Gisèle Pelicot Tells Her Story

0:00I'm Aisha Roscoe, and you're listening to the Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. Before we start, a warning. Today's episode discusses sexual assault. In September of 2024, Giselle Pellico took the stand in an unprecedented mass rape trial in France. On trial was her former husband, along with 50 other men. In 2020, police found images and videos of her husband and dozens of men raping her while she was drugged and unconscious. Pelico had the right to remain anonymous and keep the trial behind closed doors. But she chose to open the trial.

0:56In the beginning, I did want it to be a closed trial. because I was ashamed. But I walk a lot. So as I was walking, it sort of started coming to me little by little. I said to myself that the shame needed to change sides. And by having the closed trial, I was giving them a gift. The trial was widely broadcast and drew international attention while provoking a national reckoning in France. All of the defendants were found guilty and Pellico's former husband received a maximum 20-year sentence. Now Giselle Pellico has written a book about her experience. It's called A Hymn to Life. She recently spoke with my colleague, Michelle Martin, through an interpreter in Paris.

1:50They talked about the pain of discovering what had been happening to her. When I saw those photos, I did not recognize myself. I did not recognize that woman. The harm it did to her family. It's false to think that this type of tragedy brings people closer together. It doesn't. And also about her decision to speak up on behalf of victims of sexual assault. When we come back, we're sharing that powerful conversation. Stay with us.

2:32We're back with a Sunday story. Here's NPR's Michelle Martin with Giselle Pellico. Madame Pellico, it's a great honor to speak with you. And I know that sometimes you don't enjoy these accolades, but it is a great honor to speak with you. Merci à vous. Moi aussi je suis ravie de vous rencontrer. Thank you. She's very happy to meet you as well. So let's start with the book. What made you want to write it?

3:05I didn't have the intention of writing a book at all. But during the trial, proposals came in. And then I started thinking that maybe this could be helpful. Maybe what was happening to me could help other people. It could serve a purpose. And the message basically is that no matter what kind of difficulties, struggles, trials and tribulations we're going through, We have to gather our strength and we can stand up to it. The book is very beautifully written. And I wondered if you knew that you had a gift for words. Or is this another gift or strength that you found within yourself after you went through these traumatic events?

3:51I wrote this book with Judith Perignon, who's an amazing writer and journalist. And she was very open-minded and she helped me work through a lot of the difficulties that I experienced. And she had a very open ear, an open mind, and was a great listener. And I trusted her completely. Did you understand before these events that you had this gift of storytelling, of being able to share your story?

4:29No, I didn't really know that I had a gift at all. It's just about telling my family's story. I go through three generations, three women, my grandmother and my mother, three women who, and I'm telling about their pain, their suffering, their joie de vivre, lust for life, and their resilience. And so I look deep inside myself, and I just found meaning in all of that. First, let me just say that, you know, I have many questions, but if there's something that I ask you that you don't want to answer, please just tell me. Tout ce qui sera rapport au lit, je pourrais répondre. I can answer anything and everything related to the book.

5:08So the first thing I wanted to ask is that you, when you describe, when you first learned from the police of these terrible things that your ex-husband had done to you, one of the things that you said, and this is revealed in the transcript, is you said, I don't know where I am. Can you just say more about that?

5:39when I was first called to the police station and Lieutenant Perry shows me photos he shows me three photos and I don't recognize myself photos of what Mr. Pelico had done to me and I just don't recognize that woman I don't recognize the place I don't recognize anything there and then it hit me like a TGV or a high-speed train is what I say That's how I describe it. There was this explosion inside me, and then it was like a tsunami. I said, I don't know who that woman is. And he said, but that's your bedroom. That's your lampside table. That's you. I just couldn't fathom that Mr. Pellico could have done those things to me.

6:23That's what I wanted to ask about. Is it that you literally did not recognize yourself because you had been drugged? or is it that your brain could just not accept that someone you loved and who you thought loved you could do that?

6:41Yeah, well, when I saw those photos, I did not recognize myself. I did not recognize that woman. It was like some ragdoll disguised, and I didn't recognize the people around me. It's like my brain just wouldn't, couldn't understand it. I dissociated. My brain dissociated. And I spent many hours at the police station. And when I got home, I spent like three, four hours. It took me a long time to actually say the word rape. And for that to actually creep into my mind, I couldn't even fathom it. Do you recall when you were finally able to fathom it?

7:24No, it was very, very difficult for me to realize that. This was someone I'd spent 50 years with.

7:37I couldn't even think of it. I just couldn't imagine that he would do those things to me. And it's not like it was just a single person. There were 53 people arrested and convicted. And there's still some 20 or 30 who weren't arrested. there's 20, 30 who are out there. I only really got to know side A of Mr. Pelico, where he was kind and well-intentioned. But I never really got to know the side B of him that was not, and who did all these terrible things to me. It was very difficult. One of the things that struck me about the book is that you came to learn that some of the people who did these things to you were people you encountered every day.

