UP535 Inside Edge - T20's Product-Market fit is 'the biggest delta in global sport'

28:34Mike Jakeman:I think that it's like what the ICC have done with ICC TV, and I don't know if that was yours, Finn, but that was absolute game changer. So, again, when I was at ICC, I was in the development department generally. Yes, I was running events, but we were looking at how do we grow this game into all the other 96 other at the time associates. And the issue was always you can't find it. It's inaccessible. So in order for cricket to grow, it has to be able to be found easily, non-pirated, and to come through the truth source, which is ICC. So what the ICC have done in democratising that to these countries can only be beneficial for the sport of cricket in the long term.

29:22Mike Jakeman:I think Finn's point around getting that from it's an overnight success is absolutely true, and the cracks are starting to show on that from a performance perspective, which we discussed before, then you go to the digital layer, then it's kind of like a what's next, right? And the what's next is what I've been thinking about and talking to many associates about as well, is around infrastructure and your youth and schools programs. Because it's all well and good to have the aspirational nature of being able to watch T20 World Cups and democratising that from the ICC. but unless there are places to play and a cricket ground to see and feel and touch and a system underneath that where the youth is easily accessible and and having exposure to cricket there's always going to be that feeling of oh yeah we'll just move to another sport that's an interesting thing that comes along every couple of years now that's not an easy one to solve and a lot of sports haven't solved that to this day but cricket has this really incredible opportunity again to another point that Finn made around the kind of Asian diaspora being almost everywhere, right?

30:33Mike Jakeman:And they are cricket people through and through. And I will touch upon USA soon. They will have their families and children watching cricket because that is part of their cultural DNA. So we have as a sport, for me, it's still a sleeping giant in many ways, because so many people love it. It's everywhere all around the world. It's got democratised access to the best cricket in the world, including franchise leagues and World Cups. We now need to kind of take that to the next level and give young people and older people with infrastructure and youth programs in order to kind of make this thing blow up.

31:11Mike Jakeman:And I know that's happening and it's going to take a long time, but that's the next thing for me. All the groundwork's been laid by the ICC over the years.

31:19Finn Bradshaw:I think your question asked about what does it mean from a product point of view for someone like the ICC? it's something we've been wrestling with quite a bit what what is the what is our purpose of it for fans but if you look at it in hard commercials pretty much every sport makes a disproportionate amount of its revenue in its home market yeah there's very the premier league might be starting to shift that a little bit but generally IPL NFL whatever it's 95 or whatever it is in the home market yeah and so we have all these boards when i was at cricket australia would be constantly going look at all these fans we've got a new one up fan look at all these people in india who follow our content how can we commercialize them and of course we weren't really in a place to do that you do the odd deal with the indian tire company or something like that but it was pretty limited but there is an opportunity i think there if you were to look at that centrally because that long tail is long and also from a fan segmentation point of view it's not that complicated because because the fans an Indian fan in the USA is not very different from an Indian fan in the UK or in India they might have more money but and so when you're creating products for them you don't have to be hyper personalized actually and I think the more I think about it like the greatest signal we got one of the great signals we got as a sport was how popular India v Pakistan was in New York and we haven't really kind of exploited that but we've still got this great run into the Olympics and things like that so I think if we've got a few interesting projects coming down the line that I think will really start to harness that benefit of sort of collaboration amongst members because we're kind most of us most of the members in the ICC are actually all kind of the same business of trying to reach those fans but if you rather than everyone investing and trying to do it separately if you can do it we've got that long tail is really interesting but it's not that complicated to reach I suppose whereas maybe some other sports would be a bit more complicated so I'm really bullish on our ability to create products and and engage that audience because of those things.

33:39Edward Fitzgibbon:One of the stories that's emerged over the last five to ten years as franchise cricket has grown up, which is certainly very prevalent in England and Australia, less so in other countries, I think, is we've got too many franchise leagues. They're cluttering up the calendar. It's very difficult to follow who's playing where. None of the teams have a particularly strong identity. we don't know which players are playing there from one year to the next it's just a carousel and can't we all just put them back in whites and get on with it properly but if we take it a slightly different point of view and say well hold on a minute what we're discovering through this tournament is that there's actually a really deep player a talent pool of players who need opportunities to play at the highest level possible and actually what these franchise leagues are doing is giving more opportunities to those guys.

