UP518 Inside Edge: Harry Brook, George Pyne and the cricket agent business

0:00There's been a change in cricket in general since the early days of Joe Rube, and particularly with the current England regime, where the colour of the ball is slightly blurred now in terms of the way you play. And that suits Harry down to the ground. You know, he's come in at the right time into that centre. There's no doubt about that. That is Phil Weston, who is Harry Brook's agent, the England cricketer who is currently performing in the first test in Perth as we record this. Phil is one of the most powerful cricket agents in the game today. He is head of cricket at TGI Sport. His player roster includes not just Brook, but also Joffre Archer, Kieran Pollard, Rashid Khan, Sophie Devine, and many other international players across both white and red ball versions of the game.

0:45So he's in a good spot to talk about the health of the game, but also many of the questions that we bump into on Inside Edge, our Business of Cricket series, co-hosted here with Mike Jakeman. I'm Richard Gillis, and you're welcome to Unofficial Partner. This episode of the Unofficial Partner podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is the fame-making creative and sponsorship agency for brands in sport. Through exceptional creativity, deep sponsorship expertise, and flawless on-site delivery, They help brands, sponsors and rights holders unlock their full potential in sport. Most recently picking up a Leaders Sports Award for their work with Lidl at UEFA Euro 2024.

1:31Everything they do is driven by a culture of effectiveness because in sport performance matters. Not just on the pitch but in the work too. So whether you want to build buzz, connect with audiences or do something that actually cuts through, Sidley Sport knows how. visit sidleysport.com where brands become champions

2:00let's talk about tgi just to begin with just to land you in the conversation there's a question about what your day job is what do you do all day and then there's also a bit of context because i think with player agencies particularly they quite often are buying each other over a period of time and you sort of lose track brands appear and disappear and they're under one umbrella and then they're out on another one so and obviously people then jump to who are the players that are being represented or whatever but can you just give us a bit of a just to kick us off really just to weigh in to what the day job is but also just give us a bit on TGI my title is head of cricket management at TGI TGI are predominantly a tech business that the leading the cutting edge of tech in sport.

2:44We've grown very, very rapidly, predominantly by acquisition. So if you look at the sport of cricket, which is one of the most important sports for us globally, we would be involved with the big screen technology, boundary board technology for one of the few companies in the world that has the ability to create parallel ads as players are playing the virtual advertising. We're involved in content creation, selling, marketing and consulting for governing bodies and teams. Some of our key clients are Cricket Australia, ECB, ICC. We're involved in the 100, the MLC and everything in between, as well as being involved in lots of other sports all over the world and on the commercial side.

3:28But my background with TGI, we've changed names a couple of times by acquisition, but it has always been creative management and the management of players. And we like to have key influence in the ecosystem. And players are still the most important part as far as I'm concerned in that. So we're the largest in terms of numbers in the world. And we have 10 agents around the world and manage around about 330 people involved with cricket, be they male or female players, broadcasters, coaches. And at times, you know, we have some involvement with some of the backroom stuff as well. Right. So in a nutshell, what I do on a daily basis is I manage my own clients, but I'm also involved at a higher level with, you know, how we're shaping that business and where we're moving strategically.

4:22Yeah. We had George Pine on and he's obviously Brewin Sport. TGI is under that umbrella. Brewin and another primary company called Quadrant are the owners of TGI. Yeah. Okay. it's interesting sort of sector and again just stepping back from cricket slightly and and bruno involved in this but there's lots of activity around sort of business of management and agencies as you'll know and it's quite an interesting time because one of the running theories this goes across premier league football european football nba nfl players ipl cricketers that the money private equity is looking at agencies because the money is coming from the leagues, through the leagues, through the clubs and teams, and it's ending up with the players.

