Sammy Lee | Jury Duty

40:23It was. Graeme allowed me to come along with the team as well because obviously once you've done your bits, these air teams used to play in different days to win the first team. So it gradually encouraged me into the first team. And then obviously when Roy gets in, that gives me more of a chance to go there as an assistant coach, you know what I mean, to them. And then thankfully later on when Gerard Houllier came in and Phil, Phil Thompson again, Phil asked me to be the assistant. So we had Gerard Houllier, Patrice Berg, who's a fantastic coach. Phil was the assistant manager and Phil got me promoted into the first team to be an assistant first team coach so that was the path for being a reserve team gradually going travelling with the first team you know to learn about things and also what happened is we had no kit men at the time so basically we were the kit men the coaches were the kit men so I was not a pair of hands about this to kit out we never had a kit man until Gerard Julia came so all the time you learn it becomes a bit organic to be honest you're asked to go involved you have to be involved you're doing the coaching but also you're doing all the little mundane things I see Ronnie Moran would put the kit out I'd help him and all them things and then I say Gerard Gerard really comes in and he invites me to be a coach and be a proper coach then in terms of just coach rather than be kit men and things like that Some players come through at that time as well during that period just looking at that Carragher Owen Fowler Gerard McManaman you'd have seen all these through each stage I know you're in the mall I didn't tell you I know you're in the mall you know but thankfully I didn't now you're very true there mate it was a great pathway great pathway you know and again our academy as it was you know I have to say to you some great players came through there you know and yes I was very fortunate working with people like your Fowler's as well your Owens your McManaman's you know just Red Knapps your Catechises the Erards the list is endless you know and once again that was helping me develop as a coach you know as a young coach to be involved with them.

42:22And again, I keep on using this word, challenge, you know, and honestly, Cara challenged it every single day in a good way because he wanted to improve, he wanted to learn and he wouldn't just have a session put on just for session's sake. He'd want to know the reason behind the topic. Why are we doing this? And as long as he had the answer, great. Thankfully I had the answers for it, you know. How would you get to the point as a coach slash assistant manager where, say you're coaching and all your job is just to put sessions on and take the lads Monday to Friday How did you get to the point where you're in the office the day before a game running through potential team selections and having your say, you've got that responsibility to put it to the manager?

43:03Where was that that changed? There wasn't one brusque change. It was an evolution. I was able to get invited in because they'd seen the enthusiasm, they'd seen what I was wanting to do. Thankfully, these guys like your Roy Evans, your Dougie Livermore, Ronnie Morans they'd invite me and they'd be part of it you know sometimes we'd go away honestly you'd go away with the team so the Friday night you'd have your meal and we'd go into one of the rooms and it'd invariably be mine because they could leave whatever they wanted then you know what I mean so so we'd have there so are they going to bugger off you're not good and honestly you go in there and they give you a drink and next thing the spotlight be on you it just got like Ronnie unbelievable Ronnie he said what would be your team tomorrow?

43:50I go, what? It was fantastic and it wasn't just one particular moment it was a graduation you went through and I think they realised that you could trust me they realised I was hard working they realised I only wanted the best for the football club and for the players that was involved so they felt that it was from what I can gather they felt that it was a natural progression to allow me to come in amongst them and to be part of the decision making making process that being said as an assistant as an assistant coach as a number two it's nothing like being the number one because ultimately it all it all finishes on his door which I found out later on when I became a head coach for five minutes and then I think what happened but honestly it's great when you can have your input and thankfully all these guys that I've been involved with they've had the trust in me to allow me to have my input and as long as I wasn't you know too loud or too overbearing and it seemed to work.

44:49Were there any of them players who came through, sort of your Owens and all that, who did better than what you thought? And on the flip side of that, were there any of you thought, nah, I don't think he's going to make it, and ended up going on and doing really well? Isn't that the same question? No. One of you thought, right, he's... It might have been the same. You have to be twice. Same question. You know what I mean? I'll be the first one you fucking dickhead anybody who ended up being better than what you actually ever thought they would be no I'd have to say honestly because again when you get to that level of Liverpool Football Club there's always an expectation of your quality and people always ask I'll put it a different way if you don't mind who was the best player you've ever coached and they always wanted me to say the same like you know meet your Stevie's this way your cars are this world they were natural all they needed was guidelines the parameters to work within and a lot of people would hang on the back oh I coach Stevie I coached Carragher he had a coach but I'd never say I was just there to facilitate them being the best he could be you know giving them guidelines alongside Gerard Ulley and Phil Thompson and Patrice Berg they were just fantastic talents but as a coach one of the best players I've ever been involved with was Lucas Laver I say this all to it when people ask me the question I'm pretty sure Lucas Laver because Lucas Laver is a fantastic guy great person great player and as a coach he's coming over and he's hanging on you in every word but you're right to your point where I've been very very fortunate to work with some fantastic players and it may sound like a bit of I'm sitting on the fence as a cop out I think when you get to that level at Liverpool Football Club you know there's always going to be a level a certain level that then they never got underperform or underachieved so I never felt someone didn't do it I always went wow fantastic pleased to see them you know becoming the best version of themselves that they could be which as a coach that's all you want putting you on the spot a little bit who was your favourite manager to work under at Liverpool it is very difficult and you're putting me on the spot mate but I'd have to say to them all and again I've been very very fortunate very fortunate but for me as a player as a player the Paysley guy was it was unbelievable never gets the credit he deserves took over from Shankly as I mentioned before the great people of Shankly where the foundations were all laid with him wasn't the eloquent auditor leader that Shanks was but wow what an astute an astute tactician the way he read the game he just you know and he had a sense of humour which doesn't always come out doesn't always come out but he did but I'll give you an instance as we go on his tactical acumen 81 semi-final we played Bayern Munich at Anfield 0-0 we're going down for the second leg to the Olympic Stadium the old Olympic Stadium as it was now again Bayern Munich one of the great bastions of European football as are Madrid as are we and they made a massive mistake massive faux pas you know on all the seats in the Olympic Stadium they put the travel directions of how to get to the final in Paris and that news filters down to us the you know the Vorsprungdorf technique they think they're there German bastards I'll let you say it sure you can say that I don't swear I mean swear I mentioned someone else swearing not fucking me someone else swearing you know and that comes down to so think about we've had the first first, it's nil-nil you then go over there and we train on the park the night before and it was just to get the dimensions or whatever you get to feel the pitch next morning you know our day to day we have our meetings fans, fantastic go to the stadium go and have our warm-up before the game just about to go out to line up alongside them Paisley said like chaps said brilliant great training session yesterday warm up your honour you're honour he said but we're going to make one change now we never made changes he said we're going to make this one and I will look at each other he said Paul Brightner did a great job on us in the first day great job on us so we're going to go man to man on him now don't forget we're lining up just to go out the dressing room to go line up against them he said not only did I he said we're going to put Sammy to Markham now think about it respect healthy respect no fear of your opponents we've had our preparation nothing's been worked on last minute he just says we're going to put him on now if he'd told us that the night before I'd have wet the bed I'd have wet the bed I wouldn't have got any sleep whatsoever my colleagues would have wet the bed they wouldn't have got any sleep and they'd have gone and knocked on the manager's door and say what are you doing I know that for the fact that's what he we're man to man and Sammy Sammy anyway I goes out I stuck to him like a limp I stuck like he never got a kick I never got a kick you know but there's a massive part of us getting through that and the fact that Howard Gale great friend of mine the first black play to be for Liverpool came on a sub random ragged to the point where he came on a sub he had to sub the sub as I take him off we got a great goal from Ray Kennedy we end up qualifying qualifying for the final in Paris and thankfully we had the directions after James you know but my point being it just shows you how astute he was because honestly if he had told us that it wouldn't have happened if he had told us that on the Monday in our preparation for the Wednesday game it wouldn't have happened because honestly there'd be a mutiny there'd be a delegation we don't need to do this and we certainly don't need to put Sammy on him.

