UP500 What Just Happened: McLaren's valuation; New Newcastle CEO; Ryder Cup future

20:02James Emmett:So Newcastle United, a mere two weeks into the start of the Premier League season, have appointed a new CEO to replace Darren Eales, who is battling with cancer and has had to step down although I hear he's doing very well which is cheering news um Newcastle have appointed Dave Hopkinson um to the role of CEO Dave Hopkinson Canadian man I'd also describe him as a bundle of fun Richard um he you're a bit of a tucker for a sort of nor a smooth talking

20:39Richard:North American aren't you James you like you I remember talking on this podcast about Jerry cardinal and you there was almost a sort of sexual tension the way you uh talked about his voice his his and i i'm i'm putting dave i like the way you called him dave and not david that's a nice

20:54David Cushnan:sort of homely touch it was david in the press release david in the press release but james

21:00Richard:has gone straight to dave dave no well for those of us for those of us who are instagram friends

21:04James Emmett:with him we'll know him as team hop of course um but uh yeah dave hopkinson dave hopkinson the new CEO at Newcastle. He is a Canadian man. He's got a glittering resume. His latest role, which he left around about a year ago, he was president of Madison Square Garden, New York Knicks, etc. The world's most famous, but probably not so good anymore arena. He was there for three and a half years. Before that, he was at Real Madrid as global head of partnerships for two and a half years. And then he spent a good sort of 25 years building his career from the start at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, where he finished as chief commercial officer.

21:56James Emmett:He's got the resume as the sort of global sports leader. He's got wider bona fides as well. I do know him a little bit, Richard, as you will have noticed. I wouldn't describe him as caramel tongued like Jerry Cardinal, but he is a really great commercial storyteller in the sort of classic North American mold. I'd describe him as a sort of sales architect. He likes talking about big deals. He likes talking about building sales team structures to get towards those big deals. And he is a lot of fun as well. It's an interesting appointment, I think, in that it's, I mean, in a very basic level, it's a foreign bloke coming in to run a very English organization in Newcastle.

22:54James Emmett:Obviously, there are lots of skills that you need, that any leader needs in this kind of position. management, communication, strategy, an idea of how much change, how much of a change agent you're going to be. Then there's also the sort of specific Premier League CEO skills that you need, managing up weird stakeholder environment, the politics of football. And then Newcastle itself obviously has its own unique set of dynamics, a fervent fan base in the city dominated by one football club, a big sense of place there, which is sort of probably challenging for a foreigner to come in to. A unique ownership environment, obviously still the scars of Mike Ashley there, but now you've got PIF, the Saudis, and the Rubin brothers in charge there.

23:52James Emmett:that's a challenge to manage upwards with those folks. And then they're off the back of a really tricky summer with leadership transition. Obviously, they've brought in... Losing their best player. Yeah, well, they've just, at the very end, lost Alexander Isaac. Yeah. And struggling with PSR regulations, new sporting director, which I'm not sure whether he's announced yet, but all the indications are they're going with Ross Wilson from Nottingham Forest. Would have been great to have him in earlier to deal with all of this stuff. So yeah, he's stepping into an interesting job.

24:31Richard:So, okay, so loads of questions as ever and good luck to him. The path that he's taken, which is again, one that we've seen repeated, which is the commercial guy gets the big job. And, you know, so you've gone from director partnerships at Real Madrid, which is a very, very different job to CEO. and he was the commercial guy in the States. So he's got to, the questions will be, can he make that shift? Because it is a massive shift, but it's a well-worn route, but you've got Bullingham at the FA, you've got Masters at Premier League, you had Richard Arnold at Man United. It's quite often the route because they're, you know, they come with the credibility of the commercial bit.

25:13Richard:And I'm sure, you know, it sounds like he's got that bit covered. the the question i was reading the in the athletic and the guy's name is i should quote him chris war who is the athletics newcastle guy and he makes a very interesting point down the bottom of his piece very long piece as ever in the athletic you got away through a lot of words good words but a lot of words um he makes a point about the he has one of the jobs is to ensure the process driven approach of PIF, Saudi Arabia's public investment fund, the club's majority owner, can be sped up. Keen due diligence must remain, but there have been suggestions that a meticulous approach excuses indecision.

