UP550 Inside Edge: IPL Auctions and the Financialization of Everything

32:06He probably doesn't care that he didn't perform that much. I mean, he would care a little bit, but goes in, performs a couple of times, justifies his cash. Old Jimmy from down the road that's playing for his local club. Yeah, one good game might be nice, but everybody else is also going. You're not consistent enough going to the twos until you're consistent enough. So there's that weird disparity again. We started off talking about the auctions. How much of it is theatre? How much of it is real, do you think? How much of it is sorted out beforehand? And how much of it actually happens in the room?

32:35because it's great watching it and you can feel the atmosphere to it. So there is a sort of jeopardy there. But how does it work really? I'm interested in how the players view it and how the sort of franchise owners look at it and what's good and bad. Just take us inside that, Gaurav, for a moment. I don't know if it's a biased opinion, but there's nothing bad about it. It really makes people like me just go crazy, think hard. It's very hard to know people's judgment of cricketers, guys. So, there's so much of opinions going. So many people have... There's so many great cricketers who have not played for the country, right?

33:22All over the world, right? You have some... It took Mike Hussey when he was 32 to play for Australia or 31 to play for Australia. Hayden started a bit... He started early, missed, then came back for his second wing much later. There's some amazing cricketers all over the world. And even in India, for that matter, there's so many cricketers who don't make it. Possibly because the selector at that point in time didn't view this player as a particular fitment to the country. In your case, it's Zach Crowley. They backed him, backed him, backed him. And they've given him... And by the blink of the eye, I'm seeing he's played 66-68 test matches.

34:01That's a long career. That's more than what 60-70 % of Indian test caps would have got. My larger point is, the eye for talent is very different. Which is what makes the auction very interesting. Who I think is a good player may not be a good player to someone else. Which is why certain teams buy certain players for cheap. Like you moneyball certain players. Like Mumbai found out about Hardik Pandya and Jaspeet Bumra at base prices. And today they are legends of Indian cricket. Right? Are you trying to tell me that seven other teams missed out on Jaspeet Bumra? Yes, they did. Because their eye for talent is very different.

34:42That's what makes the auction very interesting. Because every coach has their own likes and dislikes. Their way to judge a player. But sometimes you are not able to predict if they will make the shift from domestic cricket to suddenly playing KG Rabada. Some people get found out, some people don't. Indian batters don't play 140 plus very often in India because we don't have that many bowlers. Suddenly you are coming to the IPL and facing Mitchell Stark, it's not easy. Having said that, some players do it better than the others. So, that is the challenge. That is what keeps us all driving to identify that next big player.

35:21And that is what makes the auction very exciting and also makes it you look like a great guy or you don't look like a great guy as well. One of the questions I had, I mean, it talks to Charlie's framing of what he enjoyed about cricket was the team. And we focus on individual. The auction does that. That's what it's about. You know, it's about individual players. What about the team thing? is that as you know the sort of does team culture exist in the same way that speed up at the same rate i charlie what do you think about that because it feels like there's a there's a whole thing that we don't talk about which is we talk about individual players and we bung them in a room and they go out and play and they're individual batsmen bowlers but actually a bit that you miss and the bit that's I is about team sport so what happens to that and what is happening to that do you think or is it is that just a rose tinted version of of sport now it dies because the turnover rate's so big I mean that's just that's the simple fact of it team dynamics goes goes out the window you don't need to get on with your team anymore you don't need to play for your team um okay sort of reference my children's but one of the things I mentioned in there is about like not your spotlight one of the stories about that which is one of the biggest skills you can do in cricket is sometimes the job you're doing at your end is to help the person at the other end is to make them do better that dies with this style of cricket because it's totally inherently selfish you you don't want to work for the other person because nobody cares about that they care about your strike rate and how good you look and and that that is kind of where the framing of cricket starts to move I think the biggest thing that that can't be answered is what is this eye for talent in a game that is inherently stat-based and and a game that you cannot argue with some of the stats we find a way to argue with it we find a way to ignore them we find a way to go oh like rugby for example you can pick someone not based off stats but based on the way they they they control the 10 position or the way they maybe have a relationship with the 12 or the way that somebody else works with various other people in the team.

