UP537 The Buy Side: Inside Unilever's FIFA World Cup Strategy

0:00Hello, welcome to Unofficial Partner, it's Richard Gillis here. Today's episode was recorded at the global HQ of Unilever in central London at their new podcast studio. And our guest was Ben Curtis, who is the global brand vice president for Rexona, which is known as Shaw in the UK and Degree in the US. We'll talk about all that. Ben oversees the global strategy for a brand that Unilever identifies as its cultural engine of the personal care business group, making it the primary vehicle for activating their huge FIFA relationship. So as the marketing world prepares for the unprecedented scale of the World Cup in North America, we're diving into the strategic blueprint required to activate at this level.

0:41This is a real top table conversation that you don't get very often. Hope you enjoy it.

0:54you've just come back from rio yes yes and i'm assuming that's to do with the women's world cup

0:59Ben Curtis:absolutely yeah we pulled a group of us together with our brazilian team so women's world cup 2027 host country is uh is brazil which i just think is fantastic and it's the 10th edition of the women's world cup yeah and you know you just have you know football the world cup is the ultimate and then brazil is the ultimate place to play the game and so we said well okay we're going to go to rio and we're going to get together as a group as a kind of global um rexona and dove team or teams and get together and just figure out how we're going to make you know this the best tournament ever and really really impactful for our band our brands and our business let's just talk about you what do you do all day what's your job just give us a bit of context so thank you very much thanks for having me on i'm uh i'm ben curtis i'm the global brand vice president for rexona otherwise known as shaw in if you're in the u.s it's known as degree shield in south africa and rexina in japan i think that's all of the names that are covered but yeah shaw or rexona to us and that means i'm responsible for the global brand so everything from the brand strategy the innovation strategy the the program of partnerships that we have at a global level so my job is to work really closely with the individual markets and make sure that they have everything they need to make Rexona or Sure degree a big success in their markets.

2:19So I've been thinking how do I buy deodorant I do buy deodorant but I'm just wondering why I do it and the choices I make

2:28Ben Curtis:so what are your assumptions yeah i mean i think it's a really i think it's a really interesting uh category ultimately ultimately it's about confidence if you if you don't use a deodorant with some antiperspirant qualities in it you'll sweat sweating is normal it's natural we're supposed to sweat it's how we we as human beings cool ourselves down but you probably notice in your in your armpits you notice it more it's only about one percent of the of the body sweat comes from your armpits it's very small amount of sweat and we sweat in a day more than a pint of water will leave our bodies so um left unchecked you will get body odor and it doesn't smell good if you've ever i'm sure at some point all of us have kind of forgotten our deodorant or we've gone past the uh the capabilities of whatever deodorant that we're using and we've had noticed that we've had body odor and it's and it's unpleasant and it's a little bit embarrassing and it can hit our confidence and so that's typically why we why we tend to use uh deodorant or antithelope so that the nub of the brand is confidence and then from there you get to you're not going to let me down there's that yeah yeah strap line which i associate with those yeah so there's a fear button yeah i mean i i i think that rexona i always say that we're standing on the shoulders of the giants that came before us so the people that invented that that strap line of it won't let you down or as we're calling it now it won't ever let you down I think was brilliant I think it's a genius line and one that I'm very happy to have and be able to kind of call upon as we evolve the brand and do new things with the brand because it's not only a promise of the superiority of the product so to tell you you know it's not going to let you down you don't want to sweat you don't want to smell you use Rexona sure it beyond that it's also an emotional connection as well because it's saying to you the product works but also we've got you you know we've got you as a brand and i think deodorant's interesting because you tend to put it on in the morning after a shower or whatever the wash in the morning and then you forget about it and i actually want you to forget about it because if you remember later on in the day it's probably because it's not working it's let you down it's failed or you forgot to put it on so it's a kind of an interesting thing where i said i want you to forget about my brand or my product after you've after you've used it so how does that then when you then get to the question of just marketing messages there's a question about how i how we get from the brand to sponsorship yeah and then from sponsorship to football yeah and but i'm just interested in the sort of journey about how i buy because it's again i don't give enormous amounts of thought to it i don't think yeah but it's got to be there so there's a sort of mental physical availability question i think is hanging around you're absolutely you're absolutely right you don't give very much thought to it so i think it's something like we've tested this it's something like average of about three and a half seconds a day I don't know how many seconds there are in a day I should know that but only three and a half of those seconds in a day are spent thinking about deodorant and that includes oh I've just got out the shower I need to put my deodorant on whatever mind talk is happening in those kind of morning ablutions that we all do so it isn't something that you're spending a lot of time thinking about and as I say for me as long as you've bought my product and my product is working for you so it kind of there are moments during the day when it'll kind of come into your mind and our job as marketers is to make sure that when those moments are likely to appear and happen it's it's my brand that you're thinking about okay let's get then to why sponsorship because you've got a lot of marketing levers at your disposal and I want to know what will end at FIFA and the World Cup this summer and next year.

