Dave Jones | False Allegations

44:58And I thought, oh my God. But he was brilliant. And he went on to play for Southampton as well in the premiership. Was that Chris Marsden you on about? Mazza was, yeah, Mazza was. The chairman at Notts County at the time, he was a legend. I can't remember his name, but he was a legend. Been there years and years. And Mazza was renting his house. And when I signed him, Mazza stole all the lead off his roof. Sold it.

45:32and when he phoned me up the chairman to tell me that all the lead had gone off where's his lead gone and I pulled Mazza in he said that's because he sold me yeah but I've signed you know sold it at least he sold it and didn't just discard it he was brilliant you know what I mean Mazza was I don't think when Mazza played in the premiership at Southampton When I signed him at Southampton, everybody said he wasn't a good player. Listen, Hoddle played him, made him captain. He was a top, top player. We had another player, Luis Cavaco, from Portugal. We went and played in the Portugal game pre-season.

46:18And I saw him and I thought, Jesus Christ, I'm going to sign him. And unfortunately, he broke his leg and had a bad ankle leg break. all the top clubs were looking at him so you know even going on travels I was always looking for a player I used to I used to go to Portugal on pre-season and you would have done that with us I used to play a mix of all the players that had been released from the clubs so I could have a look at maybe what's there I'd go over to Paris for all the trials the players had been released by all the French clubs so I was prepared to go everywhere didn't matter where I would go and see a player yeah Southampton I'd get the flight after the game go over to Belgium, watch the game on a Sunday, get the flight back early Monday morning, be in training.

47:04That's how I got Olyph and Johnny. What a fucking machine he were, by the way, Shea. We had an argument in the Cardiff dressing room with Bellas. Bellas swore at him. You know how big Shea was. Gentle giants. Walked up, walked over to him. I said Mr Bellamy don't you swear at me because I'll fucking kill you and then he just walked back and everyone was laughing thinking that's not shit but it took a lot for him to get up but he was he was top bloke yeah top top bloke and again I didn't go across to see him I went to see someone else did you know a big club was going to come in for you at Stockport with the cup run with the promotion and what have you?

47:56No. We got promoted and on the way back because we won at Chesterfield. We won 1-0 and we were up. I think it was two games to go or something like that. So we decided to have a pub crawl across the top from Chesterfield. So we stopped at every pub that we could. We'd have a beer there or two and then we'd get on the next run and it could only be 10 yards next and we'd stop the bus and they'd all get out. So we had a little pub crawl on our way back to celebrate. And when we got to the hotel, back to the ground, I was in no fit state of drive. So me and Saint stayed in the office and we slept on the two couches I had.

48:38So we slept there and afterwards, the following morning, Brendan, the chairman, Brendan Elwood, came in and he's got two envelopes and he's cock-a-hoop. We've got promoted, there's more money, everything else long time she's been in or ever been in you know the championship don't know but he's handed us the two contracts and I've opened up the contract but what he's done he's given me Saints and Saints got mine and Saints go give me a pen and he wanted us and the chairman and he's trying to pull it and Saints go no no sign it now I'll sign mine I looked at my contract and I knew what Danny was on before and he'd offered me the same as what Danny used to be on and I said to him chairman I can't sign this and he said what you want I said I don't know he only got promoted last night I didn't tell him I'd been up with the missus for a week planning you know and everything else and he said look come and have breakfast same went you like coming he went no you stay there so I went and he said tell me what you want I said I don't know I haven't thought about it I knew what I wanted because I'd been discussing it so I'll give a figure I'll say£100 just say£100 and he went done and I went what done he went yeah done and he honest to God he took out a piece of A4 paper and he started writing I, Brendan Elwood chairman of Stockport County promise to give David Jones blah blah blah blah and I went so have I asked for more as I got it he went no he'd have asked for less I'd have been disappointed and he signed it so I went home told the wife we were all happy we were going off to Spain and we're in Spain in Majorca I think somewhere like that Alan Irvine's there I knew from Everton and everything else and we're having a good laugh and then next thing the phone goes and it's Jonathan Barnett from Stella who's Les Sealy who's my best mate I was with and John said to me, Southampton, on the phone.

50:52And we'd beaten Southampton in the quarterfinals and I went, excuse the language. I went, who the fuck's he wants? Tell him he's not getting anyone. The two things, Dave, one, he wants you and two, we're on the intercom.

51:09So I said, oh, shit. So I said, oh, chairman, Rupert Lowe. So he said, look, I was impressed with you this season and the way you played against us and everything else. Would you come and speak to us? So my wife was used to me going on holiday or going places and coming back early because I was going to watch a player or something. So I said, where are you going? And I went, I'm going to see my football club premiership. I didn't tell him who it was. so I flew back over I phoned my mate asked him could I use his car he just bought a brand new XJS Jaguar green gold trims everything else he left the car at the Manchester airport for me I picked it up drove down to the Cotswolds organised my contract with Rupert then he said to me I can see the type of car you've got so we'll get you something like that I had the probe remember a Ford Probe sponsored so I said that'll do yeah so I went look I just one thing I said Brendan's treated me you know properly from day one I'd like you to phone him and say that you want me and everything else and he said that's fine so I flew back got a phone call off Brendan and he went Dave we've had Southampton on so I went through the normal you know really who's yeah that's who they want you know they want you Dave everything else he said tell him to fuck off they're not having anyone he said I don't want you to go and I said right he said whatever he's offered I'll match and I went it's not about the money it's about going in the premiership Brendan and he went oh thank fuck for that he said I couldn't have afforded you anyway

53:12he said they're going to pay up your three year contract and Saints he said and I believe you want to take two players which was Paul Jones and Lee Todd and I went yeah and he went oh he said you've got to go there and I went I know I know I said I just wanted to know that they had already spoken to me he said I know that I know it all works he said you go with my blessing I told Alan and he went, I'm going to get a bet on. So my son rang up, oh, get a bet on. I said, you can't, you're not allowed to do it. You know, where are you going? I can't tell you I'm going to Southampton. You can't get a bet on.

