Referee Graham Scott | Jose’s Rage

32:10Yeah, it's much too much of a science now. What was your preference? An art. I mean, refereeing is an art and a science. You've got the laws. You've got to apply them as best you can. Most of the laws are written fairly loose. So they're vague. They're deliberately left open to interpretation. So you've got some wriggle room. But some of them aren't. so someone takes a shirt off after scoring you've got nowhere to go which seems a strange one to be really really strict on but it is one that is really really strict so but there are others where you can say it's in the opinion of the referee if this tackle is considered careless or reckless or using excessive force well all those things are kind of your reckless would be different to yours so um it's the art of the referee is to is to know the moment when you need to intervene when you need to raise your profile you need to blow your whistle when you need to pull someone out when you maybe need to go for a card um that's not scientific that's that's that's a skill that you acquire over time with experience over time and with knowledge of the game a feel for the game uh not all refs have that of course the ones who reach the top generally do um they generally have that sense of where the science ends and the art starts and where the balance needs to be um i often talk about these competing and mutually exclusive demands for consistency and common sense so you say people say they want consistency okay well i can show you consistency that's not a problem i can show you what consistency looks like but i can tell you now you won't like it when you see it because what you'll get is this kind of very robotic approach that people then also rail against they say well these refs today they know the rules but they don't know the game and they're all robots so we'll know actually that's not true what we try and do is find this sensible balance between the two it's like you're standing on a seesaw and you've got consistency down here common sense there and you're trying to find the right balance all the time and the best are just standing like this just stand this and the others the what the bad ones are doing that you don't know where you stand as a player you want to know what you can get away with and what you can't but your common sense might not be the same as another referee's comment there's of course of course you know it's a very long career pathway it's like a game of snakes and snakes because everyone's out to get you but you hopefully get to the top because you offend the fewest people um you the clubs mark us every game so if you are refereeing on a non-league in a kind of in a non-league football and your marks are rubbish every week the clubs are really unhappy with you, I think you're rubbish, you won't go anywhere.

34:51This is how it works. So you do have to keep, you're finding this balance between pleasing ex-refs who come along and assess you for your actual technical performance and the clubs who will be judging you more on their feel for how you were. Do you think it's got easier or more difficult at that time? It sounds like a nightmare when you were saying you've got earpieces in, you've got VAR, you've got assistant referees, when going back to your earlier days where it's just you in charge in the centre of that field. So some things become easier and some things become more difficult. It's obviously great having help from your colleagues who can help bail you out.

35:25You're about to make this really bad decision and they stop you or they even corrected the bad decision that you've just made because you've got time before the game restarts to, okay, let's not do that because that's not a very good idea. But I don't think people do appreciate quite what is going on on a Premier League pitch when you have got all these different things, all these different information coming in. um the players bombarding you um telling you they want you to get the decisions right but trying to scramble your brain the whole time which means you're more likely to get one wrong which is actually what they're often trying to do because they won't get hoping they'll get it wrong in their favor yeah yeah i might but i also might get one wrong against you so you'd probably be better off leaving me alone um but all of that's going on all at once and of course it's a very very fast and dynamic moving picture so you're not standing still you're not like a a line judge in tennis or an unparalleled cricket where you can stand still and just make your calls still difficult jobs but this is much more complicated because you're having to run around you're running 10 12k you're sprinting you're stopping you're changing direction and you're trying to get into the best possible position player goes and runs across you just as you need to see something all these things going on at once and then you know there's 30 cameras around the pitch no hiding um generally showing that you're right but also of course highlighting very starkly when you're wrong.

36:48Do you think you're better off refereeing with a miner's lamp camera? Do you know, like, so you can say, well, that's why I didn't see that because Lado just came straight across me. Do they have that now? Do they have that now? I take a look at that. I don't watch much football. You don't mean that literally. Just to mind that. I would call GoPros. Well, they use a ref cam now where they put this, I didn't get to use them, they just put it in, but it's a very lightweight camera they were on the side of their head. And that does kind of give you a take on what the referee is looking at. But people surely know that, I mean, everyone does eyes do swivel.

37:24You don't have to move your head. And people are always looking straight at it. Well, yeah, but just because your head's in one direction doesn't mean you're taking everything in in that bit of space. But that GoPro, is that for people, for decisions? Or is that for just... It's just for the meet. It's just a show. Just for the meet. So like... It's after the game. It's released after the game in the parts of it. they're not the whole thing. So that's not sent up to VAR, that's what I mean. No. The broadcasters only drop it in after the event. Right. It's not available to VAR, as far as I know anyway.

37:54I'd be surprised if it is. What would you just go on topical for a second? That Havertz won the other day. Yeah. Like back in the day, we were all told, if someone's getting away from you on the counter-attack, bring them down. Yeah. However means. Good yellow. Yeah. Take it off of the team. Yeah. But the other night, I mean, Gary Neville was adamant that it was a red. Oh, yeah. And you mentioned Sterling not being that type of player. Yeah. I mean, I've seen Havertz do that a couple of times. I think Havertz probably is that time. Yeah, I know. Even though he's a, you know, he's a... He would do what he did on, he's done it before this season.

38:27We've got evidence of that. My take on that one was that it should be a red card. But if you look back at this season in the Premier League, the number of tackles that are not entirely dissimilar, some are given as red, some are given as yellow. the VR has usually confirmed whatever the on-field decision has been and then the panel that meets during the week from the Premier League to say whether it was right or wrong has backed them. So there's been this very high level of contact allowed some really poor tackles been allowed to let go as yellows, not let go completely and endorsed as correct decisions by the Premier League and then we have that one you think well that really should be a red bat you've gone in front you're not going even knowing near the ball and you've gone with six studs, you've gone down the calf.

39:13You're not really in control of that. You certainly could injure him. It should be a red. But I can understand there's not a lot of force in it. The ref might just go, well, I'm balanced, just not quite enough. And the VAR does the same. They go, oh, not quite enough for me to intervene. And we end up with what should have been a red card being sticking on Phil as a yellow. That's just half bollocks, isn't it? Like, you know, decisions earlier in the season, everything should be based on that one decision. Then what is consistency to you then? Well, all the other ones are wrong. All the other ones are bollocks in my opinion.

39:50You're absolutely entitled to that opinion, but if you've been told as a ref by your employers and by the Premier League that, yeah, these are fine, you go into the game thinking, okay, that's what you want. That's what we're prepared to tolerate. I'll tolerate it too. You can't be the only one who now goes, well you might think that mate but i'm gonna give it as a but you know i mean you're all just basically they're all just like scratching each other's backs then we'll look after it weak i don't think that's a fair description of how it works at all choice to be an arsehole john

40:23looking after your employees i would say then it's probably a red but we'll just we'll agree we'll all agree can you remember any examples of when you were doing when you were at um in the vr thing where you just don't know what oh many to do yeah many many you've got right on the cusp of if i was reffing this game if i'd seen that i would go red but this referee has seen it quite well and they've made the decision it's yellow and it's like well have i got can i the thought process needs to be if i showed the referee these pictures is he just going to go to the screen oh my blimey yeah don't worry i can see what you're showing me there that's just a red card that's what you need you need that kind of really evidence that no one seeing these pictures would reach any other decision than red um but if they've just seen it and they go that that's fine that's enough i've seen it and it's fine and you know they've had a good view of it you that bar is really high sometimes too it is too high sometimes clearly that's the celtic penalty yeah another topical one well i thought that was a really baffling decision i couldn't work that one out at all we were disagreeing talking about it and it's there in hd what's happened yeah i i i mean that was the first time i've thought i'd be handy if the referee came back from the screen and made an announcement because usually they're a waste of time aren't they or the number six was well we know he just you know but um i get it for the fans and the fans in the stadium are the biggest victims of var but um in this particular case i know whether he's given it because he's seen some sort of elbow arm in the face or for handball i'm assuming it's handball but on what basis is it a handball because he's headed it if it brushes his finger while he's heading it that doesn't constitute a handball defense for me anyway so his arm's here because he's challenging for the ball and he's kind of got in this slightly contorted position he's not gone to bat it or to punch it his arm happens to be here and if it brushes his fingers on the way through to his head we don't give those because if it's your are hands in line with your body, then that's mitigation for a penalty.