37:43You can argue that in cricket, less so that there are certain things that people do bloody well, and they should be lauded for doing well. When we have this eye for talent, which is completely ambiguous, and nobody knows, I can't see that being a positive for the game because I also then go okay again people growing up people that were in my position wanting to get selected maybe talking to the head coach going what do I need to do I remember having those conversations going to my head coach going what do I need to do to continue my contract to get picked for the the first team and there were some conversations we had where just keep going just keep trying you know okay but I kind of need something because if it is just this uh maybe then as a cricketer you you kind of you lose a bit of faith because you go well basically i've just got to suck up to the coach i've got to suck up the person that's paying for it i've got to i've got to try and play this fake narrative or maybe my agent's very good or there's other routes then suddenly start outweighing the talent of a player uh in terms of the culture i i would just like to step in there and argue a little bit against it.

38:54So, some things we definitely take into factor is whether this player will fit the team, will fit the culture. Because obviously, it may not be a long-term thing, but the goal is to win that particular season. The goal is to win the championship. And we'll do whatever it takes to bring the best possible team and best possible coaches. So, you do see a lot of coaches bringing players who they are comfortable with. Why? Just to answer Charlie's question that to ensure that there is a culture for those two months. Yes, it's not long term. Agreed. But at least I know I don't have to deal with A not knowing B, B not knowing C and then making them gel.

39:36And then, you know, people don't even play together that, you know, you can get run outs and all those things can happen. But I've been part of teams which have had like amazing cultures. And that is actually driven from the head coach, driven from the management, you know, where the results take care of itself. But the culture is great for those four weeks, right? I'm sure when you watch the 100 this year, you will find certain franchises trying to bring that back. Because in these four weeks, if you want to actually win the championship, you need to get the guys together. The moment you don't have that understanding like what Charlie says, then you're definitely not going to perform.

40:14So, yes, in the long run, people come in, will go out. Every year, you'll have new set of teams. But the end goal is to still win that championship. And the game has evolved like that. You have so many leagues. The goal is not to play together for one year. The goal is to play together for three weeks, four weeks and win. And people around it will try to make that work. I'm not saying it's always possible it will work, it will not work. But there's a conscious effort even at the auction to answer your original question. Do you not think that promotes jobs for the boys a little bit? like I'm slightly countering my previous point and I do believe team is important right so I I get maybe I'm being slightly hypocritical but team team is massively important but it's important in the structures of cricket in the UK because you may be like for example someone like Daniel Boldrum and I played with him at school I then kind of played with him at Kent there's there's relationships that grow through county systems so you learn to be mature and you know people well enough that you may not get on in the changing room but you know the sides of them well enough to kind of navigate it that's not the case in franchise cricket and and to kind of go back to my first point it does slightly promote I'm going to pick a load of people I like because at the end of the day they're all pretty good cricketers we're going to have a jolly doing it the golf days will be great the beers will be great we're all getting paid well wonderful and again from an athlete's perspective, someone that used to play and then somebody that was a fan growing up, come back to my original point, I think that confuses the system of what we want as a sustainable system in the country.

41:53You might be right with that, but the only challenge is if you're not good at your job, if you've not got the players to actually win out of your job. It's very cut-to-ed as well, so it works both ways. Yeah, I mean, cricket, as you've mentioned, there can be incredible players that can have bad patches. There can be very average players that can have good patches. Cricket, it's not as easy as just going, these are really good players. This will make great teams. People also get howlers. People also have things going on in their own life. There's so many things that go on. I think it's very easy to be safe.

42:29For example, I have quite a controversial opinion. I think county cricket at the moment, you can be pretty average to play county cricket. And that's coming from someone that was pretty average that played county cricket. You don't have to be that great. You have to get very lucky at the right time in the right place. And then a lot of it is about relationships after that. Where do you think the designated player rule fits in this? Like how important is that, A, to ensure some kind of team continuity and B, also to kind of build teams as brands that are recognisable from one year to the next beyond the fact they're playing in a similar kit?

43:06You want to try to do that. the goal is to achieve that but not every time you can actually go and achieve that if you don't get the results you have to move so the thing is because these are franchise cricket franchise models you're dealing with a lot of high achievers and people want to win every single time so if the model is to continue to maintain continuity and get the best out of people there are models like that the chennai model is like that they've been very successful with continuity whatever charlie says is in terms of traditional cricketing ethos. The Chennai franchise did that for over 10 years.

