Mark Clattenburg | "Chelsea Wanted Payback For John Terry"

39:28They just think you've made a decision. you've cost Crystal Palace the cup. No, I didn't cost Crystal Palace the cup. Let's get that right. At the end of the day, Alan Pardew has an effect. The players have an effect. What about the player that didn't pick up the player for the equalising goal? What about them dropping, the coach dropping a player? What about other things? There's a lot of other factors in the game, but the fans automatically hit the referee. We've got a brand new message from NolVPN. and I know whatever he's thinking did the lads make it home from Benidorm okay yes they did oh yeah a few injured injured soldiers but they all made it home yeah and Stickleborg stayed up this season it was because we've been keeping up with it haven't we thanks to our NordVPN bouncing our location over to Denmark aren't they from Denmark yeah we'll go with Denmark yeah we'll go with Denmark because if you don't know what NordVPN is you can bounce your location to anywhere in the world can't you and keep up with your sports your tv shows you maybe you want to buy something get it a bit cheaper give you somewhere else in the world flights is a good one yep yeah i did watch yannick sinner versus dimitrov in the algarve last week the main thing was within 45 seconds i was on vpn job messing about and you didn't even need to worry about anybody in the hotel or anywhere in the local vicinity hacking into your accounts because you're on a public Wi-Fi.

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42:24Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see calsheet.com slash regulatory. Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. Was there ever a point that it got too much? was there ever a time within your career that you thought I'm done here probably over Mikel's situation I didn't want to come back I wanted to finish refereeing after that because it was an absolute disgrace what happened from all sides but as a human being you've got a family, I had a child I've got a mortgage if I'd left, what could I do I didn't have you know I wasn't earning 10 grand a week 15 grand a week i was you know 100 just over 100 grand a week when i was a referee in the premier league yeah which was a good salary yeah which was a good salary but that was my career short career so i've got to earn as much as i can in my short career a bit like the football thing wait in it probably going to be but i didn't have anywhere to go i didn't want to come back what happened with orby mccall where i was accused of being a racist or i was supposed to call him a monkey and uh i was uh it was after the match chelsea man united and uh took around about a month of investigation by the fa chelsea chelsea made a allegation that the first allegation was i was supposed to call the uber mckellen monkey and then i was supposed to call the one matter a spanish twat which they dropped that but then they kept with the the moment of uber mckellen it was interesting because for the first few days i was like I couldn't eat, drink or anything because I'm thinking, have I done it?

44:22You know, you go through that. Questioning yourself. Questioning yourself. And then I watched the game back and I was watching it back and I'm thinking, when could it be? Because you would see a reaction surely. If I said something to you that you weren't happy with, you would react, of course you would. Maybe a gesture, maybe something. And I couldn't see a gesture by anybody. And then I think it was about three weeks later. That's how bad it was, Chelsea. Three weeks later, they give us the moment. It was interesting that there was a break in the footage, the sky footage, when they used the moment.

44:54So Van Persie had shot over the bar. And what you do see when they bring the camera back was Auburn McKell in the distance with me. And they used that. That was the moment. And luckily enough, the FA were clever and used the cameras that they used for their pitch monitoring if a fan runs on the pitch for arrest. So the FA asked for the cameras. Chelsea reluctantly give them the cameras and the cameras the moment that I was supposed to have said it I think it was Ramirez was the one that was alleged to have heard it on behalf of Orbe Miquel Ramirez had his back turned to us and Ashley Columway and Rooney were right next to us and both players got investigated and interviewed and both players said I never heard anything so it ruined you that couldn't it but it was it was like hard coming back I remember going to Southam and how it was coming back about being booed and stuff and I remember coming back on the Wednesday night at Southampton.

45:45I choose a Wednesday night. I was fourth official at Tottenham. And then I was... That's what we're asking. So do you know in this three-week period, did they take you out of the line and fire? Yeah, I never had a game, which affected my bonus and my salaries, of course. But to be fair, they said, do you want a referee? How could I referee? I was in bits. I was like mentally gone. But they had press. People think it was interesting because Bruce Booker was the chairman of Chelsea at the time. He came to... Because we're going to... As a group of referees, we're going to strike. We threatened to strike because we felt that the behavior of the football club wasn't correct, you know, and the Premier League were involved because it was a stakeholder, you know, we're both, Premier League was in the middle of this situation, Chelsea and me, the refereeing.

46:28And Bruce Buck came to St. George's and I remember him sitting there and he came in the room and he tried to shake my hand. I didn't want to shake his hand. I had no respect for them, you know, no respect for him as an individual because they could have handled it differently. They could have done everything behind closed doors. And if I'm guilty, I'm guilty. I get sacked and then reveal it. But to leave us out high and dry with media outside my house every day of the week and be accused of something I hadn't done was tough. And he turned around and the referee said, I can't remember who was the spokesman.

46:59Somebody said it and went, you know what? It wasn't right what you've done. And he turned around. He said, what's the problem? He says, we're duty bound to report it. He said, it doesn't matter anyways. He says, you live in a gated community. And Wall looked at each other and went, I mean, fucking what world does he live in? Gated community. We're not fucking football players, man. Could you turn to anybody at that point? I know you mentioned that, Kalina, you were really close to. Nobody, everybody went quiet because everybody thinks you're guilty. Yeah. Immediately, everybody thinks you're guilty.

47:25I think the thing with that is as well is you're guilty until proven innocent. Yeah. As opposed to being innocent until proven guilty with that sort of stuff. Yeah, I remember referees, ex-referees coming out saying, maybe he's guilty, he should be sacked. like and you it's all played out but the worst thing is you're not allowed to speak in parts so you've got to stay quiet because the media is working with the premier you couldn't trust media i couldn't trust a journalist for example to to push things out now in a different world now that i've finished i know how the power of how media can work and how they can get it out and support you and but at the end of the day the media was working for the premier league they're working for Chelsea, you couldn't trust anybody.

48:05But in the end, after about a week or so, the journalists, one by one, were like, they knew what was going on, they knew what was happening, and they knew how it was going to play out. But unfortunately, we had to follow everything. But who was the, Mike Riley, were either chairman of the PGM, or whatever it is. I didn't drink too much Peronian tea. To be honest, PGM, I don't even know what it is. Professional Games Match Official Limited. I've always struggled with that. But, and how were he? Quiet at first. So is he distancing himself from it all? Yeah, I mean, not distance, but everybody's like, till the finding, like I remember the first couple of days that we're getting people to lip readers on the Sky footage.

48:48They also interviewed the two. I said, that was what was bizarre. And I've got no problem with it. I told you before we start this podcast about my time in China, I haven't got a problem with cameras being everywhere. My audio's being recorded. UEFA used to record your audios, which was great, because if you're going to get accused, go and listen to the audio, and then it can be dealt with in seconds. But PG and well, probably because of data protection or whatever law we have, probably we didn't have it recorded, and therefore it's our word against theirs. So they interviewed the fourth official, the two assistants, and all of them said, I never heard Mark say, and I'm guaranteed refereeing the way the refereeing world is, they would have put us under the bus if I'd done it.

