Dave Chappelle on free speech and the purpose of comedy | NPR’s Newsmakers

0:02Hello, this is Michelle Martin with a special episode of Up First, a conversation from our sister show, NPR's Newsmakers, where we interview some of the most influential people of our time. You can watch the show on NPR's YouTube channel or search for Newsmakers wherever you get your podcasts. Our guest today is comedian Dave Chappelle. My favorite part of my evolution was when I quit. Do you feel like your job is to be provocative? No, I don't court it. I just don't flinch from it. But if you're a person that's very angry or passionate about something and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across, you should assess your point.

0:50Dave Chappelle is one of the most influential stand-up comedians of our time. He's known for pushing the boundaries of what it's okay to say in public. He also uses his influence to advance the causes he believes in, in his art and in his community. Now, you probably know that, but what you may not know is that he lives here in Yellow Springs, Ohio. And that's where we begin our conversation. Thank you for having us. Oh, man, what an honor. What an honor. Tell us where we are. Well, this is my future offices for my production company in what they call the Old Union Schoolhouse in Yellow Springs, Ohio, which we have just completely renovated for our local NPR affiliate, WYSO.

1:37Is it too strong to say that you saved the station? Saved the station? No. I think the station would have survived and hopefully thrived without me. But what I did achieve is I kept them here in Yellow Springs. So our NPR affiliate has a very special relationship with the community. It's like our lifeblood. It's a connective tissue for our community. So if they had left, we would still listen. But it would have been demoralizing for us if they were to have to do that. And they had reached an impasse where they had got independence from the university. They used to be affiliated with Antioch. And they wanted to stay in town, but there was nothing available.

2:24The building was in disrepair, as I understand it. This place was a shambles. But, you know, when I was growing up, this building was vibrant. It was like a municipal building. You know, people would come here to pay their power bill and stuff like that. And then as the years went on, it had a few other purposes, but it just kind of got run down. Like most of the Midwest, it just kind of was looking for a new purpose. It was not an expensive building to buy. It was an expensive building to fix. Oh, yeah. But it was worth every penny. Remind us, if you would, because some people know your story, but everybody doesn't, why Yellow Springs is so important to you.

3:06And you live here now. I live here. I've been living here since like 2000. And you live live here. This is like your summer place. Like you live live here. Yeah, like my only homes are here. But I have many homes here. I'm from D.C. Both my parents are. But before I was born, my father worked at Antioch University. My mother worked at Wilberforce. They came back to D.C. I was born, and then maybe two years into my life, they separated. And my father moved back here. So I don't have many memories of them married, but he was very present in my life, and I would spend holidays and vacations here with him.

3:53So I guess I've always associated this place with relaxing. and around 90, 98, he passed. He was ailing for a while. So for a year, I would drive back and forth from New York to Ohio and at that time, there wasn't a hotel here. There was nowhere to stay. So I ended up buying a house. It was a small place so I could see my dad out. And then when he passed, I left New York and moved into the house and kind of packed up show business and didn't go back to New York until I did Chappelle's show. But I've just been here ever since. Yeah, but you can live wherever you want. This is like a heart place for you?

4:39Yeah. Well, I think early at that time in my career, I didn't know that I'd do as well as I did. And I figured I should build a lifestyle for myself that I can afford for a while so I could be more adventurous with my career. Well, I've also heard you say that you can feel normal here. without question. Tell me what that means. Nobody here really pays attention to what I'm doing out in the world. It's hard. I don't know what that's like for them, but I'm just a local here. In a small town, everyone knows everyone anyway. And they knew me poor. They knew me rich. They knew me in all these different incarnations of myself.

5:21So there's just a baseline of normalcy. you know everyone kind of grew up together you know we watched our kids grow older together and we all kind of segue in life together an old did you hear miss so-and-so pass did you you know you look after each other it's a real feeling of community here and you can just go to the store and get your whatever without i was grocery shopping before i came is that right yeah You didn't bring us anything. What did you bring us? Oh, I didn't bring no groceries. But, I mean, really, you can just go to the store and get milk and don't have to worry about somebody putting a camera in your face.