53:52So the following day, headlines, paper, Southampton go for David Platt. And my son's going, yeah, you have to put a loan. don't worry about it they've got the right David they've just got the wrong saying it was wrong so I went and I turned up Sui had been in charge the season before it all went wrong for him he walked away from the club after two or three games to go you were saying Su Ness was in did you kind of work out when you had that I mean I've never played under him but Su Ness will rule with an iron fist so you can kind of take more of a lay-back approach and get the players on the side that way?

54:37Because there's some big characters at this point, aren't they? Yeah, I remember Brett saying to me, Brett Angel saying to me, you know, it's going to be different. I said, in what way? And he said to me, you know, Brett said, you've got to be a little bit milder or a little bit tougher. Why can't I just be myself? Yeah. You remember your first test? Yeah. Car park. The group, CESA, Southampton Independent Supporters Association. if I don't pick La God we'll have you out quicker than we had the other fella out okay have you ever seen a double decker bus full of scousers come down you're threatening me you're threatening me I said I might be laid back and quiet but no don't threaten me I put Tiz's sub and the fan next to me in the dugout was yelling at me get La God on Jones get Lagarde on Jones you know he's the only player and blah blah blah and Tiz wasn't playing well he'd admit that himself but he was out warming up get him on Jones get him on and I'm thinking I ain't fucking putting him on fucking gonna dig and we scored and it just sort of calmed down following game I played him same fella get that fat bastard off Jones and I'm like you can fuck off I'm staying on and then Tiz wouldn't score too So it's like, no, it's part and part.

56:04But no, I went into the club dealing with the same reason I went into every club. What can I change? What can I keep? Did you sign Carlton? Carlton, I brought Carlton in because of his experience. Carlton covers every blade of grass because that's where his first touch takes him. It's everywhere. But he was brilliant. And then I signed Erste. you know what a pair they were and Hirstie had never played if you look at his record I don't think he'd ever completed 10 games on the trot in a season he went 20 odd plus banging in goals with Egil Ostenstad it was crazy and then what did he do he jumped on the back of a moped with David Batty and tore all his calf muscle in the pre-season and finished him and he just had the best season of his life them two were right pair of characters.

57:01Good for the dressing room. That was a good thing, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember him and Carlton and Tiz having an argument, you know, over who's got the most caps. And Carlton's response was, how much do you earn? It was great. Different mentalities. Yeah. And we had Father Andrew, who used to come in and be like the pastor of the football club and everything else. I remember having breakfast and he was talking to all the scholars about, you know, drink and drugs and women, you know, and everything else. And he turned to Carton and said, you know, isn't that right, Carton? And Carton went, I ain't done me too bad.

57:45And they asked me to go, they were going to races, you know, and I said, I'm a training. He said, no, can we go to races? I said, well, yeah, but we won't finish till like 12 o 'clock. It's how you get changed. I mean, that'll be the last race. Next thing, it's like an helicopter coming in. They booked a helicopter.

58:09It's... But were you happy? Like, some managers wouldn't have that. Do you know what I mean? Were you happy that... Why change? If they're performing, if they're not performing, then you've got a problem. Yeah. You have got to change it.

58:25Just a quick message to say a huge thank you to O 'Neill's who are sponsoring us for their third series. We're here at one of the flagship stores, we're going to go in and have a look and see what it's all about. All of the stuff is locally manufactured, we've got factories in Northern and Republic of Ireland. It just allows for premium quality, quick delivery, all custom team kits. It's not only from the big dogs at the top, grassroots football all the way up. Like you said Chris, the quality is fantastic. O 'Neill's themselves have been brilliant for us to work for, haven't they? Yeah, I mean the lads who are we sponsoring, me personally from here, they absolutely buzz off it.

59:12You can see our kits here. Oh aye, I've seen that, I would buy that. Did you? Yeah. It's not just because it's hard, I just think it's a really nice stretch. Go from... He's knocked his head off. He's knocked his head off. And don't forget the link is in the description. You can sort your own team out, sort your grassroots team out, and get one of these beauties. Link's in the description for both of them. Massive thanks to O 'Neill's. Head loss.

59:43Did you get an offer for a Malefax building society after the... Yeah, Kevin Davis. Kevin Davis, Neil. I went down to... Suey had signed Kevin the week before I took over, I think. And Kevin played for Chesterfield against us at Stockport and all that. So I knew what he was. I knew he was a big, strong player and everything else. And he had a great season. The first season I went, I won Manage of the Year for Southampton and everything else. And it was brilliant. And Kevin played really well, scoring goals with Egel. and I got an offer after the game against Blackburn off the manager and he offered us five million after the game.

1:00:27He destroyed Blackburn on that night and I said, look, I can't sell him for five million. That's just, you know, it's me leading goal scorer. So he said, you're in the office tomorrow. So we've got a board meeting tomorrow. He said, OK, I'll phone you. All right. So I was in the boardroom. I told them that we'd had this offer and they paid£250 ,000 for them. So Roy rang me up. He offered me£7.5 million and I asked him to throw James Beattie in. I don't even think Roy knew who James Beattie was. He played with my grandson at Blackburn so I don't even think he knew who he was. So he said, yeah, we'll do it.

1:01:09And then I said, OK. Went to the board, take£7.5 million and BT and he all went, oh yeah. But to be fair to the board, if I'd have said no, we're not going to sell him, they wouldn't have sold him. No. And I just thought it was a ridiculous deal, seven and a half million. What could I do with that? With other players, even though Kevin was a good player, I thought we could get other players in, strengthen the team all the way around. It's good business. And did that happen? Did you get that money? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and then as I said we had ASD and Eggl Austin started and then 18 months later I got a phone call off Blackburn wanting to sign wanting to sign Eggl Eggl was contract was up at the end of the year I said will you do a swap for Kevin Davis I'm going back for nothing and then I got a phone call off the Halifax Billing Society I didn't run off him here more and the guy said I want to give you the job and I was just like a wine waiting for Jeremy Beedle if everyone remembers him jumping out and he went no he said because anyone who can get seven and a half million for something and then 18 months later get it back for nothing he said I'm working for the Alifax Bills he's just a local branch taking the mickey out of me and then Kevin come back and was brilliant I just want to speak about I've just been reading it then it's horrific the abuse allegations that you went through.