25:58So, which I think is a really nice question in terms of that, the madness of football, the transfer market, the movement of people juxtaposed with a sovereign

26:13Richard:wealth fund and a financial sort of body which moves at a much slower much more considered pace and so that is is a tricky bit you've just identified the you know the newcastle is a brilliant story and it's a you know in terms of the fans and the locality and i've you know if you've ever been to a newcastle game it's fantastic it's a really great experience it's in the middle of the city and the whole city just walks up towards it it's a it's a quite a thing to to be a part of and then it's great that you know they're they're having success and one of the stories running in around the um the league cup or the whatever it's called now the caribou cup was you know the oh great you know newcastle fans have something to celebrate but then you've got this juxtaposition with the ownership team and what they want and their ambition so i think this is a really difficult job and I think all of the things that we that you've suggested there the North American approach to sport comes in with a PIF ownership and let's see how that goes because both of those are coded words and obviously he was they say he was their number one pick and they're very pleased to have him and he sounds like a very capable bloke yeah I agree with you

27:36James Emmett:I think it is a unique challenge at Newcastle. And I think if you get it right, the rewards are probably massive. For the leader who can establish Newcastle as a giant of the game, which is surely what the ownership wants, then that will be absolutely the work of a career. That'll be a defining legacy. But if you can't do that and you get bogged down in exactly the scenario and the various dynamics that you've described, Richard, then it's only a matter of time, right, before you're off and they're trying someone new. I do think to Chris Waugh's, is it Chris Waugh, the athletic piece and the question over speeding up PIF's processes.

28:28James Emmett:I do think with sort of, and I appreciate the athletic is long read stuff. It's still mainstream football writing. And I do think there is an over indexing towards transfer business. And I think that's a lot about transfer business, right?

28:46Richard:Yeah, you're right. I think you're right. There's also, and I'll get Dave in a minute, but you've got the question of where they sit. And again, it's an interesting sort of gap between Newcastle and what they would, you know, you'd call the big six. I like this phrase because it includes Tottenham. But just in terms of turnover levels, you've got Man City, 715 million as of 2023, 24. So the last time the accounts. And that goes through Man United, 6-6-1. Arsenal, 60. They're all in the 60s. Liverpool, 600 million. Tottenham, 528 million. And Chelsea, 468 million. And then there's a drop. Newcastle are the seventh number there at 320.

29:29Richard:So it's quite a gap. All of those things, I completely agree with you about the obsession with football transfers, which is sort of idiotic and, you know, is a small part of the job. And the way football clubs are evolving, you've got these football departments, but he will get the blame. that's the caveat that comes with the CEO job that doesn't come with the chief commercial officer's job is whether it's merited or not he will get the blame if it's not changed and they're not responding and they don't buy the right players and all you know if they start and if results on the field it's a complete attribution error it's it's complete nonsense but it will be on the back pages his face appears on the back pages it's him that is going to have a take the stick because that job, the manager's job, has almost evolved into the CEO's job in terms of the public face and the blame.

30:26Richard:And we're seeing it over the last few days with Daniel Levy and Spurs. You know, you're seeing where actually people are projecting onto, he's gone, it's a new beginning, and the manager is neither here nor there. You know, it's like a sort of, it's just a pawn in the game. He's been devolved. And that would never have taken place under, you know, a sort of previous, you know, 20 years ago.

30:46James Emmett:Just very quickly before we let David have a say on this. I do think that the relationship between so I think there are two, well there are three key relationships, right? There's Dave Hopkinson and their owners above him. There's Dave Hopkinson and Ross Wilson, the sporting director and how that works. Obviously that decision-making structure wasn't there throughout the summer. This is why Newcastle are in the position that they're in. Perhaps PIF could and should have acted earlier to get that decision-making structure in place. And then there's Dave Hopkinson and Peter Silverstone, who is the chief commercial officer at Newcastle.

31:30James Emmett:And to bridge that gap that you're talking about, Richard, from revenues of 300 million-ish to revenues of 600 million-ish, right, to establish themselves in the top order of the Premier League. It's partly about sustained success on the pitch and European prize and participation money, but it's a lot about putting the commercial structures in place that make it efficient and legal, and particularly in this era of PSR and increased scrutiny on sponsorship that comes attached to ownership. These are smart guys with, you know, a lot of experience at big organizations, working commercial structures, you get deals from all sorts of different places, and you have to funnel them into legitimate, appropriate partnership revenue.