50:41That's not going to work ever. But that just told you about the tactical action and the guy, I repeat, the man management, unbelievable. That must have been... You just thought, fuck it, I'll try that. Well, he may have done, he may have done, but knowing him, no, because his guys, Ronnie Medanjian, Joe Fagans, Henry Roy Evans, they'd have been in the war room the night before. The war room would have been in a hotel room with a bottle of whiskey, that's what it would have been, and lemonade and ice, and they'd have been talking over them. And that's how that would have got done. Because they never did anything off the cuff.

51:12That's what I'm saying. He was very astute. But that must have been a massive piece of education for yourself in man management. The fact that you're at the centre of it and you've said yourself you'd have pissed the bed if he'd have told you the night before. I think I would have done worse. I don't like swearing on your... or losing some of your viewers or listeners. But yeah, of course it was, mate. That's what I'm saying. But he never gets the credit he deserves. the guy was just a great man manager and it's sad because he followed on from the great Bill Shankly he's the most successful Liverpool manager ever in terms of trophies you know certainly one of them and you think never ever gets the credit he deserves from not that he needs because the people who know him will love him we know what he means to the football club not what he means but what he means Were you personally good do you feel at that man management identifying who needs a bollocking who needs an arm round them I did as a coach as an assistant I did you know but again it's easier not very it's easier as an assistant as a coach than when the number one because the book stops there and I have to say to you when I did eventually get that number one position which I thought I'd done all my preparation for all my studying for all my experience all my education for when I did get that position I failed miserably mate In what way?

52:34Well I've got to I stopped being me. I stopped being authentic. You know, I stopped being Sammy Lee. I took advice off of someone. When I got to the manager's job at Bolton, someone said, wear a suit. Now, I've always been a tax suit man, you know what I mean? So I wore a suit and we're playing at West Ham. And you may have some listeners. West Ham have never forgiven me anyway for 1981, the cup final, the league cup final, milk cup final, whatever it was, you know when they blame me for a goal I shouldn't have but we'll talk about that later on so I'm there and I've got my suit on yeah and the twist and I'm feeling miserably and them and they're singing you know I won't say your suit from Matalan your suit from Matalan and I thought great because I knew the people who own Matalan they all agree they thought fantastic it was actually from Mothercare my suit I was going to say Builderberg no but Builderberg thank you and honestly it was one of them I think I stopped being me and when you lose that authenticity I think the players they're the first to notice it so to your point I find it easier as an assistant because I can get amongst them they can bounce off me have more of a connection and also if they slaughter me on any given whatever they've lost nothing you know what I mean but if you do that to the manager you can lose an awful lot you know what I mean but when they do it I'm the sounding buffer I'm the buffer they're the ones they can bounce off they can slaughter me whatever you know but if they do that to the manager there could be no you know no comeback from you know so at the end of the day for me it was easier you know and that was that's my i think my personality i love getting amongst them i love getting amongst the players you know and i feel that was if i had the strength in that that was one of them you know did you know early early doors when you got the the bolton job do we just was there a time when you thought fuck me i'm i'm struggling here i'm out my depth i'll give you an instance i think i mentioned before um journalists who i've got a lot of respect for a lot of respect still i've got a lot of respect for him, he'll remain nameless but I remember him writing, you know, Sammy Lee, great number two but too nice to be number one, I mentioned just beforehand, too nice to be their coach and you know, later on when I got the job back with Rafa, he was having an interview with Rafa and he was in the waiting room and I said oh hello, I said Sammy, Sammy, Sammy, Sammy, listen I don't know you Sammy, I said well you said you don't know me, I said that's fine, I said but why write that I'm too nice you can write that the results were being poor which they were you can write that a lot of the players didn't enjoy what I was doing because again I tried to impose my philosophy on them and it wasn't for them you can write that a lot of the staff wanted to go and leave with Sam which they did and I get that but if you write it too nice prospective owners are going to hear that and nice in our game is perceived as being weak and once you get that labelled on you then you know prospective owners won't want to come in for you I don't think I think you can be nice and be strong but I know there's a lot of owners who think when they call you nice you're weak yeah you know so but you're right again I made so many mistakes and I I tried to change too many things too early and it's quite strange because Sam and I had identified that things needed changing you know in the police but Sam moved on from then and could you have gone with him he never asked me which I wish he had done you know what I mean no No, I think, again, he was brilliant to me.

