UP536 Other People's Money: Bex Smith's thesis for women's football multi club ownership

20:50Matt Rogan:Yeah, I'll talk about the player trading model first with Ted. Ted is like one of the most fascinating humans I've ever met, and I wish I had the opportunity to have him on my team when I was playing because that kind of data, I was like an absolute data geek. I sat next to a guy that was coding on all the videos. I would like give him homework of like, can you please code every time the back line is turned? because I want to see how, you know, where the, so I was that, I was that kid. So I love, I love my conversations with him. But what we've been seeing is, I think we took a bit of a punt on player trading because when I first came up with the concept and started working through it, there was still not a lot of transfers that had happened that were big enough to really go, okay, this is like a real thing and we should invest a lot of money in it.

21:41Matt Rogan:And I think just in the last year, it's gone absolutely gangbusters berserko. We're seeing million dollar trades. We're seeing million pound trades of players that even a lot of people in the game don't even know the names of these players. I mean, we do because we were in the game, but it's not like, oh yeah, she's been around forever and has a following of what it's just like, wow, that came out of nowhere. So there's a lot, there are a lot of, there's a lot of money now in player trading. And there's like a certain group of clubs that can afford to be paying for players like that. So yes, it is, it wasn't really heavily factored into our model in the beginning, and it's still not really heavily factored in.

22:27Matt Rogan:So again, it's like that cherry on top. So the, the media rights that we talked about, the player trading, because there are still a lot of question marks, but what is a hundred percent certain is that it is going up and it is going up at a much faster pace than I expected. And I expected, I probably expected stronger growth than most people because I'm in the market and I see the indications of where the market is going. And I hear the rumblings and I've talked to different people that a lot of people maybe aren't privy to. so I know that the industry is growing quickly but I I am like genuinely blown away with how like we've got offers on some of our Montpellier players who are young like very our average age is 21 years old on our squad it's one of the youngest squads in in the French league and that's due to the fact that when we bought the club like they had already dumped a lot of their players to save costs and and we're built we're like in a full rebuild like we have probably the best French player, young player, period.

23:26Matt Rogan:And we've already had offers for her. We think there's a, like what she's going to be worth even this summer is like, I don't even believe it when, you know, and Ted is saying, you know, but this is, these are the conversations I'm having. I'm not, this is not like me saying, I think it's going to be, he's like, these are real active conversations. So the feedback that we're getting. And so to understand how to find talent and how to develop talent, I think that's a massive key because I think it's easier to find good talent. What's really hard is to take that talent and then develop it where they feel comfortable off the pitch, that they feel that they're in an environment where they can take risks, that their psychological safety, that they feel like they're being valued, but also challenged, that they get along with their coach, that they get along with their teammates, that they feel like they're in a place that they enjoy, that there's like purpose to their life outside of football like these are all things that nobody talks about because no one really thinks about players as human beings they all talked about as assets especially in men's football so just

24:24Bex Smith:following that through then it's really interesting so there is a market emerging for selling the players and then there is a as you say you've got the player id question sourcing players and this goes again you know across france and the swedish league at what point so there's the question i guess is building the club and without becoming a selling club and one of the accusations of the swedish league more generally is that it's a selling league and that the talent it's incredible talent flow but it get it goes elsewhere to the wsl nwsl germany and how you balance those things and whether they're you know that's the sort of question because when you look at the swedish so rosengard there's a there's a volatility there in terms of you know their performance and i was wondering whether that's to do with it's delicate it's a delicate player ecosystem you sell a couple of really key players performance is hit for a season you get you know so there's a sort of is that built into the into the mechanism yeah i mean i think we're trying to meet the market

25:33Matt Rogan:where the market is as well so when i was playing in sweden this is going to sound like a knobby thing to say but it was the best league in the world because we had marked we had the best players that were playing there and then as the game has developed it then became germany and now it's really kind of like a battle between england and in the u.s so it is kind of what it is we're not trying to change sweden to make it the best league in the world by buying a club there what we are doing is looking at where what is the best opportunity in sweden and one of the reasons why we bought in sweden which no other people can do because we've changed it from an association to an actual business.

