Dean Holdsworth | Kidnapped By Sam Hamman

28:00I didn't want to be a squad player at Tottenham. And then Sam Haman, once you met Sam Haman and I met him, we just become like family. Honestly, the man's crazy but brilliant. It didn't get off to the best of starts, did it? Did you go for the talks? Oh, Christ, yeah. So I met him at his house in Regent's Park. So I walk in and he starts, as he does, and he knows he does, he starts waffling on about family and the Bible and fish and wine and all this stuff. Two little fishes, five little bread. That's it. Well, he kept going on about this. And I'm going, no, it's this bloke. And all I could think of was he looked like Penfold.

28:49So that was his nickname after. So he said to me, right, there's the offer. And I said, I'm not signing it. I'm going to go home and think about it. And I've got to speak to a couple of other clubs. And he's like, sign the contract. And I said, no, I'm not signing the contract. Like, I'll need to speak about this. Think about it. I've never been in the contract negotiation. I've never seen it first deal, do they? So I went, I'm going to go. He went, wait there. He got up, walked through his lounge door, walked through it, locked the door. And I had a mobile then, and he rung me, and he said, are you signing it?

29:26And he go, kisakul shalamuta, which is son of a bitch in Lebanese. I'll never forget to say it fair words. And he goes, are you signing it? And he looked out the window, and he's in his car, and he drove off. So did you know what that meant at the time? No, no. So have you got to look it up after? I couldn't spell it, let alone say it. And there's years of listening to that. But he drove off and I'm in his lounge. And I'm like, what am I going to do now? So I ring Eric, he's no answer. And I thought, I've been kidnapped. I'm thinking. I've been kidnapped. Danger wank. I'll show you some. Yeah, there's lots of things going on.

30:16And about 45 minutes later, I can hear a rustle on the door and the keys go around. And a lady walks in. So I said, hi. She said, hi. What are you doing? I said, I have been kidnapped. Is he your husband? Her name was Nardo. She said, lovely lady. And she went, yes, Sam. I went, I've got to get out of the house. I must get out of the house. And I said, no, I don't think I'm going to come back. So I literally went down the stairs, got through the door, and I remember walking around to Camden Town, and I'm like, what's just happened to me? Eric rung me, went, what's happening? And I told him, and he said, he wants to meet you tomorrow.

30:55I was like, no, I have public area. Literally, I'm not having it. I'll meet him at the Royal Lancaster Hotel, where I'd have talked before. And I met him there, and he'd come up to me, and he's like angry. then he was happy and like we're going to do this we want we said how much we love you we're going to give you this bonuses and this bonuses and I want to bet with you and so we had we got there in the end and I wanted it I liked him I liked this it was you know when we grew up we you know my dad wasn't around and so having someone like him was quite a an appealing thing it was something new to me.

31:36And I actually liked him for his stupidness and thought, John Fashion, you know, Vinnie Jones, a crazy gang. Am I going to fit in here? This is me, is it? But I got on well with him and then we had a couple of crazy bets for the season and he said to me, you're a cocky son of a bitch. And I said, well, he loves it, he does. And he says, if you score eight goals in the Premier League, I will buy you a Ferrari so I said so he said and he went from 8 to 15 and in his negotiations and then he said you have to give me this and this so I said alright I'll have it with you and then joined obviously the crazy gang and I was lucky I never got initiated on once because I'd just joined three days before Vinnie came back.

32:35So after that, the initiations became more and more involved. So I was lucky I missed it. Terry Feele on the left. So there was a new brand of crazy gang coming through. So it really started again. So I could be part of that. Just missed out. So is he like an eccentric but brainy behind it? Oh, whatever. Some people are just fucking lunatics, aren't they? No, he's so smart. So, so smart. I think I signed four contracts in three years with him. And he literally became this person. It cost me two things. He came and we played Man United away, beaten 1-0. And I knew I'd played well. And he'd come on the coach with a stick, this Irish thing he used to carry around, like a lucky thing.

33:22And he started hitting me. He said, you bastard. He said, why did you play so well? Mr Ferguson loves you they want you and all this I said of course they don't he said they do he started hitting me and we actually ended up on the floor in the middle of the fighting about whether I was going to go to Man United and I said I don't know nothing about it you know so he was just like that he would bet you 50 pound that he would be on the halfway line you'd be on that end of the pitch that he could run to the end of the pitch before you in a suit and shoes and things like that and the bets we would do he when I scored the 15th goal against Newcastle I think it was a Ferrari turned up on a Monday for me so he threw it to his word yeah yeah yeah he turned up but I had a couple of nice cars at the time and I had to pay 54 grand in revenue tax on it and I said I don't need as a benefit so he gave me a new contract so he just said we'll put it in your pension so I was like happy days but he's kept his word to all of it yeah we had the second season he said he said if you score 15 more goals I will kiss your arse and if you don't I've never heard of that it's quite a drop isn't it Ferrari to that there was a bit more in it a little bit more in it he started with a kiss yeah and he asked him and he said I will buy a camel and call it Dino and put it in London Zoo.

34:56So he did. I scored the 15 the next year. And he made a bust of me. I've still got this bronze bust. So we've scored. I think we beat Newcastle that day as well. And then Fash grabbed him. And I pulled down the shorts. And he kissed my arse in front of the lads. So that was, I wish we got a photo of it. He just loved the spirit of all that stuff, you know. Were you a wealthy man? Yeah. Like a really wealthy man? Yeah. he stopped me going to West Ham it was my only grudge I ever really still to this day and he knows it I've said it to him he stopped me joining West Ham and I blamed Joe and I got a call from Harry saying I'm meeting Joe tonight and that was like my dream I grew up in West Ham with my nan and grandad and my mum and literally it would have been my dream to join West Ham and it never happened and I was fuming about I was really annoyed about that.

35:52It didn't happen. For whatever reason, I still don't hold that as a grudge to him, but he said, if I let you go, we will go down. And then he said, this is Sam all over. He says, give me a month. You're our Ryan Giggs. He'll tell you all the stories. You're our Ryan Giggs. You're our whatever. And I met him at the Landmark Hotel in London, my favourite place that I've never ever dreamed of being in. met him him and David Barnard we got a new contract because he said well I can't I'm going to give you what Man United paid it which was him being load of waffle and then well come out of the hotel and I said to him be careful because they're coming around that corner quick he had a sheepskin on and he got hit by a motorbike my life and the motorbike went into his green Volvo and I said, I told you.

36:52I said, I told you. I've watched the corner. He's on the floor. I've been here. I've been here. I went, you haven't. You haven't. And he's like, the guy got up off the motorbike and goes, hello, can I have an autograph? And I went, do a favour. Send whatever you get across because it's his fault because he's not quick enough to get across the road. So I took him to the hospital. He was all right. It was just, but literally I said to him, I said, I could save your life. You know, he's like,

37:22so many things went on with him just amazing when we got called up for England and he made the announcement and it was pouring down the rain I come out and all my tyres were let down on my car by him four tyres down just so you didn't want it to get too big in your head so it was me rowed Ampton pumping them up told the groundsman to go missing. So I literally had to wait for ages to get a pump. So another time, a bit later on, he came into the lounge and one of the players, Player A, I said, do us a favour, follow me in this car. So I nicked his car, drove it to Barnes across Richmond Park, parked it up, come back, put his keys back on the side.