42:33So certainly in the Premier League, it would be in the laws of the game, you can find a way of saying, oh, he's arms in a natural position. I don't think it is, but you could, if you want to build that case, go for it. But I just don't see for a moment how that's in any way a justifiable decision. I hope I'm not doing the referee a disservice. and actually I've not seen something that he did see, but he based his decision on the pictures that I have seen. So I'm really surprised it was given. Plain of advocate, it might have been the fact that it was Celtic who were profiteering from this decision.

43:08All I'm saying. My partner's a City fan and she sent us through, it was a Premier League trophy and they were engraving Varsinal onto the... Have they had any bias, do you think, with the decisions? Of course I don't think so, but I mean, Arsenal haven't, I nearly called them Varsley. Can we, no, leave it in. No, I mean, I don't, I mean, actually look at the evidence this season. They've benefited from a couple, but they've not been, there's not been much. They should have had a player, the second yellow card against Villa, I think it was. Everton probably should have had a penalty against them, but it's a tough call.

43:51So 50-50 really, but yeah, on balance. But they've had a couple go the other way. And I think Chelsea scored a goal they shouldn't have against them. So it's not been, you can possibly say that they've won the league because, not for a moment. I mean, the West Ham-Arsenal decision is clearly really, really tough call. But it is a foul on the goalkeeper. And I think, although it might not be the clear and obvious threshold that we normally ask for, where it's got to be really obvious, it is a foul on him. So you can't say it's wrong. And people, you're going on about consistency. I mean, some of the goals that I've seen Arsenal score with the aggression and the...

44:34Yeah. I can just hear Louise talking. It's still you here. It's dear. But City have scored their share as well. So City are very good, actually, at, it's usually Bernardo Silva on the goalkeeper, at pinning the goalkeeper in a way that's just legal. And it is legal. They're not bending any rules, but they are right on the line. And that's created space that's meant they've scored goals on more than one occasion. I always have to remind City fans about they did benefit from the disallowed goal that Liverpool had in the game earlier in the season where Robertson ducks under the ball. Actually, that should have stood.

45:10And that would have changed that game almost certainly. And it was a bit of a sliding doors moment, I think, for both teams. City may well not have won that game. And if Liverpool had got something at City, who knows what might have gone on, how their season might have developed. Let us just message out that action. So, you know, they don't even themselves out because some teams do have bigger grounds for grievance. But equally, the teams that benefit don't go, Howard, thanks for that, mate. That was good. Much appreciated, Elwin. They just think, well, they won because they were the better team.

45:44Funny that, isn't it? When you win, it's because it's your good and if you lose, it's because of other people. Have you ever heard I don't know if I've just created this role. I'm thinking about Pep and the small margins. Would he ever get somebody in, maybe like yourself, as a referee consultant? You know what he's saying? He's very fine lines there. He's doing something that's just legal. Clattenburg did. Clattenburg went into Forest, didn't he? Right, yeah. Well, I haven't created it. Clattenburg's been in Forest. I think there would be scope for something like that. And legitimately. You're advising.

46:19him for it to be. We could get you another job here. We could get you another job. But I mean, it's also... Rule vendor. But it's not just, it's just knowing the rules. I mean, let's be honest, there are players who know the rules of golf better than the laws of football, aren't they? I'll be honest with you, I've never 100 % known all the rules. And they are available. It's like you'd think they're kept encrypted in a vault outside Geneva or something. No, you can download them online, you can read them and everything. got pictures i mean you know it's not actually that difficult to know the rules interpreting them is a bit more challenging because what does that mean for example what's a foul throw and they'll swear blind his foot was on the pitch it was a foul throw well i've looked at them all they're not he's not foul throw what do you mean it's nice and they'll take another one they'll go there you go he did it again he says yeah that's fine so what do you mean i said well he's as long as the back of his heel is on the line he's fine see that's a rule i didn't know I thought if there were a centimetre of his foot on the pitch, that were a foul throw.

47:29Well, you're mistaken. So as long as there's a centimetre of his foot off the pitch, it's okay. As long as a tiny bit of his heel clips the back of the line, he's fine. Well, I know. But people go nuts about it. So you come to his fourth, usually his fourth official game, because you're a sitting duck, aren't you? So they come in, they go, You're going to do anything about this? Well, no, because I don't think anything's wrong. But it's a foul thing. No, it's not. What do you mean it's not a foul thing? Well, his foot's allowed to be there. How? You? What? And you think, look, how long have you been in the game?

48:01And you don't know it. It is baffling, really. Do you remember the one this season where Luke 0-9, where there was a second ball on the pitch, middle of the pitch, and he's just gone over and volleyed the spare ball towards the player attacking? and he's being booked for it. Yeah, yeah. Quite right. I mean, what's the... Good yellow. It's a great yellow, but it's a funny yellow, isn't it? As a ref, I'll be like, what the fuck's going on there? What do I do? Because the ball shouldn't be on the pitch. The game should be stopped, shall we? If you stop the game, if the ball's got any, having any impact on play.

48:37So a ball, if the ball's down one penalty and the ball kind of rolls on down the other end, you're not going to stop the game. Sorry, lads. It's 80 yards away, but rolls and rolls. Just kick it off. Yeah, it's got to affect the game. But clearly it did once he launched it. He could have interpreted that ball as the ball that they were playing with. Yeah, just confused. That is possible. The beach ball was probably the biggest example of that time, wasn't it? Yeah, I can't work out why that wasn't spotted on the day. Well, that brings us on to another one you were involved in. Swansea v Sunderland oh please don't go there 16-17 yeah sorry I've forgotten about that I don't remember that one that was my first season on the Premier League and earlier in the season I did Sheffield Wednesday Arsenal in the League Cup at Hillsborough and Sheffield was in the championship at the time and absolute full house and Wenger turned up and it was like Arsenal are completely not ready for this game at all.

49:44Two players got off injured. Theo Walker, I think it was, went off after about 10 minutes injured. Sub came on and he got injured as well. It's just like routine muscle injuries, you know, fingers going mad. He does his thing where he takes his coat off and throws it on the floor and all this. Atmosphere's electric, brilliant, brilliant night. But I've forgotten the name of the player, but he, I think it was Sam Hutchinson, came in for Sheffield Wednesday, He comes in on this tackle and it's like, I'm thinking, oh, I read that. That's a read. But there's no reaction from anyone. And you think, have I misread this?

50:20This must be a, maybe it's not a read. So I asked my assistants, right in the middle of the field, what's that look like from where you are? And they go, yeah, yellow from me, mate. Yeah, it's like a yellow from here. I thought, must be yellow then. I must have not quite seen it as I thought I had. so um okay pull him out you're on a card i see the replays thing half time the pundits were going this is a red card what's the ref doing he's got a good view so after the game i get pulled in by the you know as you are after every game to be fair and you go right well what's going on here why do you not give i said well to be honest as i've said to you on first view i thought it was a red and i've seen it again i think it's red but everyone else there's no reaction from the players the player gets up he's not injured and I just took that reaction to me and I must have misread it next time son trust your judgement trust your judgement you're here for a reason you're not in the Premier League because you're rubbish you know a red card when you see one you back yourself ok I can it's good I'll go with that just before so do you know when they said that to you do you is it a collective that then as in you and your two linesmen have you all gone you should you know what I mean well we what do you mean sorry so he said trust your judgment but you've had who's saying that oh right so this would be my coach my referee coach uh manager but can you say well i've spots and made two assistants i explained the process exactly as i explained to you he said you need to trust your judgment better because you know a red card when you see one right you would have been right what does that teach you so well i probably do know a red card when i see one better than other people do therefore i'm here for a reason you say i'm good enough to be at this level not me so therefore i will go with that next time i see what looks like a red card go to swansea i hadn't refereed in the premier league for a few weeks because that tends to be the way it goes in your first season so i turn up and i see a tackle that from my view just looks really poor i think okay here's my moment i'm gonna go back and oh no no no no it's not it's not a red card that one it's not a red card it's a yellow that one so you go okay so what's the learning well next time take your time ask your assistants gauge the player reaction and you think this isn't going to end well is it next time i will trust my judgment better actually but yeah it is all driven by the outcome and if the outcome was wrong, then the process must have been wrong.