49:30They would have said, oh, yeah, Mark said it. but not one of them said, you know, I'd said it. So then I felt, okay, then that's one step forward. You still doubt yourself, but then Chelsea are so adamant and they're briefing all the media that I've done it, but they couldn't tell us the moment. That's when the media started to turn going. If you can't tell us the moment of the game, something's not right. Do you think Chelsea were at the point where, sorry, because Chelsea were at the point where they've got to back their player? I can speak now. I don't believe it had anything to do with that.

50:02I think it was a payback. I honestly do. I think it was a payback for John Terry and Anton Ferdinand, QBR Chelsea, when John was accused of saying some words to Anton. And the balance of probability is different with the FA to the court, the law, the English law. So English law is beyond all reasonable doubt, where the FA has a possibility. So had John Terry possibly said it, so they charged him and he was found guilty. So it's like a lesser charge. So he was charged and I feel that was a payback to try and get the referee in because it was a controversial game. I'd give a goal, the assistant didn't give an offside and the third goal was controversial.

50:51Also, I'd sent off Fernando Torres for a dive, which after already sending another Chelsea player off earlier in the match, probably wasn't the most clever decision to make. But I'm talking about black and white decision. It wasn't. I could have played on. I didn't have to give a yellow card for simulation to reduce them to nine men. I could have just played on because it wasn't such a blatant dive. I think Sky showed he might have got a little touch on his toenail. But the clever decision would have been to play on. So I'm probably guilty of enhancing the tension. but the goal was an assistant referee's judgment I can't give it he's made the judgment call and you know they were probably upset the result it was a volatile game and I just felt like they went bang I'm after the head I'm after the referee because I didn't know I'd been accused of anything and I'm talking probably what 45 minutes to an hour after the match I'm walking through Heathrow Airport and it's on me phone breaking news how can that happen I've left the stadium only because the first you saw of it Because the drug testing was next to our dressing room at Chelsea, and there was a bit of commotion outside the dressing room door.

52:01So I opened the door to think, what the fucking hell is going on here? I opened the door, Oben McHale come bursting through, and then he started swinging punches. I ducked. And he tried to pin us against the wall, and I went, fucking hell. I don't know what had gone on. I didn't know. Maybe somebody had accused us at that point. But what was weird was I remember like Steve Clark, I think it was not Steve. Who was it? Who was it? There was Eddie Newton and who was the other guy? The coach, I can't remember now. Holland? No. Steve Holland? Eddie Newton was the second coach. I can't remember who the coach was now.

52:41And I remember like everybody just went like white, you know. It was like, fucking hell, what's just happened there? Funniest thing was, putting a funny side of this, about 30 seconds later, there was a knock on my door and I'm thinking no I'm not a fucking game over Mikel's coming through the door and I opens it and it was one of the security guys he went over Mikel's left his flip flop in the dressing room can he have a back how idiotating the fucking face so I never thought nothing of it and then we had a delegate so the delegate was like an ex-player an ex-coach the Premier League employed him so he came down which was surprising he didn't come down straight away but that was another argument he comes down and I think he'd been spoke Chelsea had spoken to him and I think that moment of the assault or an attempt at assault because he never laid a hand on his but he swung a couple of times was they're trying to i don't know if they're trying to think fuck we're in trouble yeah he's going to report and all the match observer was talking about was what i was going to report nothing about racism nothing all was it about was what i was going to report what happened in the dressing with over mikhail and then it was like an hour later i was accused of being a racist all right are you just thinking over Mikel's coming in here swinging at me?

53:51Yeah, because I thought that... I know the game was volatile and there was a lot going on. I don't know if he was upset with the result and just lost it. Had he been drug tested? You know, because players didn't like being drug tested. So maybe he couldn't go to the toilet. You know, all these little things, you know, upset people. You know what I mean? I thought he was just upset and I've got in the line of attack by opening my door, you know. And because he's bursting, swinging, I'm thinking to myself, what the fuck's happening? Because he shouldn't even get near the dressing room with the security because Chelsea have a lot of security always had a lot of security so where did the security go?

54:24Big bugger in Ireland but at this point I think it was Dimitri was the coach I think at the time at this point you've got Obi Mikel coming in your office not knowing anything about what's going to transpire later on and you've got a player swinging punches at you yeah he got charged three matches about a month later after my investigation went on but one of my arguments I got told you know the the the fa said that they felt you know that they want players to report racism i'm i'm a big back of that i think so it should be i've been involved where player is accused another player on the field of play and i had to report it uh norwich leads so you have to act in protocols but what i didn't understand was like why oba mikhail who's made an assault against a match official only got three matches but you can go and commit a foul on the field to play and get the same punishment i'm not saying you've got to support refereeing but you've got to look at also that the grassroots you know these guys are refereeing junior football senior football and these guys are going through difficult you know when i first started refereeing after i had a referee sunday morning football wasn't about laws of the game it was survival because they were pissed everybody was pissed from the night before and you had to survive and you're managing that you know you you came off and then if you could come off with as many people as happy as possible that's what made you you think of god i probably haven't applied all the letter of the law but if i'd applied the letter of the law i probably would have had in seven verse seven i couldn't do i couldn't do you that i wouldn't i couldn't you know the scrutiny i mean just going back to what you know you mentioned Danny Simpson before the I always saw that as you know you could have a bit of crack and then but it's all about how it's construed and how it can be twisted you know you could say something like that tongue in cheek but then take it out of context and you can spin whatever you want with it but everybody's got what I find now is the world has got such an opinion everybody's got an opinion they don't want to listen to anybody else's opinion and that's the way it's gone now like even if you say wait i've done this you'll always get somebody twisting it either your way you've said it the words you've said it how you've said it and they'll form everyone opinion it doesn't matter what you say and like i've said things in the past like in the heat of the moment and people will say why oh you've just i remember like it was tongue in cheek, but it was like a payback time.

57:01And Vergy was always going on about added time. And I added six minutes against Man City and they got beat 6-1, you know? And it was right. Vergy had a go at it because he was upset that his team had conceded three goals in the last six minutes of injury time, which he believes he wanted to get off, you know? And people think, well, you shouldn't do that. Well, hold on. I mean, A, I'm a human being and B, I could add the time on anyways. I'm the sole keeper. And there was a bit of time on, but normally if the game's 4-1 or 5-1, one of the rules is refereeing. was to finish the game. Yeah, because you didn't want players getting injured.

57:34You didn't want players getting sent off. Players didn't want to play. You know, how many times you would say, I used to get, I'm not naming players, but they'd be getting beat 2 or 3-0 and they would come to you and say, Mark, fucking blow up. I'm not going to go to a fan and say, fucking Jimmy here has just told us that I should finish the match. But I had a situation and I got a letter from the Football League and I remember the game was West Brom and I can't remember who they were playing. And it was a televised game on a Saturday, like the half five kickoff or whatever it was. And I remember the game was 4-0 to West Brom.