5:05And they are sort of gathering at the bottom almost to pick up what was the TV revenue money at the top. So sort of that in a nutshell is sort of their play. And you can see the logic behind it. And I'm just wondering whether that is how you view the marketplace. I think the marketplace, this is just a personal observation. I think maybe a little bit that is the case. I think it is what I would call a sieve. It does filter down and it is sieved out and the players do. They're much better rewarded. There are a huge amount of growing opportunities for players in world cricket now. However, I think it would be fair to say that in general, the investors are looking at businesses that they're looking to bring in management as part of a wider business.

5:53and I still think in cricket particularly it's definitely become a little bit more attractive as a profession to be a sport a cricket agent that certainly than when I began it's still not football it's still not the American sports it's still not golf tennis etc whether it will ever be like that for for a manager I'm not sure but it's certainly heading a little bit that way and in terms of just before I hand over to Mike I'm always interested in how many players sell tickets you know because there is a sort of marketplace for talent and i've just come off a conversation about golf you know and we're talking about live golf and the idea behind live golf and but actually when you drill down to something like european tour you've got a very very broad pyramid and you've got a few at the top who are famous and move the needle whether that's media rights or ticket sales and i'm guessing it's the sort of the same model in every sport and my head always goes to you know the harry brooks joffra archers of this world who are superstars but actually there's a sort of whole group below that and i'm wondering how that worked from your point of view how that you know the management of of people who aren't harry brooke because we'll talk about harry brooke in a minute because he's he's brilliant and we're about to you know go to the ashes and all of those things but again back to your day job how much time do you spend and what that sort of risk reward ratio is because you are a business and they all need to be generous it's a really good question it has changed a lot in the last the last 10 years 10 years plus and you're aware and I know you've done your research we we as a business we've grown by acquisition in terms of the the cricket management space and when I when I came into the business as was was to grow a traditional cricket management business from the bottom up in the UK to go alongside our head office and was in Melbourne at the time and it was it was to really to go alongside the business that we had there which was primarily the likes of your Peter Siddles, your Matthew Wades, your Aaron Finches who were right at the top of their game in the middle of their careers and the opportunities were seen as basically growing their base in their home countries growing the opportunities for Big Bash was just beginning the IPL was going well but it wasn't the animal that it is now and there weren't many other leagues in between So it was definitely seen as a more traditional model.

8:19And at the same time, it was a very small industry as agents. There weren't many people making a living out of being a cricket agent at the time. There were either the one-man bands who were doing something else on the side, or there were one or two businesses like ours that had the backing of a wider business to give yourself a chance to grow. But we saw that we've since in the last couple of years, we purchased a business called Insignia Sports International, which was at the forefront of developing and growing a book of T20, predominantly T20, but some excellent international cricketers as well.

8:59but a T20 base around the world. And we saw the joining of our two businesses as being a natural fit to give us the scope where we could essentially provide a really quality level of service to a range of cricketers. And I think, again, we'll come to how the landscape's changing for players, but we want to be able to navigate that landscape, be at the forefront of that landscape so that we're involved with some of the key stakeholders, be they boards, be they leagues, be they new leagues that haven't even been discovered yet, so that we can provide that service to our players whatever and whenever they need.

9:43And the other thing that we haven't mentioned there, which is key, is the female game. Yeah, yeah. And how that's changed and how female cricketers have become attractive to guys like us in where their game's going and where it is now. I've got some very specific questions about the women's game because I was at the T20 launch at Lorde, you know, the women's T20 launch. And it's a really interesting question about, again, you've got a World Cup here next year. And what happens in terms of the you get these moments and this is particularly true of women's sport generally is that you get, you know, the Lionesses and the Red Roses, the rugby and cricket and football.

