scored for I think about nine games or something and we beat Villa I think we beat them 7-1, 7-2 and I think Woody, Tony Woodcock scored five and the headline the next day was, not Tony Woodcock scores five, Charlie doesn't score again.

59:04I was like, oh my God, that's ridiculous. It really is taking it on a personal level. What they didn't mention, especially now in modern day terms, is that I assisted in four of the goals. So it was just, some of it was a wee bit personalised after a while. You don't always read the papers, but there'll always be somebody that tells you that the paper has said such and such. And that's how, it's still the same. in the modern way. So, yeah, it was hard, but to be fair, it's a footballing world, and if you don't score goals and that's what you're bought for, you're going to get stuck. Sounds like a witch hunt, though, doesn't it?

59:38Four assists isn't bad, though, is it? Do you know what I mean? And they're still getting the negatives. Especially when the team's won. Yeah. Yeah. That's a hard part, isn't it? Just personally, isn't it? That's what you want, isn't it? How quick were you on the London music scene after getting down there? Pretty quick. Well, pretty quick, a lot of my pals had been musical up here and had moved to London because that's where they needed to get their name out. I wasn't really close to Jim Carrey, the Simple Minds Boys at that stage, but I knew them. But where there was a little guy in my under-14s, under-15s time at Celtic, it was Owen Paul.

1:00:21And so he was my little teammate for a while, so I used to catch up with him because he was into, He just started singing, well, you're my waste of time. And then he was starting to write a little bit for other musicians. So he would be saying to me, look, there's such and such a decent band. Come and see such and such. And I would go, oh, Ricky, I'll come along there. Remember, you can play golf maybe once a week, the rest of your day. And if you're on your own, I was in nice digs, but it's a lonely place. yeah so the nights were filled by going to kind of music industry and different parties and then all of a sudden again the poppy stuff was coming out nick kershaw and all these type of guys were all coming out haircut 100 and they were bringing out a new single you go to that party and then there's an album coming out next month you go to that party predominantly they're always over chelsea way or somewhere like that that's where you ended up but they were good times i loved it i loved meeting a lot of different people and i thoroughly enjoyed it and i had to learn the language which was problematic because English was was a bit of a problem when you first go to to London to be asked to slow down every time you open your mouth was a bit difficult so I had to kind of slow down a little bit I tried not to but I did eventually you might have Martin Keown to blame here but he said did you ever get changed into leather trousers I probably did, yeah.

1:01:48Funny enough, I was with Martin last week. Yeah, I probably did. There were probably times where we finished the Tuesday training. Sometimes we would get, we only ever trained Highbury on a Friday. But that was obviously the day before a match. Or we were travelling that day to go to an away match. But sometimes you'd get a Tuesday would be a physical at Highbury. And if that was the case, then yeah, I would bring in a change of clothes because that meant I was going out. and was that the go-to the leathers you need a good dry as well for leather trousers I imagine as long as I could get them on I was kind of you don't want to be asking someone to give you a lift pulling them up there

1:02:29diverting diverting the team bus to drop them off at a nightclub after games yeah we did that we actually we got that we we played in this is a really really weird match but we played in North London Derby and it was 0-0 a rotten game absolutely rotten game and the final whistle went and everybody's looking at each other in a really strange way it's just really dull and Eamon Andrews come running around with this red book, This Is Your Life and we were like, where's he going? And he ran by us to Pat Jennings and it was, this has been set up for This Is Your Life to come on the pitch after a London derby.

1:03:18I thought, what happened if we were like a beat? Yeah. And so we all had to go back into the changing room, get ready, and then we had to go to this function. So the bus was taking the team to this function and we were there 20 minutes and it was boring as hell. And I looked at the boys and we all went, because we were off the next day. I thought, come on, let's get in a drive and drop us in at Stringfellows. He went, he won't do that, will he? And I went out and I said, Bob, would you mind dropping us in? For you, young man, no problem, let's go. And then he's coming, there was about 12 of us all went in that night.

1:03:53So he dropped us at Stringfellows after a London derby. Jesus Christ. Who held the best, which band held the best parties? I can imagine some of them were outrageous back in the day. sometimes when the pump boys came in it always got a bit way over the top because they tended to just disrupt everything straight away and then they would smile over at you because some of them were I think two of them were Arsenal fans but anyway especially the Pistols boys but they never kind of gave much away in the music industry again I think it's where they go afterwards themselves i think that's where they go and do whatever they want to do sometimes you used to get a club called tramp uh which was a little bit more upmarket but a lot of the so-called celebs the grace jones and all these type of musical people used to come in they were very outrageous in there that's where they tended to really go for it big style and tramp did you ever smash a telly up just like because you can't no i've never seen a few scuffles on the floor at different times fighting over different girls or whatever they were fighting over.

1:05:11But yeah, it was a bit rough and tumble, but nothing. No, nothing. Major rock star. I just think I'd just smash one just like... Just want to get involved. Yeah. Make a statement. Yeah. Quick break, gents, because I've got a bit of a confession. One, I've actually been using, I'll say it, a bit of Claude AI to help us out with the notes for the episodes a little bit. See, I don't think it is a confession. I don't mind you getting better at your job. I've improved. The stats and that. I'm glad you said that because I've got a few extra stats from Claude himself. I sent him your dinner, John. Have you got them there?