58:07And the ball, there was about 20 seconds left and the ball went into the corner. Straight away, I'm thinking, fuck this. This ball goes into the corner. I know what's going to happen. Somebody's going to come fucking sit at them through and I've got a mass ball to deal with. So what am I doing? I'm thinking to myself, fucking 20 seconds. I'm going to finish it, yeah. Because 20 seconds isn't going to influence any. You can't go up to one end or the other. and the only thing West Brom are going to do is they're not going for an attack to think where they're going to score a fifth goal. They're just going to time away.

58:33So they ran it into the corner and as he ran it into the corner, there was about 12 seconds left. Now, every player shook hands. Because before he got into the corner, there was no issues. So the game finished. Everybody shook hands, walked off. I got a letter saying I finished the game 14 seconds early. What the world's like? Technically, yeah. But from a management point of view, what the thing, I should go and deal with a leg break and deal with a mass brawl and then people say, oh, you've lost control of the game. I'm using common sense, but we've lost that now. There's no common sense now in football.

59:04You don't want to play getting sent off. You don't want to play with a broken leg. You're trying to manage everything that goes on. And I remember that situation. I remember Gus Hiddink, for example, and this was a good wake-up call for me. I was a young referee, and Gus Hiddink was the Russian national team coach and they were playing in Holland. And it was a really nice game to referee as a young referee. you know friendlies were always easy because players didn't a didn't want to play and b nobody wanted to get injured so you never saw a bad tackle and me being a young referee i was trying to be politically correct and it was 2-0 and i played four minutes injury time and i gave a penalty to holland netherlands 3-0 correct penalty not an issue 4-0 and gus hitting came to me on the pitch and he went mark he said i really think you're a really really good young top referee really good he said but i'm going to give you some advice he said why you play that injury time he said there's no need he says two nil he says i go into the press conference nobody bothered now i've got to go into the press conference at four nil and i've got to explain why we got beat four nil and i'm thinking to myself fair point really fair point it's a friendly nobody wants the injury time except me because i'm being politically correct not the players didn't want the injury time.

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1:02:39find more on Facebook. So, you know, in that 2016 season, you've done the FA Cup, you've done the Champions League final. Going into the Euros, are you one of the only Englishmen praying England don't do well? I knew I had more than half a squeak because the feeling around the camp was quite strong that if England hadn't qualified, I had a big chance at the final. When you say the camp, you mean the refereeing camp? The refereeing camp, yeah. So the words coming out of Pierre-Louis's, Kalina's mouth when we had meetings after the games was always positive. And I could always say, and he said something to us and it always sticks.

1:03:19And he says, you're not on holiday, which means keep your head down. You've stopped cracking jokes about you. So I remember going to the pub. He said fuck all about his daughter this time. Whoa, she's beautiful. So I remember going out, I didn't drink, but went to the pub because I just wanted normal food. I wanted to get out and just get away from the camp when we group the referees. you know like who was there was anthony taylor andre maranine me two assistants and we had a table in front of the uh the screen there wasn't many people in because i think the game was in paris and i didn't go to the game i said you wait because you wait if i was short on tickets i said we'll watch it in there we'll watch it in the pub but there was some you wait for referee committee members in the bar as well which was good you know and then at the end of the game when England lost, they went congratulations.

1:04:06So I had a feeling what was happening behind. And the guys were getting excited. Everybody was getting excited in the camp. And I remember looking at flights and hotels for the misses to think we've got a chance. But I always put them on a cancellation, 48-hour cancellation in case I didn't get the game. I didn't get my money back. But I was booking stuff behind the scenes and I thought, wow, I've got a great chance here. And the next day we decided to go to the fan zone just to get a flavor of what the tournament was about. Because sometimes when you're in an environment, you're stuck in a hotel, you get a bit bored.

1:04:39So we went down to the fan zone and we went to watch Belgium-Wales. And I've never felt so low after the Belgium-Wales game because I knew Wales could affect us. So Wales got knocked out, which everybody thought Belgium would beat Wales. But the way Wales played that night was incredible. But it was shit. Wales could knock me out of the Euro final and then never have that chance again, you know. so I'm panicking thinking Jesus Christ not that I'm booking the flight in the hotel it was more I've got the big chance it's one off you know as a referee you only get one chance I remember speaking to Chris Coleman who was the national team coach of Wales afterwards and I was telling him the story and he was like freaking hell you were against me as well you know you're like we'll get a new suit Matt yeah but I was I've just all I remember when Portugal scored that second goal and it was an incredible feeling knowing that there was no way coming back for Wales at that point.

1:05:32And you know that the next day you're going to be announced to referee. The final is like, wow. After the Champions League final and then the Euro final, a kid from like nothing come from a counter background that was bullied at school. And then you analyse yourself and you go, fuck off everybody. Everybody that's doubted us, everybody that's said some bad words about us. I've done something that people can never ever dream of. I wanted to be a professional footballer like you, but I wasn't good enough. but to walk out in a Champions League final or a Euro final or even the big games in the world.

1:06:08Fucking hell, man. It was like every kid's dream. Was there a come down from it all? You know, it's probably talking about levels here but I remember when Tyson Fury got the world title. He felt like, I've done it now. Yeah. And he lost all of his motivation. He didn't have any goals. Was there anything like that with you? Because obviously you only get to do this once. Are you thinking, it's interesting it's interesting that top top sportsmen say that i found it difficult to motivate myself after that i didn't train very well and i i knew my standards were slipping that's why i took the saudi job but also i knew i couldn't referee the world cup final so i lost all my motivation people said well of course you could referee the world cup final it was impossible impossible to referee the final because you're stupid you're not there was no way i could referee the world cup it doesn't matter if England hadn't qualified.

1:06:56Why? Because if I had refereed the World Cup final, I would have been the most successful referee ever in the world. I would have refereed every final. It's never happened before. Even Piala Rigi-Kilina, who refereed the World Cup final, didn't referee the Euro final. What, they wouldn't allow it to happen? It's just never happened. Because the rest of the referee in fraternity don't want somebody at the top? All I'm saying is, like, it's never happened. And there probably is a reason. they'll know but it's never happened and it was never going I never felt um that I would ever have a chance so therefore I've lost that motivation knowing that I can't go and referee the World Cup final so I'm thinking to myself what's the next best thing for me is to protect my family financially so that the decision to go to Saudi was simple I'm thinking yeah I'm leaving the best league in the world but financially I've set my family up for life if there was a rule that you could bring in to the modern game what would you i've said it i've said it a few times and i'll say it again i love i'm not sure how it's going to be implemented i don't really like the implementation about the goalkeeper eight seconds if i'm honest six seconds it never got it never got really implemented but what it was was it got the ball in play a little bit quicker than normal so if you didn't have a time the goalkeeper would take 30 40 seconds it's never eight seconds it'll be 12 13 i never thought that was an issue where i believe there's an issue and one thing you can't solve is time wasting or absorbing time a goalkeeper getting injured and you know that they're not injured you know you know what's going to happen when a team's under pressure what's the simplest thing as a coach what you're going to do to your player you're going to tell your goalkeeper to go down injured.