52:53And actually what refereeing should be about is you get all your processes right, you'll almost always get it right. In just occasion, you'll get one wrong. Nowadays, VR would probably bail me out. But it's the same on the pitch, isn't it? You've got your way of playing and you're through on goal, you'll have a way of trying to score that goal and most times it'll work and sometimes it won't. Were you good at putting it behind you? I mean, you've got to put it behind the game. So there's half an hour gone, you've made a decision, the players looked up in amazement, you've sent them off you're like oh shit but you've still got an hour to go i think that's what's been lost so if there's been any change to the vr i think it's overstated that much it's how much it's affected referees decision making processes but this is one of them so we got used to that we knew we made mistakes and we knew that they would happen and we knew how to process them and get on with the next one and you just move on to the next decision and you're very very hardwired to be able to do that when i watch the refs now especially in the fa cup if they haven't got var if they make what they know they do i know i've just made a really bad mistake here how am i going to process this they haven't got var saying don't worry you weren't that wrong you you may not have been may not be the best decision but it wasn't that bad or even putting it right now they've got to move on to the next call some of them really do struggle with that and that's something that needs to be addressed in training because it is really difficult if you know you've cost a team a goal or it's more of a reassurance that you can get on with your game yeah when that you've well if you've got vr i mean one of the troubles with vr my first game with vr i kept being told all we got told was this these two words was check complete which is basically meant yeah i've checked everything and you haven't made a clear and obvious error so it came through as check complete but my interpretation as the ref for the first time having this process was i'm right yeah not that i'm not wrong yeah and although those sound like that's just double negatives surely it means the same thing or no you cannot be wrong but it still could have made a better choice there um so i come off the pitch thinking i've done quite well here everything right and that was the day i got in the changing room my phone's going i hope you're okay because Because BBC One, who was an FA Cup, BBC One are going, wow, it's got everything, got these wrong, and he got that one wrong, as they disagreed.

55:13So, yeah, you have this kind of false reassurance, actually, that you're getting it right, when actually you're just, it's not that bad, it's not so wrong that we feel we've got to intervene. But is that a good or a bad thing? I don't know. If you know on the field that you've made a wrong decision, is it better to think you've made a right decision? I'm not sure. I mean, I guess one of the things we can't do is do the kind of what you'd like to do in a scientific study is do a controlled trial where you do half the games with one half and see what the outcomes were. You can't do that. So we'll never know.

55:45And we also, we never know. It's a bit like I was thinking about the Arsenal-West Ham decision from a couple of weeks ago. We'll never know what would happen if the VR said, okay, I'm not coming in here. That's not clear and obvious for me. Because we get a big row after that decision. But if he makes the other decision, we just have the same row, but from a different perspective. And we never get this kind of sense of what would have happened if we'd done the opposite, because we can never do that. We can never do both and see what the ending would have been. I spoke about it off-air. The one that's really pissing me off at the minute is defenders just falling over when they get the slightest touch in the back.

56:23Surely that's going to have to be sort of looked up. I hope so, because it's so tiresome. it's really frustrating for everyone i think and i mean i see forwards get really frustrated and then they see their ass and then they then they get done for something then they do kick someone yeah because they're just so fed up with it or they gob off and then they get yelled for that during covid we we gave a far too much and that was partly because the grounds were empty and you could hear stuff and it the tolerance level came right down and primarily came to the refs after that and said when the crowds came back said we really want you to allow much more contact and the game improved enormously on the back of that i don't know if you've noticed they never sky never show any of the covid games in the you know in the summer they've got nothing else to put on have they and they'll show a classic matches from all the years gone by they never show any of those covid games today because they're all rubbish frankly you know there was no atmosphere um the football wasn't generally very good i can't barely remember any of the games at all that were any actually worth being at you know it was really sad but obviously it was great that we were able to play so it was the right thing to do so we're allowed much more let's allow a lot much more contact let's allow this and let's not giving that not not give those free kicks that you're describing and for a time that did happen it seems to have crept back in especially with some refs and all that's really going on most of the time is a thought process especially among some of the less experienced and some of the less confident that if i give a free kick here no one will talk about it after the game this defensive free kick to the defending team for this tiny bit of contact will be lost it won't be shown on match the day it won't be on the highlights no one will come to me after the game and say they cost us whereas if i play on and then they score or there's a corner from which they score or whatever something in the next phase of play and they go actually this one he oh look he just did just tread on his heel and actually that should have been a free kick now the world goes mad the manager's doing a press conference criticizing the referee it's all over the papers social media names mud you can't go out for two days you've got to wear a hat and a mustache you know so you kind of think let's just give it it'll go away lesser of the two evils yeah and and actually that's the wrong answer but i and i understand i've been there and i understand it and I'm sure if you want to wade through any of my games feel free to go and find the clips where I've done exactly that but now you step out of it and you think oh no we've got to stop giving those because it is just it just kills momentum in the game it's just not right, it's not a foul so why are we penalising it and then you also get too big a gap I have always been I will always defend that there are different thresholds in the penalty area to give a penalty it's got to be a proper foul not a whereas in the center circle i'll give it i'll give you that one because fair enough it's it's off but i'll give you that i'll give a free kick here i think that's reasonable and understandable but that gap gets too wide it's that isn't at that point that point is that gap is that doesn't make any sense because you're giving a free kick there and exactly the same happens down the other end in the penalty area you're never going to give it not even get close to giving it that gap's too wide what I've found when we didn't give them was the defenders very quickly learned to stay on their feet they felt the contact and they stayed they stumbled maybe but they stayed up because they'd not want to get the foul and the game was better for it some of the handballs that get given don't get given it's just blows your mind doesn't it like the I'm going to use that one in PSG buy in the other week when the defenders cleared it and it hit his own player's hand it was a blatant handball to me but then it was like not given.

1:00:14The handball law, I mean, as I said, it is available. I know you've not read it. I know you've not read anything. But the handball law now is so, it's got multiple clauses, sub-clauses, caveats, considerations, and then on layer on top of that, the Premier League has its own set of expectations. So a supporting arm isn't handball, right? So if you're falling to the ground, you're putting your hand down purely to support your body weight and the ball happens to hit your arm, that can't be a handball, right? And you think, well, I suppose that's fair enough. Yeah, but just occasionally, that hand, the knife seemed to be conveniently placed.

1:00:49Just where the balls come. But if that's stopping the ball going across to a striker stood on his own. But it's got to be a handball offence. Or going in the bottom corner. I think you'd probably get done for that. Not to think so. But there's so many elements to it. And then it's so open to interpretation. And then you have the different expectations in the Premier League. It's like, it's not handball unless you've really got to give it. It's got to be a really strong case for this to be awarded as a penalty. Whereas in Europe, if he's hit his arm, well, it's a penalty then. Unless, of course, they've got no choice, but not to.

1:01:32So he's far too close or his arm's really tucked in. players rarely are actually deliberately handling the ball at all and if their arm happens to be away a little bit it's usually a reaction to something they flinched or they just turned and their arm happens to come out they're not doing it they're not putting it they're thinking oh there's a ball coming i'm going to put my hand here isn't how it works and if they do they do that it's obvious usually yeah so why would that one end up being given then though you know which one i'm on about yeah it's because there's a mitigation there's so many different clauses as I say.