1:05:50Chris Bowne's last professional goal came in April 2014. He has watched change since that time. Pint of milk costs 46p. It's now 90p to a pound. England have had four managers. Watford have had 20 managers. probably more by the time this goes out. Petrol was 129.7 a litre and the UK has consumed between 90 and 100 billion pints. A lot has changed in that time. How old was you, Bellingham, at that time? Ten.

1:06:24No, it's been a game changer, hasn't it? Organising our emails, like the co-working side of things, sorting out the drafts, again, sorting out the... the notes and the stats for each episode. I don't think there's a better AI system out there. Would you mind if I tell you a bit more about it? Go for it. I want to get this right though. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. That's me. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and things with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter.

1:07:04Well, for problems we're solving, get started at claude.ai.co.uk Your job has just got so much easier, hasn't it? That 85-86 season, it kind of changed for you then, didn't it? 18 goals that year? Yeah, I thought things started to change when Paul Mariner, we signed Paul Mariner and I dropped back to what we called the Diamond Inn. It wasn't really known as the Diamond Inn. English football had changed in 1983. It was going through a change. Douglas and Liverpool were still setting the standards. And their style was their style. It was get the ball into the King, Russia in there, they'd soon-ass, they'd everything.

1:07:49They had the whole package. The balance was great. Hanson at the back, Lawrenson also. And no one copied them. And everybody kept going, why does no one copy them? In 85, 86 then, I think George started to come into the scene. But we signed Stevie Williams from Southampton and he helped me a lot. He just started to knock into my feet and I started to link up a little bit. Dave Rowe Castle was in the team. I started to link up with him. Viv Anderson came in. He was the same. It was a much better feeling of togetherness in the team. And we started to play a lot better. I started to get a few more goals.

1:08:26Basically, you're changing the style of player that you thought you were going to get when you first arrived. Yes, it was basically that. That's how it was becoming. And then as it started to change and started to evolve, you could tell, especially at that time, because we had four or five young players who were all coming in. Roe Castle came in and made a big statement. Tony Adams came in and made a big statement. Martin Keown, if he would have stayed on, it would have been touch and go, but Dave O 'Leary would have been under pressure with Martin because one thing about Martin, he could defend, he could run and he could kick and he had all the principles of being a real solid defender and then you had a few others sitting in the wings Merce would eventually at that stage he was just starting to bloom but there was a few others who were all starting to come through and you started to realise good young balance here Stevie Williams come in did a real good job for us Viv Anderson the same and Paul Mariner was great for me also so yeah it started to develop into a nice way of playing and I think in the early season I think if I remember correctly I think it was the 100th North London derby we went a horrible wet night pitch was awful and we beat Spurs 2-1 it was a good game NTN game and I think we went four points clear to the top of the old first division that night ahead of Liverpool so we were starting to really look as if we had a chance and then I think within two or three weeks it kind of dipped again and as it started to dip you know there was a change of who's coming in and who's not coming in but no that was a good time for me yeah we started to play pretty well and I was confident and also the World Cup 86 was coming up so I had an incentive to try and because Joxene had left me out the national team he didn't come and see me at Arsenal Was that because you didn't go to Liverpool?

1:10:21I think that was part of the issue yeah I think that was part of the issue determined I should have went to Liverpool and I didn't and I think he picked me once after that no twice I'd scored against Belgium I think and then he didn't pick me didn't come to see me at all play and he just left me out of the team for whatever the agenda was I don't know It's a strange one because you said yourself if you go to Liverpool the chances are you're not going to start every game which would have meant you're probably not going to get picked for Scotland anyway if you know what I mean yeah I take that point that kind of makes sense in my brain but I think also if you're subbed for Liverpool you'd probably still get picked it was just a way of it that that would be I mean there's a lot of things up here in the past recent years you don't always play for Celtic but you'll you'll get in the national team it's just you know reputations I suppose in a different way but yeah but that incentive was changing and we'd lost Jock I think Jock Jock was passed away, sadly, in the Wales game.

1:11:28And Alex Ferguson was taking temporary charge of the set-up for Mexico. So there was a different feeling. He invited me to join the B team in Aberdeen once. And then he came, he was Aberdeen manager, but he came to watch me play at Villa for the Arsenal and had waited for me after the match and had a 10-15 minute chat and told me I should be involved now. I should start to think about getting involved. We can only get involved when you're picked. Yeah. Do you all well cope song? Oh, God. Off the top of my head, no. I'm just wondering if you got to grace the top of the pop stage. We're making the big trip to Mexico.

1:12:14Oh, we did the usual top of the pops. It was dreadful. But were you all over that? But you were there. Oh, no. I thought you'd have been in your life. Oh, no. I think me and Hanson stood at the back. It was brutal. It was really... Alan Ruff and all the other guys were up the front giving all that. I thought you'd have been... Yeah, I'll show you how it's done, man. Yeah, leather trousers at the front. Was that the best... You're saying it was your best period, the final, the League Cup final, scoring two. Was that the... Well, yeah. I mean, it's the only trophy I ever won. But I think at that period, especially when George came in, George was a very, very good coach.