55:57He still is brilliant to me. You know, we talk all the time. And at that time, I felt it was the right thing for me. And he certainly felt it was the right thing for me. I'd been at Bolton for two and a half years. And being with the players, great. We'd gone into the oven, whatever. Loved it. Really did. But again, it was me that changed. You know, I've got nobody else to blame. It was me that changed, i.e. the suit, i.e. the things I tried to implement on the pitch. You know, and as I said, me and Sam had identified that things needed to change. but Sam had moved in that time and I'll never forget talk about the press we're about to play them and the week after but we're playing on the Sunday and he's in Newcastle and I get a text off him and he said thanks for the headline so next I go to the press what's that?

56:47he shows me and in the headline I blame Sam for everything so I don't know I said Sam, why are you texting me? Why didn't you just ring me? He said no. But what had happened is it had just been headlines over headlines. We'd identified that things needed to change and we were going to change, but obviously Sam moved on. But to actually get that and say that I blame Sam for that. So they twisted it. Yeah, I got a few F-bombs off him for that. You know, like, and rightly so. have you ever seen him looking so smart I honestly haven't he looks absolutely fantastic what's he what's he got on he has got the new 25 26 under the cosh strip I tell you what this giving me 2002 England vibes Beckham Beckham great in Greece funny enough Chris when I looked at you that the last person i thought of was david beckham but you do look good the new shirts out now and available on our website and on the o 'neill sportswear site can i introduce the awake it we have designed them ourselves it's south american for me i feel don't know why i'm getting them vibes but i like it that's twice you've said vibes and i don't like that word you know that so I'm not getting any vibes, I'm just seeing two lovely kits.

58:10I'm not getting vibes at all. You don't need to complicate it, Chris. But we've mentioned it many, many times. O 'Neill Sports were, you know, supported the last three series of the podcast. And if you want to get your own team kitted out, how many can you get? Minimum order, John? Minimum order, seven. Seven? About as many as you want from here. How quick can you get them on your doorstep? Four to six weeks from design to delivery. If you're looking for a bit of a size guide, that is a medium. It is a medium. that Chris has got on. Loose fit, I'd recommend. No, but the link's in the description.

58:41If you want to sort your own team out or get an under-the-cost shirt, click away and you can get sorted out. Great present. Yeah. Yes. Oh, sugar, yeah. What a Christmas present that'd be. And you can still buy the older kits. You can. If you like them more, that's sound. We're not here to judge whether you like this one better than the last one. Get whichever ones you want. So the link's in the description. Get yourself involved. and a massive thanks as always to O 'Neill Sportswear for supporting us.

59:14Are all batteries the same? That's like asking if all soccer players are the same. Take Messi, the most decorated player ever. Is there any other player who has achieved that? No, just him. Now take Duracell. Is there any other battery with Power Boost ingredients inside? No, just Duracell. Goats only trust goats, because they're built different. and Messi only trusts Duracell. What was the sales pitch like when you first met Big Sam? Did it involve a trip to Dubai? No, it was no sales pitch. It was total intimidation. Bullying. Again, it's quite strange. I was working for the FA at the time and like we were talking about before, we had a course in Borough.

1:00:05It was for the managers, you know what I mean? and Moise was there, Mick McCarthy was there, as I said before, Sam was there. Again, we've done our little bit in the day. In the evening, as I say, we were in the bar having a nice little drink. He just went like that to me. He looked at me and we had a nice hour or two and he looked at me and said, you're bored, you. You come and knock on my door in the morning. You're bored. I've lost me two coaches, which was Maka and Phil, Phil Brown, he said, come and see me in the morning. so I go and knock on his door and the next morning I'm nervous anyway and you get there and you know he's a big man Sam isn't he you know the robes you have on the back of the door the towel and robes that don't fit anyone it certainly didn't fit him and it's

1:00:57it's hanging down and he's got the hilarious pair of under kicks on you've ever seen and so he goes in there so next thing he sits me down and he lays on the chaise-long couch, like Julius Caesar. He's just there scratching his manhood, and then he just turned around. He said, listen, I've lost me two coaches. You're aboard. You're coming to join me. I said, okay. And we'll walk down. That was it. No talk. I figured, yeah, just somewhere to get out. But it was, I have to say to you, it was the start of something that's been very, very good for me, very good for me. And as I said to you before, I've been very fortunate where I was some of the best, some of the best, because you don't get to Liverpool or England without being some of the best and he's up there with them.

1:01:39Were you given big responsibility from the off? You know, you've had these roles at Liverpool in the FA. Was that the first time you've gone in and he's given you the responsibility? The great thing about him is that he gives you ownership. All his coaches, as I say, we have what's known as the ballroom. Every coach has a voice. But at the end of the day, it's his decision. But he likes to have a consensus of opinion. but yeah he certainly gave me the ability to develop as a coach and it was a great start for me what's been not only a fantastic professional relationship but it's a great friendship I consider him a true friend Could you fall out with him?

1:02:19You know you said about that Man City one when you clashed heads about any examples of All the time I used to fall out with him honestly to God the good thing about it is that he didn't take offence at it you know he said to me he said to me we used to argue all the time there's loads of instances but you know, you say you're the only person I know who doesn't have small man syndrome. Now, I didn't know what that was, but obviously he looked at me and said, you know, because I used to honestly, it was just something that, and the greatest thing about it, one of the greatest chances that he could take that and he would not take offence at it.

1:02:47It's not like you didn't go over the top, you know what I mean? It's only went too personal, but you knew that full. I was never sycophantic with him, never sycophantic with him. You know, at the end of the day, we always had this opinion and I think that's why it works so well, you know, and the biggest one, as you say, was the city, because honestly, the city, because don't forget we're in Everton and massive club and he's got me there against a lot of people like at the time didn't want me to go there I had the chance to go there with Ronald, Ronald Coleman sorry, that's wrong I'd been with Ronald Coleman at Southampton and I thought he was going to take me with him to Everton that didn't get allowed to happen I think Bill, Bill Kenwright who I love and I've got a lot of respect for I think Bill was a bit wary of the fact that I may have left him under the pool and he understood that Bill so Ronald said well, okay, no problem.

