Martin Tyler | Clough's Shoe Cleaners

37:58We cut the bad bits out. And then suddenly the bad bits, hang on, we don't know what's going to happen here. It's live. And it is live. And that made the difference that nobody really appreciated. But it was a big day going to that first Premier League game at Nottingham Forest against Liverpool in August 92. we had no idea I just remember Richard Keyes having those blazers type jackets of different colours and I had to get up on the gantry two hours before kick-off which is far too early to do a little bit this is our commentator he's up there and then what do I do now do I go back again we sort of made it up as we went along Was there a camera up there on that first game so the nature could see you introduce yourself or whatever Richard would go our reporter is so and so and he said, and then we've got Martin up on the gantry and I think I'd be up on my own.

38:52Andy would be in the studio probably then and he'd come up later, so Andy Gray. Yeah, it was an adventure looking back and there were no guarantees, absolutely no guarantees. But fortunately, the public came with us, the public decided and the argument always was, look what football you had on television before sports channels. They can't give you that. They haven't got space on BBC, even BBC 2 and ITV and ITV 4 in the end. They haven't got enough space to do this, so you're going to have to pay for it. And it was obviously pretty low to start with, and people were saying, no, it's got more expensive.

39:31But you get the lot, and not only do you get it, you get it fantastically covered. Before, with ITV and BBC, you'd have specialist producers, as specialist directors, but you would not have specialist sound men, specialist cameramen or anything like that. I'd be doing Coronation Street. I worked for Granada for a while. They do Coronation Street in the week. Come and do a football match. And one day I heard this. It's absolutely true. A cameraman said to the match director before the game started, where the players were just doing their warm, he said, which one's Dalgleish? I thought, which one's Dalgleish?

40:06He knows who jacked up with this. With glasses on so it ends up barring rovers. and now they're all and that's what you get they're wonderful people they are people who can sit around this table and tell you much better stories than me because they care about the game and their detail and their love of the actual sport and their respect of the people who are involved in it is total and that goes for all obviously I'm a Skyman and I would talk about them with total love because they were so good to me but But the others, the TNTs of this world and the other channels that show, and obviously terrestrial channels do show some live football now, and they give it everything as well.

40:47So the football public's never had it so good. Quick break in play, gentlemen. That's usually my job, but carry on. Have you heard about TalkSport Bet? No. I know TalkSport. Well, they are our new partners. But as you said, we've all heard of TalkSport. Well, TalkSport Bet are sponsoring the whole of this series. Unbelievable. It's exciting. It's and, like you said, you've just made me aware of it, John, but they're sponsoring the whole series. And, it's another and, as under the cost listeners and viewers, they're providing an unbelievable offer. I'm talking bet£10, get£40 in free football bets.

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41:59I think it's when you said you hope you're not boring us. I think from our point of view, we've gone back to being 10, 15 year old and whichever team you support, you can always put your voice to a certain game. And we're like kids, aren't we? Taking me back anyway. I just remember Monday Night Football, the Newcastle-Liverpool, them games. I'm just excited to watch that. The 4-3s. Yeah. Unbelievable. Liverpool-Newcastle was the best game I've ever done. 1996 version, the 4-3 one. Did you do them both? No, I didn't. Alan had just done your goal. We've just listened to him. Alan did the second one.

42:35He was more excited about them goals, wasn't he, than mine? He's a Liverpool fan. He hasn't disguised that. Some commentators do disguise who they support and I understand why. I've been accused of supporting other teams, but I promise you I've been a Woking fan since I was eight and went to the game. And there are people about my age who come here and vouch for me. Don't worry about it. And I say we won a cup final with the under-18s last night. So I don't have to sort of speak up for that. So I don't have to disguise it, although I've done five working commentaries in my career, I guess. One at Millwall, one nil.

43:18Clive Walker, ex-Sundland. Yeah, it's great. You know how much the commentary means to the players as well, because I know you've spoke about the Doncaster game. Yeah, I was going to mention it, how a commentator can make an unbelievable goal or moment even better or on the flip side, and I won't mention who it was, but it was Soccer Saturday, and it was the Brentford-Doncaster League One. Yeah. The game. The game. The game. Yeah. And it's gone to the man on the touchline that was working for Sky, and he was basically just talking through it in a really monotone voice, and Brentford have missed.

43:59The ball's been cleared. Billy Payne has gone through. Doncaster have scored. 2-1. Back to you, Jeff, of that thingy. And when you watch it, it's obviously a lot more. And it's a massive moment. He's been in media now for eight years. He thinks he can tell people I do the job. I'll show you this, John. I don't want to see any more of your goals. I didn't score it. You know that already. That's like a moment in your career that you enjoy looking back on. Yeah. And it's not quite made to the expectation of how it was in your head at the time. Yeah. The game was covered with highlights though, wasn't it?

44:32Is there not a commentary actually? You're talking about a reporter having to react to the moment they throw to him from the studio. Yeah. Jeff Stelling, the hosting that on Saturday. But is there not a version of the game with the proper... The problem is you can't find it. Will you find it for us? I've only heard the Doncaster radio thing ever. Yeah. I guess we're going back far enough. whereas now every game is covered even by the club, you know. And at Woking we have six cameras on every game. And so it might just have fallen into that gap. I'll do a cheat commentary for you. Oh, thanks. The week after, Martin, was Troy Deeney against Leicester.