1:02:42I mean, where were you when you first got the call? Well, we were on holiday. I think we were in America at the time. I think it was America. And we'd just got noticed that my brother-in-law had been killed on the railway. He'd been decapitated. He was a workman on the railway. It was a big case. And he'd been working on the railway and the train had come, shouldn't have been on the line, and killed him and everything else. so we were coming back for the funeral and then my secretary rang me at um on the way back and said look we've had um the police on from merseyside i want to speak to you about uh historical abuse and the places i worked at so this is a social worker yeah so i said fine no problem I was in house one so I spoke to the police when I got back said I was coming up to Liverpool because my brother-in-law funeral and they just said to me yeah that's great we just need you to come in a couple of questions and then you'll be off you know because you work some of the people I'd worked with and you had been accused as well so my wife said to me something don't smell right here.

1:03:58I said, no, no, I'm just going to go in and, you know, say, have I seen anything? No. If I had, I would have reported it, so I didn't see anything. And then when I got there, they asked why I was with my wife, and I said, it's just driven me here, like, so we're going to go shopping or something like that, you know, in town. And he went, no, we're charging you. And I couldn't believe it. And then I said, they wanted to interview me, and I said, do I need a lawyer? They said, yeah. So the only lawyer I knew was the fellow who'd done my house. I didn't even know. So I was in complete shock. And then he came in and the first thing he said to me was, I'm a Liverpool supporter.

1:04:40Oh, fucking great. That's a good start then, isn't it? You know, and they hit me with things and I just thought, no, this is not right. And I phoned Jonathan Barnett and Stella and they put me in touch with someone in London and I spoke to them. And it was just a whirlwind. I didn't know what was going on. And then the gentleman that had set up the programme was a guy called Ray Wire, who's passed away now. I got friendly with him because the police, people in the police were saying, go and see this guy, because he sets up the investigations and everything else. So I went down to Milton Keynes with my wife and I didn't want to go in, come out, go in, come out.

1:05:29And my wife said, look, just speak to him. So I went in and he said to my wife, look, I'm going to speak to him on his own. I went in, going to video it. Is there a problem? I went, no. He said, I'm going to ask you some questions. I said, fine. And he asked me the first, the first question he asked me was, what's my fantasy? And I said, I'd love to be England manager, live in the Malfi Coast somewhere have a boat all that he said I ain't talking about what your fantasy is in life or whatever I'm talking about sexual fantasy and I went well you never asked that he asked me what my fantasy was and that was a trigger point and then he opened the door and he invited my wife in and he said to my wife my wife was like what's going on what's going on and he said no not right something doesn't smell right here erm and then all hell broke loose then.

1:06:25The police said that they weren't going to tell anyone and they were going to make it anonymous, but then they put in the paper, yes, we've arrested a guy from Southampton who was in football, age such and such, black hair, 5 '11". Oh, I just couldn't give my name out. And then it just snowballed from there. They found things out that weren't true and everything else, but my solicitor said you've got to get to the end Dave because you can't have people saying because he's a football manager and he pays this and got the best lawyers and everything else people used to say oh you got away with it no I never did anything so I never got away with anything and then I had to go to the end football was my saviour because the dressing room when I got charged when I went back to the dressing room the players had got a white t-shirt with arrows on and I set the handcuffs over the peg for me.

1:07:23So there... Which helps, doesn't it? Humour, yeah. You know, was all part of it. And I remember going to Old Trafford and Sir Alex said to me, first off I asked him, what do I call you now? You've just been made a say. What do I call you? And he went, hmm.

1:07:50sir and he said i want to walk out with you dave i said no i'm all right and i walk out on my own he said no he said i want to walk out with you i want i want to walk out with you to show the world that i believe this is just a load of baloney so i walked out with him at old trafford scouser evertonian going back to old trafford not advisable uh and i got a standing ovation and I'm not an emotional person but inside my wife was in the crowd and everything else and my family and he was brilliant and then I don't know if you remember the goal Tiz scored from first to the halfway line went through the Polish keeper's legs and we drew the game 2-2 and as I walked up to Sir Alex's hand he went you can fucking walk back on your own now

1:08:44and then the home game we had Portsmouth and I was at Derby Portsmouth or Derby I was at Derby and Jim Smith said I wouldn't want to walk out with you I said Jim you don't have to walk out with me honest I'm big enough it's my home crowd if they're going to have a go at me they'll have a go at me I said I'd rather do it and Rixie was his assistant and said Dave I'll walk out with you I said will you fuck you ain't walking out with me mate that'd be some fucking photograph and it was like i appreciate that because that was the football humour that was it was in and i just had to go through it how long did it hang over you about 18 months in total i think did Southam suspend you?

1:09:43yeah put me on garden leave and how long was that for? well I went to the FA and I I fought it I wanted them to release me I just I just felt they were waiting for 12 people to decide my future and they knew everything that was going on they had all the documentation they knew it was all a scam but Rupert decided and I've spoke to Rupert since if it had been truthful with me I would have accepted it but it was mainly because of the sponsors and we sorted it you know where we sorted it because it is lawyer it was a woman she kept going on I've got this black book with all these players that belongs to because I told Rupert I had a black book with all these players from around the world and they wanted it well I didn't have a black book it was all up here like and I was in the toilet and Rupert was in the toilet and we were having to pee and I said to him what are you doing?

1:10:40Just let me go. And we sorted it out in the toilet. And when we went back upstairs, said to his lawyer, sorted, you don't need to be here now. And she's going, what? I said, sorted, we're at the best place, as in the toilet. This is a bit of a private joke this day, but in or out. Yeah. And in the end, Rupert, he paid us my contract up. And then the day that the judge threw her out, I had a phone call off Barnsley chairman want to see you tomorrow want you to be our manager so I went to see him and I swore I said to the chairman of Barnsley I'm going to do three things TV, radio and paper I'm going to talk about it once and that's it I just want to get home back with my life I'm driving back down to Southampton and the chairman of Everton rang me Bill Kenwright offering support and everything else.