1:08:40But one thing that really irritates me as a fan is the time it takes to take a corner and a goal kick and a throw in. And for me, the simplest way, it wasn't to give the referee the power. It was to have it in the rules that gives the referee, like the six second rule, a bit of tolerance that in the past, if a player takes a throw in and it's late in the game, what does a player do, he used to laugh and I never used to fall for it. So a player used to walk up the touchline, known, what's the referee do? Go back. The player's laughing and he's in the back of it going ah, that worked. He goes up the line again, he'd probably take a yellow card because he knows he's only had probably one or two in that period of time, so he's not on the five yellows to miss a match.

1:09:28He then gets a yellow card, by the time the referee lobs his book out, gets his pen out, puts your number in, puts it back away 45 seconds have gone it never gets added on so for me the easiest situation is if a player you know what he's doing he's going up the touchline he doesn't take it from the right position I don't want to yell a card for that send him off no just give it the opposite way just if you don't take it if you don't take it give the possession back to the team they'll soon get the ball in if you threaten to reverse the decision the only way a referee could have that power years ago well you still can do it you let the player walk up the pitch and I used to stand there and I used to know he was time-wasting and when he threw it in, I would say, you've gone from the wrong position, opposite way and the player would say to me, you can't do that.

1:10:15I'd say, I can in law. You've took it from the wrong position. See, you understand, they knew the message and it was the same with corners, corners and goal kicks. You see them trotting over for a corner. If you take too long, corner coming in, no, it's not coming in, the walk or no, give a goal kick. Same with the goal kick. If a keeper takes too long, you give a corner. You never see it happen but at least you know the game's getting moved on a little bit, because we need more minutes for the entertainment. Lords, we've got to ask because we'll get shot, but about the Battle of Goodison? Yeah, another bad day of the office.

1:10:46Do you look back and think, I wasn't the best at a certain game? I didn't know at the time. I didn't know because it was weird because I'd just refereed Man City two weeks before Man City, Man U. Then I refereed, I think it was Tottenham Arsenal, and then third week running, I was refereeing another derby. And I'd never refereed the derby before. And I was ill-prepared. Manchester derby is different, completely different. There wasn't that ferocity, that hatred. Same with Tottenham Arsenal. A lot of, yeah, there's rivalry in the fans, but the players seem to know each other, that respect. With Liverpool-Everton, it wasn't.

1:11:23It was like proper fierce. And did I get everything right? No. Did I get blamed for things that I had done? probably like the Steven Gerrard people think I put my card away I hadn't you know um but the looking to to hit you should I have sent out Dirk out now watching it yes but I was influenced by a person who was closer an assistant referee who was closer he said thought it was a yellow card and I took his judgment should have took my own judgment and give a red card um but the last minute if i'd seen it and give it to finish the game 2-2 or potentially 2-2 i probably would have got away with as much criticism as i did but because i didn't give the penalty um for les scott's charles yeah carriga's challenge on les scott i just don't see it and the player runs across us if i because i didn't give it everton lost 2-1 that two players sent off everything went Liverpool's way that day at Goodison.

1:12:24And that's what created the huge hatred. I didn't referee Everton for quite a while. That was not my decision. That was the Peach and Wells decision that they felt that I couldn't referee Everton for so long. But then it was amazing. I went back after, what, six, seven years. I remember the first time I went back, Aston Villa, Everton, the fucking hatred. You know, my diagonal system at Aston Villa, Villa Park was class that day. I was on that side because I was on that side and it was just hard because mentally in the back of your head you know the hatred towards you and you know that everything that I do in that game was going to receive a lot of hatred but I got through it and then after that I went back to Goodison still got a lot of abuse name got mentioned on the loud ton I had the fucking boos but then I refereed some incredible games after that you know and I remember when they beat Man City 4-0 beat Man United 2-0 you know a lot of situations where they won some great games at Goodison, but unfortunately nobody remembers them good games.

1:13:25They always remember that one game, you know, and that's quite ready. So it's a derby, you know. Is that right? Bellamy grabbed your mickey in the tunnel? No, that was another game there. No, that was, so I was refereeing Bolton City. That could be construed as a... No, that was after it was next game. So I refereed Bolton and I cautioned him for dissent. I could have sent him up, but I cautioned him for dissent. I remember speaking to a club official and I said, how do you put it with him week in week out and they fucking put it in the media the next day crazy man what happens in football but they decided somebody decided it'll leak it and I was like fucking petty you know what I mean like I was only asking like fuck how do you put it with him because he's a handful you know and then I sent him off for a dive and when I watched it back it was probably a bit harsh but it wasn't a bit harsh yeah it was a bit harsh and he never forgives and I never forgive it me and him just didn't get on you know and next time I was refereeing, I went to Man City and he was in the tunnel and he said something to us and he was standing next to us and he said something like a fucking wanger or something like that and just grabbed me balls.

