UP572 Creators: What Are They Good For?

0:00It blows my mind. Hello, Richard Gillis here. Welcome to Unofficial Partner, the Sports Business Conversation. That was Lisa Parfitt. We'll get into what blows her mind and why in a minute. It's a conversation about creators, influencers. Has Wimbledon really banned them? And what really happened at the US Open? And what does that mean for the money that's flowing from what would be traditional marketing channels into the creator economy? me? What does it mean for events? Using creators to try and bring in new audiences, find new audiences sometimes. And for brands who want to break out of the clutter and rent the audience that the creators have on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and every other social channel.

0:44So loads in it that will resonate with our audience far and wide. Our guests are Joe Tung, Chief Executive of Tongue Tide Media, a sports agency specialising in talent management and production. Her client list runs across current and former athletes, broadcasters and content creators. She started out as a sports reporter at the BBC before moving into radio and television, working on programmes including Fighting Talk and BBC One's Inside Sport and spent a decade as editor of 606 Five Live's flagship football phone-in. She's an FA registered agent, a director and board member of Women in Football and has been a trustee of the Jason Roberts and Michael Carrick Foundations.

1:29Lisa Parfit, who you just heard, is co-founder of The Space Between, a sport and entertainment marketing agency for Challenger Brands, which she launched in 2021 with Tom Gladstone and Adam Raincott. The three first worked together as the management team at the sponsorship agency Synergy. This work includes the ECB's Women's Cricket Campaigns, ClearScore's FA Cup Partnership, and the UK launch of FIFA's Women's Champions Cup. She's a regular in PR Week's Power Book for Sport. I appeared in that once. That's how old I am. Anyway, enough about me, and let's talk about creators with two people who know their stuff, Joe Tong and Lisa Parfit.

2:14So, I want to start, I do a little preamble, as you know, beforehand, so we say who you are, but I think it'd just be quite useful in this instance, because there's a couple of things that I thought about when I was sort of trying to set this up. And one of them was about the story and how the story has got out. And there was a headline that is quite alluring, but I think is probably wrong, which is sort of Wimbledon bands creators. I don't think has happened, and we'll get into what actually has happened. but I think it'd be useful for the audience just to frame both of you so Jo can you start and just give us a bit of what you do all day what's the day job for you and then I'll ask the same question of Lisa of course so my day job is representing clients be they current athletes former athletes broadcasters content creators so the day is spent proactively finding work for said clients, doing contracts, liaising with brands, broadcasters, stakeholders, to make sure that all of my clients are well equipped to go to work as and when we secure that work for them.

3:24Brilliant. A few things I'll come back on. Lisa, same question. I don't have a dissimilar day job, but the majority of what I'm doing is I'm doing all of that, but I'm doing it on the behalf of the brands. So I guess technically, Joe and I will sit on either side of the table when we're in conversations about talent but effectively I'm looking at the marketing strategy for brands most of whom are partners and have sponsorships in sport some are endemic brands under armour so that is kind of quite pure kind of talent pure marketing job for them and some of it's for rights holders and most of the cases the rights holders it's publicity, it's PR, it's selling tickets, selling and enhancing their brand to reach new audiences.

4:15Yeah. Okay. So we've got, it's not by accident that we asked you, two particular points of view. So I'm really interested in just pursuing this question because there's loads of bits to it. And as I say, let's use the Wimbledon story as a news hook. So we've just come out of a few weeks where if you go by headlines and if you're looking at the top of the story you say right the US Open there were these moments there were ring lights there were people in the crowd doing stuff influencer type creator type stuff in the in the audience in the hospitality areas the players got knocked by it or they were irritated by it and there's a whole sort of conversation going on not a new conversation particularly but it was it was a thing and US Open had invested a lot in creators as a marketing channel so So that was one thing.

5:00And then reasonably quickly afterwards, we had a headline. It was a PA story, which then got taken up with various headlines. But the PA story was essentially Wimbledon told the Press Association it won't create a dedicated influencer creator accreditation category. It will confiscate disruptive kit, ring lights and selfie poles on the tell, apparently, he says, standing and sitting in front of one under existing rules. So it's not the headlines that then some of them were retracted with Wimbledon has banned influencers. And then that's got a bit of momentum. But I just wanted to get first of all, let's get your initial response to that news occasion across those two events.

5:45I don't care where we start, but just what was your when you first saw these stories? What did you think, Joe? Just take us. What was your initial response? So the US Open one, my initial response was, oh, goodness, that's terrible. And what are these influencers doing and how disruptive and how rude? But actually, I didn't understand why everyone was blaming the influencers because I was like, well, surely it's the responsibility of whoever invited them. Like when you take a guest or an influencer or a media partner or a journalist, when they arrive at a sporting event, there are certain rules that somebody tells us.