34:36Edward Fitzgibbon:Now, if this is, Eddie, you can point out if this narrative is wrong, and actually I don't know how much access, let's say, players on the Nepalese national team have to the Caribbean Premier League, for example. But then if we assume that that narrative is true, then, and we then move on to kind of think of it from a fan point of view, can you explain Finn a bit about the relationship between the ICC and the operators of the Caribbean Premier League and the Pakistan Super League and the Nepalese Premier League because if you want to be if you're a fan of Lokesh Bam as of last week and you want to follow him around the world and see him take advantage of what I hope will be some quite nice contracts coming his way over the year in all these different places.

35:30Edward Fitzgibbon:How do you do it as a fan? And like, is this a job for the ICC to be like, right, guys, you know, like, this is cricket's diplomacy problem, isn't it? How do we bring all these things together into something that means that if you're a new fan, how do you do it?

35:44Finn Bradshaw:Yeah, that's a great challenge. The boring answer to the ICC's relationship with those leagues is we sort of give us regulatory stamp of approval to the leagues, But the league's relationship is with the member, whoever, whatever that country they're in. Beyond that, we don't have a contractual relationship with them. And I would say like the best of those leagues have been such a positive for the sport. All the innovation in tactically, skill-wise and everything that's come into cricket has pretty much come out of the IPL. And then sort of bedded down in those other leagues. And I think you're seeing that accelerate, especially now as the IPL has more teams in more leagues.

36:23Finn Bradshaw:unfortunately there's some leagues that behave really badly they have people they have owners who only have selfish interests at heart or and don't pay players and things like that and that that is a net negative for the sport and so I think it's it's what it is one of those very sort of complicated relationships but I would say someone who sits thinking about fans all the time fans are unambiguous in telling us that t20 cricket is their favorite form of cricket outside of maybe england and australia where test cricket has still got a dominant position and but they're also pretty unambiguous in telling you that that the the competition needs to have meaning and we talk about meaning in context always so must be a sports business podcast if you use those words but and so you purpose that's right but that doesn't that can be international events like icc events are really good for that whether it's qualifiers like our engagement on qualifiers is great because you win it and you get to go to world cup but it's also the same with t20 tournaments i think south africa's done a great job there of clearly creating some connection and meaning with the community there and so they've great crowds and it's just a nice flywheel to use another sports business term to really get a to get a product going there you know if you if you started from scratch i don't think it'd be a secret to say you'd probably organize our calendar and everything and be better i think where hopefully we'd sort of starting to get to as you get more aligned incentives across the board and then hopefully the outcomes flow from that.

38:11Finn Bradshaw:Bit of a politician's answer to that one, but I don't have a particularly, unfortunately, like magic wand for that. Eddie, what do you think?

38:19Edward Fitzgibbon:If you could crack some heads, Eddie, what would you say in this place about that?

38:23Mike Jakeman:I think the World Cricket Association did a really good report last year on identifying blocks in the calendar to potentially play and give more space and meaning and context to cricket. Again, like the horse has bolted on many of these leagues and many of these leagues in the top four members in particular are doing very, very well commercially. So you can't put the genie back in the bottle there. When it comes to the kind of associate players, so these guys from Nepal and USA, or how do we pronounce his name, is sensation. And where does he go next? How do you follow him? And in an athlete-led economy that we're going into now where the younger generation are following athletes rather than teams themselves.

39:08Mike Jakeman:I think we've got a really interesting opportunity here to give more space to these players. How do we do that? I think it does start with these leagues being played in individual countries. So ETPL is coming up, which I think is a great initiative. The three best associates in Europe having franchise cricket where they can have their guys, top Irish, Dutch and Scottish guys, playing meaningful cricket as in meaning that they're actually playing for a trophy with international cricketers and other cricketers coming through. The Nepal Premier League was absolutely chock-a-block every single game.

39:48Mike Jakeman:They had Faf Duplassie there and other big-name stars. Major League Cricket's done a great job and they've integrated many of their... Many of the USA national team players have played there and played really well. So getting that exposure at the highest level back to the performance side from before has certainly to do with that. Now, isn't a poor Premier League or a – and we'll leave MLC aside. Isn't a poor Premier League and ELT, ETPL going to rival a Big Bash or 100 or PSL will leave IPL alone? Probably not, but it doesn't need to. It needs to provide ability for these guys who play irregularly on an international level to play regularly for franchises.