1:02:05They are written down and available. I ain't got fucking 15 days spare to read these rules. This is a UA for mitigation. But if the ball is leaving the penalty and it's been played by a teammate, you wouldn't ever, why would you ever block the ball with your arm if the ball is kicked by one of your teammates to clear it? Would be the essentially the thought process. So you've got no motivation to do that. It's clearly accidental because he wouldn't do it for any, He would have no reason to do it. He's not made his arm. There's an expression around making your body unnaturally bigger or putting your arm in an unjustifiable position where you wouldn't make your body unnaturally bigger if your teammate was kicking the ball to clear it.

1:02:48You wouldn't do that. Your arm's clear there simply because of your movement in that moment. But it does mean you get the still image of that against the still image of something else. You think, well, that one's, hang on a minute, just get this straight. That one's given and that one wasn't. What? how does that work there's difference between a still image and a moving image of course yeah big time yeah well there's times somebody's gone up for a header and you jump and he's missed the header and it's gone over and it's hit his hand and you're like he hasn't meant that you're going about as he meant it or is it a purposeful thingy he's just jumped missed the header and it's hit but then the counter argument is the ball's traveled 50 or 30 yards you know where the ball is why have you put your arm there well you're doing it for balance yeah but you you're taking that risk and your arm is away from your body and it's extended and you're asking the referee to judge all of those things very quickly like this yeah um and then when you're vr of course you'll see five six angles all the different speeds you'll freeze it your toe does hit his arm okay now what does he actually do and you've got five angles two will say it's definitely handball two will say it's probably not and one might leave you confused now what you're going to do is it clear and obvious or not your guy sitting next to you or Avar might say oh that's just handball what are you on about or might say no he's never meant that defenders have had to change the way they defend and jump to fall in line with the rules like when you're they get that one behind the back I don't know I'd much rather have far far fewer handballs and just accept that the ball hits the arm sometimes and that's part of football than what we have in Europe which is you can't you have to you have to pin your arms to your sides or put your arms behind you're back.

1:04:29A quick break, gents, from one of our favourites. The creme de la creme of VPN services. NordVPN. The best in the business. If you don't know what a VPN service is, it allows you to bounce your location anywhere in the world. Anywhere in the world. And where have we been lately? Swindon. We didn't need it in Swindon, but we did need it in Dubai. I did need it in Swindon because I went on the hotel Wi-Fi. Oh, Scandinavia. Yes, because that's another thing about no VPN. Security, absolutely unbelievable. And when you go in on those... You know, hotel Wi-Fis. Just go with that. Everybody can get involved.

1:05:10Public Wi-Fis. That's your boy. Security. None of them hackers get into your bank details, your passwords. No, no, no. I'll tell you what I'm watching at the minute. I'm going to say I'm going to... I'm going to honeymoon soon. I've started watching Dominican Republic who wants to be a millionaire. Yeah. Obviously, there's going to be times where she's getting ready and that. I'm going to be watching the telly. You've seen all the millionaires over here. Yeah. So now you've got Aunt Domi. I want Dominican Republic ones at a minute. Well, that's the thing. You can bounce your location anywhere in the world.

1:05:43So even if you're in the UK and you want to watch Dominican Republic millionaire, you can get it on over here. Just bounce your location over to Dominican. I can watch anything I want, Chris, from around the world because I've got NordVPN. Sports series. Millionaire. Cut the tosh, lads. What is the script? Do we have an offer? Of course we've got an offer because, as under the cosh listeners, you've just got to follow the link in the description and you get a heavy, heavy discount and, get this, a 30-day money-back guarantee. So if you don't like it, get your money back. That's why they're the goats for me.

1:06:21you know you mentioned uh the hood up and the mustache on earlier have you ever had any incidents of fans approaching you um no i've been fortunate i think i mean i live in oxfordshire which hasn't it's not a footballing hotbed really and um i'm some distance from all the when i was at least 50 miles from every premier league club um social media is a different place so you don't go there unless you unless you prepared for it yeah um but um and i had some i had a very strange um direct message from a chelsea fan once saying i should have gone to spec savers but he spelt spec with a k so it was like s-p-e-c-k new word savers which i take it to me in some sort of german spicy sausage uh shop of some sort so i i didn't respond but where he was foolish i mean i didn't report it but he's got in his pro he's got his name and his work in there telling me where he met his name and where he works thought i'll forward that to your employer i'm sure they'd be very impressed he didn't just say that by the way there was more in that text that you get trained on that then yeah we do and it was the difficult part is the essential advice is don't go on it yeah easier for someone of my age who didn't get brought up with anyway kind of pick and choose what you do a bit more but for the younger lads it's been and women it's been um more challenging i think because they just live on social media don't they but it's not only that it's your family and friends and everyone else you know who are on there and who are seeing it because they're your biggest fans of course so they probably will note and your name will they'll be maybe searching or maybe looking for or my parents would say to me oh you got seven from the daily mail you must have i was like oh good yeah i'll get four next i briefed my son about um games occasionally i said this do you know this happened yesterday in case something happens at school he never had any trouble by the way but um he i just wanted him to know in case anyone decided to say something and again my my parents are quite elderly and there have been cases where reporters have turned up at the parents of a ref and tried to get them to speak and i said to him just just slightly close the door and don't don't engage you know you see it's it's that kind of thing you're the people around you care about you don't want you don't want them to be drawn into the abuse and because some of it's really grim i mean it's it's most football fans are great and they'll they might give you some stick but then they'll move on but um there's some who don't let go and then some of course are um will threaten and and where you live and all that sort of stuff.

1:09:07No one needs that. Anthony Taylor gets a lot of stick, doesn't he? And this is, again, Mrs. Family's all City fans because apparently he's an Altingham fan. He is an Altingham fan. Yeah, but he is. He genuinely is. Is he? Because we're like, is it one of them where you go? No, it's not convenient, it's true. I know Anthony very well. I've been at games with him where Altingham have been playing and they were live on wherever channel they're on, maybe on Sky or whatever. And he'd be avidly following that game while they were playing. And especially if it was, you know, end of the season, they were going for the playoffs or whatever.

1:09:42No, he's absolutely is an Alchemy fan. I mean, there's no, he's not a convenience. There's all that means I can do everyone else. It doesn't work that way. And I always think it's quite interesting that people think that our motives would even be like that. So if I became a ref because I wanted to be a ref. I was a Swindon. I'm a Swindon fan. I didn't think, no, if I become a ref and I spend 15 years running around public parks, you know, dodging dog shit and helping put the nets up and then eventually after a few years getting to referee on a game where there's a defense around it and a stand with 200 seats.

1:10:15And then if I do that for another five years, eventually I might get on the pitch at a Swindon game and get to influence one of their results. That isn't how it works. And in any event, I declare that I support them and I never do them anyway. I don't do Oxford either because they're the rivals. So wouldn't want to. Wouldn't want to. So it's not even how we think, let alone how it is. Anthony Taylor doesn't give a stuff about the two Manchester clubs or Wigan or Bolton or any of the others around there. He's not like that. He supports Altingham. This is true. I'll tell her that as well. With that in mind, do you think a player could ever go on to be a ref?

1:10:54because I'm assuming every club that they've ever played for... It is a problem. I mean, there is a player-to-referee pathway that they've established, and they've got about... They did have about 30, I think it's dwindled a little bit, where they're trying to encourage X players into refereeing. And they have had that conversation around, well, if I've played for six clubs, and those six clubs are now in the Championship League 1 and League 2, I can't do any of those six, and I can't do their local rivals. because if you're Preston, you can't do, which club couldn't you do? Blackpool. Blackpool.

1:11:31You can maybe have three or four, maybe two or three clubs you can't do. You can't ref us, he used to play for that lot. So you then go through the fixtures, you think, well, is any of these games left? So for starters, if you still live up that way, every week you're having to go to Gillingham, or wherever, to avoid the clubs you can't do. And then you get to the end of the season, Gillingham are playing Blackburn, Well, you can't do that because they could be going for promotion or relegation. It'd be a relegation, wouldn't it? So that game could matter. And they might find there's no game at all that's left.