6:25And I was trying to take myself back. So in a former life, I worked for the BBC. I was a journalist, worked predominantly in football, but obviously covered various sports. And I was trying to think, but who told me the etiquette? Who told me what to do? But there were certain rules and regulations. And sometimes it was your line manager. Sometimes it was a senior. Sometimes it was the first day someone would sort of take you along and say, right well this is the mixed zone and they go first and then you get your three questions and when you get the tap on the shoulder then you move on like there were certain things or like in a press conference will those people go first and then the broadcasters get this like newspapers come second like there were just certain rules that we were told so I think even though initially I was obviously saw the pictures saw the ring lights saw the disruption was like oh this is awful but then I was actually you know those poor people who'd been invited and invited I presume to do their job as content creators and do what they do and you knew what you knew what they did before you invited them so then quite quickly I moved on to well whoever invited them or whoever's responsible for that area and it was an area be it a box be it the media zone be it wherever you are whoever's responsible for that area is responsible for educating or sharing information on how you are supposed to behave in that area.

7:44Yeah. It's interesting that the codes of the press box, because it is quite an intimidating area when you first go in and you don't quite know what you're... It's the worst. Yeah, and how things are done around here. There's a kind person who tells you. Yeah. Or you just quickly learn or you wait and you sort of shuffle behind people. But I think the next generation are far bolder than probably we ever were. And so they just do what they do. and why should they not do what they do? Because you've invited them for a reason in the same way I was invited to cover a game because I was a BBC journalist.

8:19I was invited for a reason. So you knew what my label was and then you're expecting me to behave in a different way. Yeah. Lisa, I'm going to just... I think my initial response is that I don't think influencers have invented annoying people at tennis. I don't... I don't, like, this isn't, like... it's not new news. I think Andy Murray got pretty upset some years back. I'm talking about Andy Murray, so it is now. At popping champagne and people moving in hospitality, actually people not showing up to the start of the Games, a big furore around, do we move the times for, insert name of British star at Wimbledon, so that the hospitality crew can finish their lunch and quaff their champagne before they come to the match.

9:11So I probably thought, well, this isn't a massively new story, but how it's framed is really interesting because I agree with everything that Joe said about behaviour. But we're very good now in the media at using a specific incident to kind of almost entirely dismiss a whole group of people. And in this scenario, it's a whole kind of creative profession because that's what it is. And I think there's a dotted line here a bit to some snobbery around the profession. So I know many people will go influencer in air quotes, but you don't do journalist or photographer. And so I think I do. Do what? yeah so I think there's a generational thing there's a misunderstanding you know not having caught up with what this now is which is in my view a profession and many brilliant people doing excellent work who are creators trendsetters producers script writers in one person but I think there's also a it strikes me of a nervousness this gets a bit broader than I suppose the story that came out but it strikes me that all of that is wrapped up in gatekeeping and sports obsession with exclusivity and gatekeeping and how you're meant to be how you're meant to behave and I do agree with Jo there there is that to learn but it it felt like a good story to dismiss something that people are pretty snobbish about well i suppose it's a story that was told by journalists about creators and about influencers there's that gatekeeping there's gatekeepers all over this and um there's also a thing that you run into all the time which is hospitality as a proxy into them and us about real fans and plastic fans or real rich and poor tradition versus the future you know all of those types of bits and bobs that that fly around all the time and then you get to it is a sponsor the bit that felt odd at the u.s open was that it did the people that were doing it did appear to be in sponsored hospitality yeah and i'd never seen that and i then saw sort of joey durso's piece which i shared with you earlier but again not i don't want to focus entirely on that but there was quite interesting stuff about what you do and should and shouldn't do within hospitality.

11:54So you're sort of getting into these various categories of, okay, well, it's not the dumb thing. And I agree with you about snobbery. I think because we're British, there's a class thing that runs through most things that we talk about. But there's also professional stuff going on, particularly journalists. Joe, we had Ben from Unilever on, and he dropped a big number on us in saying that, obviously, he'd just come off the back of the men's FIFA World Cup and they are a big partner and they're going into the Women's World Cup. And he said that between 50 % and 70 % in some cases, the budget was being shifted from traditional to creator as activation.

12:35And there's a lot of ifs and buts in that number in terms of what it actually means and whatever. But it was obviously, this is one of the biggest companies in the world who are saying, look, this is what we're doing. We're spending this money. Obviously, great news for you if your clients are in the creator sector. but what's the conversation on the brand side i was going to ask both of you that because a lot of this is tied up it's meshed into it's not journalists it's a different almost different category whereas this is much more blurred in terms of it's there's a commercial angle in there but there's also a publicity take take me through the the nature of the conversation that you have well for us as an agency we obviously speak to brands or agencies on behalf of brands daily and when they come to us with a we've we're working on the women's world cup we're working on wimbledon we're working on the f1 uh we're working on the champions league we need to do this sometimes they'll have a name and they say we'll be thinking we'd really like to work with client x let's talk but often what happens is they say we want we're looking for somebody or we're looking for a couple of names can you help us and what I love the the best bit about my job I think and actually because of my background is to be able to put the right person in the right place and that's by saying well what outcome do you want so if they just want eyeballs and if they just want awareness then you look at you go for someone with big numbers or big engagement because that's that's the end result they want but actually if they want to get to a new audience or they want to so women's football has been really interesting in the last 10 years specifically it had no audience like it wasn't a professional game in 2014 it wasn't televised so they've had to build a whole new audience and so actually the way they've gone about trying to find those fans is sometimes they've gone for somebody who just wants who's just got big numbers and then I can give them my content creator with the big numbers or they say I want the authenticity so I want someone who's worked in the game and I want the credibility and the numbers are less important.