40:30Mike Jakeman:They need to be able to tell stories. And I think the opportunity for these leagues is actually around doing more narrative-driven storytelling things. So if I was, and I was speaking to Paris about this, lean more into your players. They've got huge social followings. They perform really well on T20. do some pre-event documentary series, drive survive type thing, get them more in front of the camera more often and get more people following. So that benefits the player obviously, but also Nepal as well. So I think for these kind of second tier, should we call them second tier, third tier leads, notwithstanding the issue around the calendar, they have to have a space to be able to play for performance, but also for commercial opportunities for those associates because they will need extra funding on top of what ICC gives them in order to continue to succeed.

41:19Mike Jakeman:And then it gives those players themselves the opportunity to create their own narratives, their own brand, which helps them as well. So, yeah, that kind of made sense. But I think there is an area where these kind of second-tier leagues, as we say, associate players, get more exposure through their national team leagues and through that relationships with other associate leagues that come up.

41:45Richard:I want to talk about America because it sort of encapsulates a lot of the themes that we've talked about. And there's a good quote, Eddie, you wrote, the opportunity versus reality gap is larger than anywhere else in global sport. So the difference between, you know, reality and opportunity. So let's explore that because it's an interesting idea. We had Peter Hutton on, who was the head of sport at Facebook Meta for an interesting period of time. He's also a cricket guy. You both know him. He was, you know, he's a TV rights guy.

42:13Finn Bradshaw:He was chair of the T20 World Cup in the USA.

42:16Richard:Exactly. And his line, because he's seen the Facebook data, that's why he's bullish on cricket in America, because it looks from, you know, one of the greatest sort of data sets in the world that it's pointing towards cricket in America and is, you know, is a thumbs up. So just starting from that premise, Eddie, just let's explore this a moment. And what are, we'll get to an opportunity threat type framing of it. and we've had the World Cup, as you say, 24, and then we've got the Olympic moment. So, you know, that's in the ether as well. But just give me a sort of two-penathon cricket in the States as you see it.

42:56Mike Jakeman:Yeah, I mean, I've been rolling that line out for at least the last kind of five years with...

43:04Richard:Don't knock rolling lines out, by the way. Me and Michael are very, very healthy living on that sort of thing.

43:10Mike Jakeman:Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I've been rolling that one out for probably since, really since 2015 when I did the Cricket All-Stars event. And why, at a macro level, before I go into some of the reasons why, and Finn can tell us the data on it, but at the macro level, it's the world's second biggest sport in the world's biggest sports market with a diaspora that is hopefully heavily over-indexed on household income, that being that Indian, Pakistani, Bangladesh, Sri Lankan. So those kind of two or three data points at a macro level should be enough for cricket fans, investors, those interested in kind of global sport economics to at least say, okay, there's something there there.

43:55Mike Jakeman:Now, we will get into challenges and issues and all the rest of the time. But from a macro level, that's where I stand. And what I, why, now I back that up. In 2015, I did the Cricket All-Stars event with these legends of the game. We had 32 ,000 in Citi Field in New York. We had 24 ,000 in Houston. We had 30 ,000 in Dodger Stadium. And these were all fans of cricket that came to a baseball stadium. And these baseball teams, who I'm now friends with quite a lot of them, said we'd never seen – the Mets, I had a chat with them even a couple of weeks, and they said we had the World Series a week before the Cricket All-Stars in 2015.

44:36Mike Jakeman:And that was by far a better crowd than the World Series. If there's anything cricket-related, then we want to hear about it. And this was kind of 10, 11 years later. So fast forward that with the World Cup and all the rest that have happened, there's serious interest from American sports business people, American sports investors in the game of cricket in the US. They've also looked at, they're also looking at or have looked at IPL teams. And there's a lot of reports out there of another one, but there's been a lot of investment over that over the last year of time. So the American sports or the American cricket opportunity is like only just beginning.

45:14Mike Jakeman:And Major League Cricket have done a really good job. But at the end of the day, Major League Cricket are also, they're only on four to six weeks of the year, right? So again, the challenge is exposure. It's got to be in order to be a success. America's got to be the best. Americans won't do second best. So that's why I performed to the US national team and Donald Trump tweeting about USA national team, we start to really get some momentum. It's not going to happen overnight, but the floodgates are about to open, I think.