1:11:41Now, far from Liverpool to Southampton, I think he stayed on the phone until I got home, all the way down. And I loved Bill. And I thought, you know, he'd offered me the Everton job once, but I'd just gone to Southampton and I said, I can't leave Southampton. I've only been here three or four months. Why don't I leave Southampton and go, you know, I can't do that. And then Barnsley, I went up to Barnsley. the chairman the old chairman there John Dennis locked me in his kitchen it's not nice being hijacked is it it's not nice yeah tables turned wouldn't let me go until I signed a contract and I told him look I've got to go to Norwich because Delia had been on and I'd promised Delia I'd go down so this was over the Christmas period so I spoke to John he offered me a contract to sign for him I said look I'll give you the answer tomorrow after I've spoken to Norwich so we went to Norwich snowing said to the wife look don't eat anything because probably we're going to Delia's house I'm gonna get a big slap up meal and everything else I don't we got a mince pie and a cup of tea like in oh Delia contracts off no matter what you're off me Delia I couldn't understand why they wanted my wife to go but they wanted to see my wife so I asked my wife moving you know to that part of the world, would she be happy?

1:13:08And then we left. They said they'd phone me up, let me know if I'd been offered the job. Don't even think I'll go off the drive. And they phoned me up and offered me the job. And then Jez Moxie phoned me halfway home. I said, could I go to London and meet the chairman? Meet the board, not meet the chairman, meet the board. I said, when? He said, tomorrow. So I said to my wife, I'll turn the car around. We went to London instead of Southampton. Got in. We'd had some clothes in the car anyway. I went to Knightsbridge, to the house where I'd been told to go, knocking on the door. A little Iranian woman answered.

1:13:48I thought it was a servant or something like that. I didn't know what I was talking about. They gave me the wrong address. It was next door.

1:13:57So when I spoke to them, they asked me could I stay overnight and go and meet the chairman the following day. at the Churchill Hotel in London. So I went to see Sir Jack, and he offered me the job. And then I rang Norwich, I had to tell Delia, and then I rang John Dennis. Well, he rang me on the way home and said, what have you decided, Dave? And he went, you don't want to go to Norwich. It's a fucking long way down there, son, he said. It's cold, it's wet. He said, come to Barnsley. And I said, look, I'm going to decide, Wolves. And he went, no competition then, you've got to go to Wolves. And I went to Wolves.

1:14:40Joking apart there, it must have meant the world to you, just getting these offers, you know, after everything that you've been through. That shit, the shit must have been a horrible time, regardless. Well, in football, I don't know how many managers I spoke to, but football was my sanity, believe it or not. Normally send you the other way, but football kept me going because I thought if people that knew me believed I'd done these things, then that would have killed me. But the support I got, and I think my wife spent a fortune on stamps because she replied to everybody. I never replied to one person.

1:15:19And the reason I didn't do that is because I didn't know these people. I didn't know whether they'd done it or hadn't done it. So I'd made a decision I wasn't going to. And he wanted me to join groups because there was lots of other people had been accused that I'm sure I hadn't done anything, but I didn't know that. I just know when I saw my bank balance that there was a lot of money going out on stamps that my wife would thank to everybody just for their support. But you get the odd one and everything else. I remember going to Stoke and I got a load of abuse. Burnley, I got abuse. Stoke was the best because in my interview afterwards I'd called the crowd a load of interbreeds and I got fined for that then we played them in the cup the same season and I got asked the same question so I said the family stand

1:16:17it's just my humour it's how I survived it so now it was like you said the football kind of save in that situation, but it can be harsh as well from the stands. Oh, yeah. You don't need facts from the stands. You just cherry pick. No, but you've got to remember, they didn't know me. If someone said it that knew me, that would have been the knife into my heart more than anything. And I had my, you know, I had four children. I had little ones. And the police had never came round to the house. never came to check computers or whatever until my wife did an interview in the was either the guardian or the telegraph she did an interview saying no one's ever been around the house yeah and you don't just be one and then turn off and then that's it you want for one year there's over a one-year pay just doesn't happen you know so next thing the police are calling at my house with social services and want to speak to my children so yeah you can speak to three of them We ain't speaking to the little one.

1:17:22They know nothing. We protected them. They know nothing. What was the overall? Was it just a group that just completely fabricated looking for money? Because at the time, people got money. And of course, I was a big fish. Yeah. And a lot of people said to me, if they get you, this is what they used to say, if you go down, we've all got no chance. Because I had the funds. Yeah. you think you have the funds, you know, it's nearly a million pounds. And when they say you get all the court costs back, they're going to give you the lowest price. But I would have sold everything. Me and my wife would have sold everything.

1:18:04The law says that your innocence is proven guilty. No. You're guilty until you prove your innocence. And it's not the police who prove it. You've got to do it. Yeah. But then put on trial through the media as well. And then in the court, the CPS lady was bandblasted by the judge for coaching the person what to say. You know, so the judge was fuming. And he said to me, he said to my lawyer, my lawyer come to see me when it all kicked off and they bandblasted the CPS and the police and everything else for even bringing the case to it. and then my solicitor comes to see me and said, the judge wants to know what he wants him to say.

1:18:55I said, I'm not a judge. Just say what he thinks. And that's what my book title was, No Smoke, No Fire. And that's what he said. He said that, you know, people might think there's no smoke or fire, but in this case, there was never a fire. Can you remember the relief? obviously you know you've done nothing wrong but until you hear that right it's all done the relief must have been like unbelievable yeah because my wife my it's in the book my daughter wrote a letter to me I never saw the letter and but she wrote me a letter in the book I saw it afterwards and everything else but my wife and family were right behind me all the way and it must have been hell for them because they were going to games and there and all that.

1:19:48My wife punched someone in the stand because they were abusing me with the children. So she smacked them one. And then afterwards, she couldn't believe that he'd come up to me to ask for my autograph after the game. Things like that. Relief. When the judge kicked everybody out the courtroom, I didn't know what was going on. And they took me out the room and the solicitor saying, And listen, he said, I don't know what's going to happen, he said, but there's two things. He's either just going to chuck it out or he'll say retrial. No, no, no, no, it gets done today. No, no, I waited long enough. Go back and tell the judge, it gets done today.