6:14But take me through what the options are, because one of the conversations that we have a lot on this podcast is within the bubble of the sports market. Obviously, sponsorship is a key sort of engine of the economy. So everyone is sort of obsessed with the effectiveness of sponsorship when put against other marketing levers. So the argument for sponsorship is quite often an argument for sport. and therefore if you are on the commercial side of sport you need to know what someone like is in your head you know on the on the buy side so just take it let's just go through that then because

6:45Ben Curtis:why sponsorship what we do is sponsorship but i don't think of it as sponsorship i i think of it as trying to put rex owner and put our brand into a culturally sticky and engaging space and in order to do that i can spend a lot of money advertising so the brand can say to you yeah here's what we're all about this is a great product look how well it works and you know we can we have very good data to show that if i get that right if i do that properly a certain percentage will you know go into your mind and next time you're at the fixture or you're doing your online shopping you see my something else from me and for my brand you'll convert and buy that and that's quite that's quite good that's very much a one-way kind of street and it's a very kind of i've got a problem i've got a solution it really tends to kind of you know solidify a relationship between a brand and a shopper or consumer user is where you can have a much stronger emotional connection i could do that through advertising to a certain degree i can build an emotional connection with advertising as i was saying it won't let you down is a great way of of us doing that but actually connecting with you over a shared passion is an even better way to do that so to be part of a culture where i know that people who are predisposed to be interested in my product my brand to be part of a culture that is relevant to them show up in a meaningful way there is a way for me to really start to build that emotional connection with with with my audience so that kind of leads you to say well what are what are those spaces then where do you know where where should we do you know is it is it you know sponsor the ballet or something like that you know there are lots of things we could do as your question's alluding to um why sport and i think that it really makes sense for rexona so rexona is a brand that talks to it's about 50 50 male female globally but we have a specific range of products that we develop for men and a specific range of products we develop for for women and in some markets by the way our female business is bigger than our male business and you know but it sort of evens itself out approximately around the world what's interesting with sport and particularly football nowadays is that we have those two facets of the game and you hear people now talking about one tournament one championship to you know two teams or one club two teams and trying to get the men's and the women's game onto an even playing field even standing point and i think it's really that's really appealing for us as a brand with Rexona talk to men and talk to women so football is kind of interesting in that space so just to develop that step so when you then said right okay and I can't remember when the you signed the deal I think a couple of years ago but so the women's world cup was a significant part of the conversation so it was yes quite often in the past and probably still people say okay well we'll have the world cup but throw in the women's world cup yeah we'll have the the club shirt but okay we'll have the women's team as well what you're saying is actually you've got a plan for the for both of those and both of them are significant to us they're as important as each other the reach will get through the men's game of both genders is bigger at the moment it's mechanically it's bigger i mean how many people are going to watch this world cup men's world cup it's going to be between five and seven billion i think call it six billion people watching half of them will be women maybe just approach it approaching half so you know we can talk to both genders with with with the men's game when we go to the women's game the numbers the overall numbers are smaller growing very much growing but but smaller but we can also talk to both genders with a with the women's game as well so there's not really a um there's not really a downside for us to take both both sides of the game really really seriously and give them kind of equal billing i think in many ways i'm proud that we've been involved with the women's game from a from an earlier stage i think we're at the point now and i'm really looking forward to 2027 where I think we'll really see, you know, I felt it at the last tournament.