26:07Matt Rogan:So we're the only club that is fully just female, a female women's club business, is that it is a great landing place for players. So you don't have the point system that you have to have, that you have to satisfy in England, for example. If I'm coming from Africa or, you know, South America or Oceania, I can go straight into Sweden. It's a really nice place to land. And I know that because I landed in Germany and it was really hard. and they only spoke German and they have a very specific way of playing that is very rules-based and if you don't understand it because you don't speak the language it's all it's moved now forward it's a lot more open now but in Sweden like they're bilingual they're very much a family-based culture they're friendly people they also have very good knowledge of football from a technical and tactical standpoint because they have good coaches there good coaching programs and a lot of people have played football for men's and women's so they're very sort of gender neutral because of just how the country is so there's a lot of money that goes into young girls as well as young boys you have really good talent that's coming um sweden so for all of those reasons we felt like it was a great place to start and to have we needed that in our puzzle as we're building a puzzle across europe you need that part of the puzzle for a club and then in montpellier we we have like an amazing academy so you have like under 13 all the way up so there's a complete player pathway development which is extremely rare in women's football extremely rare and so half of our players right now are coming from our academy and that just is is like almost it doesn't happen like how many chelsea players come from the chelsea women's academy right like they buy a bunch of players so so yeah i think it is it's not necessarily a sell i wouldn't call it a selling league I would call it a great place to land for players and to develop and if that's where they end up staying that's where they end up staying and if they go on to other clubs and so be it but we're there to kind of develop players on and off the pitch and find the right place for every player in the ecosystem and they that certainly plays an important role in that I guess it's interesting

28:14Bex Smith:you know I remember growing up getting awareness of men's professional football at the point where the first million pound transfers were being signed in the men's game right

28:23Matt Rogan:late 70s early 80s how old are you wow oh shush much much older getting older working with rich

28:32Bex Smith:but the what i remember from that is my dad sitting in the front of the car as we went to my kind of little mini league games every and every time the transfer so it's not going to go up it's not going to go up but just it being a steady growth and then the premier league setting up and it's starting to become exponential and there's proper money coming in. And my reflection on being a Chelsea fan, sort of watching some of the numbers that Chelsea are paying in the last even six, eight months is we feel like we're right at the beginning of some of those exponential player trading numbers. And I'm interested in how that relates to the sort of investment conversations you have because there's nothing an investor in early stage businesses likes more than having an unquantified upside in the model.

29:18Bex Smith:We should talk about the investment because I think just so the listeners are aware. So you and there's a difference because you've bought different stakes in Montpellier than you have in Rosengard. So just let's talk about that. You've got 49 percent of Rosengard. And tell me about France.

29:37Matt Rogan:So actually, interestingly, we own the vast majority of the economic stakes of Sweden. So it's a little bit complex because the clubs are sort of fan-owned their associations. So when we pulled it out and made it into an Idradsalbe, which is just like a Swedish word for a company, we then bought the majority of the actual company. But what we had to leave is the 49 % of the vote. Like we only have 49 % of the voting rights. so that means that what we did is we we have like a list of consent items where they have the final say on things like to avoid what happened to wimbledon for example like moving to a different country or i mean country would be but city or if we wanted to change the entire stakeholder agreement or you know all those things then the majority of the board and we we're equal on the board we're three and three and the chairwoman makes like the final call and so those consent matters are we have 49 percent over because those are things where we think well we've already set those we're in agreement of those and they're not really going to change over time all the operational decisions from a day-to-day we have full control over so we run the club and we own most of the club so just yeah it was one of those things where in terms of pr and making sure that fans don't go absolutely berserko in Sweden that, you know, because we want the fans to be involved.

31:01Matt Rogan:Like it is very much fan based club. So we take all of that into consideration. We never make decisions anyway in silos, but at Montpellier, we own a hundred percent of the club as well. And so we're looking at majority stakes because we're putting in all of the operational expertise. We're building tech and data and having an understanding of like all of our fan bases and collecting data. So we should be able to run and make most of the decisions. And if we're leaving equity with another party, it's because we want to align incentives. And that's what it is in Sweden as well.