1:20:31Was that a risky decision at that time? Was that a risky thing to say? No. Even though you knew? Not for me. But advice why? The people on the start, I didn't even know. I didn't even know who these people were. I couldn't even remember them. You know, it was, I wasn't even there half the time. It was just, they were looking, it was like a snowball, that's the best way to describe it. And when it started to roll down the hill, it gathered momentum where we had all the evidence to say this is not true. Yeah, you knew where you were. But I still had to go to court to prove it. Yeah. And I'm like, well, why?

1:21:09they could have made this decision 12 months earlier why did I have to wait so long and that's when they explained to me go through it get the decision and then nobody can come back at you and say oh because he's a premiership manager or whatever it's all there to see I can't describe it because there's always that tiny you're waiting for 12 people and you don't know whether 12 people judge was brilliant my lawyers were brilliant they knew they'd made a mistake they knew it was just it grew and we wanted the right answer so that's why they did it but no a lot of things that went on and everything else where you know you can't say or I couldn't write about because you know people saying sue the police sue the CPS I'd just done 18 months why did I want to go through all that again just clear it let me get on with my life that's all you needed there no smoke no fire yeah and to be fair Wolves fans were brilliant I came didn't get them promoted the first year which everybody was disappointed about I got blamed here we go again I've only been in a season I'm thinking why are they blaming me I'm building a team I did it the following year I ended Sir Jack the trophy on the pitch I went there I said three years I've done it in two and he went you should have done it and the club were brilliant because it was like you know they believed in you they trusted you I don't know what would have happened if it wasn't winning games but again it all went right for us and it was it was the right club probably to come to at that time because I think they were trying to rebuild the club and I was trying to rebuild my career so it just fell nicely for us I believe there was another disgruntled fan by the dugout, was there?

1:23:12Yeah, he was seasoned. I think we were second in the league, second or third in the league. We were flying. And he just kept abusing me all the time. And I asked him what his problem was and he said he pays my wages, so he's entitled to do it. So I went and bought a season ticket, paid for a season ticket, given the cash. And then I abused him and he said, you can't do that. I said, I can't have. I'll pay your money back. and him over there I think he was sitting next to him wasn't he you don't pay me fucking wages now he paid £350 a year and he thought he could abuse me and then when I asked him why he did it he said because it's all his frustration in the week he just venting he wasn't venting at you he was just venting at anybody yeah yeah he didn't give me my money back he kept my money disappointed who was the most the important player for you do you think in that promotion year well the two players that got us over the line because of their experience was Incy and Dennis when I went to see Incy he said I asked him what I wanted to call him because I knew he said call me governor I'll call you anything you want as long as you perform you can't ask the manager to call you governor I'm sorry so he might have been joking knowing Ince and it was his I went to see him in his place in Spain and I'm looking round and I remember there was a light bulb missing in the but I had the pot and I think he needs the money this fella got a light bulb in and I spoke to him and I said look we never went up last year because of the lack of experience that we had in the team we had quite a young side you know your nailers and your lescots and you know we did have a good side really really had a strong side and I said to him look I'd like you to come here and be captain lead the club everything else and he hummed and hard about it trying to play hard ball he said you know I can only train so you know fine okay I said train when you want but if you don't play well I'm telling you if you don't play well I don't play you Dennis was completely opposite Dennis never missed a day he's training because Dennis was, if I don't train and keep up with the young books, I'll lose my place.

1:25:42Totally different attitude. But Incy was playing the game because Incy always trained. He never missed any games. He always trained. He just wanted to feel, you know, important. Special. Yeah. But they were all special. And I had a hell of a side. You know, Newton on the wing, Mark Kennedy George Nandar George Nandar never got the credits he deserved George was unbelievable

1:26:12Going to have a very quick break gentlemen to bring a message from Saley What is Saley Chris? What is Saley but I'm glad you asked me John It's the eSIM that you just install on your phone get on the Saley app get the eSIM on your phone perfect for going abroad I know you've used it recently aren't you Chris? I used it in Portugal and I saved probably 10 times the amount that I would have paid for roaming, data roaming. Because it can be like an hidden bloody... Cost. Yeah, it's an hidden extra fuelity, innit? Wasn't relying on Wi-Fi. Yeah, just straight on the sailor. Which was a big thing. Ideal.

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1:27:30Which is important. Oh, is it? You don't want people, especially abroad, you don't want people getting into your bank details and stuff like that. It'd be a nightmare getting, contacting your bank and everything. Yeah, so all you need to do is download the Saley app in the App Store, scan the QR code or click on the link in the description. Using the code COSH, get 15 % off your first purchase. That will pay for itself in a day. Yeah. Yeah, kids. You get home, oh my God. What have you lot been doing? Yeah, exactly. It's happened to me many, many times. Yeah, cost price a bloody holiday. I'd hang my hat on it.

1:28:06You won't be disappointed. Scan the QR code, link in the description, download the silly app in the App Store. Kulkosh. Really forgot that then. Point. Point. What I never understood about the Wolves team of that generation or leading up to that is that obviously they were on the cusp for years of getting promoted, always just falling at the last hurdle. And then the investment came in and then after promotion, it seemed like there was no money at all. I mean, when I went and I spoke to Sir Jack and everything else, I told him, he asked me when we were going to get promoted. I said, give me three years.

1:28:46Because they had 39 pros when I went. And after two, I said, look, let me assess the squad and then I'll tell you what we need. And he went, good, right. I went to see him after two weeks and I had my chief scout and guy, a lad called George Foster, big old-fashioned centre-half, like, you know, training, come out in boots and shin pads on. He's one of the coaches. He's ready for war. And we sat for a couple of weeks and I went to see the chairman and I said, seven or nine. And he went, oh, I thought we needed more than that. I said, no, that's what you keep. Get rid of the rest. And how did the club get rid of him?

1:29:26Did they just tell him or did they pay him up? It actually works out cheaper to pay him up because then you haven't got national insurance to pay. So rather than look short term, yeah, it's going to cost a bit more money in the short term, but in the long term, it's going to be cheaper for you. And I think they had three players that weren't even in this country. They were injured and they were getting treated at home. Belgium and Holland. I couldn't understand that. what annoyed me the most was the first year I was there when I went we had a chance we were building but we had a chance and then I don't know what it was but ten games to go we got to a position where we had half a chance never won a game after that it was half the season and I found out they'd already booked their holiday at Christmas and no intentions of ever going up.