8:21I mean, people you might pass in the supermarket or on the street. And I just wonder how you think about that now when you're out in the world. Do you ever think perhaps someone you might pass in the street is also someone who did these things?

8:49Well, actually, I only ever met one of the individuals outside of that situation. It was someone I would see at the bakery. But no, I couldn't imagine that that person would come to my home and rape me, go to someone's house and rape someone who's sedated by medication that Mr. Pellico would give me at night with my meals or in drinks. And when I would go shopping, Mr. Pellico would have these people set up meetings for them to see me and check me out as I was doing my grocery shopping. No, it's unimaginable. It's unthinkable. I couldn't imagine these individuals. And even one of them, the one I was referring to at the Baker's, he was young.

9:27He was in his 40s and he had four children. He had come to the house to buy bike tires or something. It was a made up excuse. and he even denied that he was involved in any rape or anything whatsoever. No, it's just unthinkable. But one of the things that really strikes me about the book, one of the things that I found so moving about the book was so many things, but that you refused to give up the side of Mr. Pelico that you knew before. You insist on this. throughout the book, you insist that the part of your life that was happy, you want it to be honored and understood and respected. And I was so struck by that, and I wanted to ask if you could say more about that.

10:21Yeah, I remember, of course, I try to remember the happy parts. Otherwise, it would just mean that those 50 years were nothing but a lie. So I needed to believe that those 50 years weren't alive to keep on living. So I just tried to remember only the best. We had happy times. There were happy times. We were married really young. We fell in love really young. We had three kids. We had seven grandkids. I can't erase that. That's part of me. What I do try and erase, though, is the darkness of Mr. Pellico. I try and forget that. But you can't really forget because the scars are indelible. You can't make them go away.

11:01But the really bad parts, I just try and take that and throw it in the trash. The other thing that you're very honest about in the book, which I also found very moving, was that the abuse was visited upon you, but your entire family suffered for it. that the relations with the children, your children, became very strained at various times. And I wonder if you could say more about why you think that happened. Why is that?

11:40Yeah, as I said, it was an explosion that just rippled through the entire family. And it's false to think that this type of tragedy brings people closer together. It doesn't. Everyone is trying to heal and sort of rebuild at their own pace. Relations are better with Caroline now. They've settled down a bit. Your daughter? Yes. I realized that she was expressing and harboring a lot of hate and a lot of anger. It's what had happened, what was done to her mother. And, you know, we have different relationships. Her relations are difficult with her father, but it's a different relationship because I was the wife, the mother, and she's the daughter.

12:20And it's still very difficult because there were not only pictures of Caroline, but there were pictures of my daughter-in-laws as well. So everyone's just trying to move through this as best they can and at their own pace, and it's taking time. And of course, one of the things that many people in the world most admire about you is that you chose to have the trial be open. It was your choice as the victim. You could have had a closed trial. And in fact, through most of the trial preparation, that had been your plan. And you changed your mind. You write about this extensively in the book, but would you say more about that now?

12:59Why did you decide to open the trial?

13:04It's true, in the beginning, I did want it to be a closed trial because I was ashamed. But I walk a lot. So as I was walking, it sort of started coming to me little by little. I said to myself that the shame needed to change sides. And by having the closed trial, I was giving them a gift. All these people, all these men, their names wouldn't have been known and what they did wouldn't have been known to the world. And it was just about suffering. And I realized that part of this trial was not just my trial, but this was a trial for all the women who suffered sexual violence, all women who'd suffered rape.

13:51And in fact, this was me doing this was sort of for all of these women, for these women who supported me. And I had thousands of letters coming from people around the world supporting this. And it just gave me so much strength. Can you say more about those letters or the people who communicated with you? Were there any that stand out even now?

14:16Well, I never really realized that my voice, what I was saying would echo throughout the world, well beyond our borders. Then like the international press started coming in and there were letters from the U.S., there were letters from Spain, there were letters from Italy, from pretty much all countries. A lot of them I had to have translated because I couldn't read all the languages. It's just that my situation echoed with theirs and their suffering and their identity. And I realized that we really, things needed to change. The shame needed to change sides. We had to have a collective awareness raising because we couldn't allow things to continue to go on the way they were.

14:55But even today, we're seeing similar situations. And ultimately, it turns out that that was just the, you couldn't see the forest for the trees. It's just the beginning. Was that shocking to you that so many people found resonance in your experience? No, not really. It's just their support gave me so much strength. They gave me the strength to hold up during the three to four months of the trial. It's just OK. I don't know if I could say I'm happy, but I gave my name to the cause. And I just felt because of them and for them that I was committed that I had to do something. I had to find a way to thank them for their support.

15:43Of course, it was not all support. There's a long history of victims of sexual violence being blamed for it or being told that they are complicit in some way. And this also happened. There was the implication that you were part of some swingier community, etc. How did you cope with that?