38:11And he didn't know he was upstairs in a meeting. and we get a phone call on the way back and this sim come up on the phone. I've red buttoned him, red buttoned him and he's leaving me voicemails in Arabic and Lebanese and then the lads were in the car. It was Hildy, John Goodman, Chirpy, Alan Kimball and I answered him. I said, what do you want? And he's swearing his head off at me. Where's my car? I said, I don't know what you're on about. I have no idea what you're talking about. I am going to kill you. I will do this. And I can't even say what he said he was going to do to me. And he literally called me a hundred times.

38:56You let my tires down the other day. I'm going to get you back. So that night he was ringing me. I didn't let him, didn't answer the phone. Left it, left it next day. And I started playing hot and cold with him in the park. I said, get in the car with someone and drive around that corner. You'll see a load of antlers on loads of deers. And that'll be where they are. And he went, they could effing move. And I went, they might not be there from the rest of the day. I don't know where they are. So literally, he's driving around Richmond Park playing hot and cold. And I knew where he was getting the Barnes Gate.

39:28And I said, well, go through that gate. It might be around there. And then his car was there. So, but it was brilliant because he was just literally driving around Richmond Park listening to me. And I had no idea where he was. is Richmond Park a big place massive is it yeah and it's not like a little park no no it's not a kids park no it's full of dirt did he have this relationship with all the players or was he no I mean he had a special relationship with Fash very different from Fash Vinny you know everyone the characters at Wimbledon were quite different the Dutchman Scalzi Warren Robbie you know all different and I was just this bloke who wanted to have fun and cost him money every week scoring goals really and the only time we used to speak to chairman they'd come in the changing room now and again it was hello Mr Chairman you'd shake the hand oh no he was in he he just made me laugh so many things he was so clever you talk about clever we had the bonuses you know when you've got to get the bonuses in for the last Thursday before the start of the season yeah get him signed off so he wouldn't sign ours we wanted a certain amount of money to stay in the Premier League it's only to stay in the Premier League which was saving his career by the way his life his life lived and he came in i i'm not giving you that and i said well we're going to go out the train if you don't sign it we'll we'll take what's there what comes up and he said you're you're trying to kill me and i said i'm nothing to do it i said i'm looking after the lads you're just calling me all these names and we walked out barney comes out he said reg you left to come back in like that's my nickname there so he said you have to come back in i went why So I came back in and he's bending over the table, going to me, give it to me.

41:12Do it, because that's what you're doing to me. And I went, I'm not. He went, you're doing to whatever. You can say what you want on here, by the way. And he went, you're trying to smack my arse. And I said, we're not. We're just trying to do what's fair for the lads. Trying to be a team and you should think about it. And he's like crying. and I said, stop bending over. Stop bending over. It's not a good look. And that is what he would do. And then he signed it and we all got on. It was just, he was just immense. He would do all sorts of things just to wind you up. Quick break in play, gentlemen.

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42:58we had Terry Gibson on and I think Dave Bassett spoke about one but he said Dave Bassett said Fashion was in the crazy gun but he wasn't he kind of kept his distance I know Terry told us a couple of stories about him that he was a different character did you find that? I got on really well with Fashion and I just knew you've got to know the person you've got to know what you're dealing with I know that if he was on his day he was immense he was unplayable I tell you we played Coventry away and he was doing Gladiators and he had a header and it was going in it was sort of going in it was one of them but I added it in got my bonus and it was Fashy's header Fashy's header but I've got to make sure you know so anyway we walked off we're 2-0 up, walked in, and as I'm coming off, he goes, Reg, he said, my back's not feeling too clever.

43:55So I said, yeah, you'll be all right, Reg, come on. And goes on the treatment table, walk out, second half, he ain't out. So didn't think nothing of it. We win 2-0. Next day, I'm going to Gladiators with Bradley, my boy, and get into Gladiators at six o 'clock, right so six o 'clock is significant because Flash was there at six o 'clock the day before so he'd come off at half time got in a car and went and did gladiators yeah so I was thinking I was like was he here yesterday and he goes yeah and I went he was here at six o 'clock yesterday of course he was because he left at half time and then the spotlight came on me he goes there he is he stole my goal Bradley's like that with a hand and all that what's going on he's like I was trying to get the middle one I was like you have that Fash you know what I mean he stole my goal yesterday and I was like get off me I don't want to be noticed but six o 'clock he'd gone so Fash had his own his own ways of like manipulating doing stuff the way he did it and yes he was in it he was a leader of it he was the figurehead of it and sometimes him and Vinny were you know significant players and the people for Wimbledon's crazy game the image but I'll tell you what on their day and the effort levels of winning wanting to win was amazing so the intimidation thing so the bell's gone you know for say five ten to three would it start then you know I'm just picturing he was in the tunnel what kind of stuff would go on I remember I was captain at Wimbledon for a year and Vinnie come past Eric Cantona and called him a few names and he was standing there he didn't even acknowledge me and I was like, Jonah, you can't intimidate this bloke.

45:47And they come out, I think it might have been a cup match and he goes out and he chests the ball down and volleys it in from 25 yards. And I went, well done, Jonah. He really wound him up. Really brilliant. Chills your victims. Exactly so. But yeah, 10 to 3 in the tunnel because it's a small tunnel at Palace, isn't it, as you walk out. Yeah. And there's always loads of, Sam would be standing there with a broom He's always got a weapon, hasn't he? He's sitting there, standing with a broom, smashing these metal, what are they called, storage cupboards. He'd be smacking them as they're walking past.

46:22This little Lebanese bloke with a pinched up suit on, penfold, bashing the thing. It was just the way it was. Just, it was always the verbals. I mean, some players you couldn't intimidate. Like, righty, Ian Wright, amazing. He had everything. in terms of loving the duel, loving the fight. Martin Keown, you know, the stuff I had with Martin. I literally, during my career, he was one person I hated. And I just, but I wanted him in my team. But what a centre-half, he was, what an unbelievable, nasty, horrible, everything you can think of as a centre-half. We're talking some top players, when people get asked that question about who did you hate playing against, he always he's always in there oh god I just wanted him to kick me as early as he could so I could get him booked and then I've got chance of doing him later on but he was the one you thought oh my god you'd have anxiety a couple of days before because you thought I just know that it was going to happen you know it starts in the tunnel a little bit of banter and he would just turn around and go I'm going to kick shit out of you today and that is it and you just thought right I am going to do all I can to wind you up you know but what a team they were I mean And you're just, you're talking about moments and you're talking about straight balls coming up to you.