14:45So then I give them my client who has that. Or they say, we're really struggling with the youth audience. We want someone that their followers are from this age group or this area or whatever they're looking for. And so we really specify which client we suggest depending on the outcome, because it's no good for anyone if the brand is spending money and they don't get the outcome they achieve because then it's I work with them once and my client doesn't get work again. So a lot of it is me trying to understand what they want. And often, look, it is surface. It's just we need to show that we get big numbers around this event, so give us someone with big numbers or a loud voice.

15:30But actually the smarter brands and with all the data that we've all got access to now, it's getting far. It's actually getting more interesting as a job because like in the days when people bought followers and lots of influencer content creators became popular because of their numbers or someone comes out of a reality TV show and they have massive numbers, then you can make really quick, you can make quick money and get work quick. But how do you sustain that? So actually what's more interesting now with all the data is we can go, but what's the outcome? And then we'll work back with you. and that's actually far more satisfying and everyone gets what they want.

16:09Lisa, it's the sort of same angle in from a different place really, but what's the job they do and what's the conversation on your side when you're talking directly to the brand? Yeah, I mean, directly connected to Joe and obviously agencies like ours and many others will be the ones helping those brand conversations in terms of defining what those objectives are. from a rather than a rights holder i speak from a sponsor perspective that nearly every every major sports campaign every campaign has it content creators and influences in it it's it's not a kind of try something trial it around the edges anymore it's absolutely in at the heart of the campaigns they reach audiences that rights holders broadcasters and the brands themselves can't reach alone we did some data research so we found ourselves being on a bit of a raw end so to joe's point around the kind of effectiveness and outcome we found ourselves on a bit of a raw end because a deal might be done brand is in export cricket football rugby whatever deals been done we have the con we have the rights we have the marketing campaign what have you and what started to happen from the days where you didn't ever talk about paid or content creators or influences in digital like the sponsorship does the job we've spent loads of money in the sponsorship we've got they've got channels we'll put it out you didn't talk about paid it was like swearing to the point where these you know and the industry and the creator industry has moved along so much and reach and content algorithms and all that kind of stuff to the point where anyone that was still relying on just their rights holder channels and what they've got in their deal to create an effective campaign and content was being really naive and we're on the raw end of that not the people that have done the deal in the first place but we are because we're the ones that's responsible for an effective campaign and it to deliver the results the brand wants can you explain that a bit a bit so what's happened in the last 10 years is rights holders sell their own digital content to brands yeah we have the channels we can do a bit of paid for you but we have the channels we have the football audience we have man united whatever billion number you want to put on it this week we have that many fans on our channels we'll create the content for you we'll distribute it for you millions of people will buy your product that's the narrative when you're on the raw end of that and you create lovely brilliant beautiful content and it goes out purely on the rights holder channels no one's seeing it yeah and if you look at what we did is we actually looked at what are the audiences for these sports?

19:08Because actually the brand doesn't just really want to get to United fans or Spurs. They are trying to get to football fans. And if you start to look at the percentage that these rights holders can actually reach the fan, on average across the top 10, it's 27%. They can get to about 27 % of that fan audience, whether it's rugby, cricket. that's kind of the fact of the audience that they've claimed for their they could no that that's of the total so the total rugby audience so there's 11 million rugby fans in this country the rugby rights holder can only get to about 27 of that now that is also before on your point there is even before you start to look at repetition you know organic the algorithm what so so that you're not getting to the fans that you've bought into and that's a really difficult thing for rights holders to admit but we were seeing we were on the raw end of the fact these campaigns aren't working so that is when you have to start going okay well how are we going to get reach and one point is reach the other one is relevancy yeah of course you're going to see cricket content on cricket channels of course i'm going to see rugby content and rugby channels but what if that cricket content shows up in x influencer or shows up on versus which is about football which is a football publisher so actually that's where we start to look at we've got to do something different here in the distribution in the creation of the content because it affects the creation it affects the type of content you're going to create we've got to do something different in the in the distribution of of that content yeah as well and that that's what we have seen happen because they these not just creators and not just influencers but publishers as well they get this content to travel further and they get it they make it more relevant it starts to show up in different places um and particularly because as joe's already said alluded to particularly on the rights holder side it's new audiences how do i stretch beyond that's a rights holder challenge not so much on the sponsor they know they bought into that property or to that sport because they know they've got the right audience but yeah so that's what's happening from our perspective on the sponsor side of things.