32:33James Emmett:And I think in tandem, how Dave and Peter work that will be critical to Newcastle success.

32:42David Cushnan:And just to add on that organisational point, as I was listening to you two, I was just sort of trying to tot up, sort of from memory. So don't take this as gospel. But I think there's probably 13 or 14 Premier League teams who have had a new or replaced their top executive over the past three, four years. We could top that up, but it's a sizable number. A new breed of top people coming into... How many did you say it was, Dave? I'm going to say it's 13 or 14.

33:20James Emmett:I've got 15. I've got 15 Premier League teams with new CEOs or no CEOs.

33:28David Cushnan:Yes. Okay. So it's a lot. It's most of the league. And I'm wondering, is that usual? And am I comparing that with an era that has now gone where you effectively had a chairman who might seemingly be there for decades? Are we in that sort of executive chair? And by the way, the same thing is happening with F1 team principals as well. Much shorter shelf life than historically has been the case. So I think there's maybe something in that. And it probably speaks a little bit, Richard, to your point around blame. These figures do now get coverage in the athletic and in more mainstream. Well, they're talked about in pubs.

34:12Richard:you know and you know they they are because they're figureheads but they're semi-public figures yeah and they have become as i say i think they become the new managers and they have be and that makes complete sense it's a really interesting stat that and and it's worth tracking that isn't it over time in terms of because that it just talks i think to the the elevation and the way in which the just the job in a way I mean these are very highly paid capable people we don't need to feel sorry but there is a level of empathy because they don't have control over their own destiny in terms of you know the they're they can do everything right and get the sack yeah and and on the on the uh I'm going to

34:58David Cushnan:call him david david hopkinson point um i wonder given his career and his uh very clear skill sets and where he's been previously one of the reasons he's been effectively sort of headhunted and picked out for this role is because there still is in addition to all the stuff that james was talking about uh an evaluation a prospect potential of some kind of new or heavily refurbished stadium project in the medium longer term at newcastle which is obviously to the point you made richard about you know where that's wherest james's park is located and how that how that works in terms of the city seeming like it's traveling as one en masse to that stadium that's very sensitive and emotional topic in a one uh one club city but i wonder whether he you know his experience of you know activating venues um and conceptualizing how you commercialize a venue could be something there and as we know from the daniel levy case if you prioritize or are seen to be prioritizing a new stadium it can leave you open to accusations that you are somehow neglecting the football side And so that then becomes another potential headache.

36:17David Cushnan:So these things are really difficult and complex and long term. But I wonder whether that's another.

36:21Richard:The other bit is that we are living in a world where the sports football accountants are now social media stars. So the Swiss Rambles, Kieran Maguire's of this world where the accounts are the thing that they're talking about. and so they club every club the man that's above the manager's pay grade or it's not something that they can talk to the manager about so you need someone who can articulate that now the question is and without meeting on going on and dave's recommendation of dave i like dave rather than david like the informality of dave but um of james's recommendation rather you've got this issue of the front face it's like politicians they they have to be capable but they also need to be able to handle the media they have to have the comms bit and they have to do that in a way because you've got these different audiences you've got the football media which is just a 24 hour circus transfers injuries teams up and down winning losing blah blah blah that's just normal stuff, but really intensive.

37:35That's the managers, the face for that.

37:38Richard:You've got this other media circus, which is now building around the business and we're partly responsible and or part of it is part of the business conversation around football. And everyone is talking about, you know, what's the salary per revenue and all of the sort of Deloitte type conversation that we used to talk about. And it used to be a business conference type thing. That's now on pages and you've now got that going on you need a club needs someone to face up on that the owners don't want to do it so part of the role of dave hopkinson is that he's going to answer those questions and he's going to be the face of that and carry the can or get the credit for that meanwhile i would suggest that the ownership level the sort of one percenters the pifs the the you know the rubens they are not going to get involved you won't get hold of them in a way that you know most owners don't show up you won't get stan cronker on a podcast anytime soon you won't get the glazers all of that is just noises off that's for small people to work out you're employed to do that you carry that out we're the ownership class so i think sport you know and we see that happening all over the place and i think it's not a very healthy environment But I think, you know, it makes the job.

38:58Richard:I'm sure you'll get enormously well paid and well rewarded. But it's I think it's quite a difficult job. But I'm going to jump from here. To my story, because it brings together very cleverly, and I was sort of planning this all along, many of the themes that we've talked about.