10:24and you get the sort of peaks of the team national team and then you get a few superstars that are popping and then it's the middle bit that's really hard but i want to come back to that because well i sort of i think it's a really interesting bit of the equation mike i'm going to throw to you now sure and part of the reason why i wanted to have um you fell on is because i feel like you can talk to us about both sides of the the agenting business having been a professional player uh in the county circuit throughout the 1990s and 2000s and then became an agent after retiring can you talk to us a bit about what your interactions with agents how contracts worked the amount of the volume of work for your agent back when you were a player to kind of give us a a sense of where we're coming from yeah sure and the answer is they did the word many and certainly for players like myself, there was hardly a need for an agent.

11:19I actually did use an agent once, and that was purely to move teams and help negotiate and handle the move from one team to another. But outside of that, I certainly, there was no thought of using an agent for anything commercially or to help in what I call whole of life, and that's the type of thing that we do now. There also were very few, and they tended to be football agents who added a little bit of cricket, you know, a bit of stardust on the side. Stella was one that are a big football business, and they had some of the best players at the time. And, of course, then Neil Favreau came in and probably started the biggest, you know, the most well-known operation with the likes of, you know, the Vaughans, the Flintoffs and people like that.

12:06And he was part of Chubby Chandler's business, wasn't he? He was. Initially. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Which, again, was a golf business which had a cricket offshoot. Yeah. And probably one of the first standalone businesses was a company called Athletes One that was set up by David Lidgewood. And it had, Alex Stewart had an involvement in that at the time, along with Mike Smith. And they represented probably the highest volume of players in the late 90s and 2000s in the UK. That sort of then grew, and one or two of the agents that were involved then are still involved and are prominent agents now.

12:44So in our business, for example, they were bought by Essentially Group. And in our business now, there's a few that went off into Insignia. So Eddie Talshar founded Insignia. He was part of Athletes One originally. Tom Harwood and Simon Oteri all worked for Essentially at some point. Yeah. So when you just think back to your playing career, Yeah. Agents were primarily used if you had a contact from your county that you felt you could probably either were deserving a bit of a bigger bump or you thought there was more money that could be won there, like almost as a sort of arbitration almost. Yeah, it was primarily to move if you were moving close.

13:25It was also potentially to do that. But in terms of that, they did get involved more and more with agents that represented overseas players coming into the UK. So there was there was a market for that. And the guys in my career, most of the players would have used an agent to do that. But it wasn't it wasn't something that everyone had by any means. And actually, the only reason I got into it, it wasn't something that I would have thought of doing personally, but after finishing playing in 2007, I went and worked for our sports partner for National Australia Bank, which was National Australia Bank in Criadsdale.

14:03And I had a team of people that worked with me that were bankers, financial advisors, business bankers as well. And I worked quite a lot with management companies and agencies in different sports and saw how they operated and sort of had it in the back of my mind that I felt that, you know, there was definitely some improvement and some development and I'm a person who'd like to do things a little bit differently than I was seeing, both in rugby, football, cricket and some of the individual sports. But it's clear that it was evolving quickly, you know, it was a must-moving market. And it's interesting, you know, Mike's point about what the job was and where the money comes from.

14:45So in my head, again, it's contracts and it's bat deals or kit deal. Is that, you know, so someone like a Grey Nichols or a Duncan Fernley or a Gunnamore, are they part of, I'm just wondering, again, we're talking about below the sort of superstar level. Where does the money come from? I mean, the thing that's changed, and if you compare cricket to, if you look, football is football. And, you know, in football, there might be three people, three companies involved in one deal. It's a little bit of a murky world, although it is being regulated more. Crooked has always been, traditionally, there were one, possibly two contracts, employment contracts a year that a player might be involved in.

15:27If he was good enough, he might have something of note in the winter. But otherwise, it was his main domestic contract, whether that be a central contract or just a county contract. And the thing that's changed beyond measure is that now we would have a number of clients who would potentially have six certain contracts plus a year. So we're negotiating them at times. Some of them are auction-led or draft-led, but there's a lot of work that goes into the process leading up to a draft or leading up to an auction. And so we're heavily involved in the shape of those contracts, and then we're heavily involved in all the things that go around that as well.