45:44Finn Bradshaw:Yeah, I want to give you a really fascinating data point, which I'm not sure exactly what it tells you, but I've been having a look into the prediction markets products in the US, Polymarket and Kelsey. And I think that's all the stat, like Kelsey really over-indexes in terms of sport. a really high percentage of the number of contracts offered there is sport. Yesterday, the number one trending contract when I looked, mainly I think it was early morning East Coast time, about 6am East Coast time, number one trending market over there was the Pakistan versus Namibia match. Like ahead of who's Trump going to choose his Fed chair, ahead of any NBA, ahead of anything.

46:27Finn Bradshaw:And that might not mean anything, But it says to me, like, we just keep getting these signals that there's this really committed cricket fan base in the US. And the cricket ecosystem as a whole, outside a few exceptions, like the All-Star thing or the World Cup, just refuses to give them a product. Like, we just, we, because, yeah, you can't just serve up anything. Because, like, what's the stat that I read? Like, in 24, the household income by nationality in the US. The average one for an Indian household is something like the American Indian, you know, Indian Americans is like a hundred thousand.

47:07The next of any other nationality was 80 ,000.

47:10Finn Bradshaw:Like they're just, they're a very wealthy, powerful group over there. And I think one of the things I worry about is what are their kids and their kids' kids interested in? Is that fan base going to sort of fade out with that group? And yeah, it is such a great opportunity there, But we need to think really hard about what products we're creating for that market.

47:34Edward Fitzgibbon:Does American geography matter to this? Just trying to build any sense of momentum for something new in a country the size of a continent. I mean, is that a very old fashioned way of thinking about it? You don't need that many people in a stadium. but it would be quite nice if you were a cricket fan to meet another cricket fan you know in real life if you're walking down the street you know i mean i i'm just hypothesizing here like and is that more difficult compared to a country with a bigger population

48:09Finn Bradshaw:density like nepal i think the bigger problem is our grounds like god to give to be rugby where you can just play in rectangular stadiums because sport in its perfect instance is something that you play you watch you you talk about all of that and like cricket is a really annoying size ground it's big pitches even with hybrid pitches and things like that is pretty specific you need specific technology like it is a super annoying sport to play beyond just playing gully or street cricket i mean one of its great powers is you can play with two people anywhere with the bat and a ball like it it is a better experience doing that than it is to play soccer with two people um and so i'd say i think that is probably more i think inhibiting at the moment and than it but definitely but i mean the time zone doesn't help in that the best cricket in the world is played at a horrible time i think it almost the worst possible time zone for that country so white wave american sports not really cracked in india i think a large part of that's time zone the vice versa so yeah i think if i could wave a magic wand it would be that you that ai invents cricket grounds that you can drop from a helicopter yeah so from from my perspective

49:32Mike Jakeman:mike and it kindly answers your question a little bit is that there are big hot spots of cricket in the US. Like Texas is massive. Like Houston, Dallas, huge. Bay Area and LA are both huge. Northeast, like particularly around like New York, Brooklyn, and then out to New Jersey. So there's these really big, and I'm sure there's some data, I've certainly got some data from my work over the years on these big kind of hot spots where they are, where they can bump into fans of cricket and talk about cricket. and there's 200 ,000 over 200 ,000 registered cricketers all over the US and they're mainly consolidated in those kind of key market areas, including kind of Chicago.

50:12Mike Jakeman:And we haven't really talked about it and we should touch upon Canada as well, which is just nearly as big as an opportunity as well due to the expat population. But then you run into issues around infrastructure in the US and Finn's absolutely right. And when I was over in the US, we were looking to get, I was going to get a number of cricket events up and running and I've flown up and down the US and checked out thousands of places, maybe thousands, but a lot of places to see if we could fit a cricket ground into this facility in a university or in this park or whatever. And generally, the Americans are just like, you're trying to do what?

50:49No, I don't think so.

50:51Mike Jakeman:I think we've kind of got over that a little bit. And what they did at Grand Prairie in converting a minor league baseball stadium to the cricket ground there has been a really great success. That's a really great facility. obviously open coliseum hosted the mlc here and as of as of now like i'm starting to lose count almost of the amount of cricket facilities that are being developed by generally private wealthy individuals in these kind of hot spots you look at atlanta chicago new jersey was just announced so but that's kind of private money getting put into cricket facilities now what what standard are they going to be?