1:12:05Yeah. Or there's one. And you did them last week. So it is a problem. You know, you play for a club. No one says, well, who do you support as a kid? We can't play against them. You've set that aside now. You're now a professional footballer. and now playing I mean with famous I mean isn't it I think it's true that Carragher was an Evertonian and eventually ended up playing for Liverpool it doesn't matter if it's that's true but that kind of thing would have happened you set that aside and now you're trying to win for your team yeah Michael Owen Michael Owen scored against Liverpool and celebrated you know why not he should yeah when did you used to get your game for the weekend did you just get on a Monday and you know Monday at four typically yep So it's Liverpool-Manuel.

1:12:53That won't be me then. But would you want the big game on the Sunday? Yeah, you'd want. Almost every ref wants the biggest game. Bournemouth Palace, Saturday afternoon at three, it'd be quiet that. Well, there was one who definitely wanted Bournemouth Palace at three on the basis I get the same match fee and no one will be watching and I'll disappear and it'll be quiet and I get to go home and nothing will come of it. That was the exception, not the rule. I mean, we all wanted the biggest game. And it's one of the problems for whoever's doing the appointments is that almost everyone's disappointed, actually.

1:13:34Because if you're one of the top refs, you want to be doing Liverpool Man United, and it's not your turn, it's someone else's, and you are sent to Bournemouth Crystal Palace. That wasn't the game you were hoping for. But what I would say about all the refs, and I can say this absolutely with certainty, is they're all professional and they'll go, I'm now going to go and do the best job I can because next week I want to be on Manchester City v Arsenal. There's three big games for us as the League Cup final, the FA Cup final and the playoff final. Desperate to go on one of those. It is competitive.

1:14:06I imagine it's not dissimilar to a first team squad where you, if you're, I often like it to the guy, if you're the second choice goalkeeper, how you sit in there and your mate, you've trained with all week you want him to do well you want your team to win but you've also got this service a slight thing thinking if they stuff up here i'm in next week so you there's always that little bit of tension i suppose but i know it's when i was fourth official a lot i gave every game my best shot to help that referee because i knew if one of us stuffed up it reflected badly on all of us actually the whole group suffered yeah we were like a team in that sense Who does the designating for the referees?

1:14:48Where is there a certain... There's always appointments. There's always someone in charge of appointments at PGMO and that varies over time. And then I think at the moment what happens is they go into a leadership group that Howard Webb is on and he would approve them. So the buck stops with him. And it's a complicated jigsaw to put together because there are people who can't do certain teams. The refs who are in Liverpool are very much in the city and can't do Liverpool or Everton. so that's two games a week none of them can do Michael Oliver can't do Newcastle or Sunderland so that's two games a week he can't do you can't do the same team up within three matches you can't do consecutive games I think there's a minimum of three games between but that gets slightly more flexible right at the end of the season and also if you really hack someone off you're not going to be sent back you know if you have really dropped a bollock and you've let a team down and they don't want to see you again for a bit you know get someone you know wait until someone else has pissed them off and then send it but and usually you're kind of introduced back to them as a fourth official as a you know an away game or in the cup game or somewhere where it's kind of hello yeah it was me yeah yeah we've all moved on now haven't we yeah we'll kind of not quite but you're forgiven forgive but not forget yeah okay yeah and and but then you move on at some point you have to kind of rehabilitate and go back to those clubs so yeah it's quite can be quite challenging to put that jigsaw together every week this as well and all in it yeah yeah and then they try and plan so they'll try and plan four to six weeks ahead so you know coming i mean a few weeks ago we had man city arsenal that obviously was going to be the biggest game of the season i'm just going to decide possibly decide the title in the end it didn't but it was billed as such they would have been working backwards from that to make sure i think anti taylor after it didn't they um they wouldn't have sent him to arsenal two weeks previously, oh, no, now he can't do this game.

1:16:40They've been planning, obviously would have been planning that and had a backup plan in case he was injured or something else happened. Because we had Jeff Winter on and he was very much in the old school regime, but he used to, going on about the Red Wine Club and all that money and there were certain refs used to grease up the decision makers and I bet you it's different now, is it? there's none of that going on but there's of course personal relationships and people no i don't mean that kind of relationship i'll get that one i'll get that one um yeah there are still people who people are people aren't they so you you get on well with some people and some it's like it's like when a manager comes into a club sometimes they fancy a player sometimes they don't sometimes they want they like this kind of player they don't like this kind of player and it's the same with refs some prefer the authoritarian some prefer the more liberal you know there's all sorts there's so many factors at play you have the international refs who are off during the week so you'd have a ref go off thursday night to do a europa league game can't referee saturday because they'll do they'll leave home wednesday they'll fly wednesday they'll have a pre-match meeting thursday morning they'll do the game thursday night far east of europe somewhere maybe 8 45 kickoff game will finish pushing 11 o 'clock at night they'll go back to the hotel have a meal go to bed alarm will go at three because their flight backs at um sevens they've got to be the airport for four whatever it may be they get back home about lunchtime on the on the friday they're not reffing saturday the vr training friday afternoon it's dockley park most likely um and then saturday they may be vr fourth official sunday they go and ref it's an exhausting and very uh hectic schedule for the international refs that people don't see and people ask their jobs just they're whinging but they don't whinge actually just get on with it but i'm here to whinge on their behalf because it is it is ridiculous that they do that and they're driving our war over the country extremely challenging role and then people expect them to turn up on sunday at 4 30 and do the big tv game and they don't notice that they didn't know that on thursday night they were doing carabag or somewhere and now they're expected to perform to their highest level in a way that we wouldn't expect any of the players to do that who's the best in your opinion and why i would put michael oliver ahead of everyone else quite comfortably really i mean partly because i i'd like to think i referred a bit like that um so it's my my preference if you like would be less kind of middle ground between applying rules um as fairly as you can originally when you really have to but then understanding the moment understanding the passion understanding the context of your decision in a way that i think he gets he gets right more than anyone Clearly he makes mistakes like everyone else, but very few, very few.

1:19:34Of all the key match incidents, which are the penalties, red cards, and the big decisions just before a goal, he's only had three errors all season. I mean, that's extraordinary to go the whole season. And if I showed you the three, you'd go, well, yeah, okay, that is a mistake, but I can see why he did what he did. Players have confidence in him. That's the big difference, because he's got this easy way where you can approach me and talk to me, and I'll explain stuff, but I'll do it in a way that's on my terms and is respectful. But we then move on to the next decision. What do you just do if you get injured?

1:20:08Do you just, is it like you'll go and get yourself fit? Or do you? No, it's physio support. There's more psychological support now than there was. That tends to be something you have to find for yourself. There was always a psychologist. All the time I was in PGMO, there was a psychologist. But it didn't really... it always felt like you were safer going elsewhere because of that there was always this kind of sense that um there's a very conservative organization the very safety first organization and if there was always a fear that may well have been completely misplaced but the refs thought it anyway was that if you showed weakness you'd be protected by not by being taken off games and that was the last thing I ever wanted.

1:20:57If I was having a vulnerable time, the one thing I wanted to do was go and ref. That was what kept me sane. If I was having a difficult time, my other job at the time, when I was in the football league ref, you're usually working elsewhere. So you didn't show weakness. You became more and more resilient to the point where actually it wasn't healthy. You were always fine. So if you ask any, I don't know if this is quite so true now, but it certainly used to be the way that if you asked a ref how they're seizing, they're going, yeah, it's good. Yeah, all good. Yeah, yeah, no problem. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing well.

1:21:35Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fine, all good. Yeah, yeah. Because you didn't, if you said, to be honest, I'm struggling, they go, well, I mean, he's struggling. And if you admitted to that, the fear was that you would be given lesser games. And if you've got lesser games, then they're harder games. It's much harder to do a game between two teams that are struggling than two teams that are firing and flying and trying to win. Give me a promotion game over a relegation dogfight any time. And you might even not be given games to protect you. And it wasn't healthy. It really wasn't. But in terms of physical injury, plenty of support, and they want you back on the pitch.