16:07So yes, we would be paid primarily by getting a percentage of the commission on those deals. And you talked about there, Richard, the level just below international cricket. There is a level of player that may have played a little bit or may now be retired or may never have played international cricket. But if they're very good white ball players, they can still earn a very good living playing around the world. And they're the ones that wouldn't have a huge amount of commercial money coming in. You know, there would be commercial money, but it wouldn't be the type of money. We manage athletes who effectively, we only really get involved with your guys like Adam Peaty, Chris Hoy.

16:47Now he's obviously retired, but we would only really get involved in the commercial side in terms of making our money as commissions and not anything really to do with competing. And the difference in team sports is primarily our revenue is coming as a commission. on the playing contracts. Right. So you're not, you wouldn't get, it's like, again, the golf analogy is that, I remember IMG, you would say, we don't take from the prize money, that's the golfers, but then it's everything else is up grabs and they're taking a slice from that. Yeah, we would be taking a commission on playing contracts.

17:24So that would be the difference. Yeah. We wouldn't take it on prize money itself, but we would take it on a basic playing contract with, you know, most agents would charge a fee. but there is still the bigger the player there's still an expectation and where i think the reason that we're doing well and i think we're really well placed but the reason that there has been a lot of change and movement in in the sector is because you need a level of expertise and a network to be able to commercialize players and so you know you need the help of people who are doing that on a daily basis it certainly wasn't my strength when i came into this well it's quite interesting i'm trying to think through that that you know there's the player or who's got six or seven contracts because quite often the noise around you know podcasts like this or around generally around the media is the leagues are very disparate it's it needs to be consolidated it needs to be a simpler calendar but actually i can see value from a player's point of view of having six contracts frankly you know rather than two contracts because i can sort of from that point of view we always the conversation quite often goes towards player burnout and whatever welfare but actually there's more money in a marketplace a t20 circuit as we're seeing it now where they're popping up emerging leagues hundreds the american question all of these things are great for players aren't they they are and then they get and what they do is they if the player's good enough particularly if he's good enough obviously white ball cricket it gives that player choices and those choices appear at different stages of their careers.

18:59So undoubtedly that, you know, it is good for the player. The one thing I would say, though, is there are exceptions, but very few. Most players begin and, you know, they start to play the game. They move into the professional world generally with the ambition that they want to be the best international player they can. And that might be changing slightly, but in general, you know, particularly the English, the Australians, the Indian players particularly, but not exclusively by any means, they want to be the best cricketers they can be for their countries. And a byproduct of that tends to be that they then become bigger names and they become more attractive to the franchises.

19:43So if you haven't had that in your early career, it is a disadvantage even in the T20 world. There's no doubt about that. So it's not as straightforward as saying, let's have six contracts. you can still get six contracts now having never played international cricket, but they might be in lesser T20 competitions and they might not be for the level of remuneration that you think they may be. And equally, you know, there are pros and cons of T20 cricket. And if you're playing T20 franchise cricket exclusively, unless you're playing in the big tournaments alongside the best players, are you actually going to get better?

20:19Are you improving as a cricketer? Are you fulfilling everything that you can do? And, you know, that's for the player to decide. I'm no longer a player and I certainly wouldn't have been good enough to play in any T20 cricket. So I'm just trying to help facilitate that, really. Well, it feels to me like because, as we've just mentioned, cricket has become so much more complicated or a cricket career has become so much more complicated because there are so many more options to the current and future generations compared to, for example, yours. an agent where does an agent stop on a kind of strategic advisor role begin because if you're faced with you know as a 20 or 21 year old with a bunch of talent but not a lot of experience and experience i mean experience of the business uh let's say trying to decide which opportunities to take up if you're in the position to have lots of them it must be a really hard decision Absolutely Mike That is the role and that's where I personally don't like the word agent you're probably closer to a strategic advisor but I like the word manager we help to try and manage the process and provide a sounding board and advice when required and effectively always sense check the reason for doing something against what the player tells us he wants to achieve and the experience that we have as individuals and we actually have in our business across the different agents we can provide more holistic advice and we can work with with some of the stakeholders the counties the state teams that the international boards and make decisions on players short and long-term plans outside of playing international cricket to help them become better players but also you know we we are in the business of making money for them and we've got it we've got to balance that against burnout, against all the things that exist these days.