31:38Bex Smith:No, I think it's useful because, again, you can see 49 % and then jump to a whole range of misconceptions about what that means. And we had Victoire on from Mercury 13. And one of the conversations we had is really interesting conversation about, you know, what is available to buy in the marketplace. And, you know, when you're looking at buying the women's club of a Premier League team, for example, even if that's available, what the implications of that are. and in terms of to your exactly to your point if you're building equity value in something you want to own the the thing rather than you know building it for tottenham or chelsea and then them taking

32:20Matt Rogan:it back in 10 years time so and just one thing on the what's available i think we're not looking at what's available like i've had many clubs come to me and say like can you buy we're actually looking at what clubs we want and going and having those discussions with them so rosenark is not available it wasn't in a structure that was able to be purchased we had to go through that whole process and same with Montpellier Montpellier came to us because they know you know me and what we were doing and yeah so anyway I think I mean I think it's you know it's quite an interesting moment

32:49Bex Smith:to have you on because quite often me and Matt talk about this a lot in terms you've got these sports specific funds that are you know there's money waiting to be deployed across all sports and whether it's an NBA Europe franchise or a paddle something or other. But some of it is pointing at the women's game. And again, it's sort of interesting to see if that's the incentive in the marketplace for club owners, how they respond to that and what the market looks like. Sorry, Matt. No, it's interesting. I was just reflecting back on what you were saying, Bex, around the sort of player trading piece, thinking if I was an investor looking at maybe providing more funds so you could build out your model with some other clubs in this sort of initial skeleton.

33:37Bex Smith:You know, actually the idea of utterly unquantified upside in the player training space. Knowing what happened then when, you know, it's a few years of gradual growth and then the Premier League in England started and then the player transfer fees went berserk. I sort of think, crikey, if I was an investor putting money in, I'd quite like to know that that upside was entirely unquantified, to recognize that in order to generate that, you know, I have a regular listeners will know, I have a son and a daughter in sort of pathway systems at the moment in a different sport and know full well that to get the best out of aspiring elite females, the performance environment has to look utterly different.

34:20Matt Rogan:Yep.

34:21Bex Smith:Absolutely, completely different from the male one. The way the backgrounds, the coaches, the way they develop every infrastructure system psychological performance technical medical everything has to look different and so in a world where there's an unquantified upside and a leadership team who understand what it takes to drive performance in female sport I go okay that's really interesting so do you find yourself when you're having those investor conversations do you find yourself sort of trying to leave that as a bit of a like what would Taylor Swift's phrase would be an easter egg wouldn't it she'd leave an easter egg somewhere in the model just to discover at some point or do you find yourself sort of alluding to that more and more in the

35:03Matt Rogan:conversations you're having with investors i mean first of all can you just come to all my pitches because i feel like you get it and you said it in a much more succinct way than i ever do but i think we we nod to where the market is going with data with like very clear data it's not like oh we're having these conversations and these these transfers have happened so here's what the trajectory is already done. And in the last four years, it's doubled every year. And now it's just like, it's hit that sort of tipping point now. So sure, when people want to understand that, I think definitely, but it also is one of those where like there's phases in how you build teams.

35:41Matt Rogan:So, you know, we buy a player and they may take six months to get to their peak. They may take two years they may take five they may never hit it so there's still like some risk in um the timelines and the percentage of so we have a very clear understanding of like what if you buy x players this percentage will actually be the ones that will be that like there's it's there's a lot of data around what ted is doing so i think we're far ahead of the curve in terms of that but it's still not really modeled in because for example if we want to do a big expenditure if we wanted to it's not part of our strategy but if we did want to buy a 500k player because we think they can be worth 5 million in two years because we have the best environment to develop that them into that player how do we that's not modeled in because that is a decision that we're going to have to take with our investors when and if because we'll have a lot more data and proof points to show how capable we are of getting to that point so still too many question marks i think matt to and and they have to remain as easter eggs right now i hear you some people agree i've had investors say that needs to be modeled in you guys are absolutely underselling yourself so it's just my opinion it's not necessarily the majority opinion even from our own investors or people looking to invest.

37:04Bex Smith:What's the impact of Michelle Kang? She comes up, you know, regularly on this podcast in terms of just in the marketplace. And in France, obviously, she's arguably the most powerful person in the league. And certainly she owns the men's and women's side. And that's, you know, in terms of that, having that entity, and it's the same question in the WSL and in the NWSL. So what is it that she brings? I can sort of see, again, looking from the outside, I think, okay, upside would be it's a good signal of confidence into the product, but you've got to then put a team up against her team, and she's then going to be richer than you, and there's going to be a player differentiation.