45:16Yeah. And that commentary is still being shown today, you know. You know, the thing about that is the subtext of it, really. Harry Kane was a substitute for Leicester that day. He was on the bench and he could have been on to take the penalty. It was a chip. It tried to ding it, didn't it, or something? Knockout. Yeah. Is that right? I think it was, yeah. Collymore closing in? That was the… That was me, yeah. Yeah, Stan Blessing used it as a signature for its radio show for ages. even I couldn't forget it and yeah that was the game I remember we started to talk about that was the special game you get asked lots of questions especially in my time what was the best of this and I'm not very good at looking back in specifics but that has always been Coventry, Man United in the FA Cup semi-final a couple of years ago had the gold been allowed I think that might have pushed it to being right up there with it and that was an amazing game as well but obviously the big you know it wasn't an even contest as as um liverpool newcastle both going for the title and neither of them won it as it turned out it was a man it was a wednesday night game i don't know why it was been played on the wednesday night but we didn't want to go home we loved it so much at the time you know it's easy to look back on it and think but at the time we knew it had been so special and we got the stewards said you've got to go and we're all driving back We were driving back to London or Andy was going back to the Midlands maybe.

46:47We were journeys. And so we found a pub that was open on the ring road out of Liverpool. And we all pictured, I don't drink. I mean, there was no point. I was going to be home an hour and a half later by stopping. And I couldn't wait to stop and enjoy the crack of it and talking about it. And when COVID happened, they did it as a retro game. And I thought, I'll watch it, but I thought it won't be as good as I thought. it was fantastic I watched it with my son actually he'd never seen it he heard me bang on about it but he was five or six when it happened and he went you're right it's the best game you know were you just exhausted after it oh no I was young and fit then I'll be exhausted after this podcast but no yeah it's such a buzz I mean it's the commentator's version of scoring a goal I guess really that feeling of it went it went so well and it had an ending to it if it had finished 3-3 I don't think we'd be having this conversation and they Robbie scored up Rofall scored up after two minutes and then Newcastle equalised and then Liverpool didn't lead again in the match until Collymore closed in you know Is there ever a game where you you get oh I've got I don't mean disrespectful 22 teams I've got Forrest against Fulham.

48:15Do you think... Never. You know what I mean? I know you'd probably expect me to say never, but it's true. Especially if it's a live broadcast, because it deserves the same attention. I mean, the pre-season friendlies are quite difficult. We've had a phase of showing a lot of those where you could need 46-player profiles. Players would come and rotate, and half of them would be out of the academy who you wouldn't know at all, even to recognize, let alone describe them as players. But no, it's the challenge. It's to try and... I respect the fixture. I respect the responsibility. Somebody's asked me to do this game.

49:00I would never shortchange it. And that's when people say, oh, well, the World Cup final must be different. It is, of course, as an occasion, but as a commentary, it's not. The main thing is to identify the players. That's harder in the games that you're referring to, John, really are the sort of lesser games. So you've got to do a lot more work on it. But for example, I'm going to the World Cup for the host broadcasters. And my first game is the Netherlands against Japan. And by luck, Japan are playing England next week. So I've been to England games for a while. So I'm starting my prep for Japan by going to the, the FA have actually come back to me today and said, we think we can fit you in, but I'll be watching Japan.

49:50You know, I've got England after that, but England shouldn't be so much prep, but Japan will be. And all sorts, you start from recognising the players and finding information about them. Bronteation. Bronteation is, Japan is quite difficult because it's all one and the same. Like it's Kamada at Crystal Palace, not Kamada. It's not a distant relation of Chris Kamara. It's Kamada. And, you know, I say it. I can only be responsible for how I say it. I talk to my producers about it. We've got one in the Premier League around the world, which I work for, a very specific about how the players want their names said.

50:35so we get a pronunciation guide from each club players look in the camera they're quite embarrassed about it really you know yeah they'll stand up and be interviewed after a game with no embarrassment and say their name as now sometimes most of the time it's very very helpful sometimes uh historically works against us because it's bruno fernandes not bruno fernandez right but we've only found that out in the last three years and everybody said look we can't change now you've been here and you're top player so Bruno understands that but the blonde Spurs Swedish midfield player signed two years ago and I did his first game the pronunciation guide arrived that morning and Lucas Bergvall is actually Lucas Berrival the G is why like Sven Joran Eriksson the G so I rang the Premier League and said look everyone's going to call him Bergvall what do you want me to do and he said no we've got this policy and they've stuck to it because i did he came on the sub against forest last game i've done but it's very valid for me now what people think in this country they don't hear me unless they've got an illegal stream which i'm sure nobody has and um and uh uh but around the world and then sweden if it goes to sweden at least they get it right and but i think i'm the only commentator who does it because we had uh Jonas Olsen.

52:01Yeah. And he was on about Jokarez. Yeah. And he mentioned his name and I went, who did you say then? And he said it in a completely different way that the commentators were used. Yeah. We've learnt that and of course Victor's said it to the camera now so we've got back. But even if they do, you have to work hard to stick to it. I replay them. They came on the, this year on the 4th of August and an email each one And that's every club, every player. Well, the players are available. The ones are tied. I'm sure Brown should be all right. Brun. Yeah, we miss Simple One Names. It would be a lot easier if they're more.

52:42Ben White is a good one in the news today. Those kind of ones are now the exception rather than the rule. So I've got them all. It's on the start. You can start your email so you can go back and find it. and I go back at least, I would say, once every 10 days. I check Forrest just in case there was somebody that I'd missed. And, of course, with Sunderland, I had to check a lot. I'd seen Tauby. I did Club Brugge last season. It's Club Brugge. We've been told it's not Brugge. Well, I mean, when did Kiev become Kiev? Well, I'm afraid when things happened that they had to report on it from there. There was like an initiative, right?