39:15David Cushnan:Can I just say, Richard, before you do this, I was thinking about how you've really quite skillfully turned the presumably the notes you all prep for the bundle into another piece of content to be able to send out to people. And I was just flicking through our WhatsApp chat to prep this. And I'm not sure you've got the same raw materials.

39:40Richard:Are you talking about yourself?

39:42David Cushnan:I'm talking about the three of us.

39:45Richard:No, I don't see it in that way at all, actually. I think it's a completely different product. But I will take your notes on board. So my story is the Ryder Cup. So this week, the Ryder Cup teams were announced. The captains, Keegan Bradley, Luke Donald on either side said who their six picks were. And now we don't need to worry about who the teams were and what they did. But there's a few points that I wanted to make. Obviously, I've written a book on this. So, and I'm not, this is not me plugging a book I have, and it's, it's now still available on Amazon. But the reason I wrote that book was one of the conversations that we are having at the moment, which is that I was, I went around and talked to loads of Ryder Cup captains, and they all just told stories about previous Ryder Cups.

40:37Richard:And it became obvious that actually the conversation about leadership is so silly and it's so quite often infantile. It's quite often it's full of attribution error. So once you realize that, you can't unsee it. And we talk about our business leaders. We talk about politicians in the same way. Sport is at the forefront of this. And I was the Ryder Cup captaincy is probably the daftest case study of leadership in sport that you can find because it's three days every two years. The captain's job is to carry the story through the vacuum that nothing is happening for two years. So the only two certainties are the venue and the captain.

41:19Richard:And until that, you know, until last week, they start to fill in the gaps of who's going to actually be playing on the three days in New York at the end of the month. So you've got this challenge that doesn't stop us entirely waiting credit and blame on the shoulders of the captain. So if you win, you are the good captain. And if you lose, you are the bad captain. Now, from those two basic myths, stories, we start to then project. We're incredibly clever at projecting other stories on top of it. And one of the questions that is interesting about last week is that they both had six picks. Now that, when I spoke to people like Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus and Tom Watson, they hated picks.

42:09The American lens on picks, you know, so for the people who are not, haven't played their way into the top 12 on the money list, they are the captain's selections.

42:21Richard:that's very un-American. It's almost like socialized healthcare. It's not the American dream. You should play onto the team. And that's what the Americans always did since 1927 up to about the sort of mid-80s when they started losing. It was just 12 players who were on the list and you picked them. It was only in 1981 when Europe said, we need Seve Ballesteros in the team, but they started inventing picks. And then since then, then they had one and two and three. And now we've got six. but all of that gives you greater focus on the captaincy so one of the questions um at the moment about the Ryder Cup is its future it's an odd thing and I always there's a sort of analogy with British and Irish Lions tours where they are very popular despite not quite fitting into what the money wants the sport to be and it's it's a historical anomaly it's always been resented by the Americans because they don't get paid for it the American players the PGA Tour doesn't like it because it didn't didn't own it pga of america owns it so there's a clash there tim fincham always hated it created the president's cup to try and rival it which is crap now we're at a moment in the cycle which is very interesting and and about live golf so you've got this live golf moment and i'll just recall a sort of there's a i was at the open this year at royal port rush And I had a chat with people, I see someone you both know is Lara Toscani Weems, who is Live Golf's new head of comms.

43:55Richard:And so she used to work with Scott O 'Neill, as you know, and Scott O 'Neill is now in charge of Live Golf. And we were at the side of the green on a practice day on the Wednesday. And we had a good like sort of 45 minutes of a very nice chat. and she was asking me give me your honest explanation of why you don't like live and there's lots of reasons i don't like live but i don't like the golf i don't think the product's very good and i told you all these things but actually when you're standing there amongst the you know what obviously were mainly irish golf fans of us you know they were wandering around and they were sort of milling around some of my uh antipathy to live is about the Ryder Cup and I think that's quite a generalized thing as well because I think live it's sort of ruining could ruin could undermine this thing that we've been invested in I've been invested in the Ryder Cup story since 1980 so that's you know my whole entire adult life and including some of my childhood so it's and a lot of people have grown up with the Ryder Cup as their central thing into golf and it's big you know and this is probably quite a UK lens because I don't think the Americans feel it in the same way.

