Carlson’s War: Part 2

0:00This is a Sunday story, and we continue with Quill Lawrence's reporting about combat veteran Dave Carlson. Quill first met Carlson while he was incarcerated more than 10 years ago. At the time, Carlson was serving a prison term for a variety of crimes he'd committed after two tours in Iraq. And a warning, this episode includes explicit language, as well as descriptions of violence and mentions of sexual assault and suicide. Quill continues the story from here. Dave Carlson went into prison in very bad mental health. And like we said in episode one, incarcerated veterans get very few VA services.

0:44So his PTSD isn't being treated. And he does not do well. Oh, man. At first, it was really bad. People banging. Like in certain areas of jails and prison, people bang a lot. And you don't wake up to banging. Well, you know, waking up to mortars is waking up to banging. And then when I wake up like that, my adrenaline is spiked. In prison, he starts to behave like he's still at war. He reverts back into combat mode. He's coming up with tactics to keep the enemy at bay. He came up with a whole system for cell fighting. He would put a slick of baby oil at the entrance to his cell so anyone who rushes in would slip.

1:20And he would train specifically for cardio so he could outlast anyone in that small space. And he's telling me, he's like, man, it was just like I was back in Iraq. Josh Fridgen, his special forces buddy, was in touch with Carlson after he was sent to prison and said that at one point Carlson told him he was in such a dark place that he was plotting a kind of suicide attack from his cell. He thought about making a shank, walking up to the guard's window, and just slitting his throat and bleeding out in front of them just to give them PTSD. On my calls with him from prison, Carlson told me he was having combat nightmares and his violent outbursts got him put in solitary for a long time.

2:02He was screaming, 24-7, screaming, crying, feces, people do piss. Josh Frisgen says Carlson told him he actually felt like he was staring down the devil there in solitary. That's where his head was at that time. So he's got to sit in there alone with his thoughts. And I think that might have been one of the better things for him, where you can't, you're kind of forced to sit there and think about your problems. It was terrible. I mean, it's silence. Besides people screaming, people flooding their cells, but otherwise there's no TV, there's no radio, just none of that stuff. And dealing with that was very hard for me.

2:51I think that's where he found God. That's where he said he found God. And basically, that was probably the big turning point for Dave, where he just started kind of rebuilding. To rebuild, Carlson had to find a new mission. And he comes to the idea that he should serve others. I need to go out and selflessly pursue helping other people that are in my position. You know, I feel like I can maybe help prevent them from going down the same road that I did.

3:24So let me set the scene. Just months after he found Faith in solitary, Carlson was due for that sentencing hearing in Waukesha, Wisconsin, the one you heard in episode one, where his mom and his grandma and his combat buddies all showed up for him. We're here today on the matter of state of Wisconsin versus David Carlson. And at this hearing, the judge is deciding whether to extend Carlson's sentence for the new crimes he committed in prison or set him free for time served. When we come back, the sentence. Mr. Carlson, this criminal justice system, frankly, has bent over backwards. And frankly, sir, the response to all that has not been good.

4:08We'll be right back.

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4:57Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Support for this podcast and the following message come from the University at Buffalo, where researchers have developed an AI-powered handwriting analysis tool to screen for dyslexia and other learning disorders. More at buffalo.edu slash NPR. We're back with a Sunday story from up first. Here's NPR's Quill Lawrence. Dave Carlson's hearing on September 3rd, 2015, takes place before Judge Donald Hassan. Hassan happens to be a veteran himself. He served in Vietnam. In his opening remarks, he doesn't sound convinced that Carlson deserves any more second chances.

5:42Mr. Carlson, this criminal justice system, frankly, has bent over backwards and gone through a lot of hoops in an effort to maintain you in the community. And frankly, sir, the response to all that has not been good. When you think about it, Dave Carlson has messed up a lot. All the crimes after he got back from Iraq, plus all the fighting in prison, it adds up. And Judge Hassan seems to have already done the math for Dave Carlson's sentence. I'm looking at a fine young man sitting here in front of me today that I'm going to end up putting in prison for a little bit. The sentence today is two years on each count.

6:21Two years confinement, two years extended supervision for an aggregate of four years. And that sounds like four more years in prison and his family and his combat buddies all gasp. But then the judge explains that it's concurrent with time served. So actually he's going to be out in a couple of months. That, by my estimation, Mr. Carlson, will better prepare you for your return to the community. Because the next time you come to the community, sir, all that we wish from you is your success. And I realized the judge had the same question I did. How did Dave Carlson go so wrong? And even for all his missteps, the judge is betting that Carlson can fight through this.