22:20The question of the value of a test career, a Red Bull career, because it's sort of, again, it's slightly counterintuitive, but coming into the ashes, the squad is announced. The people in that squad and the people at the top, the real first teamers, can you just sort of paint a picture of a career for them? It's the Harry Brook question. So as a, well, what are the questions that they've got? What do they worry about? They're all individuals, but I think a couple of points I'd probably make. First of all, I think there is becoming a danger that cricket is pulverising at international level. And there are, you know, India stands alone, but Australia and England sat below are the three powerhouses.

23:02India, as I say, are definitely the powerhouse. Below that, a young South African player, a young Kiwi really wants to play international test cricket because within their peers, it's seen as being the pinnacle. Obviously, there are exceptions, but I would say that's a fair generalisation. It is just when it becomes such a financial disadvantage that they can't do that anymore, that they really look elsewhere. And, you know, again, it partly depends on the type of player they are. But certainly the predominance of players that I personally manage are English or Australian, and they want to play test cricket for their country until it's no longer viable for that to happen.

23:49And you talked about Harry Brook, and Harry is my biggest client. He's been a client since he was at school, et cetera. And I've been involved with him as he's become the player and the person that he is now and holds the positions that he does. And right from the start, there's been a continuity in the thought process that Harry's had, which is he wants, it's England, He wants to play for England, not just play for England, but he wants to play for England and be the best that he can. And that's across test cricket and white ball cricket. So I can categorically state that everything that he's tried to do in that period has been to do that.

24:29It's credit, by the way, that he's done that. And one of the questions, again, we've had on the podcast previously is the there is a sort of fear that the Joe Root generation, Williamson, Coley, who prioritise test cricket, the next generation won't do that. And that will chip away at the value of test cricket, you know, broadly. And as three test cricket fans, we don't want that to happen. And all of those, you know, you can sort of see that trope. So what you're saying is giving me a boost because actually I want Harry Brook to say, I want a Joe Root type career. Yeah, I think people, I mean, this is just as a cricket fan, but I think he's a cross between Joe Root and Kevin Peterson.

25:09That's where I see he sits. And, you know, I also think there's been a change in cricket in general since the early days of Joe Root, and particularly with the current England regime, where the colour of the ball is slightly blurred now. in terms of the way you play. And that suits Harry down to the ground. You know, he's come in at the right time into that centre. There's no doubt about that. But going back to your point in general, I think there is, I'm not a doom and gloom merchant around Test cricket. And I'm particularly not around, you know, you look at the build-up to the Ashes at the moment and the hype talking to people in Australia at the moment.

25:46It's all everyone's talking about. And it's probably at as high a level as there has been coming into an Ashes series. So it's certainly not all doom and gloom, but there is this challenge that people with far, far more knowledge and experience and know-how than I've got are going to have to keep addressing, which is the polarization of the teams involved. and you know my personal view is that one of the most enlightened approaches to this is New Zealand cricket and how they're being very pragmatic and allowing guys to where possible play the franchise cricket and earn the money that they can't provide them with but still welcome them back and to playing in the best Kiwi team in World Cups or in big big international test series can I just drag you back something you mentioned a couple of minutes ago which is you mentioned like this specific England setup and the fact that you have tried with others to steer like Harry Brooks career towards them wherever possible.