37:48Bex Smith:And just give me a sense of what she brings to the market, to the league.

37:54Matt Rogan:Yeah, I mean, besides her incredible fashion sense, I think every time I see your outfits, I'm like, wow, it's like full Gucci or full whatever. So that's fantastic. Kudos to her for that. Me here in my unico sweater. But I think she's a very savvy, intelligent businesswoman. So to have someone who has been so successful in her previous life and career to see the women's game and say, this makes sense. I'm going to do this. I think definitely justifies some of what we're seeing. and then on the flip side you already mentioned like she has more money than god so she doesn't necessarily need the investment to make sense for her from an investment standpoint it's more of a i want to invest in this because i believe in it and i want to help with the growth so we have we we sit on sort of different ends of the spectrum from that sense because we don't have more money than god and we have to answer to her and i mean that with all due respect you know I admire her, but I, we have to prove that there's a model where we're getting returns on it and she doesn't necessarily have to do that.

39:03Matt Rogan:So we're, we're totally different from that standpoint. And like, I would, I would even go so far as to, to say, I think there's like not a risk, but to invest more in the top teams where they, that's not where the game needs it is not necessarily the best thing for the women's game. I can understand why she's done it because, you know, she wants to be the best and own the best. And that's great. And sit at the table and to have a seat at the table to be able to to have an opinion. If you own the best club in Europe, it certainly helps with Lyon and some of the best clubs, you know, on the planet.

39:41Matt Rogan:And she's building and driving growth into them. But where the game where the game where I believe the game needs the most investment is where we're investing, which is the clubs that are like three, four downwards, because that's where the gap is just getting bigger in the women's game. And there's a, there's a risk that that trajectory gets worse and the gap gets so big that then there's less jeopardy in the league. The games become less interesting. And I even had a conversation with the Olympic Lyon fan about a year ago, which was like a real a massive insight for me which helped us build our whole sort of philosophy which is that i said well how was the game how's the game in the stadium i haven't been to the olympic leone stadium i haven't seen them play live like how is it and she's like i don't you don't go to the games i'm like what you were like obsessed with olympic leone she's like yeah yeah but we win like eight nil every game so like why would i go watch them that's not i want to support and like wow that's that's not good for the game like we need more people to be going in stadium we need more people to consume and if the the stories aren't good because it's the same you know Chelsea's won what six times in a row and okay there's some times where maybe Man City could have won last season and you know but you need that jeopardy and I remember seeing this thing from the Premier League where it was like this circle and it was like Man City was at the top and they beat this team, Brentford, and Brentford beat West Ham and West Ham beat, and it went all the way back around and the last team beat Ben City.

41:09Matt Rogan:So it was like at any one point, I don't necessarily think it's true, but at any one point, any Premier League team could beat any Premier League team. But that's why I think closed leagues and salary caps work in the US because it makes the leagues more even. It makes it more competitive. You can argue that NWSL is a much more competitive league than WSL because they used to have the draft system as well so investors investors like a closed league don't they because it gives them security and it means that they haven't got the the nightmare of relegation you know in terms

41:42Bex Smith:of financially are you are you instinctively for closed leagues you like closed leagues no i just

41:48Matt Rogan:i i look i can see i can understand from a business case why it makes sense for certain stakeholders i think that for other stakeholders like fans it's not as interesting because the problem that the nwsl has now and i've spoken to them at length about it is that the the teams that are sitting sort of that aren't as competitive they don't have to invest anymore because there's no need to so you have all these clubs coming in who are paying 110 million just in a franchise fee so they haven't paid one thing for the club they haven't they'll own anything they don't own any they don't pay any salaries but 110 million here just for the right to be able to own a club in your league.