1:03:33But when Sam got there, Sam dug his heels in and said, no. What in your corner? Yeah, I want him to be with me. And that's no disrespect to Ronald neither. It's just that I think Sam knew. The great standard like to Bill, Bill Kenwright, is that Bill knew the issues that could arise from someone from Liverpool to invest in Liverpool could be part of the Everton set-up. But all I said to him and to everybody said, judge me on what I do, not what I've done. And again, to his credit, Bill, as I say, got nothing but love and respect for him. He's done fantastic for him. football club on our first game and yeah there's a lot of issues and whatever surrounding it and as I'm doing the warm up Bill does no more than come on the pitch and hug me Was that on the pitch before a game?

1:04:14Yeah He came on the pitch I'm doing the work I knew the game and he came on and he made a point to come over to me and all the crowd could see All the fans concerned You were like get off me I thought I was getting sacked again I thought I was getting sacked again before I even started but no it just shows you the strength of the guy Bill Bill Kenwright nothing but respect and no form so Friday Friday in your meeting in the war room you've given your opinion Sam's not took it on board what you said would have worked on the Saturday you got beat because of whatever it were do you like say on a Monday morning told you told on a Saturday night it would be the most would you you'd just put them eyeballs into the group wouldn't you I'd say told you so But could you do that?

1:05:02Because to be fair, I did say that. Yeah, but I would never do it. I never feel the need to do that. I can never feel the need because at the end of the day, once you have that concessive opinion and the views, what happens is the moment you leave the war room door, you're all of the same opinion. You've had your chance to go in and convince somebody, high press, low press. You've had the chance. The only way you'll find out is when you play. So at the end of the day, for me, it wasn't for me to say, I told you, I never ever said that to him anyway. I'm only joking. but we'd know How did Sam get or you get as a team some of them players to go to sign for Boat and Wanderers Well Sam's very he's very persuasive as I've just told you I hope it wasn't He's signing for us on balls pal I hope it wasn't the same as he got me because otherwise I don't think we'd have got many of them there but no Sam was very detailed and he had Mike Ford who was his second in command and honestly they had this this bible they had with Boat which basically when players come in and he'd present them with this saying, this is what the club is all about, this is what, you know, the standards you've got to adhere to.

1:06:06And he was one of the first I ever envisaged where he had player liaisons, you know, he had prayer rooms and the thing. He realised that in the likes of Ramadan where people can suffer because they're fast and all day. He had this global view of the football game, you know, and I just think, wow. And again, what you've got to do when you sit in front of people, just be honest. you know because as I said to you the players can sush you out you know when I stopped being authentic when I stopped being with me they sushed it right away you need to skim over the Bolton Town Centre yeah yeah so you know well but the thing about it we had the iconic stadium and you'd always meet them there you know when you come to that stadium it's fantastic you know you come off the M60 M61 M60 it's just great to see that you know what I mean it's just a wonderful iconic stadium so he was honest with them he gave them his philosophy his view he gave them what he wanted out of them how he thought that they could improve the club and he stripped it down to basics get the basics right you can win any game any football game against any football team and I firmly believe that to this day I think one of the toughest if I put myself in an assistant position one of the toughest things would be obviously the manager's your boss in a way but you don't want to lose the trust of the players you want to keep the players on side as well is there any examples of like players stepping out of line or something but you thought the manager doesn't really need to know that I'll keep that between us yeah there's a number and as you say mate there's a you know without going into specifics you know what happens is as an assistant I know full well the same things that Sam doesn't need to know didn't need to know about one thing I did do I'm never Ivan Ivan Campo who I love I love but this again is a digression but again Sam let me at me and I was out of order, me and Ivan.

1:07:58And I used to wear like a cup of Mundial, you know, the rubber studs on the touchline. So we've had this bit of a, you know, the first half's not gone very well, half time come in, so he let me rant and rave for whatever reason, so I'm thinking he knew I was going to get battered by Ivan, you know. So like I've gone to Ivan and he's had to go to me and I know we're squaring up to each other. I know I'm like, put him up, put him up. But I start straight, I've got to go for Mundial and it's quite fortuitous because I start sliding backwards I think that was done purposely you know what I mean you know I'm on my studs and I'm sliding back and like that and honestly it was like the cowardly lion in the Wizard of Oz trying to fight me you know but I get it thankfully you never come to that but from that moment onwards I always wore different you know training shoes on the side you know and I put it down to the Cup of Mundial which I love the Cup of Mundial but I just but basically I think I was backing off anyway you know but the good thing about and it's quite strange because Sam just laughed at that after yeah Sam just laughed at that because he knew it.

1:08:57And it was, again, it was, it's hard to put into the way the only fact that the one I would say is just trust. Just taking a second, gentlemen, to say thank you to our sponsors for this week's episode, Aura Picture Frames. The perfect Christmas gift, if you ask me. I've got one at all. Underrated. Fabulous. Digital picture frame. Exactly. Every different slide has a different memory. Yeah. I like it. Basically, you connect your app on the phone, and how many pictures do you have in your reels on your phone? Too many. Do you just get lost? And there'll be some good, really nice ones there with the missus, with the kids, all the family together.

1:09:39It just gets lost in your phone. A couple of taps, it's there in the picture frame. There are memories there on display. Can you set these to whatever photos you want? Yeah. Exactly. So I'm going to have a picture of me fat. Put it next to the fridge. Every time I go for a donut, I look at my picture frame, stop me going to the fridge. You should do a special one. For that reason. With your finger out. No, no, no, John. How hard is it as well thinking, oh, we could do with the freshen up with these pictures in here. Oh, I've got to take it back off. I've got to roll clipper, get the picture printed and all that.