10:47Ben Curtis:Women's Euros last year also felt it. This game's really arrived. Just in the way people are talking and the way, the coverage that it's getting, the kind of the chat in the pub, you know, the game has sort of really arrived now. It's not a side thing anymore. So one of the, let's just again pursue that then. We have a lot of people who are running, you know, the women's game on either for FIFA or for the WSL or whatever. and they come on and one of the the questions is what's the economic model for women's football and it's not the same as men's at the moment men's is very media rights driven with sponsorship as a sort of additional income whereas actually in the women's game you could argue it's flipped and and when you start to see the the level of brands that for example wsl or fifa are growing around the women's game it is like the unilevers as well these are world famous big corporations and and some of the biggest and most premium brands so i'm wondering what's happening here and because women's football was quite often positioned as a sort of purpose play and i know that purpose is a word that we'll get to in terms of unilever and people will project onto you a purpose conversation and we'll talk about that in a second but do you see it as that way no no i mean i i Like I say, I bring this back to cultural, they're not cultural moments, but cultural properties, if I can put it like that.

12:12Ben Curtis:I mean, I don't think anyone on the street would call their football fandom a cultural property. Okay, so I sound like a bit of a corporate drone there. That's what they call themselves. So we have to call them that, don't we? It's something that people are passionate about. It's a game that people are passionate about. The quality is really high. The competitiveness is really high. And both men and women are engaged with the women's game. And at the moment, it's smaller, but it's growing. Mechanically, it's a less crowded space in terms of the number of sponsors, partners, businesses involved.

12:47Ben Curtis:Those who are involved can engage really meaningfully and get close to the players, to the clubs, to the national federations, to the tournaments. and the way that women and men kind of consume the women's game is different to the men's game as well. At tournaments it's far more experiential and it's in a way less about the kind of hardcore, you know, put your lucky socks on, you know, go to have the same breakfast that you had last time you won the game, get together with a group of friends and it's kind of like, you know, leave me alone, off we go. It's far more something enjoyed as a family, something enjoyed together, something enjoyed with a different pace and it's more experiential.

13:25Ben Curtis:So I think it's a really interesting space for us to play in. What I think is important is that we have a male side of our brand, we have a female side of our brand, we show up properly with both those sides of the brands in both those tournaments. Do you think you get more gratitude? Is that part in the mix of the sentiment that's coming back towards the brand? From the partners and the players, you think? From the audience? From the audience. That's a good question. I don't know is the honest answer. It's not something that's really... I wouldn't frame that as something that I would be looking for, if you see what I mean.

14:05Ben Curtis:I think that the way I would try to measure, in basic terms, try to measure what we're doing, the success of what we're doing, is people find that interesting. People are talking about it. People find it interesting. People find it good. My brand has risen in their consideration set, like I say. so next time you know i'm trying to occupy as much real estate in their mind as i as i is as is practical to do and then the next time they're at the point of purchase they're they're gonna pick up my my product that's the best way to show gratitude but it isn't it isn't a way i would kind of frame it but i i would i think there's different there's differing levels there's a that you see it sometimes with brands where there's a brand name attached to a tournament or a team or a game or whatever there's an led going around in in the stadium and the connection between the two things is is a little bit distant you know it's just about awareness let's i'm just going to drive awareness of my brand it's also an assumption in the men's game in the work in men's football from an audio you know from a fan's perspective you know and i sometimes think what they think of sponsorship as a as a genre if that's even the right term quite often people so is that it's an overly commercialized game it's about money and it's that story whereas i think it's different in the women's game i think there is a yeah the reason i use gratitude might be the wrong term but there is a sort of sense that it's it's closer this is entirely my own sort of projection it's closer to a sort of original a sort of sponsorship yeah in its an original sense that we are supporting the women's game.