1:30:25So I thought, well, I'm not having any of them, get rid of them. And that's what I did. I got rid of them. Was it frustrating when you got promoted? Because you finished bottom that season. I went to see the board. It was ages after we got promoted and I had some really good players, good players to sign that I felt would keep us within the division at least. and when they told me I had three million I thought my daughter's getting married in June just give me it and I'll use this confetti because that's what I felt it was and Premier League budget three million yeah for players I thought a nought had dropped off somewhere but and then I wanted to replace people like Dennis and Incy when the chairman didn't agree with me and asked me why and I said because they're flawed and he said they've played for AC Milan at Man United why aren't they still playing for them he said what do you mean I said age they've done the job now let's get people in you know when you're building a team you build it to do it you don't when people when managers say I'm building for the future get there first and then build for the future but if you start thinking oh we're in the championship and I'll start building when we get to the get out the championship first get the team that's going to get you out and then do what you've got to do not do the way around that's what I felt I'm sure managers will disagree with that but that was my philosophy get there first and then when I went down to London I was fuming because it was two weeks after we got promoted I'm losing ground on getting the players I want and then when he said I had three million I just couldn't believe it it was heartbreaking for me and what I should have done the day that he told me I had three million I should have walked away I was just thinking that but my ego kicked in and we all have egos don't we I'll show him I'll show him I can do it and everything else and I should have walked away because my stock was high when he said to me you'd probably have got a lot more as well if I'd have been in when he said to me 3 million I'd have thought tell you what I'm not going to say I'll get sacked here I'll get my pay up but I'm still going to be in with a chance of getting a really good job I didn't get I don't think I really got sacked for the results at the end of the day I got sacked because I was probably at Loggerhead's with Sir Jack over it and I remember going to ask Rick Hayward when I went into the office are you sacking me or is your dad sacking me and Rick said, me dad and I went, yeah I'd sack me if I was going to inherit what you're going to inherit, I'd get rid of me I wouldn't upset my dad.

1:33:19And it was probably time for me to go because I wasn't going to get any money. You know, and I think it took, I don't know, how many years afterwards for him to go up, you know, back up. But it was a shame, really, because they had an opportunity. And I always remember sitting with Mick McCarthy because Mick took him up after me. And I always remember Mick saying to me that Jez Moxie and a couple of other directors said. Because Mick, when he got up, stayed up one year, I think. And he said to me that the board told him they learnt from the lesson when I was manager. You've got to spend money.

1:33:58What figure do you think you would have needed? I had£20 million in my head. That's what I had. The players I was bringing in was going to cost the club about£20 million. And I was bringing in some good players as well. Some top players. I mean, what year was this? In 2003. So there's still a hell of a lot of money in the Premier League back then. £20 million is not a lot of money, is it? It was for a club like us. I think I had five or six players. I had David James because McGolkie was being injured. I had Keown come in. But Keown had driven in the car to look at the training ground. and he looked at Leicester and he went to Leicester.

1:34:43I didn't get it because of the training ground. And I kept trying to get Sir Jack to build a training ground. And Sir Jack was, we trained on school pitches. We looked after the pitches, they're port-a-cabins. And I wanted him to build a training ground because they're attracted players. Sir Jack didn't believe in it. And then he did build it and named it after himself.

1:35:08so again you know he learnt a lesson that you know you've got the right facilities you know even when that's what I said when I was at Cardiff if you've got the facilities you attract players you know this is it training ground dog shit park oh hang on they've just got to clear that off before you can go Robbie Fowler Jimmy Floyd eating out of Paul Stein packed lunches for our lunch after trade and and they never complained. They did when I showed them it, like, what's that? You never told me that. Yeah, but. You know. We used to show them pictures of the training ground, you know, that was going to be.

1:35:47A big muffin. I remember Robbie saying to me, that's not the training ground. I said, yeah, that's what it's going to be. I think the gym was half the size of this room, a couple of bikes and a treadmill. And then when they built it and we moved to the training ground, it was in the hotel. and we had the whole use of the gym, which was brilliant, because their gym was phenomenal. It was. And they had an intake of about 50 % women, and all the men dropped off. Because they've got all these six-foot-four strapping ripped to cap training every day. Maybe not all ripped. I remember a guy saying to me, I feel embarrassed.

1:36:31But that's why you're in the gym, to get fit. Don't feel embarrassed. Incentives. But it was. Wolves was, I had a great time here. Because I live in the area, so I did have a good time. I just wish they'd have done what they said they were going to do when I signed. Build and grow. Because that's what I love doing. I love building. Go in, assess, build. Is that what you were hoping for when you joined Sheffield Wednesday? Yeah. and to be fair Milan I love Milan and Paul Aldridge they were brilliant Milan and Rick I think he lived in my house every morning half seven he'd go down to my house otherwise I thought he was having an affair with my missus because he was bored he'd go and take the dogs for a walk with my wife I loved him he was brilliant but he got offered phenomenal price for the club so he sold it he gets a lot of sick doesn't he Manderich but you got on well with him because he's got a bit of a bad name haven't he amongst fans and Milan yeah no as long as you're honest with him and straight the thing with Milan is he was always trying to whoever told him he had a good player you had to bring him in he had a goalkeeper you've got to sign him Dave my contacts are saying he's brilliant blah blah blah and he came up to see him.

1:38:01He's looking around the training ground. Where is he? He's there. Him there? Yeah. He's about five foot two. Goalkeeper. He's not very big, is he? No, but you said bring him in. He can't even like, you know, a five-a-side goal looks too big for him. And he was like, oh, no, get rid of him. And then the next one, oh, I've got to sign a forward for you. Bring him in. Where is he there? Oh, he's not very good. I know he's not very good. Just let me do. so you had to like cajole them you had to bring them in do it and that season I think Sheffield United made a big mistake they never replaced the centre forward Chad they needed to replace them and that was the catalyst and that's what I was saying that's what happened to me at Wolves and I learned from that once you get on a roll of winning and the other team and for some reason we kicked off they kicked off earlier than us virtually half the season when the running was coming like you know 10-12 games to go they were kicking off early they were having morning games so we knew what we had to do and you know they'd draw and I knew I had to win the game so and then we got on that roll and I think I was there for 22 games and we won 19 and drew the rest never lost a game it's phenomenal but you get on that treadmill and you keep going and going and going and I went to Brentford.