47:44You'd put your head in the back of their nose and things like that. But he would come down on the back of your shins, your calves and... Long studs, I imagine. And you just wanted one chance to try and get your own retribution. You mentioned Cantona then. And I remember a Vinnie Jones tackle on him. Oh, wow. I'm 10 yards away. The website one. Yeah. I think it's that game. I think it was that game, I'm talking about where you chest it down. I was 10 yards away, I think. It was unbelievable. wasn't it it was just phenomenal if it happens on fucking Oxford Street you're getting 18 months aren't you you're going down for it I think if it happens today it's a six month ban from football any form of football it was nowhere near his knees even yeah it was an unbelievable challenge it must have been in practice for when he got the Palace fan because he got him neck-eyed must have seen it from here do you think being at Wimbledon ampered chances of playing for England in that period?

48:42I mean, 19 goals, 24 goals, year after? Yeah, possibly, possibly. And it probably was while I stabilised myself as a Premier League goalscorer and then second season think, right, you know, he's always talked about you in the newspapers and the newspapers, headlines, he's going, yeah, this is happening. Unfortunately, you're not dealing with a rational chairman who looks at it and goes, we will take the money and until it's right for them yeah so you he was never going to back down he said i will we will get relegated if i let you go so he just paid me more it's a double-edged sword because you when you want to go you want to bet yourself of course i did i wanted to join you know west ham's biggest club in the world and i wanted to join them you know but it didn't happen so you know one of them things so i've just five years i've done my time and had a little bit a fallout with Joe a few times over the West Ham thing.

49:40And you just think scoring all them goals in the Premier League, I was in amongst the list of serious goal scorers. Let's get it right. You know, Wrighty, Oren Fowler, Sheringham, Ferdinand, Chris Sutton. There's a serious bunch of… Look at that first year. You were only just behind Ted Sheringham and Les Ferdinanders. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I loved it. I loved it. That was my drive as well. I wanted to be in the top. I wanted to be top. Please believe me. I've got a golden boot or a bronze boot, whatever you want to call it, for the 38 goals the year before. And I wanted to try and get to that. And I always had a bit of banter with Wrighty because Wrighty, for me, I loved him.

50:17I loved his personality. I loved him as a bloke and as a player. And I thought, Wrighty's going to go, and Alan Shearer, let's get it right. Alan, he's trying to compete with the top, top. But to be in that, I'm proud. After being, I always resonate to this, to my knee, you know? in days of 55 steps carrying a physio up and down the back of Watford Stadium every day, you know. That's what I remember from being the humility of it, you know, how it can bring you that way. Was there some bet involving some kind of testicles? So we had a bonus system. I took this into Bolton after. I took this as a bonus, as a forfeit.

50:54If you lost by four clear goals, you had to go to a Lebanese restaurant and eat testicles. Flambéed. lamb so they never had the other part of the animal on them as long as it weren't the waiters yeah which ones are these excuse me yeah we would have to go to a Lebanese restaurant and eat testicles there was it was a Russian play which was four and a half hours long that was in it as well you had to go to watch a four and a half hour Russian play ballet so taking the ball so Just pass us the nuts. There's a beer. But he, literally, I took that experience. And when we got up to the Premier League through the playoffs with Bolton, I said to Sam, let me devise the bonus system that we can make it a positive out of a negative.

51:51So there's a bit of publicity out of it. We can take the chairman, the chief exec, Sam. Funny enough, they all got pulled out their names to eat the testicles. Is that what it was? Not everybody has to eat them. No, just picked out of a hat, five people. But strangely, they got picked out. I have no idea how they got out of it. So is this four goals on a Saturday or in training? No, in a game. In a proper game? In a proper game. We had, I think it was Ilda sent off at Newcastle and Jeremy had a winning goal. We got beat, something silly. So then we had to go and do the forfeits. Who was the dark horse in that Wimbledon team?

52:29You know, like, oh, people didn't really know is the crazy one, but were, like, under the radar fucking nuts. Oh, nuts? Yeah. Oh, gosh, they were all nuts. See, I never had Terry feeling down. No, Terry left. Terry left when I was there. Yeah. He left a week later. I trained with Terry for a week and then he left. He went on. Yeah, I mean, like, people like Scott Fitzgerald, who probably wasn't so prominent in the team of Scalzi and the centre-half. me and Scalzi got on. Scalzi was a little bit of a dark horse because we roomed together. And then we would, on a Friday night when we were away, we'd go to the reception at seven o 'clock.

53:12The coach driver would come down, Alan, and he'd go into dinner and we'd say, can we have a key to his room? And then we'd go and put his bed, take his bed out of the room and put the bed in the lift. And he'd come back and then his clothes would be tied to the flags outside the hotel, things like that. So Scales was involved in it, but he was always too good looking to be part of the mad. The funny thing was, when we played Everton in that infamous game, the night before, the coach got burnt out. It was Scalesy. So Alan gets a call at three o 'clock in the morning, the driver, saying your coach is on fire, come down.

53:51And he said, tell Oldsworth and Scales to F off. Put the phone down, took the phone off, gets up in the morning. Coach had been burnt out. He just thought we were mucking about. So there was so many pranks, so many. On a Christmas do or a team night out, would it be a case of, right, just fasten yourself in, someone's going to go off? Yeah, it was. It was always. I mean, we still meet now every six months. I'm just thinking he used to come like this, like Zimmer frames like cots. Yes.

54:29it's a lot tamer it's a lot tamer people throwing tees

54:37it's a lot tamer now but there's still there's such a great bunch of fellas who who want to carry it on it's a you know just meeting up still now he's brilliant we lost Stixie Stevie Tallboys I don't know if you remember Stevie Stixie was our conduit he was our glue to the group and unfortunately he passed away. He had a heart attack and passed away. And that was a proper sad day losing him. He was such a... He wasn't always in the first team, but he was a bloke who brought everybody together and we lost him and that was so unfortunate. But we've carried on. We still carry on. I love going down to see the boys.

55:12They're great. I mean, Thatch is mad as a hutter. Who's flashing him? Thatch. Ben Thatcher. Sorry, Ben Thatcher. All of the lads are brilliant. They all travel for different reasons and different rare places and stuff like that, but it's a good bunch when you're there. So, but the Christmas days are good. This is an interesting fact for everybody. Dean doesn't like pubs. True? True. Yeah. I don't. I'm not a pub person. That was just, carry on, Chris. I don't like people. Would, like, you know, wives, girlfriends, would they be in the Players' Lounge Saturdays talking about what you'd done the week, through the week?

55:52I mean, did you hear about what happened on Tuesday at training? No. This happened, that happened. Never. No one told anyone anything. Just all kept in house. Always. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, wives at home think, oh, they're just sensible lads. They're just good lads. Kenny Cunningham had a blazer, an Irish green blazer. At the time, everyone was wearing, like, different suits and Versace and all the coloured. So Kenny came in in a terrible blazer. So we put a note in it. Do not wear this again. Or consequences. And he wore it to a game and someone cut it up the back, in the middle of the back of the blazer.