21:24Yeah I'm wondering what that says about the rights holder channels in terms of their positioning in this it's almost like they're sort of renting an audience again aren't they it's the same thing as a television audience you're sort of pushing out your product to a third party who are then sort of selling it in. Joe on a more granular level what do they want is there these things have become contractual but what is it that they're looking for there's a difference between we mentioned journalists at the beginning and they do a particular job reporting what they see on the pitch or on the track.

21:59Something else is happening here. So I'm just wondering how you define the something else. I think the something else is kind of the hype. The journalists are there to provide an objective view and generally to provide news. Whereas what's happening with content creators is you're bringing me a vibe. you're almost selling an event to me and while it's not straight PR because they will also bring their own view on it and their own experience to it ultimately it works for brands and actually the sports that they are having an experience and they are then sharing their experience And I think that's the joy of it.

22:47That's why it's so different to what I would call journalism. Yeah. Using inverted commas. We see you so. I like we're doing that now. That's shifted. Podcasts, yeah. It's coverage, isn't it? And it's just a different form of storytelling. Journalism is one form of storytelling. and I feel this is a different form of storytelling. It's also, it's promotional, isn't it? It's much more, it's a marketing question rather than what I would call an editorial question. Absolutely. And that's why it's paid. Well, not always either. I mean, because actually that, and that's where PR and comms has evolved, right?

23:30So there's most likely that you'll have an earned influencer strategy as well. So it's outreach to influencers in exactly the same way as you would to journalists and media to attend. The outputs are different, but the approach is the same. And any good influencer agency or agency will be doing that as well. You don't have to pay everyone. There is a value exchange here as well, particularly for influencers and creators who are starting out, who are looking to build up their content, giving them, particularly in sport, giving them experiences, hospitality tickets, something to do with their family, something that actually adds to their overall profile is helpful to them too so there is a value exchange it is though also where back to the original point you can start to lose control and but that's the point I think if you're if you're contracting someone for paid work then we would like we'll have a brief there's certain contractual obligations that it's a an agreement i think if it's you're inviting someone for hospitality because you just want them to say nice things about you i don't think you have a right to control it there's etiquette you can control because there's a bit when you get on the tube and you queue and you let the people off first before you get on like that's just learned etiquette but you can't control what they say or how they share their experience so i think there's two bits of control one is there's a sort of another link in the chain so when so for example wimbledon we started on that's the news hook you've got wimbledon the rice holder and they've got they can lay down rules and who can come in and who can't and all the rest of it then you get to their partners so ibm or i can't list the roll call of wimbledon partners but there's what they do has wimbledon got control over that as well is that written into the sponsorship relationship can they say okay well you're not going to turn up with you're not going to use creators in the in the way you haven't got complete freedom there well that's a big question like where do you start to draw the line i mean i think i'm right in saying i think it's pimps have for 10 years had i think it's been um you know had exclusive hospitality you get the the very a-list of celebrity and just because you're famous three digital channels now does not make you any less of a celebrity where do you draw the line at saying what you can and can't do you will have of course you've got that within your sponsorship agreement so anything should be backed into anything that anything you do with whether that's your events agency or production house or whoever's going to be on site you're going to have to have that backed into those contracts around behavior but it is more difficult if you're paying people who are invited I think most people that attend that are invited they're not paid to be yeah it's such an exclusive invite but you do receive some instructions around dress code around the itinerary of the day and that's that's useful and whether they got that at the US Open or not those influencers who were in a box for example maybe they didn't but if you go to Wimbledon is a guest of Evian, Vodafone, Pimms, Barclays, all of the above.

27:03And they're really prestigious invites and clients love receiving them. And it's such a privilege to attend. But you do, they are, they send amazing briefs. So when people get to, so when you define everything as a creator, it's like the content word, isn't it? When everything is content, it starts to lose meaning. When everyone is a creator, I'm just wondering, I look at the Royal Box. because I was at Wimbledon this year, and you look in, and obviously part of the game is trying to see who's in that day, and it's Benedict Cumberbatch and Mary Berry. They're sort of creators, aren't they? What's the role that they're playing that's different than a YouTuber or a young Instagram influencer?