7:05So do I trust you, Mr. Carlson? I want to. And that's why I didn't put you in prison today for what amounts to be six years. I'm giving you the challenge, sir, of leaving the state prison system here in a fairly short period of time. But you know what? You can do it. You're very capable of it, Mr. Carlson. These guys behind you believe that you're capable of it today as well, or they wouldn't be here, right? Sir. Okay. So to them, you owe something to, right? Yes, sir. You do. All right, that's the owner of the court, Mr. Carlson. We don't need you back, sir. Good luck, okay? All right, sir. But the judge isn't taking it on faith that Carlson's going to make it.

7:44The sentence includes 12 years of extended supervision plus three years of probation. So 15 years. It's a huge amount of time to have a cop looking over your shoulder. Still, when Carlson called me from the jail phone right after, he was elated, mostly because of the respect that the judge had shown him. At the end, he called me a fine young man. And honestly, it wouldn't matter what sentence he gave me. That meant a lot to me. I think that throughout all of this, that's all I've been looking for, is just for people to see that I've meant well and that I went down the wrong road. Dave Carlson walks out of jail, a free man, on December 30, 2015.

8:25He moves into an apartment his grandma has rented for him. He hunkers down. I called him up two weeks after he'd moved in. It was like shell shock at first. The first couple of days were really bad. It took about a week before I could get my bearings and stuff. Just trying to act like I'm back in the world and life is life now, you know? In a way, even though he's been home from war for seven and a half years at this point, it's almost like his first real re-entry to the country coming home because he's been in prisons or institutions for a lot of that time. The biggest thing is just trying to keep a middle ground rather than trying to race too far ahead too quick, you know?

9:09And I checked in on him again a couple of months later. You know, you sounded good. Hey. Hey. So how you been? Not bad. Just leaving the gym right now. Oh, yeah? Headed to the other gym. He tells me he's been exercising like crazy to keep busy and working as a trainer at two gyms. And he's met someone. Um, I'm kind of dating a female that, uh, she's a, she does CrossFit now, but, uh, she also has a personal trainer at the gym that I, that I work at. Uh-huh. That's cool. Just basically, it's not, it's nothing super serious. It's just, we do a lot of workouts together and stuff. That girl, her name's Alicia.

9:48I was coaching a boot camp class at a boxing gym. and I will never forget the day that he walked into this gym and I was actually married at the time when he when we met um and we were I was struggling in that marriage at the time but he so he walks into this boxing gym and he had this he had on high top Jordan tennis shoes a sweat like track suit almost thing, like sweatpants. And then he always wore like a tight fitting, like they wore it in boxing to make him sweat more, but it was like a tight fitting wicking kind of shirt and it would be tucked into his sweatpants and just serious, like the most serious person I've ever seen.

10:38Alicia at first doesn't like him. She thinks he's kind of an arrogant chump who acts like he owns this gym, but there is this competitive energy between them, a way they both push out this gym vibe and one day they actually have it out. I'm not joking when I say this workout was like a deadly workout. It was just him and I in the gym. And I think it was like we both saw a push in each other. Like, you know, I'm not backing down, you're not backing down. And I think that workout meant a lot to both of us in terms of like a partner or like seeing someone who has that ability and that like mental toughness to push through something that was miserable.

11:19That was the first thing that we had gone through or did it together. And you know, in the months ahead, Alicia gets divorced. They move in together and she starts to realize what she is getting herself into. I was like, holy shit. I looked up his record and was like, oh my gosh, my dad is gonna like kill me. But she says it was like they were both starting from nothing. And they're in love. Both of them are thinking about going back to school and a job outside training at the gym. Things go really fast. Maybe too fast. Something inside Carlson isn't keeping up. He's been out of prison for about a year when Alicia says he starts to slip.

12:00I do like to get a cocktail sometimes at dinner. And I'd always ask, would you care if I'd order a drink with dinner? And he never would care. But then we were at dinner and he was like, well, I think I'm going to get a drink with you. And what comes next, according to Alicia, is a year and a half of insanity. This kind of relapse, it's pretty common. But Carlson's on probation. He's one drunken traffic stop away from getting hauled back to prison. And amid that insanity, Carlson and Alicia, they get married and she's pregnant. And she's committed. she doesn't want to give up on their marriage.

12:40Their son is born right in the thick of it. I had a brand new baby. David was completely out of his mind. So Dave Carlson is out of his mind, and then he outright disappears for six weeks. Alicia tries to track him down in some pretty bad parts of town. Finally, she finds him in a hotel. They wouldn't let me have a key to the front, to his door. And I don't remember the reason. but I ended up figuring out which room it was, and then I removed the screen, and the window was unlocked, and I ended up scaling the side, and I climbed in the window. I was sitting at a desk. I had drank alcohol, and I had a pile of cocaine in front of my face.