15:37Ben Curtis:I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah. Rather than we are, there's a whole load of brand metrics. Yeah, I see what you mean. The money that's going into the women's game is more, you know, is having more impact because there's, mechanically, there's less of it overall. Yes. Yeah, good point. Yeah, I think that could well be the case, and that's a good thing. You know, it's a good thing if it's helping, you know, all of the brands that are involved and, you know, treating both tournaments with the same, you know, importance. Presumably there is an early mover advantage to that in terms of there's less clutter.

16:10Brands already are saying that we have been in this game for 10 years, 15 years, a long time. So we've been supporting. That supporting message is quite an interesting one because sometimes the sponsorship industry within the sports bubble doesn't like it because it sounds like it's a sort of more philanthropic rather than it's a commercial.

16:30Ben Curtis:Absolutely. And I think longevity is key here. I think you're right longevity is key because you get rewarded for that by by consumers by the by the audience as well they understand it get these things take time to build in people's minds you know we call them call it memory structures but we start to build these memory structures in people's minds we're involved with the sport why and as you sort of alluding to a little bit at the beginning it's there's not a natural say consumption or usage moment as a fan for the product you know it's different to a drink or a snack which you might consume whilst watching the game you can buy in the stadium or watch it watching at home it's actually different you know I want you to use it in in the morning so you can be comfortable to throw your arms in the air and shout and scream for your team without you know without the fear of sweat and odor but the moment the occasion is actually removed from the game itself from the moment of consuming the game so why are we there what role are we playing and it takes time to cement that in in the audience's mind but once you do you can then start to build on that and build on that And I think over time then, I think that reward that you're talking about from the audience is, well, these guys have been in here for the long haul.

17:39Ben Curtis:They've actually done something. They've made some improvements. They've helped this thing grow. I think that is worthwhile indeed. Again, it's sort of interesting when you look back to the levers that you've got at your disposal. I'm not saying your job used to be easy, but you used to have television and broadcast media advertising was a very central plankton. And then there were other things outside and print and whatever. But now it's just a hugely varied option of activation options to you. I don't know how you... It's brilliant, though. It's brilliant, though, honestly, because you're not talking one to many.

18:15Ben Curtis:You're talking many to many. Let's capture it as social, digital, you know, new media, if you like. The principles of what you're doing are almost the same as they've ever been. Ultimately, you're, like I say, you're trying to build awareness of your brand, give people convincing reasons to buy you. that that hasn't really changed for you know i don't know how many hundreds of years people have been doing this but that hasn't changed fundamentally how you reach the people is what's changing and that's really exciting and it gives us the opportunity if you if you think about a 30 second television commercial and you think about you know buying a super bowl spot or something like that you know and there's nothing wrong with that by the way that's absolutely brilliant as well but to to do that you have you'll have one commercial it'll go on to that 30 second spot and it's kind of everything about that has to be absolutely perfect but with new media now you also have the opportunity to say well how do i take that story that i've i've i've told in 30 seconds or one minute whatever it is there in the broadcast media where i'm talking to everyone i can possibly talk to how do i cut that that story up now instead i'm not just chopping up that 30 second into smaller pieces and serving that to people i'm actually taking the nub of that idea and that story and making it relevant to individual distinct communities around the world around a sport like football that might be interested that there's a sort of performance marketing aspect that sometimes i think brands can look opportunistic if i if you know down at the bottom of the funnel if you want to use that phrase and i'm wondering what a world cup what a sponsorship does as a sort of overarching thing that actually protects you from that accusation because obviously unilever one of the biggest companies in the world there is a status play to being at the world cup we have you know this is the company we keep them is that there are big signals there but also then when it gets to you're approaching me on the phone or there is some messaging that is much more tactical without the big umbrella sometimes I think well I don't know why I'm being yeah I you know I agree with you I think it works both ways I think you kind of go up and down the funnel as well so I think that having partnered for a long time and had had that longevity as we were saying you have the kind of compounding fact factor of people understand that Rexona is involved in football both the men and the women's game and then having long-term club partnerships for example Chelsea Manchester City that we've that we've worked with for more than 10 years we haven't just shown up and said oh World Cup that's the biggest media event on the planet in the year we need to have a piece of that we've authentically built a relationship with you know audiences with clubs with people in the game to try to put Rexona into into football culture it's a bit like going into a pub and you're on your own and there's a group of people chatting about football and you want to go and get involved because it sounds interesting you know you don't just jump in at the top and you know stop everyone else talking and say you know you it's actually you know maybe work your way in and yeah well here's my opinion but work your way into that you know what i mean and again that works so it works both ways i think sort of having that grassroots or top clubs in the premier league that i wouldn't necessarily say that's grassroots but it's a long-term partnership where the brand has been present and then a tournament like FIFA then it's kind of it's relevant it makes sense yeah the brand thing I know it as Shaw yeah because I'm British and have been brought up here with that name what do you do with that because that feels like a complication obviously it is in terms of Rexona in certain territories yeah degree in America locally to the World Cup this summer and then you've got a load of media assets and you're sort of communicating to the world how do you deal with that challenge yeah i mean it would be easier if we had one one brand name but we have very consistent what we call dbas or distinctive brand assets so we have consistency with color for example the packs will look the same wherever you are we have the tick we have the line it won't let you down non te abandona in spanish nunca te idea i'm a band donor spanish and portuguese and it's one of those things that i could say to someone but i wouldn't understand the answer yeah yeah it's uh it's it's it's it's the line that pretty much means the same thing you know it's uh won't abandon you won't let you down it's kind of the same sentiment wherever you are but you have the tick you have the brand name you have the the colors you have the product the product is is is broadly speaking the same um slight different differences in fragrance for different preferences locally nuanced preferences but But in terms of the science that's in the product, it's the same throughout the world, which is good because we're not selling something that's not as good in one part of the world as another part of the world.