27:41Well, I think they're endorsing the product. I think they're endorsing the occasion rather than necessarily... To their audience? To their audience, but also to a tennis audience. to go, oh, it's almost like if that product is big enough to get someone of that level to come, and the Wimbledon Royal Box is always, like you say, it's the A-list of the A-list, I think it's just sort of the stamp of approval, isn't it? I wouldn't say they're there. Yes, they'll have their photo, maybe, but you don't see much content from the Royal Box, do you, from those that are invited? No, I mean, it's sort of, well, you see lots of it, at Wimbledon I mean one of the noticeable aptics has been the amount of lifestyle fashion booze type stuff that is being promoted around the event and again one of the sort of pushbacks has been how much and Wimbledon is particular for lots of different reasons it's incredibly premium but it is very influential so it's it's interesting that they've they're talking about this in the open because what they talk about gets copied and we've all had conversations where okay well to a to an aspiring premium rights holder they always say oh you want to be a bit like wimbledon balanced tradition and the future and all of that stuff you think well good luck with that it's really hard and it takes a long time and um but that's what they'll they'll sort of their take out from this might be let's get rid of all the influences and that lots again is about the gatekeeping piece and i think wimbledon is such a good example of that that that it is so traditional it is so prestigious but it's also about people going oh well we belong at Wimbledon but do you belong at Wimbledon and I think actually Wimbledon have done such a great job of making it such it's such a thing that you want to attend a bit like the BAFTAs or the Oscars or the if you get an invite to Wimbledon it's like this is such an incredible experience but there obviously seems to be a voice from within that goes, oh no, but Wimbledon's for us.

29:50But who's us? But that's the same sort of, there's a them and us with... There's a them and us about Chelsea hospitality boxes and football fans versus sort of, and it's the sponsors always come in for the... I've said that for 25 years when the prawn sandwich brigade came in. You know, Roy Keane spoke about it 25 years ago. So it's nothing new. It's just, you know, well, Wimbledon have got to make a decision about what they want to be yeah they want to evolve do they want to welcome new audiences but I think Wimbledon have actually done really well by keeping the elitism and keeping the traditions but actually welcoming new audiences because Lisa and I were laughing the other day about it when I was a kid my mum used to take us to Wimbledon and she'd make us queue up in the field and she'd pick us up from school and we'd go and get the return tickets at four o 'clock but it was like we were really sad like people would take the mick out of me at school like going to Wimbledon it was quite a geeky thing to do it definitely wasn't cool whereas now Wimbledon is a very cool thing so I kind of think well what what do Wimbledon want to be who are they trying to appeal to and I think actually I personally think they've done an amazing job of it there's a brand question which is whether or not if I'm a brand strategist on the marketing side I trust my brand with the creators and it gets to the there's a control bit in there but there's also i wouldn't sleep at night we've just had a very high profile thing calloway and good good and coming out with a really crass piece of creative which then becomes a shit storm on social media which then you know they have to then retract from etc but that's a sort of microcosm of a bigger question about i don't know what my you have to be pretty certain about what your brand is and and and that has to be educated down talk me about that bit of it because that's the bit that I sort of can't quite get at when I listen to to Unilever talking about it yeah I mean to make a point on the Callaway thing it does and then it slightly doesn't blow my mind because it's who looks at it right but the processes and approvals and requirements to get any kind of content out is hard work yeah it is such hard work you know it's why christmas campaigns get started in january it's that's how long it takes and there's a point here which is around speed right there's influencers are incredible creators are incredible at creating quality content quickly and getting it out yeah we are working on a christmas football campaign at the moment we have a very short window time you've got that betwixtmas period when all the football games are going on and we were like we've got to get this content out really really quickly we're doing this thing we do it with an influencer we send the influencer in the influencer will be able to get that you don't send that to a production house third party you're not getting that you send it to the person that is absolutely the best the professional at doing this but taking a step back I agree that kind of brand protection I think that has shifted and changed a lot it was it used to be a lot of education to brands saying you cannot give them the brief you get your ad agency you just you can't you're buying them you're buying their tone you're buying the audience and if it doesn't work for them on their channels it's not going to work for you if you just put your ad and there's still a bit of that but also there's so much of that tone thing is such an important point because when you're working with those big brands and then they engage our content creators and then they do something and then we send it for approval they'll be like oh but could they just say it this way and I'm like but I can ask them to re-record it and they can say it that way but you're then not getting the essence of that person and everybody's going to know it's inauthentic but some of the and I'm talking the big big big brands and we had this a lot around world cups and those big tournaments when you have those layers of approval and then they want it rewritten in their own way you're like but you might as well have just done an ad without this person who you are investing into and buying into and you want their voice but then you're trying to change their voice yeah so there's a much better understanding with brands now of that ultimately we will not work if you work in the way that you've always worked you have that brilliant plan check it won't work there is so much more work though in the development of the idea in the first place it's so much more of a creative process with the creator influencer where you're bringing your ideas they are bringing their ideas they're still working in the classic brand strategy, in the classic case of what's my platform idea, what are the things I'm trying to say?

34:48None of that has changed. It's just the development of the idea. You don't go off, sit in a room, come up with an idea and ship it out to an influencer. When we worked, we helped people launch the Women's Champions Cup. No audience for it. Didn't know what it was in this country. I'll admit, I didn't know what it was. just before Christmas. Let's do a PR press launch. We were like, no, don't do that. You know, work with creators, some of which were Jo's, some were others. Let them do that. Tell them what it is. Tell them where it is. Tell them how you can buy tickets, what it's going to be. The brief was, give us your interpretation of this kind of cultural, global mix.