51:32Mike Jakeman:And then the second part would be, for me, for these guys building it would be, how are you going to commercialise these venues? Because the reality is you might get an MLC team maybe in time. You might bring another World Cup back to the US. So how many days are you actually going to monetise these venues? And that's something that I don't know whether they consider or not. so in some so so for me infrastructure is almost number one and i've said quite a lot and and and thinking about what does infrastructure cricket infrastructure look like in the u.s and i think it does need to be multi-sport i don't think cricket's big enough now to command its own county cricket grounds or whatever that can get through every weekend tens of thousands of people drink a lot of beer and that's where you make your money there has to be consideration around the business side of the infrastructure in order to make these things go and again once you get infrastructure you start getting people talking about it it's in people's faces and all the things i spoke about before so for me infrastructure is one of the main kind of really breaking the u.s screen to cricket when you like just talking about this infrastructure

52:43Finn Bradshaw:thing like i think people still talk to me about making cricket more accessible arcane rules and all this and my pushback always to that is one to richard's point like t20 has just been a phenomenal growth driver and any sport would kind of give to have a product like that but then some people go well it's still three three and a half hours we should do t10 i think the accessibility thing to me more is is there a format you can play in a soccer ground or something like that and like our development team has got a thing called creole cricket where you can be played on like a tennis court and the idea is to codify a version that's for for countries where cricket grounds are going to be built in the next five years and you know when i sort of see people trying to do things that are sort of versions of other sports to make them more accessible i do wonder if there's an opportunity there for cricket at least as again as a short-term sort of more short to medium-term play to use existing facilities because in some of those markets, that demand is there.

53:50Finn Bradshaw:And if we wait until there's a really nice cricket stadium built, is it going to be too late? Do we need to work out ways? It's interesting, isn't it?

53:57Richard:The theme of quite a lot of the conversations has been the signals, to use your point, Finn, that the market is selling and the product response from whoever it is, the franchise is, from the governing bodies and private people. and Mike said at the beginning this makes him very happy I like the idea of Mike happy that's pleased me but there's a sort of I'm enthused by it but also there's a sense of there's a confidence that actually people will work out the solution. We put a lot of faith in governing bodies almost like governments to solve all the problems and actually it feels like the audience for cricket is ahead of the governing bodies.

54:38Richard:They're trying to find the products They're either digitally, they'll play cricket in the street if they want to, all of that stuff. And actually, it's not the governing bodies and the franchise owners and the business people who are going to lead an audience in somewhere. It's the other way around. And I think in other sports, again, would love that situation. You know, on a podcast like this, I'm bombarded with people who are saying I'm going to reimagine rugby league or whatever it is. loads of different sports are trying to sort of conjure up things to try and find an imagined audience that isn't the case in cricket the cricket has the audience and it's responding to it and it's it will get there or not but it's a sort of better problem the data really backs

55:19Finn Bradshaw:that up like gemba does our fan data and analysis and they do this ongoing survey of sports fans across the world and they say what is your what are your top five sports and then sort of get you to rank them and i think it's like more than 50 percent of people who put cricket in their top five put cricket as their number one and the only sport that's higher than that is is soccer you know and there's other sports sort of struggle to get to the 20 percent of people doing that you might say you're an nba fan but it's not your number one same with f1 and so on and so like and it gels with me anecdotally and eddie you've been around the world when you meet people are kind of all in on cricket or they're not there's not that many sort of casual cricket fans and so yes there's a hurdle but once people have cleared that hurdle my god they're passionate about it um and so they'll yeah they will create their own league they'll play on the street they'll find it wherever they can and we've just got to serve them better cricket cricket is a drug yeah

56:20Richard:one of the good ones yeah i mean get them hooked there's two elements here that i'll think again

56:26Mike Jakeman:and I've been working cricket in the US for the last 10 years. There's two elements to it. Number one is the current cricket fan, the big cricket fan has been described in the US, is around 6 to 8 million real cricket fans. Sometimes it goes up to 20, but let's kind of use 6 to 8 as the real cricket fan. Now that, and these very high household income individuals. So that's actually, they're extremely strong numbers when you compare that to Australia for population 27. It's probably got 12 million cricket fans in Australia or even the UK or anyone else. And their crickets are number one and they're high household income.