6:03No, people... No disrespect to cameras, but I'm just saying you can just go do your thing without feeling like you have to get dressed up. I'll take it even further than that. I feel like locally my privacy is something people feel they need to protect. Like if someone comes up like, hey, where's Deja Pelley? They just look out for me. They look out for my kids. They look out for my wife. I know their families. If they need stuff, they can call us. No one here is a complete stranger. That happens very rarely. The town is a tourist town, so there's always people around that I don't know, but I like that as well.

6:39I love people. I'm not living a hermit's life out here, but the rest of my life is so chaotic and so large and and dramatic and palace intrigue and whatever it is that happens in show business that i i i connect with the simplicity i do have time to think i have time to read i have time to hang out with my friends it's a nice you know it's a nice life it's a nice balance for the what my life is in in total

7:13This message comes from Working Forests Initiative. In American working forests, their professionals, from GIS analysts to biologists and even accountants, are committed to planting more trees than they harvest. They all have a role to play in planting for the future. Together, they aim to plant more than 1 billion seedlings in American working forests every year. They believe that protecting their working forests for tomorrow starts with planting more than they harvest today. Learn more at WorkingForestsInitiative.com. This message comes from Capital One with the Venture X Card. Earn unlimited double miles, a$300 annual Capital One travel credit, and access to airport lounges.

7:54Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Details at CapitalOne.com. Support for NPR and the following message comes from Rippling. Tired of using HR systems that feel fragmented and manual? Rippling unifies HR, IT, and finance into a single platform to run your business. In as little as 90 seconds, Rippling can onboard a new employee, automatically setting up payroll, benefits, devices, and corporate cards all from one place. It's a simpler way to run your business. Head to Rippling.com slash first and sign up today. That's R-I-P-P-L-I-N-G dot com slash first. In your recent Netflix special, The Unstoppable, you were talking about Yellow Springs and you said, I'm not a public servant.

8:40I'm a capitalist, but you're a capitalist and you came in to give a major boost to a public radio station. So is that an investment? Is it a service? Is it a philanthropy? Is it maybe all of the above? You know, when you think about what a comedian does for a living, people I'm successful because people take care of me because they believe in me because they buy tickets and get babysitters and go through trouble to come see me. And so I treat it like it's reciprocally special. I love being there as much as they love being there. And I think it's important for an artist like me, I'm not putting this on all artists, but for an artist like me, that relationship is something I'm true to in the sense that it's good that I demonstrate that I don't take it for granted that people are protective of my privacy and my community or that we have a radio station that tells our stories.

9:46Like my son interned at WYSO, and it ignited things in his mind and gave him aspirations that he didn't have before. I want to talk all about what his dreams are, but I'm just saying, here, this station really does touch our lives. It's not just radio here. Which, you know, there have been major figures, major, okay, I'll just say rich people who have wrapped their arms around media organizations before and it has gotten inconvenient for them or it's misaligned with their other business objectives and they've changed what the organization is. So do you feel confident that if this place becomes inconvenient to you, you're not going to, I don't know, cut the water off?

10:29Oh, here? Yeah, here. it's church and state look in fact the one only reason i'm doing press around it is because i think the ethical community needs to be amplified and i think that the the importance of public broadcasting needs to be amplified but other than that i like talking i like i'm a i'm a filthy nightclub comics since I'm a kid at my core. That's all I see myself as. And I don't want to say anything that gets them in trouble. I don't want their brand necessarily to be affiliated with me. I don't believe everything they say. They don't believe everything I say. And that's fine. But I like that NPR exists.

11:14Let's say, for the sake of argument, they cover a story involving some of your business interests in town in a way that you don't like. What are you going to do? Well, cross that bridge. I mean, you know, it's happened before. I've heard them say things or criticisms of my work on the station or on NPR. I mean, it's just that's part of my job. but the relationship that this place has with our community pre-exists my career. You know what I mean? I can't really take that personally. In fact, the more separate we are, I think the more comfortable we feel. But at the same time, you know, it's familial.

11:55Do you see journalism and comedy being related in some way? Incredibly. How so? Well, first of all, journalists determine what the baseline reality is. You guys, there's been times where I could write an act that's just a rebuttal to reporting. Right. Now, there's cable reporting, which is a lot more editorializing. What I like about NPR's reporting is fact-based, but she'll cut the meat. The journalist will ask the question, what does that mean? Tell us what that means. And the person will explain something. In the last three, the last 10 years, watching the news is like taking a civics class.

12:44Because there's so many things that are happening in politics and whatever that are unprecedented. And you have to explain to a person, well, this is why this is unusual. and I you know whatever the case may be this contextualization is what comedians do we're like a nation's kidney we help everyone metabolize not just facts but feelings around facts or ideas and in the last 15-20 years our culture and our media has been an avalanche of facts and ideas it's very difficult to sift through. And in that time, you've seen comedy rise up to the top of all genres because it does help people contextualize.

13:31Say more about that, about comedy being like the nation's kidneys. I've heard you say this before. You used some language I can't use, but it involved you know, as you put out, let's put it, how can we put it in ways that won't jeopardize my license? I'm like, I'm scared. What did I say? We're helping people process all the... Oh, yeah. We really do. But say more about that, because the implication then is that you're engaged with the... Dick Gregory once described Richard Pryor's work as brain surgery. Or if, you know, I don't want to get all into the specifics of the things I say on stage, but there's a lot of big ideas that people have feelings about, and there's no real context to conversate or rebut them.

14:25And jokes are just a shorthand for all of that. And sometimes it could be as simple as just laughing at something or making light at something just makes it feel less daunting. Do you feel like your job is to be provocative? I'm just thinking about the adjectives that are applied to you. Provocative, controversial, polarizing, any of that? No, I don't court it. I just don't flinch from it. Because at the core, man, again, my core, I'm a filthy nightclub actress. I started in smoky rooms in D.C. and black crowds and white crowds. And people had drinks and they just were gruff and said what they said back then.

15:09And it was never a big deal. And then as the time went on people you know the culture started trying to renegotiate itself and that's a great time to be a comedian when you say i'm thinking about the role that a lot of black comics have played for particularly for black people a lot of times it's it's a release it's too because a lot of times i think a lot of black people feel the way they have to navigate the world is to keep things stuffed down right that's fair so i think that a lot of black comedians their role has often been to give people a release to let them say the things that they can't say when they're going to their job or whatever whatever but now you are international i mean people all over the world watch you listen to you certainly not just black audiences listen to you and i wonder do you feel like your job is different now?

16:05Well, no. The mechanics are the same. Now I'm an ambassador of a genre more than I was. I'm an ambassador of American culture more than I was. If I put a show up in Berlin or Vienna and people come and see me, they're coming to see me as an American voice as much as a black one. Even though in the States they might not see it that way. Overseas, You know, I got all that flack for doing that festival in Saudi Arabia. But in Saudi, you know, I don't think that festival would have been legitimate if I wasn't there. Say more about that. Say more about that. I'm not the biggest comedian, but my voice is sought after.

16:48In Saudi Arabia, for like the last 20 years, they've been doing really maybe 15 years. they've been trying to do comedy shows in Saudi Arabia. Underground shows. The jokes were like contraband. These shows would happen in people's homes. They would happen in embassies. Comedians like Mars Jabrani and guys like this. They've been going over there for years and doing these shows. But privately? Quietly. Quietly. It wasn't close to being private. I don't know what their laws are. But for the elites, basically. People who... Not for necessarily the elites, but yeah, for people who could have a house like that.

17:29I don't know what those shows were like because I didn't do those shows. Okay, yeah. The first time I can remember doing a big show in the Middle East, my opening act was a guy named Mo Amber, who's Palestinian-American, you know, from Houston, but, you know, originally from Kuwait, but he's Palestinian. And Mo was probably on that circuit doing the secret shows in Saudi. and man the thing that was remarkable was the crowd reaction right before I went on stage it's actually funny right before I went on stage they gave me a list of all the things I wasn't supposed to address it was like right before I went on stage so I took the list on stage and that was the show I just did the list don't talk about the royal family is that y 'all and I just made fun of them man they were screaming screaming Then after the show, I'm backstage at a meet and greet.