56:37So when he put it on, it was like a cape. And his missus came in proper angry with everybody. That's my Kenny blazer. Who's done it? And he's having a go, Jonah. Jonah goes, ain't me. and I went, well, it ain't me. Everyone's going, it ain't me. And like, it was just, no one was going to grasp it, but just, you should have read the note. He was warned. Should have read the note. I've got no sympathy. Absolutely. What point in the players' lounge is she going and you're going, no, no, do not go out of that room. Sit back down. Sit there, you stupid cow. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't know, but she weren't happy because she's come from Millwall, so maybe, I don't know where she's from.

57:15You mentioned that I didn't realise why the Everton game was infamous but I've just seen 18 man brawl is that the game? It might well have been probably 18 man brawl in most games But was that why you said it was infamous? No the infamous game is when they they had to win to stay up it was the last game of the season Ah right So it was everything on that and that was like going to a game and we had to think the coach burnt out so we had another coach and we had about 10 bikes, police bikes around us on the way through to Everton. There was all things being thrown. You were like condemned men going to a game.

57:55And this is a good truth. We said, when you get off the coach, there's an alley they make for you, the stewards. And so no one stopped to sign anything. Gary Blissett got off the coach. Fash was behind him and a fella slashed Fash's blazer with a knife as he was walking through.

58:21he slashed his thing and bliss stop don't stop you know so that was the start and there was a fellow on the other side of the pitch in the second half I scored in that game I scored a penalty and there was a fellow on the other side of the tunnel the other side saying to me I am going to stab you right he had a knife in his hand right you know where you can see him it was close I am going to stab you I'm going to kill you if we lose this game and I'm like okay I'm going to go and play right wing I'm playing the other side of the pitch so Joe's going to be get over that side nope no chance there's a fellow over there who's going to like literally and I met someone a few years later on when I moved up to Bolton I lived in Formby and the guy said that fellow I know him who was saying that to you and I was oh I don't really want to meet him thanks we lost He got where he stayed up.

59:15So good luck to that. But yeah, it was an unbelievable game. So Fash got his jacket slashed? Yeah, he had a black Versace blazer on. I'll never forget it. And he had it slashed at the back, across the back. So that was pretty. And I had to, I was going home. My brother-in-law, Dennis, was up for the game. He would come up. So I went in the bar after, and I'm going home with him. I'm not getting on a coach. so I walked through the whole crowd of Goodison with a Goodison Everton scarf and hat on so I could get to the car because I was frightened of life because I was like you know it was nuts the whole 48 hours was mad incredible yeah the lengths they've gone to because they've obviously burnt the coach out yeah I literally had Everton scarf and hat on with them and they're like I don't think it's getting him enough attention that he got his slashed on the way into the ground because he can't be sure that you're just going to get fabric no you think no no absolutely absolutely but no one mentioned it we just got on with it Wimbledon we just get on with things when they go like that we were the best one like a tunnel you know when it all you like all these tunnels don't you because we never really had it did we QPR I can remember QPR um away I'd um got booked for Elbar and Alan McDonald but he was six foot four.

1:00:37I couldn't know how to help him. Anyway, I got booked. Poley, Graham Poley was a referee who I'd known from the Watford youth as he came up. And next thing I'll go through and score and my usual side was go up to the fans and give them a bit of grief because they're throwing coins at you and everyone else and telling them they're going to do things to me. And so I want to give them a bit of grief. Next thing, Danny Maddox came through me and I jumped up and we went bang on, like head to head. And Polly comes over and goes, Reg, because he knew me of years, and he went, I've got to send you off.

1:01:16And I went, Roly. I called him Roly Polly. And he went, I went, what are you doing? And he goes, I've got to send you off. I went, what for? He goes, I've got an administrator in the stand. Head to head is now a booking. I went, I've got to send you off. So I'm off. Sent off. We won 3-0, but it was proper kicked off in the tunnel. And I'm sort of like watching it. But Mick Arford, listen, it was proper kicked off. Mick was immense. What a man he is. I love him. But you wouldn't want to pick on him, would you? So there was loads of scraps all the time. Arsenal, Vinny Wrighty would love a fight with us.

1:02:03He loved it. There's a photo of him hooking Gary Elkins in his book. The official. Yeah, my life. Have a look in his book. It's in the book. Wrighty loved it. Loved it. Loved the tear up. Tottenham was always a big tear up for us as well. There's a game which highlights. And you see the tackles in it. No one goes down and rolling around. There's 50 tackles in that game. Unbelievable. But that's what it was. but the lads were brilliant it's almost like oligarism isn't it great tear up for us talking it is you know what you're going for but he was half a gentle giant wasn't he Mick but then you shook his hand and we're talking he ain't just his hand so he's a great fella great fella I mean you mentioned Sam and Manley not through like West Ham not wanting to let you go so what what happened when it did come together were you leaving?

1:02:58Was it just the financial troubles at Wimbledon at the time? Yeah, I was talking to Brian Robson at Middlesbrough and out of the blue, he rung me on a Sunday night and said, Bolton have offered 500 ,000 more. You can go and talk to them. And at that time, I was ready to go. I was like, I wanted another challenge. I wanted to be a multi-million pounds transfer. I always wanted one of them, you know, resonates from the knee. Am I ever going to get to that part of it, you know? And when you drive to Bolton and you go along that M61 and see the stadium... And remember, I've been a tenant at Palace and trained on Roehampton on a public park.

1:03:49You're thinking, I wouldn't mind a bit of that. It's quite grandly, doesn't it? It's fantastic. What a place. And literally, I'm signing here today. And that was the time I knew I had to go. Three and a half mil? Yeah. Record signing for Bolton at the time. Yeah. Loved it. I loved that sort of, loved it. And then scored the first goal in the stadium, an open play against Chelsea, beaten 1-0. I thought, this is great. But under Colin, it was a different way of playing from Wimbledon. Totally different. I found it really hard. We never crossed the ball. And I went to see him about a month, six weeks in.

1:04:32And I said to him, Gaffey, do you know something? I am really good in the air. I said, if you've done all your own work on me, which I don't know if you did, or you've just bought me, I'm really good in the air if you put the crosshairs in, but we don't cross the ball. Did he see that as constructive, or did he see it as you questioning his management style? Yeah, he saw it as like that. Yeah, I went to him, we had a row after a game once, because we lost, and he was really happy, and I was like, I ain't, why are we happy losing? like he played might have played well but I'm not I can't stand losing and he went well you know and I was like no I'm not I don't know I don't know and we fell out and I went to see him on the Monday and I said I hope you don't hold a grudge I'm just passionate I want to win no I don't hold a grudge I never played for about 10 games I've subbed for ages and I was like you hold a grudge and once he left I was like right where does this where am I going now what do I do because I loved the club I enjoyed playing I wanted to start in them to see the best of me they hadn't seen the best of me in those two years really because we'd run we didn't play the way I played and neither say an injury um and then Sam arrived which was like the best thing I can ever tell you which happened because he pulled me in he said what do you need and I said two wingers two wingers who can kick the ball into the box and he said well I'm on it I'm on it for you.