22:52Ben Curtis:It's high quality wherever you are. It's a challenge for us. Honestly, it is. But I think that the more consistency we have with our distinctive brand assets, the more I think the audience will see that tick, that line. Oh, it says sure. It says Rexona. I mean, before I took this job, I'd be watching, you know, a game, maybe a game that was at Manchester City and I'd see the LED boards and I'd see Rexona there. And I got it. I understood. Yeah, that's that's sure. It's Rexona. I don't think it's as discombobulating for the audience as it as it might be. But certainly it would be easier if we had one brand name.

23:25Well, it's a brand asset answer, isn't it? And the Man City thing or the Chelsea thing, it's interesting. I was trying to work out, well, why Rexona there? And presumably it's about the Premier League's global media footprint. Yeah, so you'll see sure as well.

23:40Ben Curtis:So we'll use both in those club partnerships. But yeah, it's about the power of the Premier League and those clubs in particular with their global audiences. Those games are being watched all over the world and mainly that's where the brand is known as Rexona. So we'll use both. when you sit down and you look at a fifa package there'll be a lot of people listening who are either side of that equation and you know either been through the process or have been on the sales side of that what do you get that is not obvious within this negotiation i can see that unilever would bring enormous distribution power for example and how i'm interested in how that plays in the conversation yeah in terms of what what it is that you can do and also there's a question about audience how much you know about the audience more than presumably fifa do i mean fifa are a very advanced organization in terms of their data and their understanding of their their product if i can put it like that i sort of shudder to think you know to call again the products but yeah but it but you know on on one level it it really is that they really they have a very good understanding of of of that the value of that so it's a big commitment for anybody you know that that's that's entering into one of these partnerships it's a big commitment but what i've been really impressed with is is is that word is that partnership word and it's just how fifa approach working with us and there's something that i can't i'm so excited about something that we've agreed to do with them that i can't actually say today i'm sorry sorry that was really annoying maybe we can talk again in a few weeks but it's something that we've agreed that we'll we'll do with them and as part of that there's like a world first with with fifa that we'll do which they brought they brought to us as part of something that is you know you would might call it as part of their standard package they were thinking well how can we make this more interesting and more authentic to a partnership we have with um with Unilever and they brought an idea to us for for something in in game that we'll that we'll do with them and it's super exciting and I think that's you know that speaks to the relationship that we've built with them over, you know, a good period of time.