53:29We're sticking with the native. Well, do you ask us? Any chance I get a chicken Keeve, please? But that is the issue as football and football commentators, we have to deal with all the time. And of course, we never had to deal with that when it was so, when Eric Potts was scoring the winner for Sheffield Wednesday with David Sunley up front with him, Brian Joycey and people like that. Peter Rodriguez had capped in Southampton to win the Cup the following 18 months. He played for Sheffield Wednesday in that game. And it was Rodriguez and not Rodriguez, so we had to learn that even then. It felt like if it was foreign, it would be Rodriguez.

54:04But he's Welsh, isn't he? It's very petty from people watching, won't it? I'm sticking with Terry Henry. I wonder if that's pronounced properly. Who's asked, really? Well, to our profession, it does, because we're judged on it. I would say to the co-commentators, you say what you want. I said, Stephen Warrick, it's Berryval for me, but you say what you want. But he called him Berryval. And I've done a couple of other Spurs games with other people and we've sort of stuck to, if you like, a joint decision on it. He's quite respectful as well, in a way. My name's Tyler and people call me, I've been called Taylor a lot over the years.

54:43And it doesn't actually rankle, but it's not correct. so um worst of all is you get the um the spam phone calls now is that martin taylor no it isn't and for the phone um but so i i think we all like to be you know i mean it's not always possible and some of the dutch names for example dirk kaut told me you can't say my name no english person can say my name properly. The UY or the UIJ in Cruyff. So it's impossible for English people to say. So you have a stab at it and not everyone has the same stab. I think you've got to be sort of willing to... This must be so boring. Oh, no. Talk the opposite.

55:32If a player comes to England and somebody doesn't pronounce his name correctly, I think you've got to have the foresight to think, well, I'm in a different country and people speak differently and not get the umper back. Some of them would take the mickey, like Brentford. We've got this one, Christopher Ajer, A-J-A-E-R, which is Ayer and always has been. But he's gone in and said, Ajer, I saw him quite early in the season. I said, what are you doing with us? He said, well, you know, in England people consider that. I said, we know you. You've been here three years or whatever. Kevin Sharder did one where he called himself Kevin Shade.

56:09I mean, what does he say? He was. And they'd be sitting in the same dressing room saying, how could we mess up the commentator? Have you seen that lad in Germany, German second division? He'll go far. Wanker. Wanker. Yeah. It's a banker though. The W in Germany. He'll always have a smile on his face. That's the sewer. Yeah, that circulated around this week, didn't it? Kraft Mac and Cheese is better than 90s hip-hop. We'll remind you of your childhood without making you feel incredibly old. Kraft Mac and Cheese, best thing ever.

56:48You mentioned self-analyzing before. Is there a... Even doing this, sometimes you're just not quite in conversation, you feel a bit tired today. Do you ever get like that? And have you got certain things that you know what to do to come out of it and turn it on kind of thing? Yeah, a little bit. I think as I've got older, you have to eat properly. You have to eat the right times, not to say the proper food, but the food in the Spurs press room last weekend was unbelievably good. I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't eat that much meat, but it was sliced off by the chef. Beautiful. Absolutely. It's the nicest piece.

57:32so and I think that might help you know I had good protein it's very important for for life anyway isn't it but certainly if you're going to be the one word that if people say you lack that I would be really thinking about packing it in is energy you have to have energy in your broadcast so you can't feel tired you can feel tired but you've got to recognize it um I probably drink a bit more coffee around the time either spell of the energy drinks but and didn't really sit too well and they're very very expensive um so that i think that's the most important thing staying warm um because that does affect you a lot and eating the right things will get you out of that and i think what's in front of you also helps but but the truth is i think football is always interesting even when it's perceived to be dull there's something going there's a reason for it so perhaps the commentator's job to say to the co-commentor do you think for example that Forrest might be more tired because they played on Thursday something like that the game starts see you're trying to see something in a quiet period of play that might might be relevant rather than just throwing a stat in just to say because if you don't speak for too long and they go oh his microphone's gone the sound man and you have to press a button saying which cuts out your on air mic and so and he's saying no no I'm still here it's all working there's just nothing to talk about at the moment I listened to Summit and it was it would send our heads all over the place did you hear the I think it was Kelly Cates doing a live thingy Coates Coates or Cates it's Cates it's Cates it's definitely Cates I hope you've got me thinking now.

59:23If you pronounce her name right. It's not Katesh. And she's. In another language. She's hosting and speaking to the pundits and she's got people talking to her in the air. You have that all the time, yeah. How do you concentrate? Because even watching it, I'm like, I don't know what's going on here. Do you know what it's like when you learn to drive and then suddenly you're not going, I'll put the clutch in and do this and the handbrake and whatever and look in the mirror and suddenly you're doing it. That's what happens with it. When you start, it is real intrusion. And then I promise you within a few weeks, if you don't have it, which we don't if we're doing a game in another country where the director is a local person, and if you hear it, it's a distraction because it'd be in another language maybe, you miss it.

1:00:09You miss people saying, oh, I've got a shot of so-and-so or can you get me a shot of a co-commentary go? I want to see that Spurs back line because they had plenty of back four and they said they warmed up with a back three. And so you can do all that because you've got that relationship. So it's going both ways. We have the power not to reply on air, although we've all probably done it at a time, but to ask for stuff that helps us as well. So, yeah, I mean, Kelly's, I mean, the presenters, I think it's more difficult because they're in vision. I can just stop, you know, as if I'm drawing breath.