43:44But when the game moved on, they fell behind. So right now, I am with Charlie in a way that if you have five individual great people, if you have five people who are selfish and who want to do well for themselves, as long as the team wins, I don't care. That's an interesting insight. And so again, kind of on the other side, what do we want our fans to I think. And again, that is a big cultural difference between how the US like to be fans, how India like to be fans and how British people like to be fans. Look at why football is so good. The tribalism, the support, the undying love for a badge, for players, for personalities.

44:23That's what drives that game in the UK. As you've rightly mentioned, it's not the same in India. It's very cutthroat and people are happy being cutthroat there's almost an excitement about the cutthroat nature of it it's almost like haha you're not good enough see you later you didn't deserve it it's not the same in the UK that's not that's not a similar kind of way of thinking and it well again with the sort of I get the risk of sounding like a dinosaur it's not a case of wanting innovation it's wanting sustainable growth with innovation and I think much like many things in the world we see something and go oh my god we're gonna go right to the other end of the spectrum rather than finding actually there is probably a middle ground and what could have been done rather than going right this isn't working I'll throw it all out let's do something new it's well actually maybe we have a good basis but it does need some of the flair some of the excitement and and i've said for a long time the investment into the hundred if they had put that into the blast maybe had some reduction in teams and made the blast exciting you would have kept all the brilliance of it kept the franchise model opportunity but you'd have been having a way of actually growing it within what's already there one of the things i didn't quite understand um about the right to match aspect.

45:51And I was sort of trying to get my head around what that was and what the implications of it are. Because it seems to be unpopular with the players because it puts a sort of limit on their price. Can you just explain that to me, Gaurav? So, say, for example, I have you in my team this year, but I don't retain you. so or you say that hey my i've done really well for you you're willing to pay me x but in the market i think i'm valued at 2x so let me go into the market see what my value is and then if you feel that you want to pay me that value i'll take you you can take me so you go into the auction and then you have you actually go for 2x and then there's another team which is bid for you last and they're about to take you for 2x because you because I kind of got you first they give you a chance to excise that right take me but take Richard but take him at 2x the value so that is where I kind of have to play the right to match card and I kind of get you for that money it can work both ways I've given you the positive side but if you go into the auction you can go at half x as well so if you know if you know your previous team will match your that valuation um if when another franchise bids what so that's a sort of the competition is it's a sort of chilling effect on the price level presumably yeah sometimes uh you'll just if you want him if i want you desperately i'll just know their balance i'll know their budget i'll know what they're likely to spend and I'll just go crazy for you and I'll get you for that money.

47:36But if I feel like okay, no, he's not worth that much, I'll just give it to you, give it to someone else. So again, in a positive... Pardon? Is sport all about value of player now? It's not. As an overview, that's kind of what this conversation is boiling down to. Is it about skill? legacy, honour, inspiring the next generation, everything that sport has been for multiple decades. Is it moving now to actually screw that? It doesn't really matter what you do, go and earn your cash. I think just a slight build on that, Charlie, a lot of people come on here and talk about the sort of the shift from team to star player in terms of the, you know, the relationships.

48:23And we talked about fandom earlier and into your question about actually within the game in terms of the mechanics and the role of individuals versus the team. I think you do get a sort of momentum towards the answer to your question is yes. But I don't quite know, or we don't quite know, that feels like a sort of short-term social media-led lens. But I think you can have both. Yeah. That's what's important. I totally agree. And I'm definitely not against athlete-led kind of stars. And they are super important. and they do bring in perceived value. And sometimes sponsors will sponsor a team purely because of an individual.

49:04I mean, you definitely get that in F1. There will be people that will sponsor teams because they want the naming rights of a certain individual with their brand at some point during the year. Again, you kind of look at it from a longevity point of view. How does it balance? So, I mean, as an example, I've built, and I do know a little bit about this, I built Moonrise Sports, which is a business about the data capture and the growth of personalities. The vast majority of followers online are bots now. And people are starting to understand that actually online numbers are pie in the sky, much like an investment deck, kind of put down some numbers and hopefully people will like it.