1:06:02We changed the psychologists. We brought psychologists in. We signed Alan Johnson and Nicky Summerby. And I scored a hat-trick ahead us in a cup match. And I was like, I gave him the ball. I said, have the ball because you just listen to me. At least you're listening to understanding me. Otherwise I needed to go, didn't I? Did that affect your relationship with Andy Todd? The fact that you didn't really get on with his old man? That was a tough one. No, I never made it personal with Andy. I got an right of him. I think the the well-known thing, what happened, because Phil Brown was the assistant manager and then had the job for a while.

1:06:39What happened, yeah, I was there that night, unfortunately. That wasn't a nice thing to happen. It was pretty horrific. Bit too far. Way too far. Way too far, yeah. Way too far. So that was obviously the end of him being at the club. and, you know, yeah, no one got personal with Andy over his old man being there.

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1:08:57when you arrived at Bolton did you try and bring any of that crazy gang mentality when you're Wimbledon you you become nervous about leaving anything that there will be empty when the time you come back there'll be drunk your drink would be drunk your food will be up yeah if you've left the room something cheese you're on edge anxiety cut so I went to Bolton and then I'm walking around with my wash bag my boots and again what are you doing why you got your stuff with you and i went i'm not putting it down they went why and i went don't people nick it and they went no we're a normal football club and i was like yeah right i'm not used to that and literally you know goodney bergson um used to call us we got to a point where the camaraderie was really good and paul warhurst jonno kane um we've got goodney would call us the crazy bunch rather than a crazy gang good he loved it you know goodney's quite righteous and is a lawyer.

1:09:53And he loved being part of the crazy bunch. So, yeah, there was things you could do and things you couldn't do because they weren't ready for it. And then you can't go and nick Yuri Jorka F's boots and tie them up and things like that, you know. So you had to be a bit more limited around things. But we had Ian Marshall. I mean, Marshall's legend. Marshall, he loved it. He loved a beer. and we weren't allowed alcohol in the bar at the players' lounge. So Marshal called it a room. It's just a room, isn't it? It's not a players' lounge, it's a room. He hated it. Couldn't have a beer after the game and things like that.

1:10:32So the professionalism was coming in through Sam. Can you tell us about we're going to have to protect this player's identity so we're going to call him Player A? Yeah. Player A, we was in Indianapolis. this was a part of the stuff that went on. We're in Indianapolis playing a game. Nobby, Kevin Nolan gets injured, has to go back with Sam. I think Sam wanted to go home. And we're a million miles away. Got a game on a Saturday, on a Friday, game on a Monday. Go to a watch a, what's it called it? NBA. NBA game. And I said to Sam, can we have a night out Saturday? We've trained all week. yeah and he said all right curfew 12 o 'clock so we went to the game get to this bar called have a nice day cafe and it was empty 11 o 'clock is empty so we're like god starts getting busier getting busier 11 45's packed rocking all having a great time the conversation was four blokes like us standing there are you going back are you going back and at Wimbledon we never really had a curfew we just made sure we were there the next day.

1:11:43So I was like, I'll stay out. I'm up for it. Player A, he went, yeah, I'll have a bit of that. And then the other B and C went, yeah, I'll have a bit of that. So 2.30, we come out of there, had a great time, get back to the hotel, get in the back of the hotel, and we'll be up tomorrow for training. Player A goes down the sidewalk, and within 30 seconds, there's a police car who drives up mounts the road puts a floodlight on him he's having a wee and two cops get out guns pointing at him at him and he's having a wee and he goes I'll be with you in one minute there might have been a bit of an accent in that play around I'm not a bit of a Lebanese that anyway I'll be with you in one minute so I walked to the walls this woman the police woman and I said look He's from England and we're a football team.

1:12:49Get away from me, step back, step back. And I said, I'm moonwalking, I'm moonwalking. She pointed a gun at me and I was like, I am moonwalking. Player B was, player C was on one of the cars eating a hot dog. And the other player D was going, arrest him, arrest him. And I'm like, oh, my God. I'm like, this is significant. So he walks over towards him, slam him on the car, hands behind his back, stick him in the car, drives off. We're one man down at half two in the morning and a significant man in the team. And I'm like, oh, my God. What are we going to do now? Got to get back to the hotel. Anyone know where the hotel is?

1:13:38get back in the hotel get back in the room 8 o 'clock in the morning Sam Allardyce has gone back Phil Brown's in charge Barney Antti Barney's shaking me Reg you've got to get up you've got to get up and I'm like what's up and he goes there's a meeting downstairs and I went and then I realised oh no oh my god I forgot what happened so I've got downstairs everyone's at the table Phil Brown walks in this person player a has been arrested last night at three o 'clock in the morning with three other people and he's now in the slammer till monday so i'm sitting there looking at my coffee like this and uh who was there i'm gonna find out and whoever was there sitting on your hands so i was he went and whoever it was it's two weeks wages awkward I went I was there I just put my own I said yeah I was there I said but I think it was about quarter to twelve I said I couldn't leave him it was about quarter to twelve you sure the timing's right and he went who was with you and I went I was on my own and he went you weren't I went I was on my own he went I know you wasn't there's three other people who else who else is who else is brave enough in the room to say as brave as him and player C put his hand up and he goes yeah I was there and I was like oh good lad and he went I think he's about 10 to 12 I was cracking up and then he went alright who else was the last one I want to find out who it is and that person was a good friend of mine and he kept his head down in his cornflakes And he went, I'll tell you what I'm going to do.

1:15:30And this is for all over. He goes, those two have owned up. The one who hasn't, I'm going to get you out of the club. And that player had never played again for us. So, and then player A, who's been arrested, comes out of the prison on Monday, plays in the game, gets sent off. What? He went, I think it's time I left the country. It was hilarious. You couldn't have gone any wrong, the whole thing. We come back, we beat Leicester 5-0 at the start of the season. Incredible. Unbelievable. Couldn't have gone any wrong any more than that. It was unbelievable. It was so funny. And are you thinking, obviously the two weeks wages is not great at all, but are you thinking there could be even more repercussions?

1:16:19Or would it have been two weeks, right, you've fucked up? But if you hadn't put your hand up, do you mean? Yeah, you put your hand up, I were out. Yeah. You know what? I've rung Sam. I've rung Sam and I've still got, and thankfully I've got a great relationship with him. I rung him up and I said, he's having a wee. I said, it's nothing. He's having a wee down the thing. We don't really know. He's not from anywhere and he's having a wee. It's not the end of the world, is it? Come on, let's get it right. And I said, you know, we were a little bit late, but come on, let's get it right. We're having a good time.