1:10:16No. It's all on the app. Tap of a button, new picture. In the frame. And you can have them scrolling as well. You know, like every... Yeah. Now and again, it changes. Go on, ask me the question chris do we have an offer of course we have an offer we have a special special christmas offer because for a limited time you can save on the perfect christmas gift by visiting aura frames.co.uk and get 35 pounds off aura's best-selling carver map frame which was named the top frame by the independent all you've got to do is use the promo code kosh at checkout that's aura frames a-u-r-a frames.co.uk using the promo code kosh and the deal's exclusive to our listeners and frames sell out fast so order now to get it in time for the holidays and make sure you mention under the kosh at checkout to support the show and as always terms and conditions apply so good so good so good new markdowns up to 70 off are at nordstrom rack stores now stock up and stay big on shoes tops dresses accessories and more must-haves for summer join the nordic club to unlock exclusive discounts shop new arrivals first and more plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free great brands great prices that's why you rack

1:11:42Any Jufy stories? No. No. All those ages that I am. I was with a lads in Liverpool and then Sam brought him to Bolton and Sam knew what he was doing when he brought him to Bolton. In fairness, Sam loved him. Sam got the best out of Jufy. Got the best out of Jufy. you know and he knew the fact that me and Jufy we had hard issues with each other but listen it is what it is you know what I mean but no Sam just knew that when he introduced me into the destiny he looked at me and you know he knew that the challenge was on sort of thing but listen again Jufy as I said to you with Sam Sam got the best out of Sam got the best out of Eladge you know he did very well what did he do to get the best out of a ball because it obviously didn't work out at Liverpool.

1:12:37What was the difference? He treated him like a son. He treated him like a son, you know what I mean? That must have been frustrating for you though. Well, no. In a way. No, because... Like the opposite of the Uncle Nobber. No, no, no. At the end of it, because I had no issues with Juve before. What are you doing on trail? Yeah, I had no issues with Juve. As I say to you, the assistants, there are challenges in every football club, you know, and I say to you, and I know, I know, I know that I just got, issues with other players, you know what I mean? But that's up for them to sort out. For me, again, as an assistant and as a coaching team, you've always got these egos, these people who you have to, all you have to do is just try and coach them along, try and get the best out of them.

1:13:17And Sam and I certainly got the best out of El Adjad at Bolton. And he was, he was, honestly, he did very, very well for Bolton. I don't think he appreciated, when I got the job, the head coach, I don't think he appreciated what I was trying to do, but I fully understand that. I don't know this for a fact, but you know if you're on an away game in the hotel was he a stickler for pints you know lads have the meal get back up the room he was in the bar him and his staff having a good well what Sam used to always do I mean I've always done two halves I never drink pints I only drink two halves it doesn't get you falling I suppose yeah in case they drown yeah no but Sam listen again all Sam had to do was to reward his staff we'd work very very hard throughout the week and all he did Basically, all the work was done by then.

1:14:06There'd be certain ones who'd have to, there'd be a rota, who'd have to stay behind me to show the players were all right, you know, and looked after. You know, and all he wanted to do was just reward his staff who'd work very, very hard. I know he should give them a nice meal and then say, the chance to just sit down, relax, and, you know, and have a few, glasses of wine, whatever you want, and again, a lot of people won't be able to understand that, but that was just Sam treating his staff how he wanted them to be treated and to show them the appreciation that he has for them and the hard work that he did because a lot of the time it was itinerant staff because he was able to bring itinerant staff from who've gone on to bigger and better things you know what I mean some of them in the NBA some of them in the NFL now so he always gave them the opportunity but he always just wanted to show them the appreciation for the hard work that they were doing because you know he said them guys in them positions they're not getting best paid you know he just wanted to say get a token of his thanks for all the hard work they put in.

1:15:03Not as a season, but every week. We've had a couple of lads on that were at Liverpool under Rafa and mentioned that they felt that he was quite impersonal compared to other managers that they played under. Did you feel like you had to pick that personal side, that relationship with players up? Well, I didn't feel I had to. That's what I did. That's what I wanted to do. I think that's, again, I think that's my forte, if you like. You may disagree after today. you know I think that's that's it one of my forte because again in any in any management team you have to have a blend you have to have a mix and I feel that that's the good thing about these managers these head coaches is that the best ones are getting the best mix because there's certain people who are better at certain things because there's a number of components that go into the coaching elements you know and the management elements it's not just the picking of the team it's not just the ranting and raving on the trust line it's everything and I feel the better ones bring the people who can trust again keep on using that word but who would better at different aspects of the coaching tree if you like.

1:16:04On the back of your question, you know under Benitez was that something that he'd address or was that something that you picked up on that you're going to have to do that, was it something where he's going to go to you, listen I don't get involved in the social side of things I want you to do that or was that something that you just had to do yourself I think again that's the only thing I did do again if you don't mind because what happened was that you'd go in and see what whoever it was, they'd bring me in to fulfill a role, the role would be the role that they didn't particularly want to do, whatever that may be, you know.

1:16:36I mean, one of the things, a simple thing, that even the travel from the hotel to the ground, you didn't want to be any more than however many minutes. Now, in London, that's very difficult, you know, because time travel doesn't equate to the distance because of the traffic. But he brought me to do a thing. But again, I feel one of my stints is that when I get in, I throw myself in, as you say, into the pint glass. I throw myself into that old art. I immerse myself in it completely. I think I can sense, I can smell what needs tweaking, what needs addressing, what needs looking after, what needs pushing to one side, what the manager doesn't need to know about.