49:44Brands are starting to realize that. I built a whole platform and got investment because actually data of fans and insight of fans is more important than just a high flying number. I have a social media page that gets 166 million views a year. It's cool, but I don't know any of them. On the point of athletes, yes, they are super important, but the money isn't the thing that makes them important. And that's the crucial aspect of all of this is we need to have athletes having something to go for, a goal, something in their line that is not just a cash amount. And a great example of that is Duckett versus Bethel in the routes they've kind of they've gone.

50:29Duckett has turned down. OK, granted, he's been paid. He's been paid. right so there's no violin out for him but he's turned down a bit of cash to go I believe for me his legacy of test cricket and being known for being a very good player is more important than having an extra zero in his bank account on the flip side and I don't know Bethel so I'm not saying this is how he's thinking but this is a perception he's gone actually I quite like the money it I can train in the nets it's fine and again that's that nuance of perception and for me that highlights maybe two players that have two different perceptions of what's important for them which isn't again not necessarily a bad thing but we come down to that argument of do we want is it good for athletes to have to want to play for their country to want to improve their stats to want to be an inspirational figure for generations to come or is it a route to just earning a lot of money.

51:28Again, just one point that the reason in my theory, the reason Ducat found it much easier to turn down the contract at Delhi is because he's getting that money from the 100 which was not there till last season. So the fact that he's got money from the 100 this year, which is a very good sum of money, he knows that financially he's still okay and he's willing to give up not one year but two years of IPL contracts because he knows the 100 is there. And again, that comes back to the fact that it's not that if Duckett was not… In my view, if maybe the 100 money was not there, I would have… I would be very curious to see how he would have taken up that decision.

52:10So it's easy to say that he's taken it for Test cricket. Fine. Fair. Give it to him. But Jacob Bethel could have also done the same thing. But for him, it's the experience of working with Virat Kohli. He feels that his game might improve 10 times more and he'll be able to earn this money in four or five years' time. Whereas Ducat is in a different phase of his life right now. So I just don't get that comparison. Yeah, I mean, we're in hypothetical land of trying to work out how people are thinking, which is never a good one. Welcome to podcasts.

52:44It's more a case of instead of trying to guess how they're thinking, let's look at the perception. and almost irrelevant of thinking, there is a clear perception of finance over legacy.

53:01Again, I'm not criticising them by doing that. Everyone can do whatever they want to do. If playing sport is just about making money, fine. But as someone that has been around the game and seen the impact it can have on next generations And again, the platform I built was based on having fans be able to book video calls with athletes, being able to watch content about them, being able to learn and be inspired because that is what the power of sport is. Without the fans, the sport is nothing. The reason the fans like the sport is because there is some connection to the athletes. And I think it needs to lean a little bit more on that legacy, that inspiration, that role model side of it than going to earn a lot of money.

53:42Yeah, you're getting to the sort of, you know, sport as entertainment question as it's evolving. And, you know, the money, the investment money wants an entertainment product, you know, whether it's the IPL or the 100 or the Premier League or whatever it is. But increasingly, that's predicated on what is the difference between sport and entertainment? You get there's a whole different podcast, but there is a difference. And the question being, OK, the continuum from Olympic wrestling to WWE and every sport is on that continuum and, you know, increasingly pushing it towards a pure entertainment format.

54:19that there's quite an interesting comparison here where i'd almost compare it to a vc firm buying like a clothing company let's say a british founded clothing company of high quality doing very well good market people are there maybe not making the profits it could make but doing okay vc fund comes in and goes sweet we'll get everything made out of china or or somewhere somewhere else where we can get it incredibly cheap the quality goes down customers aren't happy and they go well we're making a lot more profit so that's great isn't it it's like okay maybe but then you'll you'll die off and something else new will come in because that's that's the cycle of the economics of making a lot of money unless you create something sustainable it will be a flash fire really exciting and then it will dwindle and kind of coming back to the core of the point is actually with this auction being in in the uk it doesn't necessarily fit the market in terms of the uk market it absolutely fits other areas which is what they're interested in because they're trying to make that spectacle go into the other areas where they can go to brands and say hey i'd like another zero on that because we're getting eyeballs in other areas but i come back to the point of sustainability is that the right thing for the growth and that when we come kind of on the conversation of ECB and RFU and these governing bodies, their sole purpose should be on sustainability and grassroots.