1:12:55George and me never quite got on. But what I did recognise very quickly, his coaching was excellent. It really was excellent. Not everybody gives him the credit for the defensive set-up. I mean, that was hard work for those guys. And we had to work them sometimes as strikers. But some of his stuff for attacking sense was good also. I enjoyed his training. I really did. I didn't enjoy his company, but I enjoyed his training. Am I right in saying that he came out at one time, whether it was in private or whatever, and said the London lifestyle was affecting your player? He had suggested that. Or you weren't meeting your potential?

1:13:29Yeah, he suggested that. By the time George came, actually, my kind of lifestyle had calmed down quite a bit. I'd moved into a flat in Highgate, and Highgate Village and Hampstead Village are great little places. Don't know what you're going to say. Just didn't make any difference. These had enough there for me. At that stage, I was understanding a little bit more about life, that you just have to keep the head down a little bit. And if you're scoring goals, just enjoy it and go on with it. Football's the key. So, yeah, I suppose I was growing up a little bit. I wasn't looking to settle down in a private way, but, yeah, I calmed.

1:14:08I wanted to try and do some things a bit slower in my off-field activities. and it kind of worked for me a little bit because I was getting more results on the pitch. And George liked to play that down, saying, oh, this is the reason why. I wasn't training any different. I wasn't training any different. But it just happens. Football's like that, isn't it? When you're good, things go well. When things are bad, you think back to basics, back to basics. And yeah, but I enjoyed that time. I was enjoying my football far more at that time. again I have to mention the incentive of potentially getting the World Cup because that was important that was always a big box ticket for me if I could do that and witness that but it was good the build up but you could see that George had an idea of how to bring individuals and to be a bit more ruthless as a team and get the balance a little bit more right Did it end on a sour note?

1:15:11I know you said that they treated you very well but it seems like he's wanted you out from no matter what you did on the pitch. Your face didn't fit. No, it didn't fit. I think also the problem that George had with me, I think when George was a young player, I think he was known as quite a stylish young guy. He hung about Chelsea and he was into the music stores. If I'm right, there was him and Terry Venables and the guy who worked in that music store was Elton John. They didn't know he was going to be a superstar at that time. so he was kind of doing the things that I was doing and I think jealousy kind of played a part in George.

1:15:49Just we're doing as well, are you? He was still on stolen boil I think when he got to the stage that he looked at what I was doing and probably also by that time when he was the manager he'd kind of seen the salary I was on, he probably thought I don't know if I like this I was probably more popular with the Arsenal supporters than George at that time and if you're a real gaffer, you want to kind of control that. I wasn't looking to be anything different. I was just looking to be the normal team guy. But managers can look at it differently. And yeah, from day one, I could tell George was keen to get me kind of moved on.

1:16:31He signed Perry Groves, who was very, very quick, tenacious and a great desire. Perry had a great desire coming from Colchester. So myself, Graeme Rex, Kenny Sansom, we all kind of knew our time was coming to an end, but I was the main figurehead who had to go so that he could prove the point that he was a top man at the club, and that's what he became. With that in mind, did he block moves for you, even though he didn't want you? Yeah, he did. I went to Toulon in south of France. I went to Nice, met the people there. Toulon weren't a big name at the time, but I did fancy playing in Europe. I've always had fancied playing the technical side.

1:17:11Macy's nice as well, isn't it? It would have been very nice, yeah. I could have lived it. I was starting to settle down with my now wife then, right enough. But we went with Ken Friar, who was a club treasury. He's still involved in the club, Ken, to this day. And we went over there, we agreed the deal. 400 grand, I think, was the deal. And I flew back the next day, went to get my boots, picked them all up, ready to go. and George just refused to ever talk to me, just made me train with the reserves and completely out of the way, so I never seen anybody, and one of his staff members came over, I think it was Steve Birkinshaw, and he'd said to me, no, the deal's off, the deal's off, so you'll need to come back to training tomorrow, and I was like, well, I need to speak to him now, no, you can't, you'll need to speak to Ken Fryer, so I never got a conversation with him, and then they sent me, just kept sending me, Yeah, and sometimes I trained them on.

1:18:10Sometimes I trained with the second team. Just got your head down and go on with it. But for five months, I was isolated, just left out in the cold. I think you got invited to better parties than fucking George did. Yeah, I'm sure I did. You couldn't handle it. Yeah. But that is just like career wrecking, potentially, isn't it? Yeah, it was. At one stage, he sent me to Cambridge with an under-19s. It was a little tiny minibus. But I had to go or else I would get fined. There was a guy, Tommy Coleman, I think it was, was in charge of it. And I'm up the back of this little minibus with these kids.

1:18:51And he said, I don't know what to say to you. I said, well, I've got to come. I said, and then as soon as I'm back in the bus there and that's it, I said, does there any chance I could take my car? And then as soon as you say that's where you can go, I can drive back from there. I said, because he ain't going to play me, is he? He said, no, you're on the bench. I was just like, that's so petty. It really is so petty. And then I'd try and meet him the next day. No, you can't have a conversation with him. So I never, ever got a conversation with him. I eventually met George when we were on Sky together.