45:11Richard:They've always sort of seen it as slightly lesser than we do. I remember talking to Curtis Strange and said that, you know, when they go to schools to talk about, he has to explain what the Ryder Cup is, whereas Sam Torrance used to take the trophy and, you know, he would be mobbed at the gates. So there's a difference in terms of where it fits in the sort of culture. But when I was talking to Lara, it was interesting. I sort of hadn't really thought about that before. So you've got this moment and I am quite worried for the future of the Ryder Cutton because I think it could easily just lose relevance.

45:48Richard:And sometimes you think, well, that's OK. Sometimes sports events like the Lions Tour just have this just a bit of luck that puts them into the sort of culture at a particular time of mass television in a 40 year period between sort of 1970 and 2000 or whatever. and they are still they've been milking that ever since and we see a lot of the sports that we we talk about as premium sort of grew in that era and then have been you know are now responding to it and you know and actually some will fall away if you don't care about them you don't care but if you do care about and i do care about the riding cup that's what i worry about but who richard do

46:29David Cushnan:you think it's the your fear is the players will lose their love interest or is it or is it liver

46:37James Emmett:trying to pinch the format with the team with the team thing so it relies on the best players playing

46:43Richard:and if the best players aren't getting on to the team again so that's a question will they be allowed on they are but will that continue you've got the question of on both sides and i think the It used to be, it's always been that America has been absolutely dominant in golf. And part of the charm of the Ryder Cup was a sort of them against us aspect to it. And that's always been central to its sort of brand, particularly over here. Whereas now everyone plays in America and it feels much more artificial in terms of it's the antipathy between the two teams because they're all living on the same, you know, in the same state in Florida.

47:21Richard:So those real differences have been tapered away. And I think that adding Live into it and you've got people saying, right, okay, how do we just, what do we do about golf? Because Live exists because of the problems that it exposed. And I think last week's player announcement talked quite a lot about the problems of the Tour product. Because the Ryder Cup is the thing that pops for most people. If they're interested in golf, they will watch it. They won't watch the diet of the Tour. The tours are the problem. The majors are in robust health. They don't need any help. Everyone wants to play in them.

47:59Richard:The problem is the tour. And the more player picks you give the captain, the less relevance the tour has. And so the players who, you know, so someone like Matt Wallace didn't get onto the team because he knew he wasn't going to be one of the six players that Luke Donald played. Previous generations, he'd have walked on the team. So you've got a whole load of people. But the message to the tour players themselves is you ain't getting in. You know, there's only been one change from last time to this time. So it's almost like become a sort of unit. It becomes less an emblem of the European tour playing staff as it is just a sort of Harlem Globetrotters of European golf.

48:40And they're going to go and play at a venue against the Americans.

48:44Richard:And that feels like that's a shift. And I think that's not a good shift.

48:48David Cushnan:I think that's all very fair. How much a sort of casual average golf fan is thinking about all of that, though? And surely, I mean, all the numbers from the last few Ryder Cups suggest that when you get to it, the three days are, you know, a hugely well attended. and you know there's always wherever it is you know can be different types of atmosphere as I think we'll find in New York but yeah there's always a unique atmosphere um created you know the the broadcast numbers are I think are robust corporately I think it's still very strong and I think as somebody who likes golf doesn't love golf but I love the Ryder Cup because it's the perfect format as far as I can see for golf and it's you know it's teams it's you know you're you're completely invested it's actually why I think probably the most uh undervalued sports event maybe in the world might be the Solheim Cup actually because it's the same and it should be it should be sort of raised up to a Ryder Cup style level in terms of interest and excitement because I think format wise it just works I think in terms of you know the the medium long-term future of it whoever you are whether you're Liv whether you're PIF whether you're you know the uh you know Brian Rowlap at the PGA tour coming in whether you're Guy Kinnings I mean you'd have to be a very, very brave executive to decide that the Ryder Cup wasn't going to be a thing anymore.

50:32Richard:I don't think that would be, that's, that is not what would happen. One theory would be that the PGA Tour and Live Golf is where the antipathy is. And therefore, you know, a team event that replicates instead of the President's Cup, you have that every other year, you start to to see, okay, well, there is real beef there. But then again, that's predicated on Liv carrying on its current model. And there's question marks about that.