1:17:17I feel that's some of my strengths that I have for any head coach. One of the great things is which he never gets credit for, and certain people need to know, the art anthem, You Never Walk Alone. Now I've been a supporter all my life and I've been a player and I guess then he says to me, he brings me in, Sammy said, You Never Walk Alone. He said, well, it's played while the players are in the dressing room and I didn't even, didn't even register with him. And that's what happens it was. So Brian Hall, one of our ex-players who's head of communications out of the great guy who's sadly since passed away, you know, I went to him and said, Brian, you know, and initially he said, well, we've done like this for years and I said you know but Rafa's right he said you know the timing of it is the players aren't even there they didn't say anyway lo and behold we changed it and now look what happens you go out there now and the players line up wow you'll never walk alone it's on masterstroke battle cry masterstroke it's hard anthem yeah masterstroke and you got there and if you don't feel it when that's been there on any given night certainly European nights then there's something wrong yeah and once again just a masterstroke and he just went to me and said Sammy you know the people you can talk to and that was Rafa Benitez people don't know that about them again it's about the details without putting a downer on it you know when when you lost your job at Bolton was it was it relief was it a case of for fuck's sake I've worked for this and it hasn't worked out or did you feel comfortable knowing that you've tried it and it wasn't for you it was a shame I felt ashamed I felt I'd let myself down I felt I'd let my parents down I felt I'd let my mates down it was a shame losing a position is not something to feel comfortable about mate and I said I didn't feel comfortable, it was shame, nothing more and from the first moment on I realised, to your point you asked me the question before I never felt out of me depth but I felt as I was doing things wrong because as I said before it changed but no it wasn't relief at all it was shame nothing more, nothing less and I've never quite got over that you know and And it's easy for me to say, well, I realise now I'm not a number one.

1:19:27No, one of the biggest things is the emotion I felt was shame more than anything. I felt it was to let everybody down. I think it's quite a bold decision to be able to self-reflect and realise your own skill set and have a realisation that maybe my skill set's better here than... Well, Chris, I hope so, mate. I mean, at the end of the day, but as I say, when you're being sacked as many times as me sometimes, you have to reassess, you know what I mean? You can be pig-headed though, can't you? And think, oh, I've not, in my eyes, been a success here, but to actually have the self-reflection of going, do you know what?

1:20:10I'm actually better at this. Well, you know, particularly when it looks like a pig, like me, because when I was in the show, she used to call me saying anything, it was El Therrado. I'm thinking, that sounds great, El Therrado. I didn't until I realised that what I mean is, El Cerdo in Spanish is pink, because I'm small, fat and pink. You know what I mean? So, you know, you look like me, yeah. You're going to have to have a big pair of self-reflection. But I do that every day, to be perfectly honest with you. I go on thinking, how was the session today? Did it work out right? Were the players enthused?

1:20:46Were they motivated by it? Were they incentivized by it? And I went in the gnar. I'm thinking, well, why? with the size of the pitch too big with it too small and every single day you know I used to go home and re-evaluate what I've done you know and then you know go back to what you said before honestly I never felt out of my depth but I knew even from the moment I'd say when I took advice to wear a suit on the line I said really? Really? It was a lovely suit as well from Lees but it just didn't look good on me you know what I mean? It just didn't but honestly it's them little stupid tangible things that you can identify I'm doing that to players right away I changed and what about sorry Sammy what about like you know when you're assistant you haven't got to deal with this but leaving players out did you the first time somebody knocks on the door and say Gaffa why the fuck am I not playing I blame Sam still go speak to him go knock go knock Go knock on his door.

1:21:50Go knock on his door. No, there's obviously a set. But again, as long as you're honest with them. Honestly, because once again, they know when you're pulling the wool over their eyes. You know, and I've always been honest with players, sometimes to be detriment, you know, but I've always been honest with them because at the end of the day, they know, you guys have been it. You know. You know when someone's, you know, giving you BS, you know what I mean? You know, and I never, ever wanted that. you have to be there has to be a certain amount of diplomacy you know you can't be too brusque with them you've got to let them down lightly but no I think I think as long as you're honest with them mate and then when he does take the honesty I say well go knock on his door as I said go speak to him We've heard plenty about Big Sam's Dubai trips from a player's point of view and from Sam himself yeah what is your week on a Dubai trip as the coaching staff I can never remember.

1:22:47It was always too good. No, it's like everything. He likes them to relax, but there's got to be an element of training there, which there always was. And again, Sam had this thing, listen, you work hard, you play hard. You've got to make sure you're there the next day because we're there for a reason. And at the end of the day, what you want is, you want that when you come back to the Premiership again, is that you're ready to go again. And I have to say to you, yes, there was enjoyment, but also there was an awful, there were certainly training sessions in there as well, you know, because at the end of it, you can't have one with the other.

1:23:23You know, for me, you've got to be professional about it. I mean, there's times, you know, me and me maybe argued over that. I remember we said, we may need a training session tomorrow. You know, sort of thing, you know what I mean? Or maybe the other way around, you know. But no, I think, listen, again, you know, you're there for a reason. And, you know, the reason is to make sure that when you're going back to face it again, is that you're ready you know and honestly one of the best ones he may have told you when he was at Palace and David Steve Steve was a great great owner great chairman Steve Parrish brilliant he allowed us to go to Agadeer and Sam always likes the guys to get into the sea and sadly or seriously sadly there's two guys there who'd never been in the sea before couldn't swim well never been in the sea before and he's get in get in you know and I haven't been in the sea before but because he felt that was the best healing process you know being in the water but again what he's always done he's always gone to the owners and said this is what I'm doing it for you know and he's doing it for the right reasons you know R &R rest and relaxation but within that within that honestly there's always I know he's giving you tales of whatever but there's always there's always a training element in there How did you find working with the England team?

1:24:40How was it working with England? I loved it I loved it to be you know and you know you heard all these things about you know little quangos within the group and all the plays but I loved it I certainly didn't see that and I again all I was trying to do control what I can control get in amongst them try and be enthusiastic try and motivate them try and incentivise them you know I loved it and I thought again working with some of the best in the country was for me as a coach it was like you know after Liverpool after Liverpool fantastic experience and also to work with Sven Sven was are absolutely diamond, diamond, image of a grip, lovely people to work with.