1:22:19So they did what they could to help you. Did you say that that seems to have changed now in terms of psychological support? They've certainly recognised that it's an issue that absolutely needs to be addressed. And I know that since I left, they've taken in a new person to take charge of that. Because I think that's more of a societal issue, because I know the lads have said it in the game. As a player, you don't want to show any vulnerability. You're not going to get picked. Exactly. It's the same if a manager fights a psychologist in. It feels like we're actually telling what the crap were because he'll go back to the manager.

1:22:51Yeah. And then... Even if they say, don't worry, this is confidential. Yeah. You think... Is it? Okay. So... I've got fucking Torquay Saturday. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, it is a challenge. It is a challenge for the organisation too. And I think, I will say for Howard, absolutely, that he gets that. Howard Webb gets that. He's not... He's, you know, fundamentally a fair person. He wants the best for... And he's a people person. He wants the best for the people. There are some things you can change quickly we know that when a new manager comes into a club sometimes the you watch this you see the team just transforms overnight don't they suddenly play differently everyone's energized and they're up for it but there are other cultures that are going on in the background that can take a long time to change and that's one that um it's i am i don't know i've left been out a year things move on but i i suspect is still still prevalent do you miss it no at all don't miss it I loved doing it.

1:23:49I loved being a ref. I absolutely loved being a ref on the field. I didn't enjoy much of the stuff off the field in terms of the politics, the assessments, the marking schemes. I mean, it was just the amount of – people say we're not accountable. Well, actually, there's too many different feedback loops going on to the point where you can, if you wish, pick the feedback you want. So five people think I'm wrong, but this one says I'm right, so I'll go with that one. You get bombarded with feedback. all week in a way that I would imagine players, you've probably wrapped up your last game and moving on to the next one quite quickly.

1:24:25You've got to learn from what you've just done. You've got to watch yourself making mistakes. You've got to watch yourself doing well, hopefully, as well, and realising what you're doing well. But now we need to start preparing. PJ Marley is still talking about last week on Friday. So they released the findings of the KMI panel on Friday to the refs. You're preparing for your next game at this point. yeah you shouldn't be worrying about whether you got one right last week and what that's now going to do your to your performance bonus which you know is it is a factor you know it should be boxed off quickly and it rumbles on and we get to a vr training session on a friday where we talk about the clips from last week so well we do have to take that learning on but could we not do it sooner so yeah i didn't miss i don't miss any of that at all and being vr i'd love a challenge but i can't say it was ever enjoyable in the moment it's very very stressful and you don't know what you're not in control of events you don't know what's about to happen you haven't got any feel for what's going on in the stadium and as a ref you feed off those micro feedbacks how it's landing whether whether you maybe raised your profile too high whether you could just relax a bit whether the players are accepting you whether you need to be a bit tougher for a bit you have all that feel and it affects how you perform and you're sitting in this chair in this cubicle with these kind of walls that feel like they're kind of closing in while you're doing this while you're going through these checks and it's it's really really really really difficult really tough you don't know how decisions are going to land you can come out and think everyone's going to be thinking i've got this one wrong and and they and actually no one's even talking about it but they are talking about this thing that wasn't even checked you think what wasn't checked what do you mean i didn't check it what handball what handball i genuinely don't know what you're talking about what handball don't they show you a clip oh yeah look there's one angle from behind the goal you didn't show me that there's one angle from behind the goal that shows it oh i didn't see that oh i can't blame him because it's on oh and it's that kind of thing is just it happens all the stressful it does sound like a pressure pot yeah that room have you got someone in your ear right we need a decision now no no no you you as long as it takes it has to be no there has to be but the pressure the longer it goes the pressure must be like there must be what an answer now yeah yeah absolutely okay i mean you can't really hear much down there the headsets the referees are but you can hear a bit and you can hear them you know when the fans start chanting fuck var and you are the var

1:27:12okay so everything i just fucking pour this plug and there isn't always a right outcome and you know that whichever outcome you come up with half the people will say it was wrong anyway. So, you know, at what point do you think, sod it, we'll just stick with the on-field decision and say it wasn't clear and obvious. But now you've gone three minutes and you go, yeah, yeah, let's not change it. And everyone goes, oh, we just wasted three minutes for you to tell us it was right in the first place. Well, thanks, you know. Coming in with a really important message this week, gents, because we've teamed up with Think and it's something that matters to all of us.

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1:29:32Think it's ever going to change? This, what we've just spoke of that last five minutes, I can't see it changing. I think it only, only if you go, make fundamental changes. So when, before VR came in, um wayne barnes the rugby ref came and did a session with us around how they introduced it in rugby union tmo rugby union and they basically did the var model that we have now albeit using the tv broadcasters rather than hawkeye um and he said it didn't work and it hadn't had all sorts of issues and what transformed it was to show the pictures in the big screens in the stadiums have the referee talk over the pictures and explain their thinking and he said what happened was that everyone wanted to listen to what the ref was saying because clearly they're what's this decision going to be you know um so they shut up so what happens now is what we had like we had the other night with the arsenal with the havertz tackle while vr's going through their checks it all goes quiet well gary neville gets a platform to say this should be a red card this should be a red card it's got to be a red card and that does drive the narrative it doesn't mean everyone agrees with him he's not that powerful but it will mean that a lot of people come around to his way of thinking the rare vr comes and goes not bad not enough for me i'm not going to say it's clean i'm not going to recommend a review the unfilled decision sticks he goes he continues he gets his platform if in this case i would struggle to describe it as anything other than the red but let's let's go with it if you say okay i've watched this tackle i can see a clear contact however i can also see at full speed that this is this tackle lacks intensity it's not got the force excessive force required to meet the threshold for serious foul play so i'm going to recommend that we stick with the on-field decision that would be the first thing that people got told and heard people would still disagree with that and they would you know wouldn't that wouldn't also wouldn't sway opinion completely the other way but at least it would provide an explanation rather than what's left is no one really knows what the thought process was and then they fill in the gap themselves the only other option i i i think is a coach's challenge uh model where we don't check everything if you want to so if in this case uh burnley the referee goes yellow go right we would that we think that's a red a bit like the cricket yeah And now the referee, there's no VR.

1:31:55The referee goes to the screen and goes, right, okay, TV director, show me your best replays. And we go through them. And then it's on him to make that decision. Will we get to a point where the computer makes a decision and it's just AI? I think we could. And genuinely, I think we could. Put all the angles in and the computer says whether it's, that's where we're going. I genuinely think you could. if you if you put every red car tackle of the past five years in the premier league the ones that have been judged after the game by everyone is that this should have been a red the ones that were given obviously but correctly and the ones that weren't and you put them in and said to ai the what are the characteristics of serious foul play that justify a red card and then start and you feed them enough i think you would get to the point where you could say you could get more consistency you could say well these are then you've got gary never going unplug it he's got a bug you don't know what he's talking about i've had a good game no i've got fucking sent off by a computer well you know and does this does it work really well in rugby it's people talk about it in rugby they do they still contentious decisions and rugby is a game that's played in a different environment isn't it it's not less tribalized yes much less tribal and it and it there's less sense that it matters football matters to people more somehow doesn't it then then even though a staunch rugby union fans and there have been issues there's an issue recently with a game in france where this because they use the tv companies the suspicion was that the tv director in a french tv company oddly enough found replays that rather supported the the view that the french player had done nothing wrong against the english club and of course there's enough conspiracies and football nowadays, aren't there?

1:33:45That, you know, do we have to check who works for Sky, which teams they support and all that? But fundamentally, we were saying earlier, you're doing a professional job. It'll come to light, you know? So, you know, it'll become very obvious. But I do think the current model, the thing about it is as it's currently configured, I don't think it gets much better. It gets a bit better here and there, but it's around the edges. It doesn't, we've got as far as we can with this model. yeah, we can speed bits up. We could do without putting some of the TV monitors in the stadium right down in one corner, which some do, and I put it on the halfway line.