25:53Ben Curtis:But I also think it speaks to their kind of their understanding of their brand, their business, their audience, and ours as well, and also how to make these partnerships, you know, really work for both parties. So, yeah, I mean, anybody listening to this knows this type of thing is a big, it's a huge commitment. It's a huge investment on our part. and we are fully focused in this building today and in this office we're fully focused on delivering a big return for that investment that we've made but doing that in a way that feels like there's a benefit for everybody so there's a benefit for the fans.

26:35Ben Curtis:So we've got limited edition packs for example that we've developed with FIFA but with the player ambassadors that we've got with Rexona so that you can collect all of these these packs they look fantastic and you know that that's something that people people want people would like to have that we've partnered with other football partners or football adjacent partners with panini in brazil for example to to give away you know exclusive stickers etc so there are things that are you know that it's not just sticking a logo on a pack and saying you know there you go this is about bringing the theater the excitement the the you know something in it for you as the shopper i want to collect all these cans they're amazing they look beautiful and i want to keep them you know i use the product i'm going to keep the can because it's got vinnie jr's face on it and his his signature um and vinnie doesn't like signing you know putting his signature on onto products but he loved this can so much that he that he that he you know he put his signature onto it which is which is fabulous so you get vinnie and his signature and and so as a shopper as a consumer as as a you know as a young football fan that's that's brilliant that's something good for you and you get a great deodorant product um for us we're selling products which is which is good and for fifa we're getting their their brand their property into you know as you say into into mass distribution and into places in stores where they wouldn't naturally normally be if you see what i mean so i think it's a win-win-win and that's that's always the best i mean it sounds a bit cliche but it's always the best uh the best thing nobody's losing out a lot of the conversation on our private group and within the sort of unofficial partner network has been around the drinks break and i was wondering if this is good for you guys because they've split up the you know halves and they've created what effectively is a piece of advertising marketing and advertising inventory in the middle of each half and if i if you're about sweating playing football in 90 degrees will uh will do it that's that feels like an opportunity what did you think when you saw them do that i mean i think it's i think it's i mean first and foremost i think it's about player well-being you know first and foremost that's really important and then of course there's an opportunity there um in that moment there's players stopped so you know there's a there's a breather there's a there's a moment maybe there's a moment of tension as well maybe that comes at a moment when one team is on top of the of the other if you like and that and there's a bit of a break in in in that flow so maybe that's causing tension which is which is a which is an interesting space for our our brand to be because what we say with rexona is whatever happens you know the highs and the lows whatever happens rexona will never let you down will never ever let you down so in those moments of tension if you've used your rexona you'll be fine for the players of course you know they're they're they're they will sweat you know they they will sweat during the game and and and so there are interesting things that we're looking at that i that i can't share that again it's kind of adjacent to this but in it for people that wouldn't want to be sweating in those in those moments and and how we can put our brand into into that space in a way that feels authentic and interesting and fun sort of created i mean initially it was the again the it's into the conversation the industry conversation went to drinks and refreshment and all that but it does create a moment for you as well i can see that yeah i mean the the this brand is about we always say it's about science so high you know that the science that goes into um rexona is is phenomenal and one of the first things i did when i took over this this job was i went to visit r &d the research and development people to understand what's a deodorant you know what goes inside is it you know is it how are we different to anybody else that's out there and i was blown away by the the story of the science and the breakthrough that they made and the kind development it's all patented stuff that that we have superiority that we that we have in in our products here and unilever steodorants products are superior to anything else that's there in the market and as a marketeer that's a brilliant starting point because it's not just marketing then it's actually a product that is genuinely better so the science that goes into the product is is phenomenal and not a lot of people know about that and as we were talking to earlier you wouldn't necessarily bang on and on about that in your 30 second advert you use it as a reassurance as a reason to believe but when you're talking to there'll be there'll be communities and constituencies of people out there they're quite interested in the science so tell me what's in here what does it do how does it work um and we can tell that story which is which which is great which is really interesting so science high performance so the products are really high performance and i can't make you high performance i can't make you you know you can't make me ace this podcast right i can't do that but what it can do is stop me worrying about sweat and odor during the during the podcast because it's a high performance product that will that will work which puts you in control so we talk about science performance and control and the the kind of the the the parallels to to that as a kind of structure for the brand with football the elite game you know that those are actually all things that are kind of really present in in both the men's game and the women's game.