1:25:19There's just so much more scrutiny in that environment and different things you've got to manage. Remember when it was all about the wives and the girlfriends going to the tournament and all focus is on that when you're just trying to win a tournament? Again, that's all we can focus on. We know what the press were doing. We know that was because we hear the press, we see the press but at the end of the day that's what they were reporting on all we could do is make sure that whenever we were on the training pitch everything was prepared for them it was set out well for them there was a theme to it and just again for them to be the best version of themselves they could be and honestly whether I'm naive or I was in the bubble I didn't again I know there's rivalries I know that there's rivalries within the local football club but I didn't see it to the extent where it was divisive and it was stopping them from achieving what they wanted to achieve maybe I was wrong were you a good referee by the way no no shocking shocking I'd say shocking honestly but did you do it on purpose a lot of times it was a war I mean I hadn't even got it right then no shocking and that was one of the worst parts I used to do because honestly the players took my challenge honestly used to used to challenge at every decision and I'm only tossing up I'm tossing up no it was no I never enjoyed the referee and you know he likes your Steve Stevie McClaren they used to love giving the whistle to me I'll tell you that now because they knew full well that once again everything would be on me sort of thing you know oh yeah no I never enjoyed it I've heard stories of assistant managers walking past players and going go down the next time you get it I'll give you a penalty just to wind people up that's up to them mate I was just getting I was just getting it's an F and penalties you fat look under a team you're talking to me no I never enjoyed the different year they're always right the players were always right you know you have three different players and they're all right and I'm in the middle going oh it is a thankless task the amount of shit we used to give Robin oh fuck me well I used to want the games to be two minutes each way then get out the way honestly no shocking I was shocking every day jury duty you got done by jury duty the leads yeah yeah Yeah, bizarre.

1:27:43That's mad, that, isn't it? Bizarre. Yeah, Sam gets the opportunity to go to Leeds and I'll never forget it. It's the restaurant they're going to take you guys to when you're over, Vincenzo's. Lovely family run there, Italian restaurant, brilliant. And I'd had no inclination of it. Sam phones me up on the Monday, bank holiday Monday. I mean, he said, get yourself down here till he's tomorrow. We've been in there, you know, the play's ending tomorrow. They're coming in Wednesday, so get yourself down. I said, but Sam, I've got your duty tomorrow. and he said yeah we'll be able to get off that he's assertive isn't he yeah yeah that's the football mentality yeah we'll get you off that Parker do you know what's amazing because I put a letter in off me so listen weeks previous because one thing you don't want to do in Liverpool is be on Geordie duty in Liverpool your family could be involved you know what I mean so like I just didn't want to be but not for one minute because it was so late sounding he's not going to get a gig now and honestly I didn't and I'd put a letter in saying look because of I didn't you know and I got a and I actually turned and I said I may get a club or whatever not for one minute thinking I would I got a letter back and I wish I'd have kept it of the judge's clerk or judge's PA we appreciate Mr your situation and in the fight you know you could be getting but your employment situation and your economic situation has got nothing to do with your moral obligation to be a juror.

1:29:17So be there on that day. I felt as if I was in the dock. So it goes on the Tuesday, and truthfully, it goes down on the Tuesday. And there's a young kid comes in. They've all been aware of this letter. It hasn't come out yet that Sam is joining Leeds. It comes out later on that day. And he said, we're all fully aware of you, Mr Lee. He said, but the judge is adamant. adamant that nothing could be deferred. I've heard people say you can get deferred to whatever. I've heard a lot of people say that, right? And we'll come back to that in a minute. He said, but this judge is adamant that there's going to be no deferrals, wouldn't you?

1:29:53So therefore I couldn't get it. And I never had a chance to go and join Sam at Leeds. And from what I can gather, and again, someone may correct me when a jury says, well, it's down to the individual judge. The protocol or the process is down to the individual judge. Because I've heard a number of people say, I got it deferred, but I certainly wasn't allowed to get it deferred. I reckon he'd got an Everton shirt under his under his black thing or a Leeds shirt didn't want me to go there you know what I mean so yeah so I've been joking I wonder if it was in the bottom three with the Leeds at the time yeah it could have been a fan of whoever it was and thought we'll stop that happening if it's up for him honestly because honestly people told me he can get defied well I wasn't allowed to get defied and I got in and it's quite strange so the next day then you have a form for loss of earnings so and there's a limit obviously and I go to the woman I said to Saka I said what about loss of a job she went you're the first I've ever happened to she said you're the first and I said well thank you what were the case oh yeah yeah might be a bit of confidentiality yeah well I'll ask you that after yeah when we go to the restaurant next time you're up He's pissed off at you guilty.

1:31:12I'll put my thing in now. He's guilty. Can we go on now? It starts tomorrow. That's the two weeks, that's all I'll say. I messed up with the tenure that we were supposed to be in anyway. I think you've got four games, Sam, to save them, yeah. If you get a manager's job tomorrow, are you bringing in his assistant? Sam. Just for the role reverse. I'm bullying. Just turn up in your dressing room. Yeah, just say, come to my room tomorrow. And I tell you what, it's a great question, mate. It's a great question. I formed a very good friendship with a guy called Robbie Stockdale, who was a very, very good coach.

1:31:47I played with you, Robbie. Yeah, something like that. Very good coach, honestly. And honestly, to the point where I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, we moved together at West Bram. I felt he's the one I felt who I could let lead the session. The detail that he goes into. So if I ever got the chance, it'd certainly be him. on topic what would you do with the Liverpool team at the minute

1:32:13I know it's happening with my Liverpool team Mo Salazar is out of the fucking thing he's got to win his dream team the fantasy team he's been fucking crap it's difficult at the moment because listen I've got to be careful obviously diplomatic but it's not working at the moment but I don't find that they've got the balance at the moment and what I would like what I would like when they're playing against a low block which they invariably do I would like and I've said this all along and I'm not I wouldn't dare tell on the slope what to do but for me I want us to move the ball quicker I want us to move the ball with a bit more intensity a bit more pace on the pass because when you're up against a low block if you're passing the ball slow it's easy to combat you stay in position so if you keep on moving the ball quicker a gap will appear then you can penetrate that's what I'd like to see Lock in at the ball I reckon Pardon?