1:34:22But they're very marginal. They're not going to transform anything. So I do think we need to think more radically to get, if we're going to stick with it. And the alternative, of course, is not have it. Which do you think would be the best alternative? Hook it off altogether? No, I would try some other things first. because I think if if we think about the hand of God we think about Thierry Henry's handball which are always the two examples given but yeah we should stop those we should stop those I think the offside's improved on it as well the offside needs to be even quicker but the game seems to not mind the micro forensic toenail offsides in the way that fans do the people in the game go well that's just offside that's tough because it's not with the ref is it No, the only stress is the...

1:35:12You'll have a look at the focus. Well, the only stress is the weight. Yeah. Because the players get restless and they don't like the fact that we don't know. You can be like that. They're just fucking useless. What's going on, ref? They're useless. What do you think of... Is it Arsene's offside idea where it's... It's Arsene too. Yeah. I'm not a fan. I think let's see how it plays out in the trials but I think there's two potential problems one is you're simply moving the line to a different place so you're still going to have to go right okay let's draw let's get some IA technology or draw lines scale was that heel just behind his knee and all that so you all you've done is move it to a different line the other part I think hasn't really been considered is how the assistant referees are going to adjust to this completely new way of adjudicating offside.

1:36:04So they are exceptionally talented at what they do, which is essentially like standing on the start-finish line of 100 metres and saying who's won when it's a dip finish. You know, it's very, very tight. And they're exceptionally good at spotting things. I think he'd just gone too early, and they'll see his leaning, his shoulder was just off, or his knee. You think, you're just making this up to make yourself look clever. But then you see the replay, and you're like, blah, blah, blah. you're right I don't know how they're going to judge whether a player is clearly his entire body is beyond that of his opponent that's a completely different set of skill sets for your brain to process in terms of what you've seen and for what your judgment is and I don't know how assistants are going to cope with that because they've been doing what they've been doing for a very long time everything's ingrained over so many years we shouldn't set the rules ever because of the needs of the officials but they have got to be pleasable you know they've got to be possible if it works great i mean i i've got no problem with it you could get rid of offside altogether i was speaking to i did a an event with the british hockey team last week and they were saying that they got rid of offside altogether from hockey which was 11 a side game two goals and a ball you know it's not entirely different but they what they found is that defenders have just started sitting deeper and deeper and deeper and it's actually not it started off being better and now it's creating other issues so Titliners.

1:37:29Yeah. One more gripe. Last gripe for me is this hair. Come on, Louise. The hair pulling. Don't get me started. Oh, my God. Grabbing the ponytail. I can get the Cucurella one from a couple of years ago. Yeah. I get that because that was just a blatant. That was violent conduct. Yeah. The others haven't been, I would say. I mean, come on, man. Exactly. I mean, I don't think any of the three are red cards in any sense of either the law as it's written for starters, but also in terms of what feels fair. So none of those three players have in any way gone to pull someone's hair. At some point, their hands come in contact with some hair and there's been a brief moment when they've been, and they put it in still frame, slow motion.

1:38:14It looks terrible, but it's really, none of them are. None of them are, not even close. And I just hope they can find a way of just knocking that on the head. Is that just common sense? like so I would I know the refs have been consulted on this and their view was look can you not just leave it to us to decide whether this is really violent or whether it's something that just should be a free kick and a yellow card maybe or just a free kick none of them were detected on field none of the three it is ironic though that two of them involved a referee who used to be a barber which is a bit unusual so maybe he's just looking for business this long hair lark don't like that you come around my shop getting rid of that but it's it's it's yeah I don't see why the I can only understand why the game wants to stop the full blown hair pull and I know it has been an issue in the women's game where it goes on a bit more and obviously there's more hair to pull and more the women have the ponytail with the longer hair so it's more likely to happen anyway and it but it when you see someone go and actively go and reach and grab it's very different to I'm dueling with you and I'm while on my hands trying to find where your shoulder is I happen to land upon a bit of hair oh I'm sorry I didn't mean to do that and the player goes oh sorry that's not a red card ever it can't be a red card the FA have had three commissions all three clubs as I understand they've appealed these red cards and the ban that goes with them it's not just the red card on the day it's the three matches you know you sit a player off um in the midway through the first half as Sunderland did, you're playing 75 minutes.

1:39:53Well, 70 minutes with 10 as well and missing them for three. They're missing virtually four games. That doesn't feel in any way right. And he's got a roll of his shirt. He's going up there and he's got a roll of his shirt and got a bit of his hair as well. He just can't be right. Did you watch the Chelsea one last night? De Lapp. So De Lapp's looking at the guy and he's gone four or five yards and he's gone bosh, right? and he's caught I don't know what the defender were called and he's got a yellow card for that and somebody's fucking pulled a bit of air and got a red card and free game ban you like I think De Lapp's last night is just on the right side of yellow rather than red I don't think he swings his arm he leads with it he's looking at him innit he's looking at him that's a clue but not a crime in itself I would I think I'd have gone yellow and if I'd been V I wouldn't have intervened if the referee had gone red as VR, you'd probably go, okay, stick with it.

1:40:52But I think a yellow card's probably better out. I don't like it. He needs to be careful because players do get reputations as a referee because they earn them. And he's already had the thing at Man City where he pushed someone off the pitch into the ditch. Didn't need to do that. Cheeky little foul at Brighton where he's raked his studs, which he might dispute that. He might say, I didn't really mean to do that. But his body language tells me that, Yeah, you knew roughly where his leg was. You can be not that type of player and you can be that type of player. And you don't want to have the reputation for being that type of player because you will end up copying one that you maybe didn't deserve.

1:41:27You can get sussed out after a while. Bounty. Kevin Davis with his arse out every week. Lads, this is a paid ad by the unbelievable people at BetterHelp. Because as men, we're typically really bad at opening up. but that doesn't have to be the case. It certainly doesn't. That's why we're really excited to have BetterHelp as a partner. BetterHelp are there to provide us with the support and professionals that we need, whether it's work stress, relationship stuff, or big life changes. BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience. Hold all the required education training and certifications.

1:42:11this covers marriage, social workers and counsellors one of the best things is it's easy to fit around a routine there's flexible ways to connect around different schedules if you've been thinking about therapy BetterHelp can help you take the first step sign up and get 10 % off at betterhelp.com slash kosh that's betterhelp.com slash kosh Do you know when you watch a football match now, do you watch the football match or do you watch the referee? I've almost, for the last 15 years, I've watched the ref. And it's boring. It is quite... I mean, apart from when I go and watch Swindon or if I'm watching England maybe at a tournament, then I start becoming more of a fan.

1:43:04I won't berate the ref. I won't be standing up going at the referee while I'm watching the game. I can't. But next year, you'll be like, just leave off him he's a good lad he made the exact same decision how was that received amongst uh referees you know when mike dean came out and said it was about the hair pulling with kukavella and didn't he say that he was he was on vr and he didn't want to change the decision to protect him was it something like that yeah it was along those lines i think we all understood where he's coming from wish he hadn't said it and also it's that kind of use of language isn't it is very casual and vernacular and it's like yeah that you can make the same point without necessarily saying i didn't want to put my mate in some sort of difficulty sends all the wrong messages unfortunately i know mike i know mike quite well i haven't spoken to for a little bit but he certainly would have intended that of course it's an old school approach to refereeing that you do want think you want things to disappear want them to go away you don't want to draw attention to stuff despite what people think about Mike Dean actually that is fundamentally what he's like it's quite strange because his behavior sometimes makes people think he wants the attention to be on him but he's not like that he's more he's much more introverted and shy than people realize he just but that's his way of coping I think I think this is my amateur psychologist approach but um so yeah it didn't it wasn't particularly helpful uh a 29 year old you now would you go into refereeing again yeah Yeah, and do it all.

1:44:35In fact, I... Even though it's shitty with that VAR stuff. Yeah, I would. Although, if I went in at 29 now, I'd have absolutely no chance of reaching the Premier League. None at all. You've really got to be starting in your teens. And I think that's a shame in... I think I can understand why, because you do... It does take a long time to build a bank of experience. Typical career pathway is kind of 15, 16, 17 years from your first game to the Premier League. Well, that means you, I mean, I've gone to the Premier League at 46. Well, that's crazy. You want to be on it younger than that, don't you?