1:14:29That is still the funny side. To be fair, he was right, you know what I mean? There's no point being arse. He was right, you know what I mean? I probably shouldn't have sent him off but, you know, what happens happens, you know. It's like he dealt with it, I dealt with it and we moved on, you know. We've had Jeff Winter on. Yeah, I've seen that, yeah. And do you agree with his view on, Graham Paul yeah do you know yep there's loads of stories but keep them there Geoff was never squeaky clean there's always stories you know what I mean it's like one thing I remember when I was when I was in that that group when I first got on the Premier League in 2004 it was such a laugh a great laugh so fun you know we worked together as a group you know you knew Graham Paul was always going to referee the big games but it was it was brilliant you know everybody it was just a laugh and then it changed yeah we'd have a beer together or there would be little beer groups but we had fun and it changed over the years you know and then when that old group left the younger generation were different you know it was like there were athletes that were like 2 % body fat and we had 50 % body fat it's a bit like footballers that went through the way innit yeah it's just different and you know what I lived in that era and I lived in both eras and you know but I did you know Jeff they were such big characters and I was a young ref I'm like and I was refereeing some big games in my first year and they probably were like fucking who's this little whippersnapper you know but no I remember a little story man because I used to be big mates with Phil I used to always room with Phil and Keith Hackard was my boss for Mike Riley and Keith said we're doing a weigh-in end of season wow was it me i was fucking massive when i was on the premier i was like 90 odd kilo i was fat a right little fatty and uh for a for a ref it was a stupid you know you they want you like like an athlete and me and phil were like phil was a big size as well you know but phil was a character great laugh with him and uh he says oh we want you to be measured after after your lunch which was a stupid time to be weighed in you know what i mean but i think but he was going to fine you if you came back heavy so I think he was trying to help you out get a big feed in weigh in as heavy as you can so me and Phil people were running up the stairs getting the weight in and then down me and Phil were strolling up the stairs with a big bowl of fucking chips and we're eating the chips till we're weighing we get weight in heavy we were the only ones that didn't get fined we were the only ones that didn't get fined because we couldn't get any bigger you know what I mean came back later and Keith's like oh I used to have worked hard in this morning didn't we fuck Classic That was a laugh That wouldn't happen now That wouldn't happen now Going back all the way So the whole football career That you had The refereeing career That you had Would you rather be a Looking back A championship footballer For 12 years Or the referee That you end up becoming And playing Refereeing in Euros And finals Tough one now Tough one now Because I think playing would have a if you were if I was a really like a good championship player you know it's it's a complete different you're with 11 people you've got a family I mean a family a footballing family around you you've got your teammates you get together every day you've got a purpose to go to training you've got a purpose to go to the games refereeing is a soul a very soul searching life you you meet up every two weeks for a day and a half you never see anybody else you go to the games your two assistants your fourth you do the game you leave so you're not really you know you're not really got anybody around you um but what i probably did in my career the games i did i probably couldn't never had that enjoyment as a as a championship player to referee some like the champions league nights were special you know it doesn't matter what teams that did that music it was incredible like you're just you're standing there going oh man am i referring to champions league final champions league match you know forget the final these matches were like mad like mentally and all like the the money the stake and everything around it you know the kit you know your champions league kit them them moments them champions that was what i probably missed most when i finished the champions league and uh but like going back to question nah probably them nights big nights wouldn't change so with the referee the referee in Rotom yeah no but like even like I remember when did you finish with Blackburn I remember doing a game Blackburn against Wigan you wouldn't have played that the 20s win and it was a Monday night game Sky game and there were protests in the Blackburn Blackburn was a great club always a great club and from the doctor I used to come in and say if you needed anything the people they were like really really the soul of the world like they are they always put beer in your fridge like you know like just no but they were like such an amazing amazing club and I remember going there it was Monday night they were playing Wigan and there was a big protest about the Vengues and one of my assistants Paul Robinson was a keeper of Blackburn and a assistant referee the ball was at the other end and a assistant referee next to doing Paul Robinson who was standing on his fucking own shouting stop the game stop the game I'm like stop the fucking game what are you on about fucking there's nothing wrong there's no free kick play on stop the game there's a chicken on the pitch I went fuck off man stop being fucking stupid the Premier League game you know when you were playing so I turned round I turned round and there's Paul Robbo running around his fucking penalty trying to catch this chicken that was dressed in a blackburned kit he was in a blackburned kit live on Sky Paul Robinson was chasing a fucking chicken around the pitch Did you ever see Tunnel Scrap?

1:20:33Yeah That was It was Birmingham Villa Fucking hell It was proper rocked It was just like A lot of A lot of animosity After the game And them games were like Quite unique Birmingham Villa I did Villa Birmingham as well They were fierce What was the era? I'm trying to think Who would have been involved Where Ashley Young was playing There was being Robbie Savage Was playing at Birmingham With some probably it weren't the throwing one were it where he's thrown it in and it's gone under his foot oh no that was David Ellery there tried to hide behind the fact that he got a little stud on it the ball never changed direction instead of saying that I've made a mistake he was like yeah yeah he touched it no he didn't because if he hadn't touched it it's not allowed is it but he said the goalkeeper touched it to me well aye he saw that from the halfway line but no I remember them games I remember I remember refereeing at once at Villa and I nearly got charged by the FA it was a bit stupid of his but Villa were on the attack it was Neftski that was playing for Birmingham and Ashley Young clashed in the middle of the pitch I think Ashley Young had played the ball off to the wing and they've got a good attack going Villa so me not wanting to stop it fucking these two were clashing in the middle of the pitch and they started shoving and pushing each other so that pushes Neftski out the way the midfielder for Birmingham and puts fucking Ashley Young no I put them in a headlock to release them so they could fucking run away from each other Ashley Young fucking runs off doesn't the fucking ball get squared and fucking Ashley Young scores you know what I'm saying I played a great advantage I shouldn't have touched the player do you know what I mean but me managing that might not be the gladiators role but nobody like nobody really commented because everybody was saying a great goal it was but I shouldn't have handled the player in that way fucking hell I've stopped a mass ball here you know what I mean get in put in there play on one hand play on but nah I think there's so many good memories and that's what I loved about the game.

1:22:29There were so many great times and great memories. Every day you think to yourself, why would you want to be a referee? But every day I used to pinch myself thinking, am I really doing something? I did enjoy, I did enjoy it. And I pinched myself thinking, God, I'm actually doing it. You've got days where you thought, because people used to say to me, why did you get tattoos and that? And I used to think like, yeah, I haven't broke a law. But if I want tattoos, I can have tattoos. You don't tell me what to do. I don't tell you what to do. You know, you've got your own life. I didn't break a law.

1:23:05And it was mainly just like, you know, when you get them moments in your life and you think, shit, fucking, you're really down days. Because refereeing was up and down. And I used to look and think, fuck me, I really did the Olympic final. And it gives you them positive moments in your life. And you think, wow, you know, I did the 2012 Olympic final in Wembley. And you think, wow, I've done all right. you know people might say I was a shit ref but I wouldn't have been that bad if I've refereed them finals if you could referee one again I've got Warwick Davis tattoo because Willow's my favourite film so I think you said I thought you were going to see your girlfriend before getting tagged on his girlfriend as well if you could referee one again FA Cup Champions League Euro 16 Euro final or the Olympics what would you go with it's a tough one I don't want to do the Champions League final again that stress was incredible the athletic go madrid madrid derby is tough it was tough from the day one tough from the first minute and you're just trying to come off as least criticism yeah fucking man i remember going out and the players were like arguing in the tunnel before we even went out because they all wanted to get out and i think was jacquira was singing not you got it was you know it was um one of the singers i can't remember who's singing now and she was she was late coming off a piece which meant the kickoff was getting players were wanting to get out you know and they were getting a bit irate in the tunnel and uh bramos said it was fucking tell her to hurry up and i went you want me to fucking go around there and get off the stage are you fucking stupid and i remember the first thing i went and it broke the ice a bit because there was a lot of nerves by the players and myself you know and you're not trying to show them that you're nervous because you're trying to keep them calm as well and as we walked out i'm fucking shitting myself and all I could think of there was a ball on the plinth and I went to pick that ball up and I'm thinking don't fucking drop it you're wally I picks the ball up and puts it on my arm I'm thinking thank fuck I didn't drop it you know that's what was going on in my head you know bizarre things because the night before you're like having weird dreams you were late for the kickoff I didn't make the kickoff I don't know how you felt before games and I but I would like dream bizarre things like my flight got delayed which means I didn't get to the kickoff 10 minutes after and like stupid things and then like I remember dreaming that I was going to drop the ball and I how stupid dreams I used to have what about needing the toilet I think if I was a ref that would play on my mind need to drop a batch during the game or something no never that because it was Jeff wasn't it Jeff had to do a pre-season game or something no I never never worried about that because like you were so dehydrated anyways you couldn't even go to the toilet afterwards but you know that final because obviously the first 20 minutes they're kicking the shit out of each other I can't remember watching it but I'm assuming it was aye have you got a thingy of how are you going to ref the game before it's even kicked off yeah you don't prejudge because everybody goes have you prejudged you can't do but you've got like a game plan and people say you shouldn't have a game plan it's not a game plan to say I'm going to punish this and I'm going what you're trying to do is you're trying to come through phases of the game and I remember the first 15-20 minutes of that final thing and I hope this calms down it's got to calm down and I'm not looking for a yellow card but I need something to present itself you know you're looking for a stonewall yellow card to bring the players back down to think this is the level and I wasn't finding anything there was nothing but there was niggly fouls there was little moments where you're not going to go in a Champions League final and start laying the law down you're trying to feel your way through and I remember it was the fullback for Real Madrid got cautioned and he was the first caution and it was a standout caution I'm thinking god that's a bit of relief now I've set my marker and there was different phases of the game.