31:45Ben Curtis:And for us, there's a strong link there for why football, why would we be involved in the game? One of the other things that I think is quite interesting is just speaking about science, is that a lot of scientific research that's done is done, it tends to be dominated by men. So it tends to, I think it's something like only 30, 30 35 percent of all clinical trials have women in them and it's an even lower number for kind of exclusively exclusively trialed on women and it's even lower in sport i think um i think it's something like 10 in in in sport so so scientific experiments testing that's done in sport tends to be male dominated so for us as a brand where we test our products where we design our products where we, you know, the trials that we do on our products, we do, you know, trials on men and trials on women.

32:40Ben Curtis:And we develop our products for women. We develop products for men. It's really interesting for us to lean into that and say, well, there's a space in there for us that could be quite interesting in the future for how we talk about our science and our brand with regards to elite athletes. And the edge that, you know, you'll know this better than me, but the edge that elite athletes clubs are looking for we're in the sort of you know less than one percent of a of a gain right and and maybe there's a maybe there's a gain in there somewhere to do with sweat to do with you know salt retention etc etc hydration it's very interesting from a science perspective that the brand could play it's part of the sort of the story of the rise of data in football more generally isn't it pub chat has become much more data focused and that's fascinating isn't it like xg who was who was talking about xg a few years ago and now we've all read inverting the pyramid as well and we're experts yeah and it's a sort of i guess there's a question there about that shift because it's quite often it's sort of intellectually interesting but football is about emotion and heart and that shift is quite delicate because you start to say okay it's the var thing you know it's ruining the game so there's a dynamic there marketing and advertising is all about or quite often about emotion and getting to the emotion that you're right there about what we call sport science is actually men's sport science i think yeah shout bas moffat at the well we as a previous podcast guest but she's done some you know great work on trying to tackle that question yeah about the physiology of women and putting that into the conversation into the into the data and laura youngson either sport who's making football boots for women again extraordinary stuff that that hasn't been done thus far i mentioned purpose i need to ask you a question we're at unilever the the classic marketing unilever question has been okay you were about purpose under one ceo the new ceo has shifted you away from purpose is that a simplistic framing of it because ultimately purpose is a big question in sports marketing yeah i i have a slightly different take on on the whole purpose thing which is i think what we're talking about a lot of the time when we talk about purpose is what what is your brand for like what do you what do you stand for so i talked about science performance control great but what you know what does what does that mean well like like i say in the end my my purpose as a brand is to give you the control over sweat and odor and maybe some other problems like i said you know like no marks on your clothes that kind of thing maybe cooling freshness etc longevity of fragrance so all those things that you might be looking for i can you know my purpose in life is to is to is to deliver those solutions for you and it got i think a little bit confused sometimes where with where there were some brands whose purpose was much more about making a kind of, I don't know, a societal impact that was broader than the functionality of the product.

35:52Ben Curtis:And for some brands, that's really at the center of what that brand stands for, what they're for. That's what I'm for. And in fact, some brands only exist to have a societal impact. and it's almost a byproduct of that societal impact is that they sell some product as well, which is perfectly legitimate, good, interesting thing to do. But ultimately, people want to buy from brands that they trust. Why would you trust a brand? Well, because the brand is solving my problem. It's doing something for me. It's giving me something that I'm looking for. It's meeting a need. It's meeting a need that is not being met elsewhere.

36:35Ben Curtis:and it's doing it in such a way that that makes me feel you know positive and emotionally engaged with with you know the way the brand is approaching that and part of that will be don't do bad things you know don't don't you know try to have a positive impact on people on the planet you know etc etc and i don't think those things have gone away i don't think it was a kind of binary purpose no purpose i think that you know like i say there were there were just different interpretations of of that that's my interpretation and i think is um you know it's serving us quite well on on rexona because we're very clear about what what our brand is for what our product is for the the sort of external environment has shifted hasn't it changed and we're going to an america in going to a world cup in the u.s turning up with purpose-led messaging at that tournament is going to be more controversial it's going to be dismissed as woke i mean it again it comes back to your what what your definition of purpose is, if you see what I mean.