35:36Your interpretation, do it. I think Girls on the Ball did the escalator. It was like their day. And it was completely their, it was like Lisa said, it was their take. And they're so, I mean, they're so authentic. They've worked in women's football for years. And it was just their take on sort of a London tournament and the fixtures, wasn't it? And I just remember this beautiful sort of content piece. But they came up with it and Lisa's agency let them have the freedom. They gave them the brief. They gave them that this is what we're trying to achieve, but please do it as you and yeah that was actually one of the best things we've kind of we've worked on it was and I think it worked for the client well we sold tickets yeah they did just sold tickets um okay I've got a couple of questions so Jazz Sawyer who this summer was a meme herself but we had her on the podcast two years ago and she's a long jumper team GB brilliant athlete the question for her was the expectation then on athlete using her just as a way in to talk about the actual athletes you know it is really hard being a world-class long jumper you know i'm not this is not breaking news so then we then load them on with okay you it would be great if you became a little bit more like a creator and you did all this stuff and i have she when i was watching her this summer obviously she was brilliant at the sport but also it was just that she was at the center of the story with the the blanket waiting for the jump or whatever and it became a whole thing but I do remember her saying I don't want to do it I'm not very good at it which is might not be true but also it takes a long time and these people are okay if we're not going to put them in inverted commas then we are going to have to accept that they're a professional people with a skill set that is going to be difficult for everyone to learn so this assumption that and it might be an old assumption might be out of date that the sports talent need to add that string to their bow bow to the is that is that the right string to bows or is that i always get the wrong way around bows to strings which direction is the bow and the string we'll sort it out we'll edit all this but talk to me then joe about what the brief then is for on the sports side because i can see it we all know there's a real incentive just to do stuff and be great and if you're great at it my consumption of of sort of keely's career and a lot of players and footballers and athletes is entirely through clips so just talk to me about this how it works and what your advice is in that that sense oh it's such it's such a pressure I think it is such a pressure for them and I think it's we've seen it even more in the last sort of probably 10 years around the female athletes because social media is a complex place as we all know we've all experienced the sexism you've all seen what Karen Carney went through yeah the misogyny that you face online like even and like body image for women there's that sort of fear of not getting enough likes or do I look good enough we had this whole thing about sort of club club photography and sort of the way the pictures that clubs put up of women that the women didn't like and they were never sort of asked does that you okay with that picture because it does impact it impacts lots of things so it's a it's a daily battle there are some clients that love it and just do it naturally and are happy to just play a game get the pictures they'll get sent the pictures from the club to chuck a few up and they're happy to just say something whether they win lose or draw they can just do it there's other clients that just overthink it and it's it's a it's a world that they're not comfortable with they don't you know they might be very private also there's some athletes that just want to do the sport and they understand sometimes the need to use their platform or to work with brands to help commercialize themselves to help themselves financially but ultimately all they really care about is their sport and so to work with with clients like that is it's often you've really got to help them you've got to help them in how to phrase things you've got to sort of encourage them to go what about this picture what about this picture just post it just post it just post it so yeah I think it's a massive pressure they're exhausted after a game they've done post-match they've had to face the media anyway and now then you've got someone in your ear going have you posted your pictures from today have you thanked the fans have you done this we have tried it in the past where we've a content creator with them so they'll send some pictures across and then the content creator will put them into whether it's real or a carousel or whatever it is and write a few things but i'll be honest with you especially with the clients i work with it doesn't work because you're never really gonna get their voice you're never really gonna get it as they want it and also like lisa said it's just another layer like the beauty of social media platforms is the immediacy so if by the time you've sent some pictures across and then they've written they've written something and they've sent it back and then they've edited it and uploaded it blah blah blah just kind of loses the moment doesn't it so yeah it's an ongoing thing and we really encourage people to do it because I think it's important to have a voice whether your voice is I actually really love Jaz's social media presence because I love seeing when she makes the clothes or I love seeing how she has that that downtime I love like she's just actually very normal about the struggles online so I really I've that's really interesting that she said she doesn't necessarily love it whereas i think oh she's one of the sort of most natural i agree but the other bit that again i was going to push this to you lisa is that is the practicality of it because just from an event perspective if everyone turns out with a camera crew it's going to be it's going to be hard work and to an extent the u.s open stuff there it's almost like a sort of you know a train crash in slow emotion you could see that this was going to be this was going to happen if you start i don't know how we work through this and again if everyone is a media publisher what you do at an event again one of the things that jazz said was you turn up in training and people are rowing about space and yeah anyway and then when you add in a whole team of people that they want to you know do their do their socials for what do you think how's that going to work out yeah i the majority of times when we're working with athletes it's usually there's a rights holder and a governing body there who are usually kind of looking after them and have their own crews and most rights holders now will have a digital content agency um production team what have you so rather than on an individual basis i think something a slightly different take on it that i've seen I was at an event with athletes not that long ago and the demands that the creators were putting on the athletes became really challenging and this is a little bit again that kind of education piece but sometimes it's pretty wild these creators are successful for individuality and difference and comedy and fun and what's the latest TikTok trend.

43:00And we had arm wrestling. And, I mean, at one point I thought one of them was going to have to do a headstand. And it's just really fascinating because we've only got media officers who actually are now becoming kind of pretty well trained and versed on how do you manage this. The demands were pretty great. But also there's club responsibilities. We have insurance responsibilities for what our clients can and cannot do, even to the point of, well, can they just have a little kick about or can they just do some keepy uppies or can they just do a little drill and I'm like no no they can't because they're on a rehab program or they're not wearing the right shoes and that's not the right surface and you set like you just you feel like the most difficult person in the world but that's my job yeah I mean I did a shoot with Chris Hoy for 2012 with Sky years ago and he could he wasn't allowed to stand I was like is he not standing ever oh no we've had that though we've had that long ad day can't stand yeah because i know it sounds ridiculous and that's like you sound like when you say it out loud but you're like no genuinely they're under a rehab program they are not in the right shoes to stand all day they're not in the right um this isn't you know it's whatever it is like you sound like an idiot but they are elite athletes for a reason yeah and these days the trends are balance your legs and yeah someone on your lap while you're so look it's that's extreme but you know it it was eye-opening to see the demands on the athletes and they're very very varied in their response there are as joe said there's some that are just you know like digital native love it want to do it and there's others that just don't and that that's just it's it's human nature i think the most basic the most basic sort of example is selfies in the tunnel and I think when content creators first started coming to football be that men's or women's there was a we were all horrified that there would be people asking for selfies or taking selfies in a tunnel now a tunnel at a football ground is not it's a very professional zone and there are rules and regulations about how you behave in the tunnel and who's allowed in the tunnel and so when people start asking for a selfie or doing a selfie which is perfectly normal in a content creator's world because they're that's what what they do on social media but I think actually in the journalist world that was the first sign of oh hang on a minute someone actually has to educate them on professional zones that there's reason in professional sport why that rule is in and then actually going back to the point there isn't a reason why in hospitality that you can't do this there's there's rules that we have because it will impact the sport and there's rules that we have that are just rules that we've had for so long and people don't like change but I think this has become quite a challenge in in the professional environment for athletes and teams in particular because I think you look so you look to the red roses and you look at just the incredible content engagement and the absolute desire that is a team that wants to do that they see it as their platform they see their responsibility you've got the coach who's involved in that as well there's clearly an agreed how we're going to do it there's a culture but that isn't the case and there's still a lot of division on this and a young athlete coming in who is a digital native who wants to do this stuff who then goes into a performance environment that that's kind of frowned on and it's somehow a distraction from the professionalism and the athleticism and the training and all of that kind of stuff and that do I want to be judged but then it's so important and my sorry Jo but my agent's saying grow my my numbers would be really good and I think that's that is being worked out live i would say within within kind of professional team environment yeah i mean joe you make your point about it's the the difference the the about women athletes and women sports people and in that social media environment and the misogyny and sexism is really well made there's it's sort of a question that i had which is again i've been talking about the women's world cup fifa world cup in Brazil.

47:26And we've just come off a summer where we've had the Cricket World Cup, 2020 World Cup women's event, the tournament. And you mentioned there, Lisa, about Red Roses, and it's almost seen as much more necessary. There's a question there in terms of whether people in the Premier League, men's, don't need to do it because the economics are so different. And there is an implied or explicit demand for women's athletes to take up this mantle? It's an old question about where the money's going to come from and what the product is and is it the same product? Is it a television rights-based product or is it something else?

48:04In which case social media then becomes the channel and the clips of the product and all these things that we could sort of throw around. But I just wanted to just sort of throw that out there because when I look at the Women's World Cup, one of the conversations we had with a couple of people, but on the brand side, was that the infrastructure is harder to construct that there are fewer women football creators that you can then go to and say or are talking to a female football audience how do you do that as a brand to say right okay i'm unilever there's a world cup going on i'm going to have a creator strategy this sounds brilliant and then i'm now looking around for creators who are talking to and have an audience of women football fans and it's much much smaller than their men the male equivalent oh see i don't think there is i think actually because women's football has kind of evolved with content creators i think actually there's such a big pool of women content creators i think maybe the male content creators will have bigger numbers or bigger reach but actually in terms of the quality the number of women's content creators for me and maybe it's because I've worked in that space for a long time like I know a list yeah I could sit here and do a whole hour on on women's content creators and and their audiences and actually they are directly talking to the audience that people may want now what you may want to do is get a male influencer to come and experience women's sport and bring that audience with him and vice versa we take female content creators into the into the male space and to bring that audience across like it it can work both ways but again it goes back to what what does what's the brand trying to achieve or what are the rights holders trying to achieve okay lisa what worked this summer because i know you're involved in the world the cricket world cup and i've got beth barrett wild coming as you know on to an event this week but oh rubbish what uh show me your rubbish what what what sort of stood out because i i went to the launch event and it was creators were sort of very much part of the mix but we're looking back what was your sort of take on it yeah and that was early that was early days like april the year before wasn't it and actually most of them there were there in an earned capacity most of them were there interested to find out more we wanted to engage them i guess it was a a bit more of that kind of structured, probably old school days would have been a press conference, dialed up a bit.