1:26:46I remember the offside, potential offside goal, then the penalty. And there was just certain things like was triggering in the game. Then Madrid Atletico missed the penalty to make a 1-1. And then Carrasco made it 1-1. And then I went to penalties and I can't even remember any of the extra time. I was on zero, energy levels of zero. and I was like shouting to the boys, just help us through this because I couldn't, I didn't even know what day it was. And that's when they were saying, what did I do to Pepe when I was just sticking my tongue out? I'm going, I don't even know I did it. And it wasn't a disrespect about anything.

1:27:21I must've been just so thirsty and trying to get a drink in or whatever. But somebody was saying, I was calling him a pussy, do you know what I mean? Because he was play acting, but it was iconic moment, but I hadn't done it deliberately. I was just like, I don't know what, I don't even know what fucking day it was. Just thirsty. quick pause and play gentlemen to bring a special message from our bestest of friends o 'neill's love the hat by the way thank you and the by the way you know the kits i've seen that are over here in ireland they're all quality they're all like beautiful like really nice kits yeah but none better than the big dog oh yes that's the fella innit like we've said many many many many many many times if you if you've got your own team grassroots looking to sort yourself out with a kit get in touch with o 'neill's four to six weeks from design to delivery and it's not and when we say design you design you can design it yourself just the little details everything it's not like you're just turning out in a red shirt black shirt white stripes or whatever it's you can put the finer detail on as well can't you the quality is unbelievable like a work of art Do you know what's good as well?

1:28:35They're produced mainly in Ireland and Northern Ireland in the factories, so it's locally produced as well. It's not quicker for delivery. Quicker for delivery, but the quality as well. I'm not just saying that it's good. Yeah, it is good. We've been in the O 'Neill shop today, and some of the stuff, well, most of the stuff, all of the stuff, it's incredible. Well, there's a link in the description if you want to get yourself involved with your own team we can't recommend getting your shirts from anywhere else my team won well man have been absolutely buzzing all season if you look good you play good everybody exactly exactly so the link's in the description get your order in for your team and also if you want to get yourself an under the cosh absolutely stunning all four of them that are available check them out Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins.

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1:30:15Do you ever use that stopwatching on Gladiators? No. Somebody said I used it once because it was on the camera and I got down the way up. Mark, stop your stopwatch, it's working. but no it's I think it's all for the effect because John Anderson had a thing legendary what a guy and it was interesting because when I took you know when you leave refereeing you don't know what you're going to do next I suppose like your next player you think what am I going to do next and then I got a phone call and said would like to interview for gladiators I'm thinking of yourself fucking gladiators god my I'll be fucking brilliant with that pugil stick but it wasn't just Oh, no, not that role.

1:30:54But it wasn't just about me. And it was something like, I remember how my daughter felt when she knows you're going to be. For her, it's cool. Her friends watch it, you know? So it's like a cool thing that her dad is like the gladiators ref. So yeah, I did it mostly for them, you know? And I'm thinking, wow, how cool it is, you know? But I remember filming it for the first time. I'm thinking, freaking hell, I don't know what to do, you know? Because it's like, it's new to you, you know? You're used to refereeing. You know what to do. now this was like completely out of my comfort zone and it's just now it's like now into the doing a third series in the next couple of weeks we're going to start filming it it's like part and parcel now you know you know the gladiators they know you and a lot of it's entertainment i think the gladiators when they first came into the show they thought oh it's about winning of course everybody wants to win but you've also it's an entertainment football is the same football is an entertainment business you know and players wouldn't receive the big money they did if people weren't watching it so people have got to entertain you know i remember one of my best friends was a sunday match um with his son and uh next to him was a father and a son and they were leaving with 10 minutes left suddenly we're winning 1-0 my friend says why are you leaving he said i've got to leave he says i've got to get back for gladiators and suddenly we're winning 1-0 with 10 minutes left you know that was amazing that people really loved it and it makes me happy that you know probably now people see me in a different world where the saw is as a referee yeah I still got that bit of hatred but I've got a younger generation thinking oh he's actually he's okay he's got a bit of a character you know they see you in a different light because when you're in a black suit as a referee they think you're like the baddie but I'm not really the baddie I'm just you know trying to play by the rules that's the rule out We had a question, I'm assuming it's the dad that said it, but a question from Harrison Six.

1:32:50He said, which gladiator would you be in an event and which event? I like, say I like legend. I just think. But we're asking, can you take him? No, nah. Because I thought, he's one of these, right? He's a complete all-rounder and you think, he's got to have a weakness somewhere. I don't think he can run very fast, so probably I would do him on Unleash. Yes. If I stretched. I was quite quick as a ref and I think, If I got a bit of a lead, I think, because he's not quick, he's quite strong. So I'm hang tough, hang tough in the wall, he'll beat us easily. But I think in a race, I think I would beat him.

1:33:32I think, but he would cheat because he wouldn't let us win because he's that type of character. He'd fucking run across the course, cheat, and rugby title us. How have you found the ballers? Because none of us have watched it. We just saw you and John Terry going at this. Yeah, but that's been going on for years, hasn't it? No, listen, I like it. It's different. It's street football. I think there's a market for it, huge market for it. I think the way it had been in Germany, and they brought it to the UK with the influencers, with these social media people that have millions of followers, it brings a different market.

1:34:11It's bringing a younger market. and I don't know, I haven't really looked at statistics but what feedback I'm getting is that the younger generation is switching off from the Premier League and the professional football and I think the football have to be really careful not now, but you're always looking to the future and if you're missing this younger market they're not going to change their habits they're not going to go if they're not watching and engaging at 20, 25 years old they're not going to follow a team Therefore, the Premier League, when the older generation move on, there's not going to be that market anymore.