13:28I was snorting cocaine. And this is already after you've got a son? Yeah. Yeah. yeah that I just that I wanted to die I didn't want to take on my responsibility of being a dad because I knew that I was gonna I was gonna suck at it and I was gonna teach my kids all kinds of bad shit so maybe maybe my dad it was best that he was gone not in my life for the majority of it because like maybe I would have just been even worse off and maybe I'm gonna do that to my kids maybe it's inevitable that that's what's gonna happen yeah I think like all of that shit was going through my head. Alicia and a mutual friend lock him in their apartment and say, you're not leaving unless it's to the VA for rehab.

14:12And eventually he goes to inpatient rehab at the VA in St. Cloud, Minnesota. It was like, I'm just going to do whatever I need to, to like keep this. I want to get David like back on the rails because I feel like if I can get him help. He has so much potential. Like, this is just a part of his story. I believe that he has so much more to offer this world, and he's here for a reason. Like, I just have always felt that with him. Like, he feels like he has a bigger purpose. You know, I was always hoping Carlson was going to make it, but I've seen lots of vets fail. The fact is, by now, we've lost four times more Iraq in Afghanistan vets to suicide than we've lost in combat.

14:59So maybe it's holding his new baby in the peace and stability of the VA hospital. Maybe it's Alicia. Maybe it's his growing sense of serving God. Most likely it's all of that. But Dave Carlson is finally able to turn all that rage, all that power in the right direction, a direction more suited for life outside of war. There's a quote, and I'm going to butcher it possibly, but it's about, it's a proverb about, I would rather be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. And I think that it really speaks to, for me, it speaks to being able to defend yourself, to be able to do harm. but then having the discipline, having the empathy, having the compassion to not do it.

15:54And so that's who Dave Carlson decides he's going to be. From early in his relationship with Alicia, he talked about going to law school. Now he acts on it. He takes the LSAT. So then it was like just little good things kept happening. Like I ended up graduating grad school, which was a huge help. We bought our first house in that time, which was really cool for both of us. And then he got into law school. And then, I mean, that was just like, whoa, like, I can't believe this is happening. Like, you did it. You're doing exactly what you said you're going to do. They both felt the change. There's a new energy in the relationship.

16:38They have another child, another boy. And for all of us, time keeps passing. There's a pandemic. More than 4 ,100 people have died in New York from COVID-19 so far. And racial justice protests. There have been about 9 ,000 protest-related arrests in the U.S. since the death of George Floyd last week. And I was overdue for a check-in with Carlson in March of 2021. I call him up on Zoom, which has been invented. What's up? Hey, how are you? Just getting there. I'm good. How about yourself? Good, good. Good to see you. You as well. A lot better setup than the jail phone. Oh, yes. Yes. He's now a student at Mitchell Hamlin Law School in St.

17:20Paul, and he's working as a paralegal on the side. And at this point, I've been talking to Dave Carlson for years. That was a long time ago now. It feels like a long time. I don't even remember how long ago that was. Yeah, man, that was, I don't know, like six, seven years now. And he's close to graduating from law school. And at this stage, when I call to talk with him, it's not really interviews anymore. We're just talking about life, like how we're both new fathers. I'm afraid to jaywalk, you know? Yeah, I quit chewing. I chewed. Did you? Yeah, I quit chewing. Like, I was like, damn, this is a selfish-ass thing to be doing.

17:59Like, you turn 10 years old and I get, like, jaw cancer or something, you know? He and Alicia, they're making things happen. They founded a company they call We Adapt to mentor and serve the communities that Carlson escaped as a kid. So they're working with youth. They take these young people on mountain biking trips and all sorts of physical fitness stuff, mentoring. And he knows these kids look up to him because he's strong and because he's fought at war. But he's trying to teach them a different lesson about fighting than the one he grew up with. Like, I thought then that the value was the actual violence, being able to do that violence to other people.

18:35It just needed to be deserving people that you did the violence to, which is backwards. Like, now I fully believe and know that violence of any kind is wrong. It's the least effective way to do anything. Now, does that mean that they're just, if, like, you could snap your fingers and there's no violence? No, because there's still situations that I would be violent over, like my family's safety. And so you have to be able to do that. But you shouldn't want to do that. So again, he's talking about being that warrior in the garden. But it's one thing to talk about how to act. It's different when you get put to the test.

19:15And that's what happens next. I'm yelling at her, like, stop, stop, stop. And so I go in after her. And I'm playing in my mind. I'm like, I'm literally like a flashback to Iraq. We'll be right back with more from the Sunday story.