26:46What that made me think of is the fact that some of the selections by like Stokes and McCollum duopoly have been quite unorthodox. You know, they're not just looking down the list of county averages and picking the players. so how much discussion is there like how do you get harry brooke into brendan mcclellan's mind i don't think i have to do anything to do that to be honest he's a client is he brendan mcclellan he is a tgi client yeah he's not my client and those those those conversations don't take place like that but you know the reality is you don't have to do anything with harry i'm not claiming any credit whatsoever for how he plays on the field.

27:28And, you know, I'm in awe of the talent that he has. But I think what I always try and do is, even with a player as good as that, his journey hasn't been a smooth one. And you probably recall, I think, probably I think he might have even been 21 and his career average in county cricket was probably below 30 at one point. And he saw an opening alongside another client of mine, Andrew Gale, who was coach of Yorkshire at the time. He saw an opening potentially into the England team as an opening batter. And if you remember, he had a period opening the batting in Red Bull cricket for Yorkshire and it didn't work.

28:09The idea was good. The intent was all, you know, has been consistent. He wanted to play international cricket. He saw it as an opportunity. but he was clever enough for me, he was giving good enough advice from people around him to pivot on that and just play the game and bat where he should bat, play how he should play and the rest is history but it's very much the role that I perform in that is just to be a sounding board in the background and to sense check the decisions that are being made but you've got to be really careful as an agent that you're not overstepping the mark. And I've tried to tread that line.

28:54And probably it makes it harder that you were a player, even though I wasn't at that level. You know, you may have your opinions, but you've generally got to keep those opinions to yourself unless you're asked for them. I suppose the risk is, it's the player like, I'm trying to think of an example. So someone like Keaton Jennings, he's supposed to be an opening test player. That's what the career trajectory should be. But then he's not made it into the, you know, he's not in the team. And you're now, you're sort of stuck in the middle there. You're not a classic T20 player, but you're also not in the small group of players who are going to make money from Red Bull.

29:35Well, yes and no. So Keegan Jennings is a client, as is Alex Lee, so you could probably class in the same way. and the conversations that you have with someone like Keaton are different to you'd have with a guy like, you know, the opposite of that might be someone like Tom Kohler-Caddenmore of mine. And, you know, in general, you can't change enormously the player that you are and you either fit with how that regime sees test cricket or you don't. But there are little things that you can do to improve yourself and to acknowledge that the game is changing. So Keaton, for example, is a highly underrated white ball player.

30:14And he has consciously tried to develop that side of his game. And he's had a little bit of success with that. And we've had a little bit of success with that. You know, he's played in the 100 now for the last couple of years. He's played as an overseas player in Big Bash. And, you know, he's still got ambition to do more of that. But equally, we're seeing a little bit now in the game where there's still a niche for a player like that at county level. and that the rewards are growing slightly at county level. For top-quality overseas or domestic top-order batters are highly sought after in county cricket, and they can fetch a financial premium that they probably didn't in the past.

30:57Equally, bowlers are like hen's teeth, and any quality domestic bowler will be well-rewarded at county level, whether he goes one step further and plays in the 100 or not. Some of the best bowlers that I have as clients in domestic cricket have amazing records in county cricket, but are unlikely in the current regime to play international cricket. So I like the likes of a Ben Code or a Ryan Higgins that constantly do really well at county level, but don't maybe have the pace that the current regime are looking for. We need to work the 100 and the player auction process. not necessarily about the 100, but the IPL or wherever we want to make it.

31:41But that has become just such a feature of the theatre around it. And I remember, you know, the IPL, and it was interesting to set up with the IPL. People forget the role of, I think it was, is it Bart Thompson? Who was it essentially at the time? I can't remember. New Zealand, the... Campbell, yeah. Bart Campbell. And, you know, in terms of the player agency role within, you know, the whole process. Can you just sort of take us through that? What is it like, the auction, and how do you approach it? And what's your sort of just general view of it as a thing that's now in cricket? Well, I think people underestimate how much work goes in pre-auction from everyone.