1:39:29Oh, God, we got battered. Mullard. And we won 1-0 in the last minute. Corner. It's got to go. You're thinking, it's our year. It's going to be our year. And they couldn't get over the line. And that reminded me of what happened at Wolves. We just couldn't get that win. We're getting draws, but not a win. And West Brom kept winning and winning and winning and winning. And they claw you in. On the managerial front, because I noticed while you were at Wednesday you got a two grand fine and a one game ban with Charlie Oakway, a bit of fisticuffs. Is there any managers that you enjoyed coming out up against?

1:40:12Yeah, Neil. Neil Warner, I was at Wolves, I told a fourth official if he said it one more time I was going to knock him out. And he said it, so... And then we went out of the beer afterwards because I love Neil to bits. Yeah. In 90 minutes, I hated him. But the majority of them were all fine. We're all trying to do the same thing. Why are you going to fall out? Yeah, you'd have a fight or whatever. There was nothing. The best one I've ever had was at Wolves. Best fight ever. That was with Neil's team, Sheffield United. We were winning half-time and Neil said to the centre forward, Pick a fight to try and upset you.

1:40:59Who did he pick on? Paul Butler. You go and pick on Lee Naylor or Alex. He doesn't go and pick on Paul Butler. And I don't know if you've ever been, well, you'd have been to the Molineux where the doors closed, the referee's room there, and then the doors couldn't be closed. Them doors got closed. Oh, some fight. Yeah, I think one of their players' heads went through the wall. It was everything else. Referee's banging on the door. the little kit man squeezed like a bar of soap he was throwing out you've got Blakey Lescott Butler all the big guys fighting knocking seven bells out of each other then everyone got in the room and the doors open the referee's going what's going on nothing there's holes in the wall blood all over the floor it was just Neil start a fight he said and you were like get the lads in and you're like fucking fair play lads no I thought we had better things to do but but deep down.

1:41:53You've got to get involved, haven't you? Yeah, deep down. No, I was proud of them. Yeah. One player kicked a hole in the door and half the team nearly battered them. It's our ground. You don't put holes in our walls and do it on your own ground, not ours. And I had to pop at them, but deep down, no, you know you've got them. They're behind you. And every club I've been at, probably Hartley Pearl at the end but every other club I've been at I got that feeling they'd run through brick walls for you watching sorry Dave watching the thing before you mentioned Hartley Pearl with a video of Jeff Stellan on his show what was the story there this is when you in charge of Hartley Pearl erm he reckons he was a Hartley Pearl fan he had the club at heart and everything else and club has a struggle for 20 years and probably when I went in I tried to change it too quickly didn't have the players to do that a lot of good pros there a lot of pros that could have done better I don't think Sterling understood all that I think he was acting like a fan I ain't got time of day for him I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire I'd just walk away from him got no time for him I think it was totally wrong in what he did I've never spoke about it until now it was all for show and I spoke to a lot of people afterwards that were really annoyed at him I don't think it was one person that agreed with him that I spoke to and I mean top players, top managers they just thought it was a disgrace

1:43:40but he doesn't mean anything to me because he spoke in the changing room when you're saying he thought because he was a fan he thought he had the right away of everywhere. I'm sure he's got his story, I'll always have mine, but he'd be phoning the chairman, why am I picking him? All this crap, it's nothing to do with him. Just support the club. Because just for some context on Soccer Saturday, did you lose that day, I imagine, and then he's really gone in, need to be. Well, it was all planned. It was planned because he's got the shirt underneath his suit and he takes his shirt off. So it was all preempted.

1:44:23Listen, he's got a show, but he's got a show to do what? Not to criticise other people. We could all criticise him when he was mumbling or didn't do this or do that. But what's the point? Do you know what? I'm bigger than that. Put it this way, if we were in the desert and I drove past him, I wouldn't pick him up. It would be a big desert as well. you're not getting hijacked go and fight for yourself and then I'd open my t-shirt and call on me no I'm better than that I hope I'm better than that I would never think of doing that and listen I fell out with many a player many a manager many director I'll bet you now you go and find I'll give you money if you go and find an article where I've criticised the club or a player.

1:45:20Don't gain anything from it. You mentioned goalkeepers before. Have you got any stories on Bywater? Yeah, he's brilliant. Talking lunatic. Yeah, I gathered that when I signed him. He told me one day, I don't know what it was, I don't know what it was, 50 tonnes of sand. He was telling me he'd delivered to lay on his garden. Why are you telling me that? Just out the blue. Yeah, but he was, listen, again, he did brilliant for us. He reminded me of my best mate who's passed away, Les Seeley. Les Seeley was just a bag of butterflies. He was definitely away with the fairies, Les. Secondhand car salesman, but brilliant.

1:46:11And a Cockney and a Scouser getting on, very unusual. but he was my best mate and he was he was similar by water too and it's no coincidence that Les trained him as well because he was he was they were just I think all goalkeepers are a bagger the loonies throw their head in the balls there the lunatics they have to have something that's just not quite right I remember being at Stockport when I had Paul Jones and we had a penalty shootout against Crewe. It was the last penalty we scored, it was through. And Jonah picked the ball up and everyone was saying to me, Jonah's got the ball, huh? I'm going to take it off him, size of him.

1:46:57You go and tell him, smash it in the top quarter. You know, he was the one who wanted to take it. No one else wanted to take it. They're just, they're a different breed. And I don't pretend to be a goalkeeping coach. my remit for them is stop it from going in the net and I tell you what I've had some top top goalkeepers but they know what they're doing you know I wouldn't know so if you don't know something get the best person to work with Terry Burton Terry Burton was fantastic for me he was brilliant number two he got asked when we got to the cup final we must have so much in common and Terry and his normal I don't even know Terry yeah Terry when they were in our side yeah Terry Terry went he looked at her and he went nothing and she went nothing he went no he said he said I've got a little car he's got a big car he said I walk the dog he rides his horse he plays golf I read the book and he went a list of everything and I think Gabby was like oh Jesus Christ and as she got up I said oh thank you Terry as you got up oh sorry Gab one thing she said what's that he said football got football in common he said yeah but he was we used to say Terry was pigeonholed because Sue's wife used to phone me up and have a right go or if I phoned a house she'd have a right go at me because he'd lock himself away and plan the next days.