55:45Because if it's without that, they're just a startup or a VC firm trying to earn as much money as possible. Yeah, I think what is most compelling out of everything is when people are doing the sport at the highest level that they can. The thing that excites me about the auctions is not the entertainment angle necessarily, but this idea that it gives teams another tool to use to kind of develop their idea of expertise. I'd kind of like to hear just last from Gaurav on how the extent to which he thinks that IPL teams have got better at identifying talent needs as a result that leads to a higher quality of 2020 cricket and that I find really interesting and exciting but do you concur with that?

56:34100%. I think IPL scouts are far superior than your international scouts or your international selectors. Today, in India, one of the best ways to get into the Indian team is via the IPL. You will get the odd person from the first-class circuit. But state teams, state leagues, everywhere, any match which is being played, you will find an IPL scout there. So you're absolutely right. I think they're more evolved. They have the bandwidth, they have the money, they have the goal. And it's very hard to match from an international board. Surprising, but that's the fact. so if we just quickly on that if we use that as a as a idea if we do directly compare the IPL and the 100 let's say in 10 years time the 100 becomes the same as the IPL it's the funnel it's the thing you want to get to to get noticed to get into a test team which doesn't really work with 100 into a test team but anyway let's say that happens what is the pathway in the UK which is already broken at the moment with its system it had but what is the pathway then the pathway would be definitely be really good at uh short form white white ball cricket and try to get yourself first 100 be uh so you will have feeder tournaments into the 100 in this in this case it's the blast for now but the blast quality is something we'll have to wait and watch because the 100 quality will be far superior than the blast quality.

58:09So, in terms of as a scout, I will have to see whether these guys will be able to actually live up to the higher level. So, you might find feeder tournaments happening within each county. Like for example, I will find maybe a slightly second division good spinner from UK playing in second division. and I'll try to take him directly to the 100 rather than him playing the blast and then coming. If somebody can bowl really quick at a lower level, I would kind of bypass the blast, bypass first-class quicker and come to 100. And that would be the... Obviously, he'll catch an eye with the selectors and they might fast track him to the England team.

58:52So, that's literally what's happening in India. So, I expect that to happen. And that's the part way. But much more focused on luck then than prolonged skill. But there is skill, right, Charlie? To get whatever skill he has, that's what has caught the eye, right? Let me give you an example. So I got my county contract because I was bowling in the ICC Champions Trophy against Sri Lanka and West Indies and New Zealand and England in the nets at Edgbaston. And Shemendavas and Graham Ford were the coaches at the time, saw me like me. The Sri Lankan players asked me to come back the next morning to bowl at them before the game.

59:28and then the very next day, Graham Ford texts the coach of Kent at the time and said, hey, this guy's quite good. Do you want to give him a trial? I got the trial and got the contract. Pure luck. I wasn't necessarily looking at getting a counter contract. That is pure luck. That is a very unique scenario, but that to me doesn't highlight the best talent we've got in the country. That then makes it into this scenario where, which it works in India because there are so many people. you can't possibly pick the best 11 players in India. You can't. And I think everyone would probably accept that. It's similar to F1.

1:00:03I would argue there are some very, very talented people that could be good drivers. They just don't have millions of pounds they can spend every year. If the 100 ends up being the IPL of the UK, I hear what you're saying, but longevity and as a process to getting into countercricut, as a player growing up or if I was advising someone, what the hell do you advise them to do? This is where the system is under strain, as we've talked about the fact that they will become increasingly different things, and it will be increasingly difficult to build a pathway that works in both ways. What Gaurav's suggesting is that 100 works really well.

1:00:41You build out the architecture to find more good 100 players earlier, which creates more opportunities in feeder competitions. But those people are not going to be the people that you're talking about, Charlie, that are going to be populating first-class leagues, they're different people. Like, this is... If the 100 goes this route and becomes this successful, and... So what's the point in counting cricket, then? That's a separate thing. That's a whole separate situation. No, no, no, they're together. They're absolutely together. You can't... The same question is being asked in India as well. What's the point of first-class cricket?