1:34:47And the Premier League have built such a model for years. The model is keep going up and up and up. Eventually, it's going to crash. And they need to make sure that they don't crash to this younger market where the ballers league is wham, bam, thank you, ma 'am. Fighting two minutes. All of a sudden, a player gets sent off two minutes. They have game changers, which is exciting. And they have the excitement. We're watching other sports. And every sport now is looking into making the game as fast as possible. You know, we've seen it with golf recently. Even if we don't agree with it, they're trying different ways to engage the younger market because, unfortunately, the younger markets switch off so quickly.

1:35:27Tension spans us all. And if we're not careful and we don't do something with football, we'll lose that market, and that market's going to be huge going forward. Yes, the Premier League is the big one, but if fans aren't watching championship matches or Scottish matches and they're watching the Ballers League instead then there's something wrong with the demographic of what we're doing going forward and they've got to make sure that they engage with them fans. Do you think the reason for that younger age drop-off as a fan and as a referee could be, you know, he spoke a lot about the black and white and, you know, VAR, everything's got to be on the nose like the soul's gone out the game a little bit.

1:36:07Yeah, I don't know. Listen, we can look back at pathways, like when you were probably in your day, when you played, you had probably a youth team, you came through and you had a chance. I'm not sure that's happening anymore. I think young players, young people now, don't feel they've got a chance in the modern game. And I think if they feel they've got a chance, they get released. You know, there's so many young people getting released now and they're going foreign. Most players coming into the Premier League are foreign. and the young players aren't getting chances. So the younger generation, I think, if they're not getting chances and they're not also the younger, the professional footballer now because of the way the clubs manage them, they're not really engaging on the social media.

1:36:50They're not getting, I mean, yeah, they're showing the lifestyles, but they're not really engaging in that market, that younger market. How, when they're doing interviews, they're told what to say, which means they don't come across like them. like the younger generation want and they want to engage in that. They want to hear players. You know, I remember it was a Cody, what do you call the Everton? Cody Corder. When he spoke, it was incredible to listen. It was like a different person speaking that he actually came across like a breath of fresh air. Like he spoke like a fan as a professional footballer and as a person.

1:37:28And we've got to be careful that we don't because the way everybody's driven the media and they're frightened to say anything. Someone for them kids to idolise. Got your Jordan Pickford's around the corner. But I'm not sure that happens now. I'm not sure them young people, they prefer Mini Minster, the beast. They're watching people like Angry Ginge, watching playing FIFA. They're not watching a Premier League game, they're watching a person playing FIFA because they're obsessed. We don't get it, do we? No, we don't get it, but we've got to be careful because we don't get it. We don't miss that opportunity because we're in this world now where the world's changing all the time.

1:38:05And if we miss this younger generation, you're going to lose them forever. Because we were always, as a child, we either wanted a player or we supported a team. And we supported that team and we followed that team. I went to watch Newcastle from seven years old and I followed them for the rest of my life. If we don't engage, you ask a player, I went, the ballers, who do you support? I don't support anybody. They haven't got a team anymore. They haven't got an identity. So you're losing all of these fans. Yeah, they love the football, but they haven't got a team to follow. Are you enjoying life away from the scrutiny now?

1:38:37I know you've talked about gladiators, the ballers and podcasts now, whistleblowers. You know what? Because you don't have a speaking part as a ref. Never weren't allowed to speak in that. And people said to me, why do you work for Nottingham Forest? One of my biggest things that I never understand in life, I was a referee, but I'm always going to be labelled as a ref. Why can I not go and work for a club? not just pass on my experience of refereeing, but also pass on my experience. Like, for example, the owner of Nottingham Forest is Greek. I spent fucking four years in Greece. I know Greek mentality.

1:39:10I know how he works. I know how the English football works. So it's a mixture that I'm working behind the scenes, working for him. But everybody labeled me being a referee consultant. I don't even think I fucking talk refereeing. So what was the role then? It was more just for him. It was advising the board. because for example there was things he would because he was a passionate guy he wants his football club to do well he was probably going to make decisions that could have had a an adverse effect on himself in the football club and i'm thinking i really want really want to do that because for me that's not an english thing yeah you know like there's some things that he does that nobody accepts like going on the football field that's normal for him going in greece and but we frown upon it because it's not what we're used to it's outside of the the zone of what we expect you know what you know the tweet that he put on about Everton and other stuff that's he's the owner of the football club he can make decisions where he if he gets penalised for it and he gets a financial penalty which he did that's he's got to pay for it but I can only say I don't think you should do that I'm not sure that's a good move because that's not what English expects and he can only tell you listen but in the UK but in the heat of the battle there's some things you can't stop you know when they thought it wasn't the brightest appointment you know I've appointed referees in countries and what you don't do is create any before massive games that are important you know we're not just talking about the top we're talking about the bottom of the Premier League now is so big and teams needed to stay in and Forrest felt that they were getting on the wrong end of some decisions which if you analyzed it there were you know the KMI reports that the PGM well and the Premier League or the sort of the independent board of the Premier League come out which is an ex-player an ex-referee ex-coach put together every week wasn't just our opinion it was their opinion as well so Nottingham Forest were on the wrong end of some bad decisions and Stuart Atwell was renowned on you know as a Luton Town fan Luton Town were fighting Everton and Forest to stay up it was just a stupid appointment to make probably one that was over an oversight by howard webb who was the head of referee and didn't see it in time which means by the time it was advertised and publicized you're not really going to take them off the game you know because it's a weakness but it was an appointment that shouldn't have been made then nottingham forest wouldn't have had an argument i wouldn't have done that because i would have thought you know what you can choose anybody else not let nottingham forest before the appointments are done to have an argument.

1:41:48You're managing a situation and it was a situation that was always going to be a loser because if Stewart give Forrest a penalty that wasn't, they would say you only did that because you won everything or whatever. But because there was three penalties in the game, two were nailed down, one we're going to discuss, that weren't given, then they felt that was a bad move where it felt then it was losing. It just gives an excuse. You don't want them excuses. I've appointed referees. When I was a referee, I didn't referee Sunderland. I didn't referee teams when Newcastle, for example, were fighting in the Champions League or if they were in the relegation.

1:42:29You wouldn't want to referee them games around you because you don't want to be accused of anything. And not mentally or subconsciously thinking about it, but why did it create that? It's not worth the hassle, is it? You can avoid it. Yeah, of course. So it was a decision that shouldn't have been done. But I'm trying to say to him, is that the right thing to do? But there's some things he'd gone that far. The tweet about what he did was out of my hands. But then, you know, I'm allowed to work. I really enjoyed working for Nottingham Forest. They were a great club. And I was passing on my expertise to him.