42:28Matt Rogan:And then you have other clubs that are like putting in minimal investment into their club. They're not, they're not improving. So there's a, there's a risk that you have stagnation in the development of the league with certain clubs, if you're not incentivizing them to continually compete in the top league. So I, I don't believe in one or the other. I just think there's pros and cons and you have to look at it from like overall stakeholder management and different stakeholder perspectives, why certain things work for different parts of the game,

42:56Bex Smith:right like do you is that in terms of is that something is the solution to that a european super league or a global fifa club world cup ish league the best versus the best is that where we go is that what the market wants do you think oh them be fighting words rich

43:16Matt Rogan:i don't the super league is kind of you're talking about in the women's league in the

43:21Bex Smith:women's game i mean no just in terms of how you've laid out the product problem at a league domestic league level right one of the answers to that and i'm i'm so far away from being a supporter of european super league yeah but that's why the mark you know the money that's what the money wants we're told and we're told that the new generation of fans want the best for the best they want clips They want stars over team brands. All of those trends would point me towards, okay, a closing at the top. Yeah, I think. And across Europe.

43:56Matt Rogan:Yeah, and I can see why that question comes up quite a lot. But because the women's, like there is more of a stretch between the top and the bottom in most of the leagues in women's games. So it comes up a lot. But I think it's a very, very short-sighted view of the game. Because if you do that, you kill football. You kill it. 100 % because where we need the investment is like teams four and down so that we have more interesting leagues that we have more investment coming in that there's a full league that there's more opportunities for more girls to play at the top level that you don't have this like these are the super players who earn super money and then these are the poor kids and then you have you will have fewer players coming to participate because they're like well I'm not that good and the chances of me getting way up there so low and the next step down is so great that it's not – like I never wanted to be – I use myself as a – I never wanted to be a professional footballer because I was like, why would I spend all that time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears for like a shit salary?

44:59Matt Rogan:No offense. But like only because I was a captain of a national team and could play in World Cups and Olympics and could play in Europe and like travel and, you know, get different degrees and learn languages. Like there was a whole, there was a value proposition for me that made sense, but it was not the sound. And, and so you will, you will get fewer players coming in to play and the quality will drop. And it's a very short term, like, look at a solution, a quote unquote solution to where the game is now. I wholly disagree with that. I think there needs to be more people copying us. I think that's why what we're doing, everyone's like, yeah, but what if more people come in with more money?

45:38Matt Rogan:I'm like, great. because we'll build our fan base, they'll build theirs, and we'll have more, it'll be more interesting. All the match days will be more interesting. There'll be better players. There'll be more competition. It'll drive prices of everything up. Like, it's only going to help us if there's more competition and all of it. Back to your Michelle Kang question. Like, she's putting more money into the game. So more money into the game in not just at Lyon, but London City Lionesses, for example. So seeing them do so well. And it's incentivizing others to do the same, and it's pushing other people to compete.

46:10Matt Rogan:And I think we need that. I guess in any fast growth, fairly early stage market,

46:16Bex Smith:if you're an entrepreneur, you need the market to grow as well as your own product to grow. And number two, if early stage capital hadn't existed in something like the internet, we'd all still be wandering around using Yahoo as our server on dial-up. you know so so so if we need talent supply we need continued innovation we need products continue to improve you have to put money below the very top of the tree because believe me you know if the um if the top of the tree is in a closed environment and doesn't care about the grassroots then you got a problem you do which is which is one of the problems my understanding one of the problems you got in places like uh the nfl at the moment is all of a sudden you haven't got quite the supply through of world-class talent coming into the college game in North America because you have a lot of parents asking questions about concussions.

47:11Bex Smith:So the kids aren't playing versions of the game between eight and 12. And when you cut off that supply in any sport, you have a longer term problem. Sorry, ran over. No, no, no. I think it's interesting. I wonder if your former home FIFA have a solution to this. because my assumption is again like you're you know the american system i immediately rebel against it for all the reasons that you've articulated i don't like it but is there a hybrid are we moving towards something else that understands these broader arguments and creates an entertainment product at the top which makes everyone aspire to get into it it's not closed as such but it does have a route in it allows the pyramids to thrive in the way that we all want them to thrive but is also not averaging 5 000 people a gate you know which is a wsl which is again you know doing well in terms of the relative european leagues but the attendance outside of arsenal and chelsea is very very low so or relatively low so trying to and back going right back how long have we got and i you know the question i talked to nikki to set about is that she's in the hot seat for a very very important period of time because decisions that are made now could well have 30-year implications on women's football and I worry that their sleepwalking is a very English reference into being professional rugby in that they make the mistakes and we've we've got a 20-year case study or 30-year case study there of actually it's not football it's not Premier League football is the wrong model and aping that is going to be difficult because you've got the same organizations who that's what they do they'll create Champions Leagues they'll create all the stuff that you know the men's game has had as a proof of concept for the women's game and i'm not sure that that's the right route and arguing against that is going to be difficult