1:16:55we've had seven days of like disciples you know so we never got fined it was alright it was good as gold so play C never was it play C or D I lost all my flipping thing play D never played again went on loan and then got binned so Phil Brown knew all was it on the sheet you know it was he was one of my mates right so you're setting yourself up for problems I think setting curfews we always thought the curfews were there to be broken I had a problem at Wimbledon and you've never had one. You could just be there tomorrow and make sure you train and do your best. That was it. We spoke a bit about pushback from senior pros when all the new science and everything, and obviously Sam bringing that in.

1:17:38Was there any pushback from you or any of the other? Not from me, no, I loved it. I loved it. I embraced it. Marshy hated swimming, and we had to go, over 30s, had to go swimming, like treading water. And Marshy said, I'm 33 years of age, and I've never swum on a football pitch.

1:17:58You can't help but love Marshy, but he was a wolf in sheep's clothing because he, tell you what, he gave, he was good and he did his, always did his best but he hated some of the training and the fat, you know, body fats at 9 % and things like that. So, it's just a new era for him but it probably put two years on his career, didn't it? You know? I'm delighted on a Monday morning if you get that cold. Swimming? Yeah. You get yourself in the pool over the moon. I do a lot of swimming. I like it. it. There's a couple of players from that squad that I always mention. Arna Gunnar Larson. Alright? Yeah.

1:18:33You brought him from nowhere. He's the Iceland manager now. What? National team manager. I thought he meant in Orange. Arna Gunnar Larson was different. He was a little bit different in his dress. Yeah. In his ways. I actually really liked him. I got on well with him. I got on well with Arnie. Good footballer. Done well. Probably never achieved what he wanted to achieve, but was good. Good lad. Good fella. The other one, Stig Tofton. Stig. What a player. What a bloke. Came in in a sequined t-shirt first day. And I think he had his nipples pierced and a chain going from one to the other. Cross.

1:19:21Took his top off. and I went, what? How was that? And he went, and I think he's got hard as Fook or something like that or no regrets or something like that on his chest or his belly and I was like, wow, that is something different. What a machine he was. Yeah, another good character in that group. I can imagine it with him and he's just getting a Oh, it would have been both nipples off. Or someone would have got their coat hanger and hanging one of them put the coat on and the shirt on that. You know? Yeah, he was a good fella, Stig. He's all Stig, he's a Tig, whatever his name is. Yeah. He must have been, you know, when you're seeing all these players coming in, you know, your JJs, your Jokaevs.

1:20:04Yeah. You must have been thinking, who's next? I think Sam just broke the seal of Bolton being Bolton as a town. You know, some of the mentality when I went there was very small. Sam embraced it, took it and turned an acorn into an oak tree as a club. Probably pushed too far in the end for Bolton's liking. But yeah, I mean, his ability to talk people to the club and to Bolton, you know, was amazing how he'd done it. And his reputation was in front of him, way in front of him, for his man management. and that's probably, I'd say, is way, way ahead of a lot of managers I've played under. I mean, speaking before, I mean, you're still playing now.

1:20:58Was a lot of the stuff that Sam introduced stuck with you? Yeah, loads, loads, loads, absolutely loads. Especially about the fitness, the details. I think his real passion was getting the players to really play for him and understanding what it takes to go to Arsenal and win, what it takes to go to Man United. We had Per Franson sitting in front of, I think it was York and Cole, or York and another one season, and Per Franson never sprinted the whole of the game. He sprinted off because he needed a wee at half-time. And that was on his pro zone. Sprint was off. My readings might have been a bit like that.

1:21:43All he had to do was screen the front two. And that's all he did. We win 2-0 at Old Trafford. He was a genius. The manager. Who's your favourite strike partner, do you think, throughout top to bottom? Well... Do you enjoy playing with most? Blimey. I mean, Fash was incredible to play off of. Gary Blissett, when I was at Brentford, we had the best knowledge of each other's game. um fash was unique in terms of he could protect me i didn't have to go up with martin keown in the air and all those people did do that that sort of stuff i had a good johnson you know playing with yuri i had to play with my back to goal with under sam quite a bit yeah as a 10 with my back to goal changed the way we played so they pass up to me we hold it up you change your body shape a little bit you have to get a bit stronger and so a different way of playing We never played directly up to me as a target man, you know.

1:22:42So I was luxury. York AF, Goodjonsson, Fashionu, Blissett, you know, those guys for me were brilliant, you know. Did you know how good he was, Goodjonsson? When he comes to us, he was overweight and he was injured. And he got himself fit and lost weight. He was a good player. Seriously, good feet, great feet, great feet. but really did well and went on and had a brilliant career did he have a night didn't he Allardyce because he broke his leg at Barcelona and then give him that chance yeah took a while but once he got fit he was seriously a great platform with really great good guy as well was Sam into his Dubai trips back then you know international breaks no we never went there then no we went more to Spain oh so you still went somewhere we went somewhere he loved the trip I know he likes the Dubai regime now.

1:23:36Yeah. I think he's sponsored by Emirates. I mean, if you don't want to talk about that, Sam, but the taking over the club, taking over Bolton. Yeah, I'll go on it a little bit. It was incredible how that happened. Probably one of the proudest moments of my life was saving the club from going under at the court. How it got to it was unique. I was working in some funding and it was to help Phil Garside at the time, fund to buy the club. And Phil, unfortunately, God bless him, he got ill and passed away. But we had the finance in place and I met Eddie Davis and he said, well, why don't you do it?

1:24:23I was like, wow, what does that look like? Roll on probably seven months. The club had sold training ground, finance, lots of stuff to pay Eddie back some of the debt.

1:24:41And for the unknown reason, I went ahead with it. And I thought, but once you're in, you're in. The fact that it was Bolton. Yeah, I had an emotional attachment. And I loved all the people who worked there. And once you're in it, you've got to go, I want to win it, haven't you? And that was my mentality. I kept my sort of nose and head under the water for a while and a lot of other people were talking about doing this and doing that, but we had the money there. I get it and then we saved them at court and I still remember punching the air, we've saved the club, the solicitors on the court and saying we've saved the club from going under.

1:25:18Literally hours. Minutes. Minutes. Minutes. And I realised then like, wow, all those people who, you know, working there the club I've been a great part of could have died that day and it might have been resurrected and it probably would have been but it stopped that and doing that was probably one of the proudest things I've ever done but most also wow why did you do that moment you thought oh fuck I'm in too deep unfortunately I got involved with someone who I just couldn't lied to me so much and And it became a real struggle for me. We got promoted, Phil Parkinson came in, we got promoted by literally, it was painful working against a partner who was just, wow, yeah, I'd never experienced anything like it.