1:00:46Have you got any stories on managers that you've come across, worked with? Ron Atkins has got in touch quite a lot, actually. What I must say at the beginning of this answer is that so many people in football have helped me, honestly. And it's not my right, even if I come from an established broadcaster who paid a lot of money for the rights to show the game, there's nothing to say that the clubs have to accommodate you. Obviously, a lot of foreign managers don't quite understand how commentators work in this country. And some do. Gerard Houllier was fantastic, for one. He phoned me on cup final morning when they beat Arsenal to tell me the team.

1:01:26I'd only had a mobile phone for about a month. I was thinking, if I'd not had that phone, he called me and said, by the way, this is what we're doing today. It was amazing. I was doing the game live for Sky. Just fantastic kindness. Is that what it was? Was that kindness or what was the ulterior motive for him? I think sometimes there might have been an ulterior motive, an explanation of why so-and-so is not playing, in case you get into, why is he not playing? Not I would, but the co-commentator might. I remember Mark McGee did a fantastic thing. England played Scotland at Hampden. Kieran Tierney was put into a...

1:02:07Nobody could work out what the defensive shape was. And Kieran Tierney, I think, if I got this wrong, he didn't play right, he played right of three centre-halves, the most left-footed player that they had in their back, five, if you like. And the former Scottish internationals were working with us. They had no idea. Mark McGee told me. He told me where Tierney would play. And I'll be forever grateful for that piece. was that we didn't, it wasn't smart. We weren't going on and saying, ah, I found out. You could tell the guys, he is playing there. I promise you, I've got it for a win. And I mentioned Stephen Warnock earlier.

1:02:44He had the Spurs team who warmed up with a back three as a back four. He got it right from somebody. And that gives you a lot of confidence because people say, look, there they are, now on the pitch and Spence is playing left wing back in this, but he played right back in the game, at least at the start anyway. So it was kind of trust and everything there. When you look back on them over the years, and there's too many to mention, but I've been far more helped than let down, I promise you. What are you like with all these new words, like the inverted this and defensive block this? It's all bollocks, isn't it?

1:03:21I mean, when I was trying to be a player, it was called getting behind the ball. Yeah, or pressing from the front. It's a high block, a low block, a false block. They took one look at me and said, he ain't going to press from the front.

1:03:37But sometimes in the course of 50-odd years of doing this, people have said, I'm going to put this word into the co-commerce. I'm going to put a word in for my mates, a word that wouldn't normally come up at the company. I want them to know, but I've never did it. I'm corpsing when they do it. Everybody's treating it at face value, and only I know. I think you've got to be aware of what expressions are used now. There's a lot, and the coaches I work with in the working academy talk about being shallow and playing under and things like that, which I have to work that out. I have to translate it into my mind.

1:04:15And I remember playing in a compact way, it was a word, and then the word came from the FA on the courses, we don't use compact anymore. So the vocabulary changes like vocabulary in life, doesn't it, really? and I think if you are there is scope for people to broadcast these days without perceived English without grammar if they get the message across and show their passion and their energy for it it is a risk of being more irritating but there's far more of it and a lot of the people I've worked with co-commentators are not English. Andy Gray to start with, and Ali McQuist, a wonderful power of expression.

1:05:02So it's not so much words. I think it's just following the trends of how society is and remembering that football, it looks as though we changed the world in football, but actually we follow the world. We're right up there and following it straight away and in vocabulary we probably are as well. So I'm probably not as good on the street slang as I should be. I want to say, oh, my days. That's the one I always want to say. A lot of people say of all backgrounds, oh, my days. And I've never seen a goal when I go immediately because you can't write it down and say it. You've got to think it. And so that's something that's an ambition still to be achieved.

1:05:43Can I ask you about a specific story? Am I right in saying Brian Clough got one of his players to clean his shoes? Oh, yeah, not one, more than one. It's still there, I think. It's sort of shale, isn't it, around the city ground? So if you, for any reason, maybe you'd go and watch them train and they were training on the pitch, or maybe I'd be the reporter, not the commentator, so I'd come in after the game. And Brian Moore was such good friends with him if I was the reporter and Brian was the commentator. So I always got taken in as well. and then Cloughy would look at your shoes and go, get me Shilton, get me Trevor Francis quickly.

1:06:28And they'd come in and I'd know them and I'd go, no, you don't have to do this. They'd go, we do have to do this. Yeah, but I think he invented reverse psychology before the term was even coined. And he'd do it with us as well. So you'd get this treatment in his office and you'd think, oh, Brian Clough, he ordered the England International to clean my shoes, my shoes. And then you go to see him the next time and he'd keep you waiting in the car park for two and a half hours, you know. He'd work you as much as anybody else and that was why he was so successful. And it was a fabulous period to be, because he worked for ITV as a pundit.

1:07:09So I saw a lot of him in the times when he was probably the top name that if you asked anybody about football in this country, they'd say Cluffy is the name, Cluffy is the man. You think what he did and what he did. And he even played Mark Crosley who gave you your goal. Give you it. Sorry, Chris, I don't want to devalue it. You scored a Premier League goal. That is something that the rest of us all crave, I promise you. So I think my time has slightly run out. Do you enjoy watching football as much as you used to? yes but in a different way I suppose I have to try and we won this cup last night we played the semi-final only a week ago and the quarter-final the Friday night before the Monday night so it's all quite fresh and we play we've got passing coaches passing philosophy and I don't like it because we get a free kick say in the left back position but over the halfway line and it goes backwards and I think just I think as a forward really if you don't play into me how am I ever going to score if the ball doesn't come in and so I worked mostly with the forwards there but I was berating under my breath really this particular move and we went back centre half, centre half right back, up the right side and we hit the post so I went what do I know and if it had been a goal absolutely what do I know but it is different And we've talked about having two forwards, you know, and I think that's, and the ball being played forward.