50:55James Emmett:I'm sort of with Dave on this in that I... Hopkinson or Kushner? I'm always with Dave Hopkinson. But in this instance, I'm with you, Dave Kushner. I'm not sure if Dave Hopkinson has a view on this, but I'll text him and find out. um I feel like your concern Richard is born out of being very much inside this sport and in the weeds of it so I'm sort of with Dave I like golf I love the Ryder Cup I and I feel like the athletes participating in the Ryder Cup they're analogous to me to an international football tournament right or they are Europe's top golfers as defined by whoever it is this year that's picking them I appreciate that you know the England football team that they're the best players in England but they're picked by the manager who is defined that they're the best players according to his system like I get I think it's pretty uh you know sports fans are fluent in the vagaries of how a an international team is assembled and it's all great content rich the discussion around should this bloke have been picked and why isn't that guy in it like these are these are evergreen content concepts and i don't feel like the integrity of the rider cup is jeopardised by the fact that we've got more controversy and discussion around where these blokes are coming from.

52:38David Cushnan:It might not change their life. We might all like to think and all the coverage suggests that winning the Ryder Cup might be life-changing and stuff like that. And maybe we're past that era, I guess, from a player's point of view, because from a mostly American point of view you know we hear the mutters well I'm not being paid it's it's nice to win it's always nice to win because they're competitive beasts but it's not gonna you know by Monday morning I'm not gonna be as devastated as perhaps people think I ought to be so that's you know it's then I suppose back to the storytelling how do the broadcasters how can you sort of tell the story the sport itself will I think surely always be highly competitive especially when it gets down to that sort of one-on-one um you know singles on the on the sunday but i certainly on the european side what you do have because of how the captaincy works and actually this also this world of sort of vice captains that now seems to assemble around the captain if you think about the next 20 30 years on the european side you've got you've got mcelroy you've got Westwood, you've got Garcia, you've got Justin Rose, who are all going to be captains and have their turn at one point, and I guess continue to be the, in a very different way to Seve, but that sort of inspiration for the younger players coming in.

54:03David Cushnan:So I would be much more concerned, because you mentioned the Ryder Cup as sort of analogous with the British and Irish Lions. I would be much more concerned about the long-term future of the Lions as something that... That's a subject of another podcast, surely. I just don't think it made a dent. Let's not get into that. I just don't think it made a dent at all this summer in the sort of mainstream world, honestly. And I still think the Ryder Cup does and the big golf events, and it's probably the four majors and the Ryder Cup. you know you look at the reaction when McElroy won the masters yeah it does cross over into you know transcends golf and I do still I'm still I get confused about whether bull or bear is the thing but I'm I'm uh I'm positive about the future for the Ryder Cup they're both quite aggressive

54:58Richard:are they balls um good I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad you've you've talked me out of it okay so I'm I'm happy i'm happy with that because and also so with the european tour because it is so fundamental to the economics of uh european tour that um who's gonna win well the money would be on america because it's at home one of the again one of the issues is that is winning away is proving more difficult it's a bit like you know test cricket it's it's become difficult to win away from home So that's a challenge for the product itself. And they've tinkered with the product a little bit. They've done well to keep it to three days.

55:37Everyone, you know, they remember Colin Montgomery going on.

55:40Richard:It should be four days and everyone plays, which is what the President's Cup does. But it does. It takes away from, you know, those little bits just take away from the actual product itself. But I'm pleased. I'm pleased. You've taught me around. I'm now I can have a better day now.

55:55David Cushnan:The thing in New York that could turn some people off is if, you know, the extent to which it becomes politicized, of course, because you can anticipate one VIP visitor.

56:06Richard:You certainly can. And yeah, Trump's use of it and his sort of relationship with golf is obviously very deep. I was working for, and I think it was KPMG, and they had a golf event, Golf Business Forum. And they had what they thought was a prestigious award, which was the Golf Business Person of the Year type thing. and I remember they said right we have to give it to Trump and this was 20 years ago 15 20 years ago and he couldn't be asked to come over and pick it up and that was when you know that's obviously pre-president so they were desperate to try and get him over but they just couldn't give him the award because he just you know he wouldn't be able to do it he wouldn't sit on the end of a telly to pick up the award but the golf industry does like Donald Trump I know that much for sure because he's embedded in it but we'll see okay i think we're there for for what was going to be a half an hour chat we've we've uh gone slightly further than that that'll do right perfect okay cheers mate thank you hang on hang on no whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa