UP567 Spin Class: Infantino's fightback; Saudi post-LIV; AJ v Tyson, Hearn v White

25:18Jon Tibbs OBE:And so we go back to the very beginning, which is in the next six or seven months, he's got a war chest, a massive war chest to get the hundred. And he'll be hoping for a very healthy majority over 106. But he's got a very significant war chest that within the constitution of FIFA, He will be allowed or FIFA will be allowed to disperse in accordance with the Constitution. And as long as that is not, there is no infringement there, then that's going to be extremely hard to beat. Yeah, yeah. My favourite quote, we'll move on, but my favourite quote was Sepp Blatter. No one has the right to sell our game, which I thought was absolutely perfect.

26:04Jon Tibbs OBE:Right. OK, now let's talk about Live Golf, because, again, there are some themes and people will have seen headlines. But again, this is a story almost from the word go, which has been played out in comms narrative terms. So I really want to get your view on this. And you've both been following this, I know, since the beginning. So Live Golf and the numbers are astonishing. the public numbers these all come from live golf limited the uk registered entity covering the non-us operation so seven of the 14 events in 2024 25 held in australia hong kong mexico saudi arabia singapore spain and the uk and you've got a separate business live golf inc west palm beach and new york and those are private and files nothing public so the losses in 22 were 243 million 2023 395 million 2024 461 million so the cumulative losses for this one entity this is outside of the US exceed 1.4 billion and then recently in the recent news story is that PIF have cut the funding and this last weekend we've seen what might be the final live event so So, Henry, you've got these camps, you've got the Liv camp, initially Greg Norman, then he went and then you had Rory as a sort of front person for the official side.

27:36Jon Tibbs OBE:And then that's gone slightly in a different way. Just talk to me about what you see when you look at Liv, the comms angle to it.

27:44Henry Chappell:I don't think I've ridden the one of that, to be honest with you. I think it is obviously going to be difficult when you're starting out and trying to set up a direct competitor and go head to head. And I think they felt they needed to do that. But maybe they didn't. And they could have gone around this in a different way from the outset. and they could, I believe that would have given them a far greater chance of creating something that could have succeeded with their original investors in place. Because let's be honest, they're not going to get anyone better to invest in it than PIF, anyone with deeper pockets, anyone with a more longer term view.

28:28Henry Chappell:And they've blown that through what's happened. And to have burnt through that cash so quickly and to have seen a dream investor walk away is now terrible for the game of golf. And all they set out to do, supposedly, was to grow the game of golf and to make it better. And obviously, there's no doubt about it. Personal agendas and macho male personal years of rivalries and came to the fore. And it was completely unbridled and unrestrained and just very unseemly in that regard. Now, there are some positives that have come from it. You can look at, and if you listen to Scott O 'Neill, who is an excellent communicator, by the way, and is trying to keep the flame alight.

29:19Henry Chappell:And you see the press conference he gave at the weekend, the weekend before last, which is on YouTube, is worth watching. He's a very passionate case for some of the positives that Liv has achieved. And it has also made the PGA Tour look at its own product and look at different ways of doing things that over time make it a sharper, better product too. So in that regard, the competition has been good. And there's no doubt about it. It's been fantastic for golfers and caddies and golf agents, anyone on the playing side financially, but never really was the consumer audience, the fans' interests really at the heart of this.

30:00Henry Chappell:This is not something that they brought to market, having said that we have researched and worked and undertaken insights on what audiences around the world would like to see differently. And we're creating a product to match that consumer demand that was never even thought of in any way. And only now are they starting to try and sort of change the dialogue around that. And this is obviously lived sort of final days where we don't know, but whether they will manage to find new backers to continue beyond here, we'll find out in the coming weeks and months. But they are up against the clock and it's unlikely.

30:41But only now, you know, are they

30:44Henry Chappell:talking in those terms a bit more and trying to, you know, I noticed the phraseology has gone from complete, not compete, is the catchphrase Scott O 'Neill keeps saying, which is they're trying to kind of create a new entity which completes the Gulf ecosystem with a tangential product that can augment the other tours and other events that are going on. And now they're trying to say they can fit into there. And that's how they're trying to explain their existence. But it's a shame that It's taken sort of desperate times for them to do that. But the final point is, even now, as they're sort of down on their knees, Rory couldn't help giving them a kick.

31:28Henry Chappell:And I noticed Scotty Scheffler's comments were far more graceful and diplomatic. Rory had a snidey comment around not sure anyone on the Live Tour adds any value, which is a bit disingenuous. and to his Ryder Cup teammates, I think just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And I don't think it's been in any way really a positive for golf, the way that the communications battle has unfolded.

31:53Jon Tibbs OBE:John, just give us your sort of starting point on Liv. Well, I mentioned on the previous topic that greed could be a red thread through all three topics today. And it could be. But in fact, there's another red thread between the first topic, FIFA, and this one, which is both are quite conservative with a small C organizations. The PGA Tour and FIFA are quite conservative organizations and the family around them. And when you start bringing in a third party that's going to sort of change the dynamics of this quite conservative institution, it does create sort of all sorts of ructions and waves.

32:35Jon Tibbs OBE:And we're seeing two different versions of it in the two topics. For me, I think it's a really good example, if you're going to take, because this is called Spin Class, a really good example of an organization absolutely not being on their A game for PR from beginning to end. I think the PR around Lib, their institutional business-to-business PR, and their business-to-consumer PR has been very poor. I think they could have really done a lot better, particularly in their issues management, in preparing for some of the things that were inevitably going to be coming down the line, like this, for example.

33:16Jon Tibbs OBE:And this morning I heard Bryson DeChambeau saying, watch this space, there's going to be some great news for Liv with some really innovative twists coming in the next few days. so that they are wheeling out the players still to do their front PR to try and keep it alive and keep the hope alive but I do think overall their institutional PR and i.e business to business PR sports industry PR has not been anywhere near as good as it should have been for an organization of such value. Okay so there's a question about the the disruptor because again this is the big case study that everyone references about okay a new thing coming in like you say they are both conservative organizations if you are the sort of money from the outside that is where they want to go isn't it they can see that that's a weakness and if we attack that and broaden the audience it goes away from the golf club traditional sort of cliches and into out there in the real world And is there a market for golf that is broader than that?

34:24Jon Tibbs OBE:And yes, there is. So I don't know where I stand. And I don't know there are many heroes in this story because no one wants to be a fuddy-duddy golf club bore. And actually, I didn't like the disruption either. so you sort of find yourself a bit homeless in this question and one of the bits was what it says about the marketplace very slow lethargic quite complacent organizations that are running sport and still are to a large degree you get the money coming in and saying oh that's a that's an angle for us we can blow that up and actually it's much more difficult than that assumed in most cases and i just wonder what it means about the the market for sport it's really tied to a very

35:10Henry Chappell:traditional view of the world well the ecb have come in and done the job with a new product with the hundred and you could argue that has been a success that reached the success of them being able to auction off the franchises as they had hoped and obviously i think we're a bit early

35:29Jon Tibbs OBE:about crowning the 100 a success, if I'm completely honest.

35:32Henry Chappell:Yeah, I think this season has been more challenging, but it shows you, and also it has had consequences, hasn't it, on its impact on other forms of the game, undoubtedly, because you've had to move things around. So there's only so much...

35:44Jon Tibbs OBE:It's still under their governance as well. So it's slightly different in that regard. It is a new product, but it's under their governance as opposed to Liv coming in. Yeah, which is sort of what Infantino's argument would be.

35:56Henry Chappell:Yeah. Yeah. But I wouldn't just stop at Live. I think, OK, to substantiate your point further, TGL has not been a flying success yet. And a lot has been invested in that. And obviously you've had Rory and Tiger and others playing in it. And, you know, that's much more differentiated from Live because obviously it's simulator golf, it's indoors, and it's trying to reach a definitely much younger audience at a different time of day with scheduled at nighttime in the States. and after the initial interest, it's definitely got some challenges. Obviously, they're moving forward with the Women's League and they're continuing to see if they can make it work, but it's not easy.

36:33Henry Chappell:So definitely new formats don't just drop because you're competing for attention across so many different forms of entertainment, not just in sport. You're competing, the audience you're trying to reach, the younger audience are gaming, they're watching, they're streaming, They're playing paddle. They're socializing. They're seeking experiences. They should have really thought about it. The PGA Tour shouldn't have been their competition. They should have been trying to create something that's competing with other forms of entertainment for the younger audience they're trying to reach. Because the PGA Tour, ordinarily, standard PGA Tour events, does have a very old audience.

37:12Henry Chappell:And that was the point of it. And because they're very conservative, there's never one more conservative than the PGA Tour, and they're very traditionalist. and you see it even with the Waste Management Open where they've got something that's amazing and the stadium hole there at the 17th, which I've been fortunate enough to be at. They're trying to shut that down and calm it down because it's not in keeping with their values. And that's obviously what Liv have tried to recreate because that does appeal to a younger audience. So I think, yeah, it's starting up new formats in sport is not easy.

37:46Henry Chappell:It's not a short-term thing. It needs serious long-term investment and planning. Even you can see it with Baller League, which is a new format in soccer, which has had some immediate success, but Sky have just dropped it now. Whether that matters for them or not, probably not, because they're going a slightly different way. But once you have some initial success, the challenges do come. Liv had a lot of initial noise without some successes in some markets where they went to, but obviously the economics were never working and the entry price they were paying to secure the talent just made the whole thing economically unviable, didn't it?

38:22Jon Tibbs OBE:The pink trousers of Ian Poulter five, six years ago may have been an attraction to go and see him. And then when you find out that he's on however many, 10 million plus, plus, plus per appearance, it suddenly perhaps becomes a little less attractive to see him. But for me, new formats is not the issue. It's new formats, different governance. And that's really hard to break in, really hard to break into the traditional sports model, which you're alluding to, Richard. New products is desperately needed across all sports. And as Henry's just said, it's that's hard enough. But to say we're coming in as a new governing body, if you like, to, OK, maybe underneath the RNA, but they are still positioning themselves as a new sort of rights holder out of the control of the US PGA and the European PGA.

39:17Jon Tibbs OBE:And that was going to be always and remains, if they're going to come back, that remains a major challenge. And the only other thing I would add to what Henry's saying is that the golf boom in the UK with young people at the moment, and it is everywhere you go, every driving range where they've got a screen, golf is on the rise with young people in the UK. It's not because of the Live Tour. And it's not really because of the USPGA Tour. It happened post-COVID. No one can really put their finger on how and why it happened. But it's and Bryson had a lot to do. I think you're right. You get to the creator question, because I think creator over traditional broadcasters.

39:59Jon Tibbs OBE:And again, this golf, I think, is one of the best case studies that that argument has. Bryson being a good example, a very rare example, really, I think, of a player creator who's balanced those things out. and it takes enormous amounts of money, but also it takes not a very busy sports person. When you look at these athletes, Olympic athletes, they are training all day, every day, and then expected to be creators as well. Good luck with that. There's an ecosystem around golf, which has evolved then from bar store and all of that language around the sport has been part of that answer. And I agree with you that the product, the tour product is deeply flawed and it remains deeply flawed as a as a sort of entity i got one question before we move on is where we are with sports washing because again live golf from a comms perspective initially and throughout it was very focused and very central and it was the sort of big sports washing question and we've all had our views over the years about okay what is sports washing what do we mean by it and the question is where are we now in that debate and because we'll move on in a minute to boxing and the Saudi money's not gone away it's under pinning the whole sport in boxing so the Saudi money's still there you guys on the agency side will have seen lots of your competitors going into Riyadh and to Jeddah and opening up offices and seeing that as a gold rush from maybe two years ago and we had loads of conversations on the podcast where people say okay well this is where the bank is now we need to be there where are we now do you think in that whole story well i'll declare an interest here because we do have clients in saudi so i'm going to give a slightly different perspective on your a very good question is what was very apparent from live from the start again going back to pr and we're in the spin class here how poorly prepared they were for all of that how poorly prepared greg norman and all the players were for the inevitable onslaught of questions on all of that that were going to come their way and sometimes people um they don't understand the industry that henry and and i are in but never was there a need for for them to have had much better preparation and coaching and guidance in anticipation of all of that at the very beginning and it's never really gone away as a result of not being well prepared of not having a plan not even having a proper issues management plan right from the get-go it just it just seemed to be absent and the flippant way in which the athletes the golfers were handling some of those questions at the very beginning of it was really poor and i'm not a big fan of the expression sports washing and and all of that but i know it's there so therefore i make sure that any client that is going to be potentially subject to that as a as a media line of questioning that they're really well prepared with it with the truth and the and the the way to robust it and to handle it and and to come out stronger as a result of the line of questioning and and that that would be my initial response to that henry i I agree.

43:26Henry Chappell:I've nothing further to add, I don't think, on that. Do you have Saudi clients? No, we don't do any work in the Middle East, to be honest here. We've never really ventured that way. Most of our international work has been Europe and the US, so hence why I can't add any further to what John's saying.

43:46Jon Tibbs OBE:Just on the agency thing, do you think that is still the direction of travel, Or do you think actually, no, the gas has gone out of that, no pun intended?

43:57Henry Chappell:Well, I think because of what's happened geopolitically, there's obviously been, you know, the whole region has got a question. That's what I've heard from other colleagues who have got serious operations there in the region. And there's a degree of uncertainty with what the future might hold. Yeah, definitely. But I think the Saudis' desire to diversify and to invest in things broader than historic industries has not gone away. And regarding golf, they're still investing in golf domestically and are doing a significant investment in golf tourism, developing resorts and venues and locations. And so they changed their strategy in that regard from spending their money on Bryson DeChambeau and Phil Mickelson and into creating their own courses and what have you.

44:48Henry Chappell:And I think they've hired some pretty significant people in the industry to help them in that endeavor. And that's the direction of travel they've gone there. I think with boxing, it can, and maybe we'll move on to talk about that now, and obviously it's been successful for them because they've been able to stage a significant number of events in Riyadh and promote Riyadh as a destination through the vehicle of boxing more easily and what have you. And obviously they're invested in Newcastle and that's restrained because of the FFP rules of the Premier League and UEFA, not because of any desire to invest more.

45:25Henry Chappell:So it's hard to know whether they would have unleashed a significant more funding if they'd been able to within football. But we'll talk about Seller, I'm sure, in a sec, because obviously they seem to have been involved in almost everything and everything. But it's new and upcoming. And that's another vehicle for Saudi funding. And clearly they've got a significant role, but they're playing in the potential AJ Fury fight. and so you know piff and saudis investment and appetite for sport as far as i can tell has not gone away or going away in any way shape or form it's just they're learning from things and it's it's showing up and it's turning up in different different ways different guises well just look

46:06Jon Tibbs OBE:east on the border from saudi and you've got qatar who are all in for 2036 uh olympic games following the significant success, in my belief, of their FIFA World Cup. So I don't think it's going away anytime soon. They've got a little regional hiccup to deal with the Iran-US war, if you want to call it that at the moment. But once that's dealt with, then I think you'll see they will be coming out in an ever-increasing amount of effort to secure major events again throughout the region. It's a conversation we had, actually, funny enough, with Miltown, who were mentioned earlier, but about how we label money, the sort of, so Saudi money versus American money in sports investment terms comes, both terms are quite loaded.

46:55Jon Tibbs OBE:And when it moves into the sort of public realm of back page sports, it's easily sort of framed one way or the other. So it's quite, I think that area of where the money is coming from, as we talk all day, every day about private equity and the sort of new money coming into sport, actually where the source of the money and what that means for the sports rights holders and how it impacts the sort of executive decision-making process, I think is quite an interesting question. But let's just develop onto boxing. Set us up, Henry, because this is a story. So it's AJ versus Fury. We've got a whole cast of characters of Eddie Hearn, Dana White, Turkey Alashik.

47:38Jon Tibbs OBE:Just talk to me about this, because this fight has been on and off several times. I think Fury has retired five times, I think, in the last sort of few years. So just bring us up to date and then we'll get into what's actually happening because I think there's some really interesting little themes beneath it.

47:55Henry Chappell:Yeah, well, you're right because I think what's paying out is a bit of a power battle for who's really controlling boxing these days and where it's going. And you're right, this fight has been on the cards for probably 10 years. But at the moment, the money is on that it's going to be taking place at the end of November at Madison Square Gardens in New York. But the issue is, is that by having it in New York with some tax implications for AJ, and it's different from what they had provisionally envisaged. And therefore, Eddie Hearn is trying to ensure that the deal represents the tax implications for AJ and other costs that are going to be incurred.

48:38Henry Chappell:Fury is positioning that he doesn't really want to fight him and he's afraid and he's running away and he's a greedy bastard and he just wants more money which Fury will always do because again he's an excellent communicator and he knows how to get everyone going and he's saying well I'm out so again it just creates more interest in the fight so it's why it's in everyone's interest perhaps compared to golf where it's not in everyone's interest that they're all throwing mud at each They're in boxing. That's the name of the game. But the reason it's happening in this stage, rather than 90 ,000 people at Wembley, where invariably there would be much far higher ticket sales in the UK market, is because it's on Netflix.

49:18Henry Chappell:And Netflix want it in the US because they want to position this as a global sports event, not a British event. And because clearly they've got global subscribers around the world. And the investment they're making in the fight in boxing is for global, global events. And Seller, who are also a key player in this and are basically financing the fight, are also aligned with Netflix on that and determined that the fight does take place in New York. Now, the one other person in the mix, as you say, is that Dana White and TKO is using this as an opportunity to uplift his influence at the head of the game of boxing and has claimed that he's been crucial to getting the deals done both with Netflix and with the fighters and has made it happen and is trying to undermine Eddie Hearn and Mattram and their involvement in it.

50:11Henry Chappell:And so you've got this subplot on here where you've got Scott Fury versus AJ, you've got Dana versus Eddie Hearn, and you've got, this is a big test case for the Netflix model and Netflix's potential further forays into live sport and what have you and showing you the importance of staging these events in the states and how that unlocks the biggest market in the world in so doing so yeah it's the kind of future of the sports industry in some respects is sort of maybe being played out a little bit through the microcosm of this this fight which will be the biggest sports event on the calendar for the rest of the year, I think.

50:55Jon Tibbs OBE:John? I love the story, not just because I'm in the industry. I just think it's great theatre. It makes for good new reading as opposed to just build up and training, preparing for a fight. So I think the story, the purists, the boxing purists are wringing their hands saying, oh, this is all about why the fight cannot be made instead of talking about the fight itself. Well, at least they're talking about it. It's out there. It's been talked about. And the more protagonists in this PR battle that you introduced there at the beginning, Richard, the better it is to keep this alive. And I think it just adds to the theatre of it all.

51:33Jon Tibbs OBE:And it seems to work for boxing. It wouldn't work as well for many, if any, other sports, but it seems to work really well for boxing. The challenge for AJ and Hearn, the PR challenge for AJ and Hearn, is they've got to be on the right side of the British public for this. And so far, they seem to have got their story out there that we are doing what's best for the British boxing fans. We're trying to do what's best for them. And that seems to have been handled fairly well. But AJ's got to be careful because obviously he's had a rough time recently with the bereavements he suffered. And he's got to get this absolutely right.

52:11Jon Tibbs OBE:So I think the next few weeks, possibly month, is going to be really critical in their PR battle to come out on the right side of this. Because I think Fury's probably just edging ahead in terms of the PR bucket.

52:23Henry Chappell:One of the points to make on that, just to say, is obviously in their favour, it being on Netflix rather than a pay-per-view event, you know, does help. Because if this was being broadcast at 2am and you were being charged£40 as a pay-per-view and no British fans really had the chance to go and watch it because it's over there, then that can create a lot of animosity towards that. But because it obviously comes with your Netflix package that most people have anyway in this country, it's in effect, it's sort of free to view, isn't it, in that regard. And so I'm sure they'll be able to play that positive.

53:00Henry Chappell:But it will be an England v. Mexico number, won't it? It's going to be up at 3 a.m. or staying up all night for it. It's not going to be played out at prime time for us over here, which will be an issue. But yeah, I think the only issue for AJ is if the fight doesn't happen, you know, I think then he will come out of it better. So I think it's inevitable the fight's going to happen. I think it is. I think this is just, they're negotiating here. And if it's not going to happen, they wouldn't be sort of negotiating. And in this, the fact we're all talking about it now, it's on the agenda. And we've still got three months to go until the fight happens.

53:38Henry Chappell:There we go.

53:39Jon Tibbs OBE:John, you said there it wouldn't work in other sports. I sort of was thinking, actually, boxing has always been like this, Don King days. Lots of other sports have sort of moved towards this framing. The comms around it, very primary colours.

53:55Henry Chappell:You could argue PGA Tour versus Liv was this. You know, I mean, that's what we've just been talking about.

54:01Jon Tibbs OBE:Yeah, yeah. I mean, you see that even in golf, you get the sort of Netflix match-ups which are always not very good. It was Mickelson and Wins and the one-off games. And there's a sort of attempt to add a bit of beef into the whole thing, whether that's confected or real. But boxing is very good at it. But it is interesting, as you say, that the sort of Saudi money seller is underpinning all of it. So it's almost like a theatre that sits below the money. Saudi is owning the thing. And then you've got the sort of boxing promoters doing their thing. I saw her just on a clip this morning, again, arguing about AJ's tax situation, which is quite hard to make sexy.

54:46Jon Tibbs OBE:But all of that noise has always happened and it's sort of part of the game. From a public relations perspective, you listed all the actors involved at the beginning of this segment, Richard. It's going to be very interesting to do a sort of a PR league table of those actors. I mean, I just jotted them down whilst you were talking. so you've got the Joshua Hun PR score so far and what would it end up? Fury's PR score, you've got the Netflix TKO one, you've got the UFC Dana White one, there are other parties as well involved in all of this and it's just going to be really interesting from a PR perspective is to sort of see, try and guess what their overall objectives were and how they're communicating against those objectives and the one you haven't listed is Saudi so the bit I don't quite get in this story is is the credit that we're expected to sort of shift back to sad and they are paying for everything but yeah reputationally is this doing I never link this to Saudi in the same way as I did with live or Newcastle or those types of stories this is this feels like a sort of slightly different idea but it's still the money is still enormous and it's still being paid by from that country but i don't quite see how i'm attributing

56:11Henry Chappell:credit or blame to it it's a bit distant but what but it's funny that because live wouldn't have

56:17Jon Tibbs OBE:happened without the piff funding no and i don't think this fight would be happening without

56:22Henry Chappell:the saudi funding no it's exactly the same it's just coming in a different guide but the saudi

56:29Jon Tibbs OBE:money was really central to the live breakaway now whether that was to do with the initial comms around it and the the position the pga tour went very aggressively about 9 11 and they started to incite all of that which is sort of ancient history now and john referenced the press conferences of the players i remember westwood and poulter being up on stage and it was an absolute shocker yeah all of that put saudi and human rights almost like a sort of every time you mention saudi the phrase human rights came alongside it like a naming right and i always wondered whether or not this is working or not because actually are you just flagging this and it's just you're bringing that in or or over time i sit here in august 2026 and i think back to how i thought about saudi in 2022 and i wonder if i've shifted and changed my mind and whether i've got a more nuanced view of the region and the country and i'm making less binary types of views on it and lots of people have been over there that i know and they've come back and said yeah you should try it's a proper country it's a proper there's a football culture there all of these things and i sometimes wonder i don't know has it worked or not i don't know well i don't think it's just there to

57:43Henry Chappell:try and promote or change your view of saudi to try and get you to travel there the i think the most important factor in their decision to do this was to diversify their assets and what they've invested in and so that they wanted to have a stake in golf at the senior level they before they got into live did live they tried to invest in the pga tour and that wasn't open to them so they they felt a good strategy was to invest and create their own global league that they would have been have the ownership of in perpetuity it has obviously hasn't worked out so that has spectacularly failed but similarly with boxing they want they want us to have a seat at the head of the game to be in control of it so that they can that they can diversify their investments but as well as benefiting from bringing people to the region and having events that take place there so i think in it's hard to it's a long long-term place i think it's something you need to look at over many years rather than now yes it's some individual investments they've made have spectacularly gone wrong but i think overall it probably will work because that's a similar model to in respect to what's happened in abu dhabi and with dubai and other parts of the region where they have actually transformed themselves through investments in uh across sports but also into other industries and enterprises and and i and i think that's that's what's taking place but

59:11Jon Tibbs OBE:you need to measure it over many years richard i i do think you should you say you've not been to Saudi that's right then please come as my guest at some stage because you really will be I think judging from from the way you spoke just now I think you really will be surprised the Saudi that you see in 2026 compared to the perceptions you have of perhaps 10 years ago or 15 20 years ago it is night and day and it's changing so fast every quarter there's just yet more fundamental changes in a sort of the direction of trouble, I guess, in the West, people would want it to go in, but it's happening at a ferocious pace.

59:55Jon Tibbs OBE:So to a certain extent, there is, yes, a knock-on effect, a positive knock-on effect, that if they keep going and keep going with this, eventually, the cynics, the brickbats will give in and they'll just say, okay, well, let's see it for ourselves and report on what we're seeing from the change. So there is a knock-on effect, in my opinion, to what you say, a beneficial one. Right. Okay. Let's call a halt. Thank you very much, Spin Class. Thanks a lot for your input, and we'll move on. I'll see you on the next one.

1:00:40Thank you.