1:48:38Because after training, I'd say, right, tomorrow we'll work on defence. So Terry would go home and work on the training. And we'd come in in the morning, we'd go through it all, yeah, what we're going to do and everything else. And she used to go mad because he'd lock himself in his office all night and train. And I used to say, right, we used to get him. So he'd come in and I'd go, we're not doing that today, tell. We've got to go strikers. and Terry cottoned on to this. I always remember, and he went there one day, he goes, I phoned his house here where they'd left and Sue said, oh, he's been up all night.

1:49:15He's been doing defence, midfield, attacking, this, that, that. So we got in the morning and he went, right, he went there. He went there, you fucker. And he put the thing on. I've got defending, midfield and attacking. I went, no. Tell you what, we'll go down the cafe and have a bacon butchie. he just walked out the team but he was brilliant for me what about you just speaking to you if you sense that you've still got a lot to give you there's an enthusiasm there for the game i want to go back in it's very difficult uh i'd love to manage if the right thing come along because i still think i've got plenty of stuff in me i'd love to be a sport nor technical director it because I think I've got the experience but it's so difficult getting back in experience seems to be a dirty word in football at the moment no one seems to want it they want young sort of these words in it these words that they say in the six these new words yeah and all that if you think if you think back I did a seminar not so long ago and it was all young coaches and they called us old school and I said what does that mean I never understood what that means and I'm sure I used it the term when I was a younger coach coming through but what does it actually mean I said does it mean knowledgeable or experienced and the fella said to me oh you know in today's game we play five did that in the 60s used to be called wingbacks then you had three centre-halves and you had your wingbacks then in the 70s they went to flat back four then in the 80s and a lot of people won't know this they went to Libro sweeper back and about everyone went to that then in the 90s they went to Libro to holding midfield player put the player in front and now what have you got false number 9 what the fuck's a false number 9 number 8 number 10 it's just it's words It's trying to invent the wheel.

1:51:29The wheel's still around. It's what you put in it. And the game evolves. Every day it evolves. And people think that they've got the magic formula. I'm not saying you've still got 11 players, balls the same size, goals there. You've got the better players, you'll have the better team. So I do. I'd love to go back in. I feel I've still got the passion. Desperate to go in. wife fed up with me lost me out because if you look at my record everywhere I've gone I've won something or achieved something or left the club in a far better position even when you look at Artipool you're left in a far better position the training ground the proper changing facilities change the ground around so as long as you go you go somewhere and you leave a legacy and I'd like to think I've left a legacy everywhere I've been so you know if there's anyone there that wants to take a punt yeah I'd do it your CV yeah three three promotions two cup finals four successful hijackings yeah get that centre all the clubs oh by the way two priests hi yeah I've got two ex-players that have turned to priesthood Mulrine yeah and the other one was he's in Nigeria he was a foreign player I had yeah so you're literally doing the Lord's work yeah no you got not many minds you can say you've got two priests on the books I've got that on the list as well no listen I'm pleased and you know people like Jeff and everybody else who've turned everything around and Alex Ray and you know they've turned everything around it's brilliant there's nothing better than helping someone do that and winning things as well because there's no better feeling is that you win something there's not a better feeling and you look at Donald Trump you know the other day I wouldn't go off the stage I'd want to be part of that big Chelsea fan now innit I'd want to be part of that jump up and down he just added a super cup to his resume yeah I told you I'd win the cup yeah you would wouldn't you why would you not want to join in and all that adulation and everything else it's a good feeling you know I remember being in a restaurant once and someone said to me shit manager that's something you'll never ever know about that's right though isn't it yeah you'll never know what it's like to be a shit manager I said it's just football's all about opinions at the end of the day and I have been lucky in my career because wherever I've gone I've done something well cheers Dave really appreciate your time thanks very much enjoyed it would you sign us again as you are now as I was then yeah I probably would John because at the time you know you fitted the criteria that I wanted that's not the kit no

1:54:40you've also got to look at yourself and say did I do everything to get in the team I'll be honest with you my attitude we'll go down there we'll get promoted my wages will double and I'm not going to play in the Prem so I'll just come on low and up north I think that's what I think that's why I probably didn't kick off as much as what I normally would that would be honestly that would be my thought process You must self-believe John I know what a toss putt you was I didn't try I were trying I was just shit And I wouldn't say I said to you before I actually thought you'd had a go at me but I found out it was someone else so I was ready for you I had all the hands couldn't get a kit for you couldn't do that but when I look back I think I don't remember having I never kicked off no I never kicked off kicked off the year after with fucking Malky but Malky was left with a very very good team and money in the bank as well it's not easy you've got to get there and then start to build a foundation that's strong and then find the biggest thing in the football club is your recruitment and I had good people around me that if I went look I want to send a forward give me a three give me three list you know first, second, third I forget what you were

1:56:14we have to go with that you were probably first but I can't let you go out this room and be gutted. But no, I should say, just give me three people that I can go and look at and see and whether they fit in. From what I can remember, you fitted what I wanted at the time. You were different. You know, you ain't going to run the channels. You ain't going to do this. But, you know, there's a big machine up there that's going to cause havoc and I had players around you that could deliver whatever we wanted. So not everybody's going to be the same. And as I said, Jay Bothroy was a prime example. Was he easy to work with?

1:56:55Yeah. Just tell him a few lies. I like that we've finished with John fishing for a compliment and it's come back with a compliment for Jay Bothroy. That's perfect. No, listen. Perfect. Listen, John's... That's all. But it's new now. He could probably play five a side now. But no. the only thing I will say is that I did enjoy working with you cheers Dave cheers Dave really appreciate it I think it was quite mild that I got away with a lot of stuff Dave