1:26:15I bet it's difficult for you personally because then you're associated with that, aren't you, from that point? Absolutely, by association. But the real people who know Bolton and know exactly what happened and how it happened. And the best day, it's like I think someone relates it to buying a boat. The best day is the day you buy the boat and the best day you sell it because it just takes the stress away. And I literally, the day I got sold my part of the company, my shares in it, was a relief. Is that bad that you just had to? Yeah, I literally, I wasn't used to the world of narcissistic lying.

1:26:59It was painful a lot of times. I was in the world, but I wasn't in it. It was just relentless what I had to deal with. And as I say, it all happens for a reason. And I'm proud of saving that club. I really am. but it was, I didn't know, I wouldn't have done it if I knew what I was going to go through because it wasn't pleasant. To the point where you're like up at night and stuff like that? Yeah, at night, waking up to emails, to all sorts of stuff which was going on. It was crazy. I always used to see it on Sky, the administration, clubs getting deducted points and stuff but I was always thinking something will happen there's no way they're folding and the eye opener was buried yes for me it can actually happen where a club can just go I remember the solicitor ringing me I'm in the court I've got the paperwork the judge is making the case up against HMRC and they will take you they will take the club down and I said well get in front of that judge put the paper in front of him saying the money's in the bank L2 order and it was done just like that and I was like wow you know then you've got then you've got to go and appease the football league yeah it was it was a hell of an experience hell of an experience but I wouldn't if you'd said to me in 97 when I'm driving up the M61 you're going to go and buy that club in later years yeah you'd think no chance well how do I know about it just funny how you like the path of your life changes isn't it you know but great very proud to do it but relieved to be away from it.

1:28:43And I love the club now. I love it. And I love the fact that Michael James or the people who own the club are doing it the right way, you know, for the fans and the players. If you're going to have six cans on a train, normally there's pubs, but you don't like pubs. With three teammates... You should have a plane, please. With three teammates, who would you pick? Wow. Blimey. Train's going to Carlisle. It's just a long gun. It's a long gun. Only someone is going to make me laugh. Six cans of McEwans. If I had three players, I'd take Ben Thatcher. I'd have Mick Hartford. Security. I'd have Mick.

1:29:25Security. Just in case the train conductor starts getting a bit chelpy. Mick. Who would be the other one? Richard Shaw. Richard Shaw. I spent three or four years kicking lumps out of him and he kicking lumps out of me. I went to Coventry and got on so well with Schozer and literally had three months of him at Coventry and had such a laugh. Even during games, we were mucking about. And yeah, Schozer's a top fella. And Ian Bishop as well, if I could have four. He'll have to sit on a sandwich. He can go on the way back. What a great fella, Bishes. He was class one, wasn't he? Yeah. Yeah, Bishes is a great fella.

1:30:08I've got so many good, not mates, but acquaintances with players and stuff like that. I never really fell out with many people. Even, I suppose, I got sent off for kicking Robbie Savage once in the neck at the Leicester game. I never fell out with him. It was one of them, he was winding everybody up. Me and Paul Warris both got sent off trying to do him. And it was quite an infamous game for when Sam had the mark rate monitors on him. And then I apologised to Robbie a few years later when we were in a charity match in the shower. He said, do you remember kicking me in the neck? And I was like, yeah, I'm sorry about that.

1:30:54No clothes on. I thought he can't punch me or hit me. So, yeah, there's so many good people in football. I've always gone well with most people. and unfortunately when you become a manager you can fall out of players. That becomes a bit of a tough one. You make unpopular decisions. Did you always want to be a manager? I always thought that my mannerisms and the way I am and I've taken a lot out of Sam Allardyce and some of the managers when I played even with Terry Renables for the time I was with England B. What a bloke to play for. and those sort of people motivated me. I thought, well, I'll see where I can get to, you know.

1:31:41Went from Redbridge, where my chairman used to have a fag and a pint as a board meeting. We've done really well that year and then I go to Newport. First day at Newport, I sacked 20 players. I knew they had a drink problem. I thought they had a drink problem. Allegedly, they had one. it was just it was a circus but potentially a really big club and I saw something there and I thought I might be able to do something with this fan base and with a team you know so but I sat 20 players my first day it's a statement I didn't know you could do that I just phoned him up and said you're not you're not wanted you can't but I did that was it there was no contracts all of them were up so there was no I kept two players a goalkeeper Flynn Thompson good goalkeeper and I kept Nathan Davis the Welsh person because Welsh people love Welsh people don't they I kept I was popular and how big of drinking would it have actually been I saw videos what made me worry about the culture and it's a good job none of your managers watch that Stag Do video because you've been long gone yeah but yeah I knew it was just a circus after after games and the coaches you know the old school crates of glager and all that and I saw videos I went there on loan for a month and scored in and despite all the crazy game things I wasn't it wasn't me you'd never drink a drive you'd never do that but you can't watch players falling off coaches and stuff like that and then go, oh, I'd like to sign you.

1:33:30Because then you're the manager, aren't you? And you go, do you want him playing for you? No. So 20 phone calls, done. That saved him the petrol, didn't it? If he scored that trick, it can fucking fall off bus for me. But, you know, that was a real start of my managerial career doing that. And the first year was turmoil. Everybody resigned on the board. There was no one there. It was turmoil. And I don't know how I stayed in there to stick it out. But I did. And then we built a team which was unbelievable. But great lads as well. Scotty Rogers, who's manager of Western Simpsons. They've all gone on.

1:34:16Sam Fogli has just taken over at Barrow. They've all got football in their blood. They love football. And when you've got that, we've got something to build on, haven't you? And they listen to you. And we built that team with 103 points that season. That was amazing. We took them to Vegas. It's an achievement, isn't it? Did you? We played Eastleigh in September. And Ian Baird, if you know Baird, great fellow, beat it pretty mad. And Eastleigh were the benchmark for the division. And I said, this is your test today. This will give me an indication where we're going to get to. We were out and beating 5-1.

1:34:50And I called the chairman after the game and I said, call the other directors in the room. I need to speak to you. He said, why? I went, just get them in the room. What year is this, sorry? This was 2009, I'd say. Something like that.

1:35:05And, yeah, 2009, 2010. And it was, yeah, it was 16 years ago on Monday that we got promoted on a Tuesday night against Haven't Walked with Liverpool. I called a meeting and I said, get ready for promotion. I think we can win the league. I want you to get a club shot, make some money. We had a car boot sale for a club shot. So I said, get a proper shot in. We could have a chance here if we do it right. And we won, say, this time last of the year, we went up. And then we went on. I said, if you get 100 points, I'll take you to Vegas. So we got 103 points, took me to Vegas. Did you go as well? Yeah.

1:35:46Of course I did. Don't want a drinking culture there. That would kick my eye on them, didn't I? Security. Absolutely. And there's a funny story about one of their players. Player A, I'll give you this player A. Because I said to him, we're going to Vegas. You are my only concern about going to Vegas, going to America. You are my priority to tell you that you need insurance. Because they will not let you do what you do in Vegas and you get away with it. I promise you, Gaffer, I'll get my insurance. Right, fine. Go to give them some spending money. get promoted, go to Vegas. Sitting by a pool, guy comes over to me, you gaffer?