1:45:08So you really need to have started in your teens. But the problem with that, of course, is you've become a ref before you've played, before you've got that sort of sense of feel for the game, which I think does help. You can be a top referee having never played, just as Jose Mourinho was a top manager. No one would go up to Jose and say, well, what right have you got to be here? Because you've never played. and yet they do that to refs don't they but playing the game does help you if i was 29 now i would i would take it up but i don't think i'd get very far i'd get into the internal league football and then be set sit there and probably quite enjoy it but refereeing northern premier league southern league ispian league is really really tough because you've now got 200 400 people you can hear what they say you haven't got a ring of stewards they've put your car in a space where they've put the word ref and they go that is there yeah well it's hubcapped you know it's so um it's tougher in a lot of ways it's really tough and the football is at that level is um a few ex pros coming down a lot of kids have come out of academies got certain expectations about things, effectively protecting that, with some few village idiots who are actually very good at football, who've kind of come up from proper grassroots, Parks Football, who happen to be good at it, all mixed in together with completely different expectations of what they want.

1:46:42And as a ref, you've got to pick the bones out of that. I can remember seeing a ref, I can't remember who we were playing, but one of them with the balls got smacked in his face and he's fucking gone. Claret down and everything, I thought. I really feel sorry for him. And then he got in his car after and his reg was from a X9 ref. And I thought, fuck, you deserve everything you've got for you. What a wanker. I'm with you on that. What a wanker. Anyone who puts ref on their number plate, well, you're just, you're a fool. And I know a few have and all. Who was the worst manager for getting onto you?

1:47:17Neil Warnock would always come in if they lost and tell you you were poor. You were poor. to know what's this strange word you're like you're you're poor

1:47:32if they lost you know well Neil you haven't come in yet wouldn't say that when you've won anyway Neil just tell me this Neil right you say that you never get anything off refs don't you right yeah yeah yeah and you do the same thing every week don't you you just moan all the time right you just break the ref yeah yeah yeah So why are you, have you ever thought about trying something different? Like, be nice. Well, we just get, oh, no, no, we just get so frustrated by your mistakes. It's like, well, your marginal gains? No, no. So, yeah, it's just exasperating, really, that they just think that if you shout at him often enough, berate him long enough, eventually you'll buckle and give us something.

1:48:20Well, of course, in a game, you do get a decision you probably shouldn't have got. You go, oh, there you go, it worked. Yeah, but what about all the others before it? It doesn't work. I don't think it works. But it's the habit of everyone in football, isn't it? Just have a go at the ref. Maybe try something different. Get to know them. Humanize it. Break the ice. You're going to go, if he really makes a bad decision, you're going to go. That's different, but not just routinely. I mean I know it was before your time in the Premier League but Alex Ferguson used to always seem to be powerful and the way he used to mention it drop it into interviews after the game and it's almost manipulating what goes on in the next couple of weeks.

1:49:02So you think get a good referee next week who might favour you know. Yeah I think so there's often a debate within refereeing around this around how much influence the club should really have around appointments for example. So if you take Fergus as an example, he goes to town on this ref, ref X, and says they're rubbish and absolutely batters him in the papers. Are you going to send that ref back? Probably not. But if you create an environment in which only the refs that he's prepared to tolerate get to go there, then he's now choosing the refs. Now that's not right. So you've got to be stronger as an organization at that point.

1:49:43But where does the balance lie? Very difficult. difficult um but i mean i think that has changed in that there is more open dialogue between the pgmo between howard and the club managers and owners and so on and i think there's more a lot of that's routine and what i really don't like is clubs doing these statements where they've admitted they were wrong and we've had our apology there's never an apology anyway it's always yeah we got that one wrong so you know um but we're not sorry you know it's just that's what's happened We just were. Yeah, we just were. And I don't know why we have to have that kind of pantomime.

1:50:18Can we not just let that go on in the background? We always ask players, if you've got, having a Sunday afternoon drinking session, which three refs would you want in your company? Oh. You maybe need security. You might need somebody for entertainment and then whatever. Who would I have? I could probably list the ones I don't want. What was the song Jeff Winter sang? Oh, was it a great and pole? I knew what it was. I just didn't want to sing it myself. I think I might actually take an historical perspective and go to refs from yesteryear. Jack Taylor is the longest with us, although I did get to meet him once.

1:51:02But to go through the referees who have been at the big tournaments, I mean, Clattenburg would be interesting to have. uh i've worked with worked with him several times and he was absolutely fascinating as a person as a kind of he's a he's a case conference for a psychologist but also in a good way and there's all sorts of things going on there um and then possibly try and think who would bridge bridge the gap between the two um you ever come across kevin lynch yeah yeah he's he's great fun yeah Lynch is on my table. I know he's been on here. Yeah, Lynch is on my table. Yeah. No, he is great fun.

1:51:46And that era had, there's some real characters in that group. And I do think that we're losing something by the referees who are coming through at the moment do have a kind of similarity, sameness that does look a bit robotic. Probably a bit like players now. Yeah, they can be. academies are producing players who don't make decisions for themselves aren't they they're very process driven um that's what it looks like i wouldn't know but it looks certainly what it looks like on the field did you ever meet kalina no no i mean i know nolan yeah i mean he got literally on the force of his kind of personality's appearance didn't he really good ref was a really good ref he was a he was a very good ref yeah I mean I don't think he was the best but I would not now they ask me who is because who is the best I mean you can't it's one of the features of the job you can never perfect it you can never be the you can never be the finished article you always I guess that's true of a lot of things you're never the perfect player are you you've always got you never score every goal or win every tackle but he wouldn't I'm interested to see a referee now with the current demands because he would have been, you know, I don't know how he would have coped with going to a screen and being told he was wrong.

1:53:11Quite possibly with difficulty. A lot of referees in that era would have done. It was difficult for us. I don't know. Really hated going to a screen. Oh my God, this is so embarrassing. I've made this mistake. And you realise after a time, actually, no, this is good. This mistake you've made. Yeah, you've made a mistake. At least we put right. Do you think there's ever time for refs after just come out and actually apologise right I just fucked up the Emirates or just give their opinion I don't think any merit in that at all no no so I always thought that would be helpful I made a mistake today and I'm I just don't know the reason why you made a decision I would do that on the field I would admit if I made a mistake and I would apologise for it there and then but I'm not coming out and doing it afterwards I don't see any merit in post-match interviews I think the question would be why did you get it wrong and he said well standing where i was looking at it once in real time not knowing what not knowing what was about to happen next that's what it looked like now i've seen other angles that i didn't have at the time that you're playing me at different speeds that i didn't have access to i can see that i would have made a different decision it's gonna be the same interview every time in it yeah i don't i don't think you're gonna get it last night i just couldn't keep up so i don't think it adds anything yeah you know what i mean there would be no balance there wouldn't be any and people aren't actually inquisitive and curious frustrates me especially around um the journal i'm a journalist as a journalist myself the journalists who work in football so many of them just lack curiosity they'll just go why oh why did the ref get that wrong they go hang on a minute my job is to find out why the referee got that wrong why did they get it what is it that's gone on there that's made them reach that judgment because they is wrong so what is it that they've done that's incorrect?

1:54:58What was their process? What was actually going through their mind? Was it about their position? Was it where their eyes were landing? What is the process here? No one seems interested in that. They're just one of a pot. And get the apologies if that will somehow make anything better. It doesn't get the points back. You've lost anyway. The player's not suspended or is suspended. We could be better than that, I think. Well, Graham, thank you very much. a few times really enjoyed that good enjoyed it too so hopefully get some stuff out of it shit var in it get it scrap I can't believe I've learnt a new rule as well that throwing one yeah educational that's the one the other ones the ball people go about the ball on the quad you see fans yeah that's fine you see you think oh I better go and check got the one for the corners yeah you see I used to do the body language somewhere go on I'll go and check for it get there it's fine