49:00Matt Rogan:amen that's all i'm going to say like a hundred percent the structures that are created for women are not created for women's football the fan bases for women in particular you said it too matt like how you create the back office the men every single structure you look at for women's football needs to be looked at completely uniquely from men's. And everybody says, oh, we shouldn't copy paste the men's. If I hear it one more freaking time, I will lose my absolute shizzle because everybody does, it's the same. They copy paste all of it. And I think Nikki Doucette is doing an incredible job, incredible job here at the WSL behind the scenes, which no one knows.

49:43She's a good friend of mine.

49:45Matt Rogan:So I know how much she's working hard on trying very hard to look at the right structures for the women's game, but she's also dealing with stakeholders who are coming from the men's game. For as much as maybe some of those women's football clubs and fans want to do what's right for the women's game, like you still have people who are sitting in rooms who are not understanding where the women's game is and where it needs to go. And just very traditionalist in terms of like how football is run, maybe, arguably, I'm not saying like it is or it isn't but i know especially in england like it's it's it's hard to like change structures because people you know they're they're religious about their football and in some ways that's amazing and that's why it's been able to be commercialized so strongly here and fan bases have been able to grow but equally you have to make sure that you're not like holding on to

50:35Bex Smith:structures that are outdated and so interesting yeah so rich you mentioned rugby so it's right You mentioned rugby and you'd argue that probably one of the most enlightened approaches to developing a long term women's league is probably PWR. So we had Genevieve Shaw on the part as well. Some of the things that almost the crisis in the men's game has enabled them to do, you know, have been salary caps, has been ensuring relatively even distribution of red roses across the teams in the PWR, has been having more flexibility around some of the operating models, having a couple of teams that work closely with unis where the pathway talent sits, just having a bit more space on the back of some of the challenges in the men's game.

51:21Bex Smith:And you could imagine that Nicky sat on a really successful men's game, but in some ways that's the most challenging way to redefine something. Changing before you have to is not easy. That's it. And then running in parallel, Matt, again, this is a bit local, but a women's British Lions tour makes no sense to me. So, you know, because it's almost an anachronism in the men's game. It's something that grew out, you know, and lo and behold, away we go. It's an exact replica. And the business model of the Lions is so weird and odd. Trying to replicate that is going to be very difficult. Anyway, we're going slightly off.

51:55Matt Rogan:There's a, I wanted to ask, sorry.

51:58Bex Smith:Yeah.

51:58Matt Rogan:No, the only other thing I would say is I think there's one way that you can make sure that you're incentivizing the right things so that you're looking at things like grassroots that we were talking about, and that's club licensing. So what are the criteria that you have to have as a club to be able to play in XYZ League, WSL2, WSL1, Fraumundesliga, Damoswenskan, the Archima D1? And that's one way that you can start to control. If you have to have an academy system, if you have to spend X amount on medical, I know Nikki has implemented that you have to have, I don't know what the name of it is, so don't quote me on this, but it's like a performance and wellness person, a player performance and wellness person in each of the clubs in the WSL.

52:45Matt Rogan:like that is that is a very clear way to show what the values are of what they believe that is important in the women's game and to make sure that you are investing in areas that are important for long-term growth and benefit of all rather than what sometimes clubs are looking for which is like short-term money in the door which is not always best for the long-term growth of the game

53:09Bex Smith:yeah i've got a question about sevens because you're obviously involved in in you know that as a as a event i so it was something that sort of i was aware of and it was a lot of money and tea you know it suddenly got a lot of attention last year and maggie murphy is a is a friend of ours and you know as is does was host of expected goals our business of women's football uh podcast with matt cutler one of the and we had we were doing an event just before christmas and i was surprised she sort of we were talking about this sort of conversation about women's football and she mentioned sevens as potentially another product so she said it wouldn't be a massive shock if you go on arsenal's website in a few years time and they would have a you know it's a separate route you have men's women's and women's sevens and that actually sets up it's a sort of 2020 cricket argument that there is a there is a separation of the types of players that you want and all of that.