1:19:24Fortunately, when he walked in, the cameras were rolling. so I never had the chance to have a bit of an issue with him but I just thought he was weak I thought he was very very weak the way that he handled me and the way that he did it but that's life you know it's one of them I just move on I'm putting the most outrageous things I've got on my wardrobe on just to piss him off because he looks he goes oh he looks well I'm making that team bus that team bus from Cambridge is definitely dropping at the string fellas and all the whiteys are in with me fuck it I'll get them lads I think they were all warned, the kids were warned.

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1:22:06So it's coming to leaving then? Yeah. Are you thinking, because I think I'd be thinking, I don't mind stopping in London. I quite like it here. I knew I was going to have problems with the French thing being cancelled. So then I had to, my agent at the time was an Arsenal fan, Jerome Anderson. So Jerome was communicating with Ken Fryer and we were trying to get to David Dean, but we didn't want to get David involved because David, he wasn't a dear friend. He's a close friend now, but he still had an involvement with the club that he had to protect himself. So Jerome had to go on with the negotiations.

1:22:49So we started to get introductions from other teams interested. So Jerome got a call from David Pleat who was at Spurs. I didn't know this. Jerome took about a week to tell me but he had said I'd be really interested in bringing him to Spurs. Jerome says, I don't think that's a possibility David. He said, look,

1:23:17all I'm telling you is that I'm really keen to bring him to Spurs. Jerome never told me this for about a week. And eventually he told me, and I said, well, there's no way that's happening. That's just a non-starter. He said, yeah, but I'm going to say it to George because it'll really piss him off. And it did. But I think we did it in the wrong way because Jim Smith was the manager at Derby, and Jim was a bit of a character. and he had went to the club and inquired and he got told no, he's not signing for another English club. And then Brian Clough had found out about us and of course if you say no to Brian, that means he's going to be inquisitive.

1:24:02So he'd phoned Jerome and said to Jerome, what's happening with the young man? And Jerome said, nothing, he's training away on his own with the kids and he said, he's all right, he said he's just getting on with it, He knows he'll never get back in. He said, George is smug and arrogant. And he said, Jeb, well, you try and get Chal out the door. He said, I'll phone him. I wouldn't mind taking the young man. So I don't know how that call went, but obviously I never ended up there. So I don't think it went too well. So I was kind of isolated. And then I spoke to the club and the club said, George is in control of your situation.

1:24:41That's what we can do. And I thought, this is ridiculous. why is he just there's just nothing I said I can't even get a conversation with the man he said well we can't do that he's in charge of the current situation and then Aberdeen invited me to go up in December I went up and spoke to him I had absolutely no no thought that I wanted to go there but I just thought I'll go and speak to him just to see if I can shake the boat to start a conversation with other teams sounds like no other option I was hoping at that stage that maybe Celtic would have came back and spoke to me, but they didn't need me at that time.

1:25:19So it was drifting a little bit, and I was just trying to stir the pot just to make it as if, how the hell can I get out of here now? Because that's what it was coming down to. And eventually I just, I wanted to play football. I just wanted back to play football again. And I agreed to go to Aberdeen just out of convenience to get away from it and just start playing again. and that was the main reason I went there. And in all honesty, it was good for me. It was good for me because it took me that season to get up to speed. But the next two seasons, I won two trophies and it was quite a good return for me.

1:25:55But I definitely, it set me back a bit. I'd lost a little bit of desire for the game. It sounds like you'd been ground down to that point. Yeah, that's what I felt like. And it was the first time in my career I go back to and no sympathy. I felt sympathy for myself. I started feeling sorry for myself. Yeah, especially when you could have been, you know, in the marina in Villefranche and you're stepping out in Aberdeen. Yeah, that could have been nice. But Aberdeen was a good move for me. Eventually I got over the sympathy tag and it's just manned up a little bit. But by that time, my brain had changed.

1:26:33You know, the keenness and enthusiasm for it all I kind of definitely dropped off. Did you turn up in a long leather jacket and a fedora? I did, yeah. What's a fedora? I like it. Nice big hat. Bono used to have one. A nice big hat. Yeah, a nice big hat. Especially in the wind up there because it never blew off. It was quite a broad brim. It was Alex Hurricane Higgins. He had one and I'd seen it on Alex Higgins. he had a tiny wee head and it was too big for him but I loved the brim of it and he said to me I'll take you to my hat maker and sure enough he took me to the hat maker in Mayfair and he bought me this hat and he even that Alex Higgins bought me yeah he just bought me the hat we used to do a lot of sports events together in London there was always lots of things going on and the snooker guys were starting to do a lot of important events for them and I used to love Again, passing time and just passing time with some of these guys, some great characters.

1:27:40And yeah, so I landed in Aberdeen in early January with a long leather coat and a pedora hat and that was it. Do you still wear them? I know fashion goes round in circles. Have you stayed with that look? No, no, no, no, I haven't. I've never really had a look. I don't know what, that's what I'm saying. I was always confused. I like what I like and that's what I wear, no matter what anybody thinks about it. Now that I'm older, you know, it's like I've got two girls and two grandsons now, but they're more inclined to want to say, why are you wearing that, Dad? And I go, why are you wearing that shoes?