1:08:51One, sometimes, I haven't really discussed this, and you might have a view on it, you can recover by keeping the ball. So if you are playing lots of games, you know, I think if Chelsea keep the ball, I do my podcast, Adjoi Football, with Neil Barnett, who's Chelsea through and through, used to be the pitch announcer there. He's a season ticket holder, and he's hating it at the moment. he's similar age to me I have to tell you he's younger because he would be angry if I suggested he was older and so I go to him well you're going for a Champions League place you're still in the FA Cup and what's not to like you know oh it's so boring it's that and the other but I think they are they played all these games so if there is a little bit of thinking of that look we can't I used to think as a fan Woking fan watching as a kid and they were very good in non-league football i was watching we've got a score from every attack we don't have to do we and and so softly softly flick a switch and then maybe you can accelerate your game then but it doesn't sit from what the football i grew up with the question i always ask myself would i have fallen in love with football if i was given it now as the eight-year-old i was when i went to woking 1953 would i would i fall in love with it and i think i would have done because it is what it is it's still a massively um easy thing to follow really the game is so it's a simplistic game as Ron Greenwood the old England man used to say it's only the people that play it make it complicated um and I think it is I think it is watchable in a different way but you have to you have to really rid your mind of the past and just watch it for what it is I've seen some tremendous games this season.

1:10:40I've seen some where I'd be thinking, what, you just asked me the question? What do you think? Bores the shit out of me. Really does. I know exactly what Luke Shaw's going to do nine times out of ten when he gets the ball. And what's that? Pass it to whoever's playing left, centre half. You'll watch it. Next time, man, you'll play it. Nine times out of ten. Bores the shit out of me. Do you know that? I was just thinking, I've got a story to tell you. When Luke Shaw was nine years old, I was coaching the school team and he pitched up as an opposing player. He was built then like he is built now.

1:11:18Stocky? Yeah, stocky for a nine-year-old, that's for sure. And I've obviously sort of stayed in touch. He's a Surrey boy and I've lived in Surrey most of my life. And he's now got four children. I can't believe it. Life goes on and he's in his 30s. I guess he must be now. So, yeah, you could have picked another player.

1:11:46But the stats are a nightmare because I genuinely believe that the ones who pass to each other, like the two centre-halves, are conscious of what their figures will be at the end of the game. I genuinely believe, you give it to me, I give it to you, and it might be just subconscious, but only just. I think it's conscious sometimes. So they're figures who's played the most, complete passes, the two centre-halves. You know, it doesn't help the game at all. How about defending, which is another thing that doesn't resonate with me now. I watched Everton play Chelsea the other day. That was proper.

1:12:18That was, that spanned the generations. Built to defend. Keane and Tarkovsky and Pickford, proper people in their positions, you know. Garner suddenly emerging on the world stage. And Beto had a great game. He works tirelessly for the team, but doesn't always get any glory associated with it. and Dewsbury Hall against his old club. That was a proper, that was the way to win a football match in any generation I've been alive in, you know? So it is there. It's just that those games don't seem to appear as often as... It's how you knew it was Liverpool and then you, like them games like that. There's never any games like that now, really.

1:12:59Going head to head for it. It's just Elfo Leather. Yeah, but didn't we come round to this that football was so tactically cautious, you know, the games were, in the hooliganism era, if you like, the games weren't entertaining and it wasn't the reason there was trouble. But at that time, people were saying, well, why would you watch it? You look at the gates, actually, look back what the gates were like in those days. Newcastle were getting 25 ,000 or something like that. Chelsea were getting 16 ,000. there have been periods in the past is what I'm trying to say where the game hasn't been so attractive I think it has real glamour about it now but it is a coach's game not a player's game and I don't like that I think the player should be given far more responsibility if there's a problem on the pitch don't come running to the coach to ask what you do solve it like Graham Sounas who I was privileged to work with for a long time he wouldn't have stood for all this you know he wouldn't have even wanted players coming to talk to him when he was a manager really because he said I've told you what you know you know we're 10 minutes in and we decide we need to have a tactical timeout and we sit the goalkeeper down which is a another beef of mine at the moment but last night in our under 18s cup tie we were struggling and this goalkeeper said afterwards he'd never been injured so he never knew he never knew that the goalkeepers go down so without trying to um uh the the academy manager was trying to get a message on to him to say we need a breather and it's legitimate now because nobody can say you're not injured but if you go on lie down and pretend you're injured they do know you know so we and we had to do it and it worked and we got we got a little bit of a respite and we hung on so you know i can't be too hypocritical about it but i think it messes up the television experience of it because everybody knows now what's going on.

1:15:05And they tried to come up with an answer, didn't they? The IFAP, the lawmakers, and they couldn't agree on the best way to do it. So maybe we're going to have to live with it. A quick break, gents, from one of our favourites. The creme de la creme of VPN services. Nord VPN. The best in the business. If you don't know what a VPN service is, it allows you to vouch a location anywhere in the world. anywhere in the world. And where have we been lately? Swindon. We didn't need it in Swindon, but we did need it in Dubai. I did need it in Swindon because I went on the hotel Wi-Fi. Ah. Scandinavia. Yes, because that's another thing about no VPN.