54:15Bex Smith:Can you just talk to me about that a bit? Because it feels like it's a sort of, it's analogous, but it's also a bit of a microcosm of the conversation we're having and where the demand for that, and is the demand the same for that as it is for what I would call the traditional women's football game, 11-1 on grass.

54:33Matt Rogan:I mean, I think it's all up for debate because it's quite new. It's kind of like, well, King's League or Ballers League, and is there a demand for it? Well, they're finding out where there is and isn't, And I think that that's a really interesting one, too. There's certainly a demand for different formats of football that are already played. Like I love sevens. I loved playing sevens when I did have a functioning knee and small sided games and indoor. And I think as you get older, it becomes a little bit easier to play as well. So you don't have to run around like the massive pitch. So I think there's like a real community of people who play sevens on a regular basis as well.

55:09Matt Rogan:So it's certainly not something that's like pulled out of nowhere. And where did this come from? It's played all around the planet. The sevens tournament, yes, I helped them set up the tournament from like an operations standpoint. So I'm not involved with them anymore because I have a lot going on with the two clubs already and investors and looking at third and fourth and fifth clubs already. So I'm not involved with them anymore. But I do think it's an interesting format. I mean, yeah, there's certainly some things I think that are done well and some things I think that could be improved in just that tournament in and of itself.

55:48Matt Rogan:But I'll put that to the side because I think one of the things like we're looking at is what are the other opportunities going back to the financial modeling and your question, Matt, about like what do you include in there and what becomes like Easter eggs, as you call them, or I call them like cherries on top, like including player trading, including the media rights because it's not something we control and one of them is like other tournaments that we're looking to do like obviously my background is running creating and running tournaments so is it of interest that we have you know different types tournaments or that partaking in tournaments and we have we own that ip yeah for sure i think it matters a lot about the stakeholders so i think some of the you know where you host the games and making sure that you're it's not just so easy to start a tournament and like hold it in a random country and like having to get sort of approvals but not approvals from different governance is not as easy as I think a lot of people would yeah just don't understand the politics of football so I think they've run into issues on that and are working through different elements of that but yeah I like I like sevens but I'm biased because I used to play it and I would still play it if I could does fifa like it it's a good question but fifa doesn't have any authority over it or or uefa because fifa and all the governing bodies that sit underneath fifa only run 11 aside and it's very clear in their statutes in the regulations that they only are an 11 aside and then so futsal and beach sort of came sat outside of that so beach was actually start like don't quote me on any of this it's just how i've understood it through my time at fifa but it was started by a whole other entity and then it sort of got absorbed by FIFA and very similarly the the futsal but in terms of like managing seven aside it's not something that sits under their remit would they want to expand their remit into seven aside I guess they could but they would have to probably see a commercial opportunity for it and is it something else that they want to be running when beach was kind of run by another external entity and you know as overtime and And futsal is just a really easy one to do.

57:59Matt Rogan:Seven Aside is, yeah, I would say a little bit more complex. But currently, they don't have any jurisdiction over it.

58:06Bex Smith:It's interesting. There's sort of echoes of the FA and Six Aside, in terms of their relationship. And the sort of history of governing bodies is to sort of be against something until it makes money and then move towards wanting to own it. And then steal it.

58:23Matt Rogan:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, perfect. Yeah. I think just on that, because you said something about FIFA, like could they be a solution? I don't think that governing bodies do enough really to develop the game anywhere. I think the FA here in England has done a great job and they certainly invested under Sue many years ago. And I think that's the reason why they've been able to develop the league and then pull it out and sort of run it separately to the FA. But the key there is that they're running, it's now run separately to the FA because I don't think federations really are incentivized to build commercial products and to do what's right for the game from like the full picture because there's a constant tension between developing grassroots and the elite game.

59:06Matt Rogan:And so having both of those sit in the same body is very, very difficult. And I think FIFA can do more. UEFA probably is the confederation that does the most. But confederations all around the planet are very, very lazy when it comes to women's football. So that was one of the reasons why I went into club. Because I know that when you own clubs, you really have a chance to drive real growth. And that's where players are playing day in, day out. And you can create systems. You can create templates. and you can actually create things that are copy-paste to pass on to other clubs around the world that can ideally help grow the game.

59:42Matt Rogan:But I don't think that they do enough. And that's maybe my most controversial thing I'll say, but I just don't. No, I don't think it's controversial at all.