1:28:19What are you wearing? Don't make me go through that phase. Two peas in a pod. And I just think, no, I hate wearing suits. There's something about suits I just hate. I don't know, I felt as if when I used to wear a club blazer, I used to hate club blazers for whatever reason. I don't know, I felt like a politician. And I just never liked that feeling. I've always been a very casual, easy dress guy, but it has to be good in my eye. If it's good in my eye, I'll wear it. If it's not. Just going on with the Sky thing, was there a dress code yet? I can't remember if you were there 20 years. Was it a suit job at any point now?

1:28:56Not really. the early days when I first got on Soccer Sart was the boys all wore suits and shirt and tie. Because they were, so the guys at that age, so you're talking Rodney Marsh, Uncle Frank McClintock, Phil Thompson, the original one that he started on, bestie to a lesser extent when he felt like it, Clive Allen, Alan Mullery. And then we, the younger ones started to come through and we just wore like a nice t-shirt under a jacket, but it was always a jacket. And then gradually in time we started, because you couldn't see under the table, we would wear jeans. And they would say, you can't wear jeans.

1:29:36Well, you can't see them. But the table's up to there. And they went, oh, we like this. So they started, the older guys started wearing jeans. So no, there was no real team pattern to it. Everybody was allowed to do whatever they wanted, but they did like you wearing a jacket. Phil Thompson was the only one he would keep every week shirt and tie he loved getting dressed up Tom absolutely loved it it's easy though isn't it you know you can't make any mistakes can you yeah no he was but he was always a mac he was the tie and the collar it was all bang on absolutely crisp sharp he always loved his he loved his clobber Tom he was always he was always into his fashion but he always did look smart the rest of his a wee bit scruffy other than Latiz Latiz was the scruffy I remember watching you and just thinking that looks like the best job ever that it was for a spell it was for a spell because we were allowed to say whatever we wanted we were softly warned about never swearing but we never did just the way of the chat but we were also told whatever you want to say you see the thing is you have to work off Jeff because he's such a top fella and I love a football that is just there.

1:30:58It beats non-stop about everything in football. And when that happens, what we realised is that we were kind of the four guys in the dressing room who wanted a little laugh and a giggle and made a mistake or Mercy's tooth fell out or something like that. So we got to the stage where we realised this is more like a dressing room banter rather than telling you anything about football because you just couldn't see it. No one could see it. It's a radio show. And we started to realise we could have more fun with us. And I think the more fun we had, the more the public liked it. Because we used to do this thing before MERS came on, but there was five of us in the panel and we put 20 quid in each, so it was 100 quid aca.

1:31:40You had to pick one team, but it had to be a half-decent price, roughly about even. And we never won for three and a half years. Three and a half years, and everybody said we were the best pundits in the world. we were hopeless

1:31:55did that fill an hole for you though you know I know lads we've had many lads come on and when they've retired and they've finished and they missed that changing room the answer the being around the lads I've never been in a show like it done a lot of live football sitting in studios analysing the game and then you analyse the game in your head don't you as an ex-footballer and you think I know the answer to that. And then they put the footage up and it's nothing to do with how you've analysed the game and you're just talking, well, the cross was great and the header was great and it was a great save or whatever.

1:32:30So you're only talking about the footage. In this conversation, you had two and a half hours of chat about loads of different managers, loads of different techniques, different shapes and a lot you got wrong. And you'd have a manager come on one day. I remember I'd been slagging West Brom, Gary Megson, for about six weeks. He's too defensive. Everything's too defensive. Everything. He has to break forward eventually. He needs a couple of midfield runners. And managers sometimes get invited onto the show. They don't always want to come on, but they'll get invited on. And Jeff had said to me, we're two minutes on air.

1:33:10And he said, the next up after the break is Gary Megson. I went, oh, oh. and he said he said Jeff always gets at least three questions in first if it's going well we might the rest of us might not get involved but I said no problem I'd usually always go I'd like to come and ask a question to anybody because that's what you're supposed to do when you get the chance and Megson came on and I thought yeah sure I'll ask a question so I put it to him you know do you not think you're very defensive he said well I've heard you say that now for six weeks I said but you've only scored one goal in six games and he said, it's exactly what I told my players today.

1:33:47He said, I think you're right. I think we could do a change here. So I've said that to the players today and he said, are you doing the game today, Charlie? I said, yes, I am. It was, they could beat 2-0. They never changed. And I just thought, at least they're there to ask the question. If you're going to be critical and an opportunity arises, you should ask that guy of being critical of the question. And that's what we all love. We love having our opinion. Did Jeff ever go to spec service? Yes, he did, yeah. He always does. He likes to pick on that one. I sent it to these earlier. It's one of the best things I've ever seen.