1:15:50Security, absolutely unbelievable. And when you go in on those... You know, the hotel Wi-Fis, just go with that. Everybody can get involved. Yeah. Public Wi-Fis. That's your boy. Security. no none of them hackers get into your bank details your passwords no no no I'll tell you what I'm watching at the minute obviously I'm going to on my honeymoon soon I've started watching Dominican Republic who wants to be a millionaire yeah because obviously there's going to be times where she's getting ready and that I'm re-watching the telly you've seen all the millionaires over here yeah so now you've got Domi I'm on Dominican Republic ones at the minute well that's the thing you can bench your location anywhere in the world.

1:16:32So even if you're in the UK and you want to watch Dominican Republic Millionaire, you can get it on over here. Just bounce your location over to Dominican. I can watch anything I want, Chris, from around the world because I've got NordVPN. Sports series. Millionaire. Cut the tosh, lads. What is the script? Do we have an offer? Of course we've got an offer because as under the cosh listeners, you've just got to follow the link in the description and you get a heavy, heavy discount and get this, a 30-day money-back guarantee. So if you don't like it, get your money back. That's why they're the goats for me.

1:17:09We spoke about the games that you have commentated on. Is there any games you look back and you think, I wish I was in the gantry for that one? I know Harrison Reid a little bit and he scored a wonderful goal recently against Liverpool, I think it was, wasn't it? To get a point right in the end. And I went and asked for him afterwards. He lives quite near to where I live. And I said, I wish I'd commentated on that. You know, that was just something recent that I was able to say to him. And he didn't care who commentated on it. He actually did it. But that was just something at the time. Because it was completely out of the blue.

1:17:45A player doesn't score goals. A player who's probably deserving of more minutes on the pitch than he's actually been getting. When I looked it up, he really hardly played. You know, he was a late sub mostly. and to do that when your team needed it and to show that you're all part of the group, you're not sulking because you're not playing. That was a wonderful moment recently. World Cup final, 66 maybe. I was a child of that generation, really loving what we did and how we did it. That's probably the most iconic, isn't it? Yeah. I was asked to do a commentary on it, obviously retrospectively by Sky in the COVID times.

1:18:30They got to decide to do it as a retro game, a Monday night football look at the World Cup final. And the BBC wouldn't release the pictures with Kenneth Orson-Hermes commentary on it. So whether they weren't allowed to or whether it was a contract or whether the family would get royalties from it, I don't know. Anyway, they said, we need somebody to do this. We can't do it without commentary. But I remembered that ITV covered it as well. And a guy called Hugh Johns, who was big, actually was the number one commentator ahead of Brian Moore for a while. And his commentary is never mentioned. But he was a very good broadcaster.

1:19:06And I started to ask ITV. And thankfully, they said yes, because I don't know what I'd have done with it. But I was the next cab off the rank, so to speak. I had it, not had a commentator on it. So Hugh came to my rescue. God rest his soul. So was that out there then? Did you do it? No, no, they took huge commentary. Oh, right. No, no, I'm steeped in. What can you say? I mean, how can you, there's some people on the pitch, they think it's all over. Actually, that's been said before. So you can't. It's difficult to get excited, but we know what happened. But I would have got excited. I mean, that would have been so hard.

1:19:43But in the comparisons, you know, you're trying to do it in the 1966 style, which I don't know. some commentators come into the job from an acting background and i think hugh himself was one of those peter brackley was a fine actor as well um but i didn't so i don't know what i've done with it fortunately i didn't i wasn't put on the spot but that's the one probably we went to the afcon final this year wow and that must have been a tough one tough gig for the fellow in the gallery wow or is that an easy gig because there's just so much going on well i don't know i watched it all i was captivated by it and i still think there's more more to come isn't that they're appealing to the court of arbitration of sport and um i don't know i just thought it was the wrong thing to take people off i don't think you open yourselves up to what's happened just watching it I thought the whistle went before Sarr put the ball in the net I think so the goal couldn't have been reviewed the Senegal goal was the prelude to this that's what it looked like I've not even thought about it since we're talking about it and then it certainly wasn't a penalty but VAR for whatever reason gave it he's going to win the game and win the cup now 20 minutes later he had that chance but he didn't and what struck me watching on television was Sadio Mane staying out not going down the tunnel I think Ibrahim Saar didn't go down the tunnel as well, great credit to both recognising the sporting nature of the situation you know, the paying respect to sport the French coach Claude was there, coached Senegal I guess he was at a long-haired man of some age with very long hair, which I would love to have.

1:21:46And he was clearly, I think, trying to advise them to do the right thing. Yeah, I mean, those things happen, stoppages in play. I had one at Newcastle when the game was stopped. I think for the first time it happens quite often, hopefully not too often, when there was a spectator in the crowd had a heart attack or was stricken anyway and the players I think it was Kieran Trippi told the ref we've got to stop this game we've got to use our medical people to help this man and that's quite difficult because you're not quite sure what the protocol is are they going to take the players off you know how long and how serious it is I think those kind of things where life is being threatened they're the hardest things where you can And one of the worst experiences in my career was being the reporter for Wales v Scotland in the World Cup playoff in 1985 when Jock Steen was carried from the dugout to the dressing room and passed during the evening.