1:36:29I went, I went, no. You the boss? I went, no. He went, you are? I went, no, I'm not. And he went, we've got a problem. I went, what is it? He goes, one of your guys is inebriated. He's fell in a pool and he's on his way to hospital. And I went, is his name? And he goes, yeah, that's the guy so i bloody knew it i bloody knew it he's all right he's got insurance so i went where's the hospital like well we'll go and see him in a bit we've got a physio there in a bit in a bit yeah so um i'll go to the hospital i've got a photo on my phone in right he's got all these tubes out of coming out of him laying on the thing and i banged him on the head Wake up.

1:37:12And he goes, Gaffer, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I went, I'm not bothered. I am not bothered. You've only had a drink. You ain't the end of the world. You've not hurt anyone. You've swallowed half the pool. But you've got to clear that out of you. But where's your insurance? Because the ambulance needs paying for it, the doctors, blah, blah, blah. And he went, oh, Gaffer, I'm sorry. Oh, no. I went, where's your phone? Ring your wife. She's going to have to pay for this. please don't tell her. I went, well, now we have a serious problem. Where's your credit card? Because you've got to pay. I haven't got, it's five grand it was.

1:37:52So I went, I am not doing it for you. I would have done, but I said, we're going to keep you in overnight anyway. I'll see you tomorrow and see where it works. So, and I wanted to keep him as a player. He weren't being let go. So, chief exec I was rooming with, he, he, he, he was smashed at the time. He was absolutely smashed. And we told him about this. And he was like, we gave him a Mars bar to pick up. There was a phone, the chief exec. And he took us at the Mars bar. So funny. He's going, is you all right? And I'm going, oh, the video is brilliant. And anyway, the next day we went to see him.

1:38:31He went, do you want to keep him? And I said, yeah. And he said, right, well, I'll loan him the money and he can pay me back over the season. So, but it was so fun. My life, I said to him, you're the only player I want to get insurance. And it's happened to you and you haven't done it. That's when managing people is not always about football. It was funny. That Newport team were amazing. Those people at the club who worked there, they've been there years. They said, Tony Gilbert and Bobby Morris, the guys who worked there, the stalwarts, you're the 28th manager in 28 years. And I said, I'm not going to be number 29 to get sacked.

1:39:10No regrets? A little. A little about... I'd like to have been part of the journey a bit more, but I would like to have had more in terms of being able to be a better coach, a better manager. You know? It was hard. We were always non-stop trying to find somewhere. We trained on a pitch once when the kids were having airborne repeaters. firing at us and we're all ducking we're training the kids in Newport were firing these fireworks and everything at us I'm going this is not professional there's cleaning dog shit up but there's dodging fireworks holding fireworks and pointing them at you to hit you and you're flying across that's nuts isn't it it's bad but there's no regrets because I think things happen for reasons and you know that was a time for me to go and take on that challenge certainly not been one for shirking responsibilities and challenges yeah they've come they've come okay do you prefer being a manager or the stuff that you went on to the director of football type of thing I think if I hadn't of thought about my life after all the shot for me was amazing I had it running completely absolutely out the dressing rooms the pitches the training ground the players our job was to stay seventh from bottom fifth from bottom we were never going to go up we never had a big budget we took them to the fourth round of the FA Cup fourth round of the League Club played Man United beat West Ham away finished 11th and I had it running exactly how I wanted it to run and then Chris, the chairman, said to me a couple of weeks before, they're bringing in the new guys, these new ball coming on to support us and I thought, oh, something's wrong here and there was an agent involved in the club and he knocked on my door and he said, hello, buddy.

1:41:20And I went, oh, no, oh, no, I'm going. And he said, no, you're not, no, you're not. and I went, I know who you want in and I know who you're agent for. I said, so I know. I said, but wait till the end of the season. Let me do what I've got to do because I've got it running really well and I think you'll get relegated if I left. No, no, you're not leaving. Two weeks later, played talk here at home, beaten 1-2-0 on the night, on Tuesday night and I'm trying to sign two centre-fours the next day and made the phone calls and then the phone rings and he goes this guy says hello buddy we took the club over last night the chairman's Chris McKayla's not longer in charge anymore we're going to go in another direction thanks for your help and I was like you're sucking me on the phone I was here last night and we won and I was like really?

1:42:19I said but by the way I've got a contract I turned down two League One clubs to stay here and Chris McKayla loves me and I've kept the budget everything I've made you money I've made you a fortune and why why are you doing it now and he just said well we've got our plans you're not part of that the new owner wants us to do this thing I said you'll get relegated no we won't no we won't I said I'll tell you now then players play for me I said but now you've said it we're we've gone it's not going to be repaired and I said, you do your thing and I'll do my thing, but you owe me my contract, which then got messy with LMA and they looked after me, the LMA.

1:43:01But that was a shame because I'd like to have been carried on to the end of the season if it was going to happen because we were doing well. We had a good team, we had some good players. And then I had this moment to myself where I went, I'm never getting sacked again. No one's ever going to sack me. I don't want a contract anyway. I said because there's nothing worse than being unable to get out of something you don't want to be in or someone ringing you up on the phone and sacking you. I don't want to be sacked, so I've never had a contract since. Did the lad take over that you thought was going to take over?

1:43:37Yeah. Did he? He got relegated.

1:43:42Feel quid on that. I did. And it's unbelievable. I can't imagine there's any worse way of being sacked though than putting all the work in. you've built the foundations of everything. My life gave it all. Rug just gets pulled. Four nights a week away from home, down there travelling at five in the morning, getting there at eight for being the first person in there and doing the players right and looking after players and dealing with everything. And Chris would come in and go, you're the only guy in this club who gets a budget right and the three groups of budgets and things like that. Everyone else is up in the air.

1:44:12They're spending money, left, right and centre. And I went, well, they're ripping you off. You know, these guys are taking them, they're putting their loans in and then they're ripping you off. But, you know, that's business. That's the other side of football, business. Yeah. And that's a shame, you know. I can imagine. Like what you're saying, you went for a bolt and everything. It's difficult to trust people, I imagine. Just a little bit, yeah. Just a tad. But, you know, I don't regret any of those things I've done. I made the best friends when I went to move to Bolton. My friends in Thornby, a fellow called Mike McComb, who looked after me up there, Paul Adams, they were amazing for me.

1:44:49those guys, non-football people, but Everton fans, are still friends with them now, go away with them on golf trips and, like, friends for life, you know? And you just meet some genuine people as well, don't you, in your life? We've not even spoke about, like, the nightlife in London back in the day, were you? We've not even touched on it, have we? Do you know what I mean? Because back then it was proper for Premier League footballs and that. Yeah. Yeah, it was good. On that note.

1:45:26Former life. Cheers, we really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Really enjoyed that. Cheers. Thank you very much.