1:43:01And, you know, he's got other clubs, Olympiacos, for example. And, you know, I saw them win a conference league. You know, they won the conference league final last year. Incredible what he's done. and you know it was nice to be a part of it for a short period of time but again certain individuals were using their media to to push it to get us out and you know it was better me being out of the club where i think every week i was at the club watching the game in the stand and my camera was on me wasn't on the game and i'm like why you know i was i was a referee seven years ago why can i not work for a football club thing is it's it's one of them because come monday if you're recording there's a bad refereeing decision people are going to ask you about that so you're going to end up speaking about it and then you're better off just shaking it off altogether and don't even speak about it a lot of shit he was don't know what he's doing but you see what i think what what refereeing's a bit sometimes a bit shitty was they get very protective and they shouldn't because i never even when i was a referee and other referees used to say about me Howard Webb used to talk.

1:44:04He was working for BT. And Howard Webb would never criticise the person. He's just talking about the decision, what could be better, or seeing it from a refereeing's angle and trying to support the referee's angle. But for some reason, refereeing now, the younger generation, think you're criticising them. You're not. You're just talking about the decision. He's not really in a position, is he, Howard? Did he not get three yellow cards to one person in the final? No, that was Grim Paul. Howard Paul? Yeah. Howard didn't send off De Jong in the World Cup final for that fucking... Karate kick. Yeah.

1:44:38I don't understand. That changed refereeing that. Because when we used to referee finals and pre-season friendlies, we always used to be like, not under guidance, but you didn't want to spoil the occasion. You didn't want to... Friendlies, you didn't want to... Because everybody wanted to play 11 v 11 on a friendly. Because it's competitive. if you want to get that competitive into your game. But then when Coward got criticized for his performance in the World Cup final, because they started wanting perfection, you know, they wanted him sent off in the final. Every referee went, no problems then.

1:45:13If it's in a final, you get sent off. You know, you don't give any benefit. You're refereed to the, not to the laws, but you've got some tolerance. But if it's black and white, bang, you do it. And I think it was a big learning point because even in friendlies, if a leg breaker went in, you sent them off it's not my problem you know and i think we started protecting ourselves because we didn't want to be criticized for for refereeing finals and that was in the finals i got i got probably a little bit criticized because you know in in people criticized like for example there was an offside goal for for real madrid the players are telling at halftime, there was a potential Real Madrid's goals and possibly an offside position.

1:45:56So you're then in another mindset, you're thinking, well, hold on, one team feel wronged. So now as a referee, you're now managing the game, you know what I mean? And then I had a potential penalty where Torres is clever. He gets in front of Pepe by putting his leg in front. Pepe does make contact, but is it a stonewall penalty? No, it's a questionable penalty. It's one where one team's going to complain, the other one's going to complain. and it's one of them you can't win as a ref, sometimes it's best to wave them away. But you're knowing that Real Madrid have had a potential offside goal. You then give the penalty.

1:46:31It then makes a situation where nobody can really complain because Atletico have got a penalty. Real Madrid have had an offside goal. So you're making a situation where if I don't give the penalty, Atletico would say we've been wrong twice. And it's hard as a ref because nothing's black and white. there's still that grey area where you think, is it, is it not? It's a really fine balance as a ref, you never win. Who's the best, modern day in your opinion? They've got two in England, haven't we? The top two was Oliver and Taylor, but both different. Probably Taylor's style is more directed to international football where Michael's style is more, he was more engaging, but I think he's slightly changed over the years.

1:47:17I don't know if anybody's changed his management style or whatever, but I felt he was quite approachable but he's less approachable now and I don't know if he's maturing or he's getting upset or he's not getting the support. He just seems to have changed and I felt he was going to be probably the best referee out there because of his style and the way players respected him. The thing is he might have changed because the players have changed. Do you know what I am? They might speak to him differently. Yeah, possibly. Possibly the younger players I know the younger players don't speak. You know what I mean?

1:47:51I remember like how players used to speak to you. You know, in the end, I remember one player said, I can't remember who it was. And he said to me, he said, you can't speak to me later. You know, and I'm thinking, whoa. You know what I mean? That was an unusual thing for a young player to say that. It was don't speak to us, no problems. Don't come crying when you get your leg broken or a bad challenge, you know what I mean? Because I'm there to protect you, but don't abuse us as well, you know? And if I've said something, I've said it in the right way that I would normally address every player, you know?

1:48:16I never, I'd treat Cristiano Ronaldo the same as Messi as I'd treat a Northern League player. I spoke to them exactly the same. And that's why I think them type of players liked us because I spoke to them the same level. They could relate to me that, yes, they're superstars, but I never treat them as superstars. What's the most big time comment that somebody said to you? You always got the big time, Charlie. You're arrogant. I just signed in Saudi. And the following week I got, I was refereeing West Brom against Bournemouth. and the whole fucking Bournemouth end was singing you've sold your ass to the Arabs

1:48:54that's a big bump but it was funny because I remember doing it was Tony Pulis was the manager West Brom and I'd made three big decisions in the game and when I watched them back I went fuck me they were decent like I got them all right you know and I remember giving an offside the assistant didn't give an offside and I'd give an offside and Darren Fletcher was going mental so he runs over the technical area he comes back and he went fuck me he says you got that one right I looked at him I went that's why I'm going to Saudi fucking so we're laughing so we're laughing and joking and then Pulis was upset after the game fucking the fans were pleased you're fucking off because the little our dressing backs onto that main road as the fans were leaving fucking Clamberg you fucking shit thank fuck you're going to Saudi fuck off and then match of the day showed the decisions and everyone was right the match of the day pundits were all like singing me praise probably because I'm fucking off anyways but because I'd already announced I was going and I was saying he'd be a big miss blah blah blah next week i went to west brom fourth official tony pulis stops he goes mark you said you got all them right i went you didn't think that fucking last week and then and then uh mike riley says where do you want to go for your last game and i said i would like to go to like somewhere in london so i take the family finish it off do you know i mean because we're never going to give us that last week of the season and i was always going to be professional when i was leaving i said i'll stay at the end of the season and then i'll leave and um they said where do you want to go and i says i would love to go to tottenham i always had special memories of White Hart Lane I knew it was getting redeveloped so I thought it would be nice to finish it at Tottenham ended up at fucking West Brom three weeks in a row and I think that was just them to tell you go and get your money and fuck off because I'm leaving anyway so I ended up at West Brom yeah brilliant thank you very much for that really appreciate your time

1:50:43When I count the dabs I've got 14 personalities They're all fighting They're all fighting to get out I don't like that behaviour David you're not joining club You're not going in now They'll ruin you Vieira stamping on me Fights I mean I squared up to Thierry Henry I was playing centre forward that night Squad actually against Man United Rooney Ronaldo Bosh I'm there on the M1 service stations one in the morning with the two dogs me little kinchot Spaniels Pascal Sagan Kolo Touré best fighter I've ever seen on the training ground late every day was a fight well I got booed on my debut for England didn't I he's still trying to find his black and white cat room 222 cheeseburger he's all serious you know and he's like oh my gear and that rig it's all about me main character syndrome thank you

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