1:33:01Lock in at the ball Do you think? Yeah Goal cart and then 15 points Goal cart in lock in do your best lads bit of team building do you think that's honestly gone out of the game well it hasn't to the detriment of it it hasn't gone out of my repertoire mate I know it hasn't gone out of Sam's repertoire you know I know the game has changed you know but there's still certain elements that you can implement you know and there's a number of ways a number of ways of getting of improving the team the team unit the team bonding the camaraderie you know but at the end of the day I think it's about I keep on going back to this authenticity if they know that you're trying to do the best for it then they'll respond to it they'll respond to it and I think at some point it'll click I'm hoping it'll click because I'm a supporter Best player you've ever worked with?

1:33:52The best I've ever played with is Graeme Chinesse The best I've ever worked with I'd have to say to you there's well I'll give you three if you don't mind but there's the Stevie's without a shadow of a doubt unbelievable unbelievable Xabi Alonso who had the talent you know different different class I'd have to mention Carragher because I think and people may say well is that because he's your mate but he's not my mate I wish he was but he's not he works so hard to make the best he could be of himself and you look at what he's doing now in his punditry shows but the guy was great student of the game great student of the game and he improved me as a coach because as I said to you before he challenged me every single day as a coach and I love what he's done I love what he made out of himself I think he'll say to himself he was limited now when you say limited that sounds like critical but I'm not he knew what his talents were and he made the best of the talents he had Chabby Alonso I have to shout out that was one of the best players you know in modern day at a Liverpool Football Club but you'd have to say Stevie in some of my coaching days you'd have to say Stevie Stevie G and again I've been very fortunate to work with your Suarez of this world your Michael Owens of this world but actually at Liverpool Football Club it'd have to be Stevie G Were you at the club when you were on the back run of Chelsea?

1:35:16Yep Did you pull him to one side and say you can't do that Stevie? No no it's not for me to make any players decision up on things like that you know he's got a battery of people supporting him you know family, friends agents stuff for them but again and all those stages that I'd try to make any player find it difficult to leave the Liverpool Football Club by what I do on the training pitch with them. I wouldn't want anybody to leave the Liverpool Football Club or any club I was at because they didn't think they were getting threat right or they didn't think they were being coached right or they didn't think they were being prepared right.

1:35:49So that's, I can only, again, I can only control what I can control. I wouldn't dare influence the player off the pitch to what he should do as regarding any other club. Scott, it's refreshing you looking back at Carragher the way that you said that he tested you as a coach like I imagine most people would be like oh he's fucking pulling me up again my room but you saw it that he improved he did for me and you know at the end of the day we can all improve and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to sit on any fence at all you know all those stages that and this is a common theme when I've said from the moment I stepped into the place the fact that I was challenged as a player and then as a coach and I loved that and I loved that and as long as I had the answers for them then that was fine that was fine you know what I mean and I used to make sure that I give myself a bit of time that if I didn't have the answer I'd find the answer I'd go somewhere and find the answer oh I'd just go somewhere but no I think as with all the players I think all he wants is answers you know to why why we're doing this why am I not playing why am I playing where am I playing when am I playing as long as you get the answers and as long as they're honest answers then and as long as you as a coach can back them up then I think I think you've got a chance with them Sammy cheers for your time yeah thank you very much what's next would you go back in anywhere not anywhere mate you know listen I think I think it's gone now I think it's a young man's game more than ever you know that's not my because I still think there's a role but I think again perception is it's a young man's game more than ever I think a lot of these owners are looking at young coaches which yeah I get I fully get but I still think there's a bit I'm enjoying the fact that I can mentor of young coaches now as well, which has given me a way to put an input into the game, put back into the game.

1:37:36And I've enjoyed that role. But if I was to be asked, if I was to be asked, I think I'd enjoy going back in. I wouldn't say anywhere because at the end of the day, it's all consuming. I'm enjoying what I'm doing at the moment. And I wouldn't have wanted any other way, apart from being all consuming. That's the way I approach anything what I do. I'm not sure. I think the way the season's gone, the way the game's changing back I think when we use Sam for example I think people are going to start going for me maybe he's alright maybe he should go back to that the saddest thing is that they say maybe he's alright you know they're thinking now maybe you know you know when you were talking about before even about styles of play you know it's a fashion thing as you say it's cyclical football is cyclical comes round comes round but also I'll contradict myself on that because I think I think there's you can put any element in any game.

1:38:29You can have a longbow. I mentioned Man City before. You've got to be adaptable. You've got to be flexible. And I don't think you have to wait 10 years before you start introducing a long throw. You know what I mean? For me, if you've got that in you, if you can use that, then you set pieces. The amount is like 45, 50 % of the goals scored now, aren't they? I've been out of the game, so I'm not too sure what the percentage is. But it's growing all the time. So for me, there's no reason why these things can't be implemented. So the perception from the outside, that if you just got rid of all the media, fans and everything, and you just had 20 teams playing against each other, everybody would be playing different ways, wouldn't they?

1:39:04Well, I'm having£50 on Sam Allardyce, next Liverpool manager. I'd tell you, I wouldn't get rid of the fans because the fans are what make it as well, mate. The fans are what's your show, you know what I mean? I just mean from the perspective of the style of player. I'm not picking the style of player. What I'm saying is that, honestly, I think everything's about the fans and they're what drive you. you know good and bad you know heaven forbid that you get comfortable heaven forbid that you get comfortable in what you're doing heaven forbid that and thankfully at the place just up the road you never made you feel comfortable never never felt in Cali 857 appearances still didn't feel irregular trap trap man we go for lunch and we used to come we're out next Monday funny enough and we go there and Cali comes Tomah comes Aldo comes Balansy comes Bruce comes Yannan hopefully Rushy this time and Jason Jason Mack we have a lovely lunch we get there at like 12.30 and fantastic we throw up put the ball no chance you put the ball away and we leave it out the only reason I know when I leave is will you be received the next day you've got time picked up and all but it's just great we need to meet them guys and that's why I'd love you to come I'd love you to come honestly we need to be in there next when yous are up just give you you can all have my number honestly i think it'd be nice you know come along there have a nice bit of pasta and a few wines well it's lovely there men of braille as i said to you but i'd say i'd introduce you to a little bit of wine just to be polite you've no chance to be polite i'll get back here thanks very much it was okay boys thank you cheers

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