1:34:23There's just so many funny moments, especially with him, because he can be so precious, but yet he's so talented. And that's what we love about him. And we just found him to be like the vulnerable manager. And can we provoke that vulnerable? I've seen a bit of George in him, so I was hoping to provoke him a little bit more. but he's so talented but yeah they were great I mean some of the stand up stuff that he did I don't know if you ever remember when he stood up about the the Jordies and and the bridge about Australia and oh it was like it was a I always remember it was 4 minutes 32 seconds and he we were at the bar we always met at the bar on a Friday night back at 10 probably were in bed for about 1 o 'clock he was probably there at 8 in the morning and I think he had one run at it on his notes and he cracked it without the notes cracked it and we were like that's how talented he was he was unbelievably scary great brain amazing brain on that spec service one it looked like you had about four comebacks going through you yeah there might be a bit too harsh that one I'll not say that one but it makes you panic because he'll say you said such and such four weeks ago and I'll say I can't remember four minutes ago and he's picking on you and he's coming back again because you've got to remember you know he's always got the last word and if he's got the last word you're finished you know when you were at Aberdeen I know you scored in the final the penalty did you know that you were signing for Celtic going back to Celtic not 100 % I had spoken to them with a prospect of going back again I had the chance to go to France I'd settled down and I wanted to settle down and start a family, to be honest.

1:36:17I thought the time was right for me at that stage and just see where my career was going to go after that. I started to enjoy my football again. It wasn't at the level ultimately I wanted it to be at, but it was an acceptable level and that's where I was missing the real desire that I used to have when I was younger. but it was a decent level again I had the chance to go to to France and that kind of my wife at the time she just wasn't keen at all to move at all and all the relatives my relatives and my wife's relatives are all Celtic fans so the prospect of her saying no we're going to say no to Celtic was becoming a bit of a a burden but the one problem I did have was that Celtic were not in a very good place at that time for the potential to return and of course me scoring the penalty I didn't win the shootout, Aberdeen won the shootout but that put Celtic out of Europe for the first time in 40, 30 odd years or something, so if I was joining Celtic I was not playing in Europe that season either Was it I bet it was tough to play for Celtic when, because I've got a trophy-less four trophy-less seasons I bet it was tough being a Glasgow lad It was tremendously tough, tremendously tough, coming back the first pre-season we played Everton we beat Everton and we started to look not bad, we'd signed John Collins, Martin Hayes came from Arsenal and we were looking a bit better but there's still something wasn't right.

1:38:03Rangers at that time were spending money that we'd never seen or heard of. We were wondering where it was coming from, but at that time you just had to go on with it. But it was the start of the season and on the Friday we were doing sprints, the common sprint day on a Friday, just to tone up for the Saturday kick-off and I ruptured my hamstring. So I actually missed eight months of that season. It was tough. even when I came back it got tougher but yeah Rangers were strong they were spending a lot of money and Celtic were Aberdeen were still I'd left a better Aberdeen team than Celtic were at that stage but there's something in your heart that always tells you you think you can help and when it's not when it's not helping then you start to really I don't know if you guys would feel it when you got older but when you hit the 28, 29, 30 button there's a certain little kind of insecurity comes in the brain that you start to go do I have to do I have to do something different what am I doing wrong what am I supposed to be doing what whereas at that age you're supposed to be thinking you kind of know oh you've seen it all and you're not really thinking that too much about it I started to to go the other way I started to find a little insecurity but in that I was getting the ball just passing it get it passed get it pass, get it pass instead of wanting to take people on.

1:39:31It was just a little bit of self-doubt starting to keep in time again. Might have been done again here, but we'll try. Is the story true about Martin Ayers getting locked in his car and missing training? Yeah, I was in the car. You were in it with him? Yeah, it was a guy we signed for Aberdeen called Johnny Hewitt. Johnny wasn't the cleverest boy around, but he loved sport cars. He was mad about cars and he had every gadget so locking devices everything you name it johnny had it click click click you name it everything he knew everything so we used to the little training the pitch barryfield was only like it's only like half a mile up the road but everybody used to jump in cars certainly would never put a little bus on to take us up uh we never ever walked up whereas when i was younger the first time around we used to run up uh so i don't know how it changed but anyway we come out of the car and hazy it's two seater and hazy was in the back and i got out the passenger seat and johnny going and it was a i always remember there was a friday and it was two two teams at eight eight aside and we just got out shut the door never thought anything of it and johnny went click click click click oh you heard that was it and we just walked over not thinking anything of it did with five eight asides and suddenly somebody said somebody's missing and we said what do you mean somebody's missing and one of the staff said the physio Brian Scott said well whoever it is I don't know where he's going but I'll make up the eight so that was eight V8 so that's all we cared about we couldn't care about thinking who it might have been but we finished it must have been there an hour an hour and a quarter and we come back over, walking over the other pitch.

1:41:21And suddenly you could see that John's car was just steamed up. And he went, what's happened to my car? And I thought, oh, Hazy. I just realised, Hazy. Man, Hazy's still in there. That's who's missing. And sure enough, we opened the door. He's sitting in the back like this. And how was training today, guys? That's absolutely crushing that. Because not only have you got the car and forgot that he was in there, you've got to training, you've realised there's somebody missing and you've still not put two and two together. You're still not asked? No.