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20:51Their Undaria Algae Body Butter is a hit for everyone on your holiday list. Osea's Black Friday offer is on. Earn up to seven free gifts, including full sizes and exclusive merch. No code needed. More at oseamalibu.com. So Carlson is in law school. He's a paralegal. He's got a strong family and a growing business. And then this thing happens that could destroy it all. I'm literally just pulling in the on-ramp to Eau Claire, and I get a text. It's from a colleague. She has a client in trouble. The client's husband is threatening to rape and kill her in front of her kids. So Carlson and his colleague rush to her house.

21:31We devise this plan of, like, we tell the wife, get the kids in the vehicle, you get in the vehicle, as we're driving by. Just pick them up out front, not going into the house, because Carlson's got to protect himself, too, here. He's still on probation. So we pull into the driveway. And then the plan goes to hell. Carlson's colleague jumps out of the car and heads right into the house. I'm trying, I'm yelling, like, stop, stop, stop. And so I go in after her. Like, and I'm playing in my mind. I'm like, like, I'm literally, like, my brain is now processing this as if someone has just kicked the door and I'm second man in.

22:07So imagine being Dave Carlson, who did this for two years in Iraq. Amped up on adrenaline, kicking in a door and rushing in to maybe kill the people inside before they kill you. That was the mission. That was survival. So we get in. The wife is in the corner, like cowering in the corner. The husband is standing by the stairs. He's a bigger man, but Carlson is on him. He slammed into the wall. We're fighting down the fucking hallway. And I finally get him down. Like I put my, I think I put one leg around like a hook and jujitsu around his thigh. But this time, he's not having a PTSD flashback that he can't control.

22:47He's not having a relapse. In fact, he's keeping it together and just using the skills he learned as a soldier. I stretch out, and I'm just telling him, you need to relax, you need to relax. And he does. And then it's done. The guy stays down. The wife and kids are safe. The cops arrive. Carlson calls his probation officer. He expects to go to jail. I go straight to the courthouse. So I went straight to the gas station. I bought six hard-boiled eggs. I ate six hard-boiled eggs, went to the courthouse, and then waited. I understand everything except the eggs. Huh? Why did you eat six hard-boiled eggs?

23:24Oh, because I thought I was going to be in jail. You get hungry as hell. You get hungry as hell in jail. So if I'm going to go to booking. Hard experience has told you to fill up before you go to jail. Yeah, fill up. I thought for sure I was going to jail. Carlson knows things about jail. But this time, he also knows lawyers. And when he ends up before a judge, he knows what to say. And he doesn't go to jail. He goes home. And he keeps on studying. Then the next time I call Dave Carlson, it's to plan a trip to come see him and his wife. And there are now three boys in person. It's been almost exactly 10 years.

24:02And then I'm standing in the bleachers at Mitchell Hamlin Law School in St. Paul with his mom, Heidi, and Alicia, and their three boys who can't sit still. What's going on today? Huh? Daddy's going to be up there. And some of his siblings and a few of his formerly incarcerated friends are sitting together. Graduates, will you please stand as you're able for the awarding of your degrees?

24:30We hear keynote speaker talk and about how far many of these graduates have traveled to get here today. and I just can't help but smile to myself and think, I'm not sure there's anyone here who's come quite as far as Dave Carlson. David Carlson.

24:56When I started this story, I had this question. I wanted to know how Dave Carlson, how any combat vet, how anyone gets over war. Carlson went through some very dark times when he was punished for the crimes he committed with a really messed up PTSD brain. Despite this, he'll tell you he loves this country. He's proud of his service. When I went to visit him for the commencement, we sat down face to face to talk one more time. But before I could ask him my question about war, Dave Carlson did something I was not expecting. He asked me a question that's been on his mind. Why are you interested in a story like this?

25:39Oh, like you? Yeah. Oh. I didn't really have an answer, but Carlson did. He knew why I'd been doing this for a decade. So are you familiar with the concept of an Alcoholics Anonymous, like your recovery depends on the person, like the person you work with, their recovery? So like your support of this person isn't just part of their recovery, it's part of your recovery, right? Just as important. You're interconnected. I think you're part of this network. The same way that I'm part of your recovery, you're part of my recovery. And I saw what he meant. Dave Carlson has been part of my recovery. I want to be clear, I was a war correspondent, not a soldier.

26:26But I spent really hard years watching senseless destruction at war, and I lost people I loved. And so for me, coming home, the best thing I could have done was to talk to Dave Carlson and other veterans, and telling their stories helped me understand what we'd all been through and make sense of it and find a new purpose back here at home. As for my question about getting past war, the answer seemed clear to me. Dave Carlson had made it. We were sitting in his big house in Eau Claire. It's big enough for his three boys each to have their own bedrooms. There's a playground right down the street.