18:26And there was all these young comedians from all over the Middle East. They were looking at me like I wouldn't even know that they'd know who I am. They couldn't believe I was there. They kept saying, you just say that? You just say that stuff? Yeah, I mean, yeah. It's not a big deal in my mind. But I never forgot that. And that was in Dubai. But man, in Riyadh, that crowd watching that comedy, the first time the government let them even see something like this, it was like a baby tasting sugar. If I had choked the tiger out, they couldn't have been more impressed. They were screaming. You think you're creating space for them?

19:11At the very least. And this is not nothing. That must have felt incredibly cathartic if you can't say everything you want to say. But you see somebody model that behavior. Oh, man, you're going to want it. So so if you think of all the violence and all the things we export to the Middle East, I think our culture is the best export we got. But I didn't feel wrong being up there. Yeah, I know you're talking about the comedy festival in 2025. You did get a lot of fall. You did get a lot of, I don't know what you'll, pushback or criticism for going among other people. Okay, the intelligence, U.S. intelligence did make it clear that they believe that the Saudis killed Jamal Khashoggi and the embassy in Turkey.

19:54You knew that when you went, right? Oh, absolutely. I should tell you. You had no qualms? I won't say that. They asked me to go years before that. And I said no for that very reason. And since that time, the United States government does business with the Saudis. Netflix does business with the Saudis. Everyone, the Saudis financed tons of movies. All these, I know, I see them financing boxing matches and all these things. And none of these things were an issue until I went there. Now, why is that? As soon as a black man can make money off the plantation, they try to tell you that the money is dirty.

20:30Well, okay, I'll go home and spend the money with actual slave owners on it. Where is this clean money you're talking about? But you said you hesitated for years to go, the years you didn't go. So what made the difference for you? Time. Time and circumstance. Time and the wheels of commerce kept turning. You know, if you want to be that pure about money, then stop driving your car, stop eating, don't use your cell phone. Everything is tethered to something that's just terrible. and I can make a million excuses or reasons to deprive that crowd of that show. But man, when I was standing in front of them, I feel like I did the right thing.

21:09Our governments are going to ruin everything for us. We'll never get to know each other if we just do everything that they want to do or function on the terms that they want us to function. And we don't even really know what's going on. Not for sure. Well, artists have always made these decisions. I mean, there were these decisions in South Africa under apartheid. You know, there were decisions about whether artists should go there or not go. And then the question is, are you validating the system or are you resisting it with your presence? I mean, look, in the middle of apartheid, if I went and played Sun City, I'd say I'm a bad person.

21:43But if I went and played Soweto, why would I not do that? You know, OK, I'll give you another example. It's not a good example. I'm doing a show there's a police officer killed a black person and the black community asked me to cancel the show. We don't want artists to come, we want to boycott. Was that in Ohio? Was that in Cincinnati? It was in Cincinnati. And I respected their wishes. Or we could have gotten together and talked about it. And I like I mean, I'm going to say I like doing it, but I do that often when Minneapolis was going through it. Maybe when they, I was in Paris when they killed Alex Preddy.

22:33And, man, I booked the show in Minneapolis right after they killed that guy. Man, they're going to need to talk about this. And that was nerve-wracking. Another situation, Topps Market in Buffalo. Yeah, Buffalo. Man killed like 10 black people. And black people unprovoked in the grocery store. That happened right after I got tackled in L.A. at the Hollywood Bowl. But, man, I went to Buffalo. You know, it's not that I think that jokes help, but you can console certain communities with your presence or just acknowledging that you see them and that you hurt with them. You feel like you're lancing the boil in a way for people or just what, giving them a place to feel their feelings or?