1:42:08So when you obviously left Celtic, Clyde, were you ready for finishing? Clyde. Were you ready for retiring? Oh, yeah. When you finally retired? The last season at Celtic, I wanted to retire. When I went to Aberdeen, my manager at that time, when I first went, was Ian Porterfield. Famous for, obviously, his epic up goal win for Sunderland. But Alex Smith came after him. And Alex Smith was a friend of the family who I knew well. Successful man at St Mirren. Very, very well-respected coach in the whole of Scotland. In fact, should have been Scotland manager at one stage. Now lives in Australia. and he kept saying to me at Aberdeen you would be a waste if we can't get you to coach and help out for the coaching for the kids especially he was talking about kids from a living up who have to work on their touch and technique he said I need to get you involved we'll get we'll get your coaching lessons up here you can do this and that so I was doing a little bit of that but at that stage, because I started when I was quite young, I had a broken leg but mainly it was muscular.

1:43:17My hamstrings were really, really off. Lost a good yard in them at least. So I had to start to think about what I was going to do when I finished playing and that was 32 and I looked at it and I thought, do I want coaching? And then strangely enough, I was offered a couple of managers jobs. So I was offered the Barnet job and I thought, no, I don't really want to do that and then I was offered the Storian national team job and it was a three month contract because they basically played three games over three months and then they go and they train and live in Cyprus for six months and I thought I could do a bit of that and the money was good and I thought yeah wife again no no no no you're not doing anything so I went back Alex Smith was at Clyde and he had phoned me and he had said what's the thoughts then what are you going to do with the coaching I said no he said look we've got a good coaching school down in Scotland Mourinho's been there you name them have all been there I said that doesn't make them great coaches that doesn't make them they'll become great coaches if they're going to be great coaches so I went to Clyde on the on the back end of want to be a coach and I was no disrespect to the boys but the boys were the rejects from from Hearts, Hibs, Kilmarnock, maybe some lesser teams, who had been a bit broken.

1:44:43And some of them were very talented, but they were trying to hit passes that Souness would hit occasionally, trying to do things that the Gleach would do very, very occasionally. And I kept looking at the boys and saying, boys, that's not, that's why you're here. You're here because you need to put it in perspective and this is what you need to do. And after eight weeks, I'd agreed to play in that league just because we had to facilitate the contract that I'd agreed on. So I managed to get Citroën to pay my salary for that year. In fact, for two years. But the hope was that I would do that and possibly move into the coaching at the end of that season.

1:45:22But after eight weeks, I had enough. I just had enough. And they said, would you want to do it? I said, I'll see you at the plane. And then I went on holiday to Italy. and I was training quite hard in the summer. Don't know what I was going to do. So I've still got another year with Clyde and eventually Alex Smith phoned me at my hotel in Sorrento and he said, when are you coming back to pre-season? I said, when does it start? He says, yesterday. I said, not for a while then. He said, what? I said, yeah, I've got another 10 days here. I said, look, Alex, we're great pals. See the contract? put it in a shredder I don't want anything I ain't coming back I just I can't take anymore I've had enough okay thanks very much son I wish you well and I came back and I just moved in I got offers from the media to come in and do BBC Scotland up here and there's a radio glide up here so it was predominantly all you do is talk about Celtic Rangers all the time but that started me out on an adventure and then very quickly I was into BSB they had a 13 game contract up here with Gordon McQueen and then I started doing Channel 5 and the whole media network just started to turn at a lovely time for me.

1:46:39It was a really nice time for me because I just moved into that and I thought, well, this is it. I've never had a bad game yet. When you was doing Soccer Saturday regular, would you travel? Yeah, yeah. Well, it was always up and down. I could be there four days. Moving back down. Yeah, I could be in London. I could do a Tuesday show, Wednesday show, waste the time coming back up on the Thursday because I had to be back on the Friday night at 10 o 'clock to meet the boys in the bar. That was the key ingredient. Yeah, that was pre-match. It was Jeff, me, Tomo and Chris Kamara. Every Friday, we were there at 10 o 'clock.

1:47:19I mean, never, ever spoke about the show. Never spoke about the show. Just talked nonsense to each other for three hours, but it was great fun. But yeah, so I could be down four days. I could be down one day. It was a great gig. We were well looked after at Sky, in the early period especially. And football was just, you know, we were the big show. We were the showcase before live stuff was coming on. And it was just meant to be fun. Yeah. And that's exactly how it was. I'd watch it for the personalities. Yeah. Not necessarily about the football. Yeah. You know, you were getting the results in, but...

1:47:54It used to be a fantastic day Saturday. Yeah. It was like watching Top Gear. You've got your soccer aim all the morning and then you not me personally because we weren't allowed to back then but you put your coupons on and you watch soccer Saturday and it were a good day. Sat in the boozer enjoying it. Fucking crap now. It made it better when you was fucked up. Were you there when Kamara didn't realise there'd been a goal or somebody being sent off? Well the following week on a Friday so we're at the bar and sometimes I used to be down, if I did a Wednesday gig, I wouldn't go back to Glasgow on the Thursday morning to get back on a Friday.