37:36Ben Curtis:So I think that, you know, for us on Rexona, you know, this is going to be the biggest tournament that FIFA have put on. Three brilliant host nations, great cities. You know, Wales might even qualify again if I'm lucky. You know, it's like this is like I cannot wait for this tournament to arrive. We've developed products, limited editions. We developed a suite of comms assets, you know, advertising that I'm just so excited to see get out there. And, you know, we're going to be working with a bunch of content creators at our House of Fresh, which is a Unilever engagement platform. I don't know what we call it, but a kind of Unilever event at each of the big games.

38:26So it's an actual studio.

38:26Ben Curtis:yeah yeah exactly it'll be an actual studio there where we're inviting content creators to come and create their content there and obviously there's a bunch of whole bunch of stimulus there that will support them in doing that and i'm just really excited about about that and getting and getting that out there i think that yeah the rest of the rest of it is you know it's i mean it's football it's going to be amazing what does the size of the thing do because obviously again it's it's it's a much bigger tournament yeah i i i mean again i just i i i think there's obviously a limit to how big you can you know you can you can make something but there's still such there's still such jeopardy in who qualifies right so it's not as if like everyone's qualified you know italy have still got to get past northern ireland and then bosnia or wales right 48 teams is 48 markets presumably yeah i mean yeah yeah it expands from that from that sense it's fantastic It's absolutely fantastic because, you know, the more markets we can talk to.

39:23Ben Curtis:And I think that if your home country, your country's playing in the World Cup, it's brilliant. You may have, you know, we have a brilliant time. I was saying we were in Rio last week. You know, we have Brazil and Argentina. They're sort of like, you know, the football rivalry there is amazing. And so we just almost watch the Rexona teams in both those markets. We watch the banter between the two. It's absolutely brilliant. If you look at the work they're doing on Rexona and football fandom, it's brilliant. It's really, really exciting. then you have some of the smaller latin american markets coming to play as well so bolivia um colombia the work that they're doing is absolutely fantastic and then you know the mexico mexico so we're hosts we're hosting you know we we know how to host and you know the the rf1 is the best f1 on the calendar you know we've hosted the game uh the games before you know they're they're really excited about they don't i don't think they think they're going to win it maybe they will but i don't think they think they're going to win it but they're they're super excited about hosting and and people come in there and then you know you've got the nations that are just football mad and you know just want to come you know come come to the game uh come to the games and um i think it's a huge you know it's a huge opportunity we were speaking with our markets in in asia so we were really hoping so one of the big markets for rexona is indonesia and indonesia were like on the cusp of you know potentially qualifying and didn't quite make it this time which is really disappointing we were we were like hoping that they would really willing them on and from a commercial perspective it would have been great but the team there's like don't worry we're still we're still all in with this because we we now as a nation will have our everyone will have their first and their second and their third team that they'll be following this so i'll be used to this this is what we do so we would have followed indonesia and then when if it went indonesia went out we'd then move to dot dot dot whoever it is you know they're going to follow the other clubs and they're very excited about the partnerships that rex owner is doing in in you know different markers with different players so endo fernandez or vinicius jr cole palmer you know these partnerships that we're doing with different players around these are all really relevant in in asia and in indonesia okay 100 days ago i can't believe it 100 days to go it's amazing it's really good and kind of circling back to where we started it's like 100 days to go to the men's tournament and then how many however many 100 days to go i didn't i didn't calculate the number but it's a few more um 100 days to go to the women's tournament but we're already you know in really good shape working on plans for that as well and i and i sort of love the fact that we're going to be able to not that i want to wish my life away but end the men's tournament and then go immediately into the kind of you know the the kind of excitement of the women's tournaments come the following year it's like a real kind of handing over of the baton from from one tournament to the next and i just think that yeah the the the opportunities for that are going to be brilliant and football we need football don't we we need we need a celebration yeah absolutely we need that 100 yeah absolutely yeah thank you very much thank you so much really enjoyed it thank you cheers