50:41I think what worked enormously was the strategy that was very clear and set around the audience. So women's sport does this thing of we're trying to kind of reach everyone. and we're trying to do big eventers and we're trying to get new audiences and we're trying to we need to be in luxury and lifestyle because we need to bring women in and and it gets really messy and the best thing about I think the World Cup this summer was saying we've got massive head room with cricket fans any people that have an affinity to cricket that's who we're going after and yes of course there's then branches from that that you go out but but ultimately we are talking about the sport we're not talking about lifestyle we're not trying to make this cool um and so it just sets the framework in it and and we i remember we were doing uh kind of comms uh you know women ICC with Bitwise Sky but it was like our focus is 70 % on sport we haven't even done sport media properly yet you know we've done we do cricket we do cricket really well but we haven't even got into sport and we're obviously competing with it was a men's world cup too and then we'll do 30 % lifestyle let's not get distracted by the really really hard thing that's not really going to drive ticket sales so that for us personally that that is how that impacted us but i think the overall campaign so yes we did an incredible cover double page spread in vogue that was brand women's cricket that's a brand job in the net and field terms um but being on sport s and uh in in the sport sections and not getting sidelined into a cricket section that was where we were going to do a job in the long term about driving the growth.

52:44So that for me, and that's, you know, Bath Barrett-Wild and Jen Vile, who just are brilliant, brilliant strategists and know the sport and what it needed rather than getting distracted and sidetracked and spending money where you don't need. But from the agent side of that, we obviously, we did some work around the World Cup as well. And we had, so Faraz Noor is a huge cricket fan, Pakistani heritage, he knows cricket. So he was involved in it, but had actually never really been to women's cricket. So that worked beautifully. But then we had a couple of content creators who went, who'd never been to cricket before, but they got to go to Lords.

53:21And I remember them saying to me, it was so amazing. Like they didn't, they got given, I know it sounds ridiculous, but they were told the rules of the game. They were given really clear guidelines about what happens at a day of cricket and what was needed. And that is down to communication. and I know we're sitting on a call together, but Lisa's agency gave them really clear guidelines and really clear instructions about, look, we're inviting you to Lords and this is what happens on a day of cricket and actually this is what we need from you, but go and have a great time. And they loved it and we still talk about when can we go to the cricket?

53:53When can we have a team day at the cricket? When can we go to Lords? So yeah, it kind of worked on both sides, but I think part of it was that clear guideline for our content creators. And Alex Bayless got me to try and explain the Duckworth Lewis to her as well when it was 39 degrees. Oh, yeah, it was crazy. Feel free to do it now. She made that ridiculous. She asked that question, which anyone would, which is, what happens if... And I was like, oh, God. Isn't that the beauty? You know what? And this is like, actually, isn't that the beauty of when you take someone, be that a content creator or be that a new fan, to a sport that you've just done and you've gone forever and we've all worked in sport a long time goes back to that gatekeeping piece we're proper fans yeah proper inverted commas again but when you bring someone new and they go why do they do that or what happens if yeah what happens when really makes you think about it i think that it's interesting so i go to lots of sports events i don't know what's going on we go to a rugby match i know about 20 percent of what's going on but there's an assumption because i look and sound like i know everything about everything about every sport so no one bothers to explain the rules on the munition i'm sitting there ignorantly just sort of smiling and not knowing what's happening at all so actually it's quite they're quite it's quite a useful device in that way yes there's a also there's a joy in someone going this is amazing and you're going yes it is and aren't I lucky to be here and just a nice little reminder of that feeling of when live sport happens and that you can't you can't replicate it and when you take someone new and a content creator is then trying to share that with their audience I think that's an amazing thing and that's why I'm that this whole gatekeeping thing about content creators yeah let's just help them and help them understand maybe how some sports operate but also like bring them in listen to them yeah I think there's sort of it's interesting we talk about tribalism quite often don't we in sport and fandom snobbery of various types is absolutely endemic in it as well I think that's there's something about class when you come to rounding off now but about the creator question there is something here about the democratization of media which really annoys people who are in the media there's a whole thing about fans this is my club in europe you're not a proper fan you don't know the history and all of these things which is part of the fun of it until it isn't you know and then it's it blows up but we could go on forever and i'm really pleased we did get together in the end and thanks so much for your time so lisa parfit Joe Tong, come back, come back soon.

56:30Richard, we will. We'd love to.