1:48:36So I'd just stay down. So sometimes I'd be at the bar a bit early and I would say to Tom, what time do you train? Such and such, right, okay, I'll get you in the bar about nine. So this TV crew are in the bar at nine. And I'm looking at them and I thought, are you from Sky? And the guy says, no, no, we're from Australia, but we're doing the guy from Sky. And I said, what guy are you doing? He said, the guy who's the worst journalist or the worst guy on Sky. And I was like, who's that? He said, is it Kamara? I said, the worst guy on Sky. And he said, yeah. He said, the guy that made the arse of the story with a missed goal at Portsmouth.

1:49:15And I said, oh, Chris Kamara. To all accounts, he thought they were over to interview him seeing how good he was, when basically they were ripping the piss at him.

1:49:30it was great fun and cammy took it really really well but yeah i mean that's what that was the secret when we never took it serious yeah but we used to get like you used to feel a wee bit good about yourself right now sometimes the camera at a stadium say old trafford or whatever it would pan around the boxes at halftime and on every screen with soccer saturday we were all on all the screens and you'd be sitting there going Tom will be laughing his time Miss it I miss the boys I didn't get to enjoy the last bit of it no we were starting to be told more or less what to say which I find really weird now because it seems to be the influencers and everything is getting allowed to be their expressive selves but We were kind of getting told not to be like that.

1:50:26I miss the lads. I particularly miss Jeff and I miss Tomo. No disrespect to Tiz and Merth, but they're a bit younger than me. I miss Cammie, but he didn't always come in the studio, Cammie. But I do miss him as a guy. Great company. So, yeah, I mean, I miss the boys. We do catch up occasionally and it's, you know, we've never been away from each other. It's real good. and I just love Tomo and Jeff or cat and mouse they just chase each other around the room it's just like it's a lovely argument of conversation constantly that you have to butt in just every now and then but it's just great fun but yeah just towards the end when they started to say this is the reason we're changing it there was no reason to change it there was absolutely no reason to change it if you wanted different and we used to be asked with our opinion have you got anybody you would recommend to come forward and be involved in the show.

1:51:23And we would put a couple of names forward. And they never listened to any of the names that we would put forward. And they decided to go down another route. What are you doing? Will you settle now then? Myself? I'm still doing quite a bit. I do theatre work a lot with Arsenal's fans base. I do bits and pieces for just different events. I don't do stand-up or anything. I'll do some Q &As at sports events I like to do. I'm involved in other businesses and green businesses so I've been busy trying to get them to completion because it's a buzzword in the world at the moment, green and carbon and all this type of stuff, there's nothing to do with me, I just got involved in it a few years ago and I'm just hoping we get it over the line so yeah things are good, life's good as I say I'm a granddad twice over and I've got another one due in November so might be the third boy so maybe I'm on I'm on my way to a five-a-side team of who knows.

1:52:21And we always ask this question. I'm thinking this one might be a bit different to normal. So you sat in a pub Sunday afternoon. Who's your five people you want in there? I'm thinking there could be Madonna, Grace Jones, Bono. Well, Bono would have to be there. I mean, he knows nothing about football. I got the word that they were trying to buy Celtic at one stage and I was interested and Jim Kerr phoned me and said Bono wants you to release on radio today that he's making a bid for Celtic I said there's no fucking chance Bono's making a bid for Jim said he is I'm putting a bid in with him I said Bono he knows nothing about football he said that doesn't matter does it what a great story and I sure I fucking bounced into your head I can officially tell you that Paul Hewson is going to be making it off and I went, who the fuck's Paul Hewson?

1:53:18So yeah, no, Bono would be there. I would have to take Jeff in because I just, a man who has that much passion and love for football is always a key ingredient for me. I just think, you know, and I love chatting with him, but I like picking little holes in him and he likes doing the same with me. Alex Ferguson would be in there. Just again, because of the understanding, he's got a great wit about him, but he's got a real cunningness about him, Fergie. I'm not a Man United fan, but I used to follow Manchester United when I was at Sky, when they won the European Cup or Champions League in 1999. And we used to go to all the old draft world games and some away games.

1:54:06And he would always come up to his box, and he had two boxes. He had one for his personal friends, and then he had one for another group of ex-players, or other guys that he knew. And he used to always shout, and Charlie, open the red wine. I'll be in in five minutes. So I used to be the bottle opener for Fergie. So he would be there. And the ultimate one that has to be there, a head honcho at the table is the King. King Kerry has to be there. He's still my hero. I think he's absolutely hilarious. I just find him so funny. People find him cutting dry. Hard to get into his company. I find the absolutely opposite.

1:54:41And to be, what is he now? I think he's 76, 77. I'm coming up 65. And when I meet him, I still get shivers. I still, I'm excited. And I try and get through it. And he still calls me a wee man, although I'm about four inches bigger than him. But I just love him in it. I see, obviously, he'd been getting some treatment there and I watched him come on to Anfield the other week and he didn't look. But my God, he thought he was an oasis. You see his hair? He thought he was all trendy and all that stuff. but he would be the head town show at the table he would be the governor what a line up right Charlie thanks very much for that thank you guys I enjoyed it

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