23:17Okay, well, one is mutual. the Topps Market thing would be so upsetting that I want to be there. You know, like I have a friend from Buffalo who's, that's their local grocery store. His mother shops there. Like, thank God she was all right. But it just, it hits close to home. But what about people who feel like you're punching down? Like you're not, you are not a trans person. And there are people who feel like it's different when you are part of the group that has been attacked, hurt, demeaned, et cetera. And then if you're outside of that group and you're having commentary about it, it causes feelings.

23:54And what do you say to people who feel that in some occasions you're punching down? Well, okay, this is a conversation that, you know. You're bored by, sick of? Yeah, I'm not sick of it. I don't want to be dismissive to that sentiment, but I don't know. that's a tough one for me because so much of that was a media phenomenon. What was happening in actual life versus how the media was reporting on my show. And I feel like the way they were put on that show was rage baiting to some degree. And there's so many different branches to talk about it. But I would say that, you know, not everything is for everybody.

24:38I don't tell country artists what to sing about if I'm not going to go see a country show. You know, if they bought tickets ever, maybe I'd listen. I don't know. They're just never there. I don't even know who's telling them I say these things. Do you feel like your jokes are misrepresented? I do. You think they're misrepresented for a purpose, which is to get clicks, whatever. It's almost, well, some reporting was as if, they almost reported on it as if I was doing something other than a comedy show. Hmm. you know I could go on and on about this but I gotta be interesting so like you're saying look I'm a comedian everybody knows that I'm a comedian so if you don't like my humor don't buy a ticket.

25:25Reading a joke is a lot different than sitting in a room and hearing it and part of the sitting in the room part part of one of the reasons comedy works is because everyone there bought a ticket clearly they want it to work They want to have a good time. They want to have fun. But if you're a person that is very angry or passionate about something and you're afraid that you're going to be misrepresented or misconstrued and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across, you should assess your point.

26:06This message comes from Working Forests Initiative. In American working forests, their professionals, from GIS analysts to biologists and even accountants, are committed to planting more trees than they harvest. They all have a role to play in planting for the future. Together, they aim to plant more than 1 billion seedlings in American working forests every year. They believe that protecting their working forests for tomorrow starts with planting more than they harvest today. Learn more at WorkingForestsInitiative.com. This message comes from Capital One with the Venture X Card. Earn unlimited double miles, a$300 annual Capital One travel credit, and access to airport lounges.

26:47Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Details at CapitalOne.com. I heard you say when you received the Mark Twain Award, which is a very big honor and congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, it's really the highest recognition that this country really gives somebody in your field. And one of the things that you said that struck me was that if you go to a comedy club somewhere in America, your feelings and thoughts are represented. Every opinion has a champion. Say more about that, though. Why do you think that matters? Because it's important because every opinion that you could think of is championed in a room.

27:34I don't silence your champions. In fact, I make space for your champions to have a voice. But I'm not your champion, and I am someone else's. You can't silence the team that you don't like, what they're saying. But you do have the opportunity to go on after them, say your piece. you know man this has happened to me so many times in my career a guy will say something and I'll feel a way about it I don't think that they should be silenced but I can't wait to put me up next and I'm going to have what I have to say about it and then afterwards we go upstairs we might talk shit but we have we're fairly cordial There's people who say things I don't like all the time.

28:31I go to their kids' birthdays. I go to their funerals. These are the comedians I came up with. And if I see these same people throughout my life, then clearly they're part of my community. And everyone's in it. There's trans stand-up comedians. There's every sexuality, every kind of identity. And we support one another. You know what's interesting, though? So, you know, we are in a time when I know you talked about comedians as being like the nation's kidney who process like all the things that people feel like all of it. Right. The president of the United States says everything. I mean, he we are in a moment where the president of the United States expresses things in a way he expresses things that many people find deeply offensive.

29:19He expresses them in a way that many people find deeply offensive and hurtful. And I'm just wondering, does that change your work? Because it's one thing to be a person who articulates the rawness when the rest of the world is buttoned up. But what about when the rest of the world isn't buttoned up? And I just wonder if that changes things for you. You know what I'm saying? And he's a bad example because he has a dismissive shorthand about people. Like a comedian who flew up there talking, it's a way different type of interface than, say, being president of the United States. Oh, it's a totally different job.