1:22:54We all stayed and I saw his bus carried by the medics in front of me, as close as you are to me, Chris. And he was alive. and I had to interview Willie Miller who was the captain of Scotland who didn't know that this had happened and they were celebrating they got to the World Cup scenes that we're going to see in the next few days clubs qualifying this was that kind of scenario that's challenging beyond belief really to be able to I had to say by the way Willie do you know your managers is because if I hadn't asked the question yeah it wouldn't have been you know we said well why didn't you ask I was between a rock and a hard place really it was a very hard place and had a very sad ending so yeah you can't prepare for that try to prepare there's a lot of what if in commentary um but that's false measure or whatever you want to call it then you just have to trust that you respect and recognize as much as you can of being somebody who's got to say the right thing at very much the wrong time as a commentator and for the sport.

1:24:14I do puns and my kids just think I'm a ridiculous father. And I did one in the game on Saturday which I deeply regret for anyway on Sunday. in the trenches they were saying Stephen was saying that we want these Forest players with you in the trenches and I go yeah trenches brilliant and honestly when I said it I like it I do as well probably would have picked up on it I bet you must have to hold yourself back though in certain situations like like you were just saying then about maybe there's a player who goes down quite regular and then he goes down again. It must be so easy to go, oh, here we go again.

1:25:01Here we go again. And then it turns out he's broken ankle. Yes. Yeah. That's, you have to start from the position of he's injured. Yeah. And then if he gets up straight away. Now, with the regulations, you go off for 30 seconds. Next year, it's going to be a minute. So players are not, and that applies to head injuries, even if the physio doesn't go on. So if the physio goes on and you're off for a minute, If you get hit in the head and a referee thinks it's a head injury and you've sort of amplified it by suggesting that you're hurt, but you're really not. You have to go off for a minute anyway.

1:25:39So even though I've seen it's happened already, it's in place but not for a minute, 30 seconds. I've seen a player this season go, no, no, he hasn't come on. And the ref going, no, you're off. You can stand over there for 30 seconds. So there'll be a lot of that coming in. and they've brought a lot of timing into the goalkeeper with the eight seconds, which seems to be working. Five seconds if you delay now over a throw. Only if you delay. You don't just have five seconds to take any throw with refs who think you're delaying it. And if you're substituted, you've got to get off in 30 seconds unless you're injured.

1:26:19I put that thought into your minds to say... If you limp off. There'll be a lot of players limping off. Yeah. And I've quoted, he's a great bloke and he was a wonderful player. Clive Allen, I see a lot of him. He's one of my co-commentors regularly. In the broadcast earlier this year, I was talking about the goalkeepers coming up, maybe an outfield player going off. And he went, Martin, he said, whatever they try, we'll find a way around it. They were like, yeah. And I think, you know, it might sound cynical, but it's not. It's just the way it is, you know. and so that's going to be tested, these new things as to what's going to happen.

1:26:59I think that one, Howard Webb, I believe, didn't like this being brought in, but if I bring it in, it's law. So you can't say at the Premier League, we're not going to do it. This is brought in as law, so the players will have their 30 seconds to get off unless they limp. I'll use Arsenal, Liverpool as an example. Have you got to be careful to give too much of your opinion? Is that where you lean on the core commentary? And I'll use Martinelli. You know, when he dragged, it was the right back that was a bolt and done his knee, young kid. Connor Bradley. Connor Bradley. I mean, I was sat watching it in my front room and I was fuming.

1:27:41Basically, he's done his crew shit and Martinelli's dragging him off the pitch. Is it one of them where you just go, I think it might have been Gary Neville, there you go, Gary, all the best. You deal with that. Because you're fuming yourself. Yeah, I mean, obviously there are games we do on our own. So you have to have it in your locker to be able to say something about it. Martinelli came out with a fulsome apology, didn't he, when he realized what the situation truly was. And he was the heat of the moment. But I think you can excuse that playing in the middle of a football match. As a commentator, you can't really be excused the heat of the moment.

1:28:19moment you know so I I've had one or two moments where I've felt I remember Paolo Di Canio did something that he got a player sent off actually and I felt that was wrong and I just let my guard down in terms of opinion and I was so this is the early years of the Premier League it was a West Ham game and I when I finished the commentary I thought that's not good enough I've done I've gone too personal so much so that i rang gordon taylor at the pfa to say look this is what i did yesterday one of your members i basically said look you know he's got a player sent off therefore you know i'm condemning him for it and gordon laughed and he said look if that's the only problem you have in life you'll be you'll be fine but i took it seriously and and it's a it's a labor of love and you understand that it impacts on other people who like what you say and don't like what you say that that's that's not the problem that that that is not the problem it's the respect and love for the game that you feel if if you get that wrong you feel more challenged for people to say you did this you shouldn't have said that and why did you do that and that was it that's fine i can cope with that and i'm very grateful that you haven't said any of that here today um but that's that's never a problem because you can always explain why it happened and put your hand up if you've got it wrong um but if you feel that you've allowed yourself to come out of your box really i don't think that's that's the hardest things i've had to deal with really where you you you've got drawn into something that's not your purvey really it's not part of your job to be there to say that and you've got somebody very capable alongside I need to do that.

1:30:12And it's tempting, of course it is, because we all watch the game with our opinions and whatever. But being a coach has helped because you can't let that. Imagine, you know, Sky, if I'd been sent from the dugout and then I'm pitching up to work for Sky the next day, it was terrible, it would be terrible. It would probably be a sackable offence, to be honest. I think that's why I could never be a co-commentator or a commentator, because I just said what I thought. To be fair, Gary Neville probably was everybody watching the thing. He just... People appreciate that at the same time. That's also because of how football is now.