57:01Mike Jakeman:So there's an argument to make that crickets arguably already kind of made it in the US and it just needs to kind of continue catering for that six to eight million high household income fan and bring in more World Cups and expand the MLC and bring RPL teams over and things like that. But there's also, this is the US and this is the US sports market. And there's two elements to that. Again, having lived there before. Americans love business opportunity. And again, I think the delta between reality and opportunity in the world's second biggest sports market, the swing certainly biggest sport in the world's biggest sports market, and they're starting to sniff around and some of them get their toes in.

57:41Mike Jakeman:So there's that. And then there's the how do we bring other sports people within and business people and sports in college and youth sports and things like that, how do we get them involved in cricket and is it this hybrid version, is this gully cricket version? How do we at least get them exposed? And if you can skim off the top 5 % of those sports-interested fans to become cricket fans and start to monetise and commercialise them in the world's biggest sports market, then momentum builds. All of a sudden, you're looking 20 years in the future and cricket's seriously on the map. MLS or soccer is a pretty good analogy, right?

58:22Mike Jakeman:and it's taken 30 odd years to get where they are now until hosting many World Cups, the women's national team falling really well. Cricket's only really done it over the last, let's say, two, three years. So I think a little bit of patience on the, let's call them the non-cricket number one fans, but then you've got a really interesting business on the number one fan of cricket. It's already there. So I think there's kind of two tracks there.

58:49Richard:Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, Mike, are you still happy? You started happy.

58:53Edward Fitzgibbon:Yeah, I do feel like the tendency is to soul search a bit. There was a period in the middle of this where I was starting to get a bit less. Like, oh, we created more problems here.

59:04Richard:We should have one of those things like elections that gauges your happiness over time.

59:09Edward Fitzgibbon:Indeed. No, but I love this idea, well, maybe cricket's already made it in America. I mean, what are we judging this on? you know obviously there's a huge point about how big is it in the culture but yeah we're talking about a you know as i said a country the size of a continent and it doesn't need saturation across the entire country to to make a claim to being america to be a cricket country i think i think that's i think that's really important uh you know the way that india is for example like it doesn't it doesn't need that to say that it has a presence and it's yeah you know i was i'm still slightly astonished at how quickly MLC has established itself from a since its first edition and how quickly it's been able to get some of the world's biggest names into into the league yeah that's because I think you know would you like to have five weeks in America well yeah I would actually you know it's an attractive place to go and you know you're going to have a good time but nonetheless it's you know it's hugely significant to me that Steve Smith was in mlc so quickly you know that's yeah yeah being the Australian team so quickly I always think

1:00:17Richard:about the global fan question and it's like when the NFL comes to London it's a version you know and I always wonder what football looks like in America I'm I'm interested in what cricket looks like when it reaches America from the American side and you know we make a lot of people go to shorthands about cultural relevance and but it's a it's a sort of cartoon version of real life in a way as a marketing sort of version and actually when the nfl quite often when you talk to the nfl you know when when they come over the nba have their games over it used to be an exotic there was room for an exotic product a niche product the nfl can't be niche it's got to come through the front door it's america running down region street or whatever whereas i think actually what we're talking about is a city you know in america is a series of niches every country is and it's trying to sort of weave those in and it's perfectly doable but it's it doesn't fit the grand plan if the grand scheme is a powerpoint deck with global domination of cricket or of football or whatever you know good luck with that but people aren't like that and so i think you know i'm really encouraged by the just the nuance of the question and the debate because actually it's not neat it doesn't fit into a marketing channel model in that way as much as everyone would want it to and i'm sort of encouraged by that you know i think the more i think about it the more there is two types of sport one is chasing trying to conjure a fan and the other is trying to service an existing fan you know and i think cricket's in the latter and is in a better space well listen we've gone for ages i'm really grateful because i know that it's a really busy time finn is in the middle of a major global tournament i can see the sort of work that i'm interested in the bradshaw map of the world we might come might revisit that at some point yeah sounds like a valuable piece of uh you know digital real estate but finn thanks very much

1:02:04Finn Bradshaw:your time and eddie likewise pleasure these gentlemen pleasure thank you guys thanks guys

1:02:09Edward Fitzgibbon:i really enjoyed that