59:49Bex Smith:I think there's a sort of, it's a DNA question. Quite often it's, you know, we talk about this a lot in terms of across the podcast, people come on from Paddle and Moan about tennis authorities. people talk you know at park run why why did that not you know why were uk athletics not starting park run and you know so there's a sort of it's a cultural question which i think is really deeply rooted and incredibly difficult to solve and uh you know crossfit and weightlifting there's a whole load of you know i'm in brighton if if someone's swimming in the sea then british swimming or GB Aquatics will be sort of trying to, you know, take credit for it.

1:00:31Bex Smith:So there's a whole sort of, I throw that in because I know Drew Barron very well. He's a CEO of GB Aquatics. I always, just a quick drive by. I want to just finish off because, and you led me into this in terms of, I'm thinking about three, four and five clubs. What is the ambition for Crux? Just let's end on that because it's, that's where we started. And I think we need to just finish off with saying, well, what is it? what's utopia for this organization well ideally what our goal is is to have probably around five

1:01:04Matt Rogan:clubs five is the target across europe that are in the biggest markets in the women's game and we're building like commercial partnerships across pan-european so we have you know brands that aren't just interested in montpellier or rosengart but really across like having a european footprint and as well building tech and data platforms that are servicing all of our clubs. So there's an economies of scale in terms of investment where with one club, you can't afford the type of data collection and recruitment platforms that we're building. But it really is to drive success on and off the pitch within our clubs and within the people that are working within our club ecosystem, building fan bases that are local in Montpellier, national in France and Sweden, and then European, and even across the world.

1:01:58Matt Rogan:And I had a really interesting conversation with someone that's running one of the leagues in the US. And she was like, what you guys are doing is inspiring conversations here in the US. And I was a bit taken aback by it and shocked, to be honest, because the structures there are so good in so many ways. And obviously, everyone needs improvement, but she said like, you guys are pushing the boundaries on what setting the standards means for like players from a youth level all the way up into, to elite, but also like how you're talking about building fan bases and, and running clubs in a professional manner, I think is really setting the standard over here in the U S and I was like, I don't, I don't, I believe her, but I don't, I, yeah.

1:02:39Matt Rogan:So I think that's important that we're inspiring others to kind of copy us to invest in the women's game in the right places and spaces too because I think we have to start with the players we we have to give better structures to being able to play to train to understand nutrition to understand financial literacy you know looking at their post-career transition but just from a psychological standpoint understanding how to be a better teammate and to be able to perform at their best level on the pitch and be like a better human off because they're going to be better athletes as well. So I think like it's a, it's a, yeah, it's a big vision of really understanding what are the standards that we should be setting in clubs in football?

1:03:24Matt Rogan:Because I think that football is a bit of a wild, wild West sometimes in, is it really looked at as a business? And we're trying to look at these structures as like real professional businesses that take care of their, their employees. That was like the most winded answer I have ever given on what the hell is Crocs and where is success. But you can find something in there that you can edit, hopefully.

1:03:51Bex Smith:But in five years' time, you'll still be running the shop. You won't have sold as an entity. You might have refinanced, but you won't have sold. And it sounds like there's an organic journey of being sort of growing the clubs as entities performance and and commercial such that your biggest problem you have is when all five are knocking on the door of the champions league and you've got to cope with governance of whether you can have all five in the champions league that's it yep that'd be it and like

1:04:19Matt Rogan:building fan bases and communities that feel inclusive and celebratory and like that they're a part of something that's just bigger than just seeing if our teams win on a saturday or sunday I think that for me is really important. I think that like what the world, this is where the hokey part is, but I genuinely think like one of our purposes is to build communities that feel like inclusive and fun places where people can express themselves because I just think like the world needs more of that right now. I can't really control politics or what's going on in places that I feel are really effed up right now in the world.

1:04:57Matt Rogan:But what I can do is try to build spaces and places where people can come and have a really nice time and feel like they're a part of something and cheer for something that they believe in. And I think it's important. So that for me is like one of our criteria for success as well.

1:05:12Bex Smith:Fantastic. Great place to end and good luck with it all. Chat in five years time.

1:05:16Matt Rogan:Yeah, or 10 maybe. Thank you.