1:30:54And also, he's got the background to justify, I think. And Gary would tell you he's sailed close to the wind a couple of times, but Sky have backed him because they know what the value that his strength of opinion and justification of opinion is is there for all to hear and so and I don't think people think that about the what I call a play-by-play guy the job that I do you know um there are times where you feel you can go that extra bit further but I don't think it's a part of the work you go to very voluntarily you know you've got to have a think about should I really say this should I be um I had one this season with um Josh King of Fulham scored a goal at Chelsea he's finally now scored his first Premier League goal but he hadn't scored he should have had a goal at Chelsea back in the start of the season and it was a goal was given beautiful move great play from him Fulham won the ball in their own half and then the VAR intervened and ruled the goal out.

1:32:06And I was working, I think, with Matt Upson and we were furious, you know, but working for the Premier League, you know, you have to respect the officials and respect the process and you can't go jumping on about VARs, this, that and the other. And obviously these are more considered opinions. It's not pub talk, it's public talk, really. But I was concerned then. We might have gone, both of us might have gone too far. So I checked in at halftime and I said, look, was that okay? And they said, well, Dermot Gallagher's in Stockley Park where our broadcast goes through Stockley Park and he's fuming.

1:32:47So not about us, they're fuming about the decision. Right, decision. All right. Yeah, so that was fine. The car park waiting for you. I can't remember what I said, but it was, this is, we can't be having these things and something like that. And that was on absolutely the same page. So, yeah, that doesn't stop you. It's emotional, isn't it? We're in it because we're emotional about football. We're not cool, calm and collected, really. See, I think there's a niche in the market for somebody who will say what they think. As a commentator, yeah. You know, like the fans things when they're fancasts and all that.

1:33:26You know, two commentators will really say what they think. That is a fucking disgrace. You could be good at that. There have been experiments with that, hasn't there? The fan zone. Yeah, there's experiments with all sorts now. And the fans in a box and everything. Yeah, and we had Ryan Reynolds and Rob Mack, as we must call him now, doing the Wrexham game only the other day. so I didn't hear it but I was actually at another game so I would like to have heard it but you know yeah there's a market for it so why not the only trouble is there's not space in the grounds for all these commentators to turn up we're all squeezed in as it is I think you've been harsh on yourself John I think you'd be I've done co-coms could we have a little bit of an interview now if only had a Premier League goal to commentate on where we're going to find one of them George yeah come on then I'll do the I know what I'm going to say already you can't you can't do that you've got to be professional John and you've got no chance I'll tell you what Matt can do the professional bit and I'll do what I actually really think

1:34:41so which one is this a commentary co-com situation yeah I'll do the play by play. That's it. And Sunderland really pushing here to nail down a win at the Stadium Blight. And Nosworthy with that very much in mind. Let's fly. Oh, Crossley's built it. It's Brown! Brown scores for Sunderland. They go 2-0 up. Right. Play it again. Get it back and do everything.

1:35:14That was up there with the Aguero. I thought you'll go far if I knew you'd have to call you brownie it would have been a brownie

1:35:28so the ball come into the box a terrible terrible ball into the blocks Naren Nosriff comes inside on his left foot do not shoot do not oh he's shot with his left foot Mark Crossy what are you doing that is an absolute catastrophe and I cannot actually quite believe what I've just seen Chris Brown number 20 has scored a goal unbelievable the fans are going absolutely mad that is one of the scrappiest Premier League goals I've ever seen but it counts yes man he'll be talking about this for 25 years

1:36:03brilliant if I've done nothing today I've brought that to your attention you're happy man very happy thanks man really appreciate your time tell us a bit more about your podcast what's your is it released weekly yeah we're just done episode 103 um it's we try to do it on a monday um we sort of it's called the joy of football um and we do at least one of us i do it with neil barnett who's a little bit more the voice of passion i'm the voice of reason um the joy is the most important part we we're two old chaps who would be talking football down the pub. So we thought we'd do it in front of let a few people eavesdrop.

1:36:46And it's great. It's just organic. We haven't gone about it in a commercial way. We've got a little bit of sponsorship. If anybody wants to help with that, we'll be very grateful. But it's a nice thing to do because it shows you a love of football and we both love it. He's a Chelsea fan. He's having a really tough time at the moment. I'm a Woking fan. And the Woking Academy coach has just won a cup. which is honestly I'm still buzzing boys you got me on a good day I haven't slept very much but winning I did very little let's make it clear but the boys we've worked with for them they played the first half and it's a local Surrey Midweek Youth League Cup and we've won it and the first half was the best they've ever played as a group and they wore themselves out which has got us to the point where we had to get the goalkeeper to think about To bend the rules.

1:37:41But it was really, really great. I mentioned this earlier against Kingstonian with Rhys James' dad in charge, Nigel James, and Tony Gale's son, Tony Gale, Premier League winner, of course, as well as Rhys. And his son, Anthony, was the head coach. And a really proper good rivalry, good spirit, good game. You know, to win a cup with a good game makes it extra special. And it hasn't happened to me very often, but that was great. And that was less than 15 hours ago. You can say the passion still. You just love it. I'm the only one in the team photo with a presentation where they've got the group behind the sponsorship.

1:38:28I'm the only one doing that. So if you're listening to it, rather watching it, Punching the air. So, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate your time. I really enjoyed that. And to be told before the game, some people knew that I was coming on. I've got a lot to live up to locally. I'm not sure I've done that. But thank you for inviting me. Yes, thank you. That was brilliant. Great to meet you. Cheers.