1:01:16Because you play six tests a year, the leading run-getter of all the domestic tournaments has not played for India in the last three years. But again, not comparable because India has millions, millions of people. You can't logically look at Indian stats of state-level people playing domestically in India and go, oh, we'll pick the people with the best stats. Mental. You'd get 5 ,000 people in a room and you then can't pick it. It is impossible. The UK is different. You look at first class and second class, you maybe can differentiate between pitches and places and people that have played against.

1:01:53And you can look at certain teams that have maybe put out not so good sides against certain people that have got hundreds and you can evaluate things. But I could do an evaluation of a county's stats from last season within a week. You'd look at it and you'd be able to evaluate some players and then you make decisions based off personalities. They are the same because if you try and build the hundred as this spectacle and ignore the recreational side of it, then you will just end up burning that and then finding some system to work similar in a business that if you just think about distribution distribution distribution and you ignore all the fundamentals of of customer service and things that sit below that you're gonna die because you've built no you've built no longevity you've built no system or feeder that people can be excited about you've just built something to earn a lot of money and and that that's the crux of it.

1:02:45They are connected. It's very exciting having money come in, but I do think it involves a step back to go, yeah, let's not just say it's a startup, let's burn a load of money. Let's actually look at it and go, what happens if it goes wrong? I just think that, sorry, I just think that two different career paths, I don't think it's the same. I think if I want to be a T20 white ball 100 cricketer, my career path from a young age would be completely different. If I want to be a first-class cricketer, play for England, represent England for 100 tests, my career path will be very different. If you say that I have to do well at both, great.

1:03:21If you're really skilled, go for it. But if you think you can't, focus on one and move on. I think that's the way it will go. Why would a child care about Red Bull cricket? Why would a parent want their child to care about Red Bull cricket? I think the Joe Root, Virat Kohli, Kane Williamson version of this is that if the best players in the world prioritise test cricket, then it will, you know, that it answers your question. A child looks at Joe Root and says, I want to be Joe Root. He's out there in white playing in, you know, a game that is fundamentally different. And I think it is the dilemma.

1:03:59I do, you know, it is the dilemma of the sort of success of 2020. It comes with the question, and we come back to a lot on this podcast about the ecosystem argument about how you protect the ecosystem and you you're exactly right charlie about the governing you know national governing bodies there's a governing bit in the middle there which is really hugely important and governance is long-term thinking protection of the game you know and the bet that is being taken not just in cricket but across the board is make create a compelling sport entertainment product and then monetize that for the ecosystem that's the point now you can see a future where private equity doesn't give a toss about the ecosystem it just me it needs a return over a period of time so if and sovereign wealth it's these are different forms of money and the the big sport business question of the moment is does the money fit sport or does it fit the ecosystem is it the right type of money that is sustaining this so if once you start to sell franchises and you start to sell franchises to groups that are um you know they're not it could be cricket but it's tomorrow they'll have a meeting about something else it's it's completely detached and i think once you make that decision the governance bit becomes incredibly important because all of the questions that we're talking about are in the hands of the people at the cricket boards you know and the rugby boards in the football league the football associations all of these things that we all care about the pyramid it's it's so easy just to cut it off quite often the question on here is what does the money want and it's normally more money is the answer yeah i mean on that the one thing is you we do have to commend the ECB for is that sport are very good at copying.

1:05:58Like we've spoken a lot about the NFL and the IPL and the auction. And it's the same with football teams going, we need to do a Wrexham. No, you don't. Wrexham did a Wrexham because it worked. It worked. It was unique. It was new. It was exciting. Drive to survive worked because it was new. It was exciting. It was something that people hadn't seen before. Then rugby tried to do the same and it absolutely fell on its knees because people just tried to copy. And that never works. People just go, oh, that works. Let me just plug that in. The one thing we have to commend the ECB for, whether it's right or wrong, and that's, again, probably another podcast, but the introduction of the 100 was new, was different.

1:06:34And, yeah, the argument of exciting and longevity is a different one, but you have to commend them for not copying. But it is a bit more nuanced than just kind of let's build something new and it will work. you come back to the ecosystem there isn't one if we are just going to copy the IPL Okay listen, we'll get you back on we've only just started this conversation Brilliant, thanks a lot for coming on Gaurav, Charlie, really appreciate your time and Mike as ever, see you on the next one Thank you guys