16:11Through the trial, of course, I was completely humiliated. I experienced total humiliation. I was considered consenting, complicit, a suspect. And when I was able to speak, I said, I'm the only guilty party here with 50 victims behind me. I think what saved me is that we had the evidence. We had the proof. whereas in a lot of cases women don't have proof they don't have evidence it's the woman's word against the assailant I guess part of all this was really about when victims speak out they need to be heard they need to be recognized because what happens is the accused parties always turn the situation around and say that they're being victimized they're being accused and they're being victimized because they're being accused and that's what helped me keep standing throughout this whole trial is that I wanted them to be convicted.

17:05I wanted them to be put away for what they did. So that's why I was able to stand tall, be dignified, and keep going on because I knew that they were guilty and I was not guilty despite the defense trying to say that I was.

17:22You're listening to The Sunday Story. We'll be right back.

17:31It may seem like a ridiculous question given everything that you experienced but what was the most difficult part of this whole experience?

17:46Well, it was when I found out what had really happened the reality of what really occurred it was having to call my children. there are difficult things you're going to have to tell your children you're going to have to call them at times to announce a death or an illness or whatever but calling my children to tell them having to tell them what their dad had done that was very very very painful and again this may seem ridiculous but is there any part of this experience that stands out as as a blessing, if I may put it that way.

18:29First of all, I'm happy to be alive. I thank the universe that I'm still standing. I'm not having the blackouts anymore. I don't have the memory loss. I'd seen so many neurologists, gynecologists. Went under the radar for all of them. I think that had Mr. Pellico continued doing what he was doing, I wouldn't be here today. So I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky to be here with you. I'm lucky to be able to speak out. I'm lucky to help and support other victims whenever I get a chance to talk to them. I want to tell them, don't doubt yourself. Don't doubt that little voice that's telling you what you need to do.

19:05So, yeah, I'm very lucky just to be alive and to be here and in good health and still standing tall. And, Madame, you know this already, but your dignity and resiliency through all of this stands as a beacon to so many people. And I'm just wondering if you feel that you have some words of wisdom for other people who may be experiencing something unimaginable, something that has helped you to continue to stand in your dignity and your resiliency.

19:46I would say first of all, don't lose your self-confidence. Listen to that voice that takes you in the right direction. I had doubts. Everybody has doubts. I had doubts at times. But I would tell them, don't have shame. Don't be ashamed. Don't be afraid. Confront your aggressor. We all have a force. We all have a strength inside that we can use to help us drive forward. Keep your eyes on the future, look ahead, and just look ahead and stand tall in your dignity. And of course, the question that remains is why? Why would someone do this to someone, especially someone that they claim to love? Do you think you'll ever have an answer?

20:38I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever have the answer to that question. I do know that I choose light. I choose to move towards the light. Mr. Pelico, he chose darkness and went into the depths of human depravity. I didn't know. I didn't see it in him. Will I ever have the response, What's the answer to that? I don't know. Yes, he did say that I was the love of his life. He even said at the hearing, at the trial, he said it then I was the love of his life. How could someone put someone else in danger like that offer her up to others? I said I'm a martyr. I was raped over 200 times over 10 years.

21:21I had illnesses and had to take antibiotics and even had a procedure at the end of this year. I'm fine now, but yeah, I have to ask how, why, how could someone do that? How could you treat, how could a human being do something like that to someone who's the love of their life? I don't, the question is still open. And toward the end of the book, you suggest that at some point you might speak to Mr. Pelico again and ask these questions of him, even though you don't necessarily expect an answer. Have you done that? Have you spoken to him since?

22:01No, so far I have not. I never was able to talk to him, never was able to exchange with him. I only spoke to the judge, so I never addressed him directly. Yeah, I do intend to speak with him, to exchange with him. It's part of my rebuilding, part of my reconstruction. We spent over 50 years together. We had three children together, seven grandchildren together. Yeah, I do intend to speak to him, and I hope I'll get some answers, but I may not. Before we let you go, you end the book with an extraordinary statement. statement you write I still need to believe in love I received it intensely and too briefly from my parents and for a long time I believed that it protected me from everything I even believed that I knew how to give it I now know that it comes from a deep wound within me that makes me vulnerable but I accept that fragility that risk still to fight the emptiness I need to love it's an extraordinary statement from really from anyone, but especially from someone who has been so deeply hurt by someone who claims to love her.

23:12And I just wondered where does that come from? This ability, not just this need to love, but the ability to still love. Can you explain it?

23:32Well, first of all, I'm a humanist, and so I'm someone who cares a lot and pays a lot of attention to other people. I think love can save the world. At 73 years old, I had the great fortune of meeting someone. Life put someone on my path, a wonderful man, a wonderful soul, kind person with values. And I've just had the great fortune of being in love again. And I just think that you have to believe. You have to believe in life. You have to trust. and I think if you don't love, you don't exist. If I don't love, I don't exist. And I need to keep on loving. Yeah, I do indeed. Well, as I said, it's been a great, great honor and a privilege to speak with you.

24:15And I think you're extraordinary. And I am so grateful that you survived and I'm so thankful that you were able to speak with us and to tell your story. I thank you. And I had a great time spending this time with you. That was NPR's Michelle Martin talking with Giselle Pellico. Her book, A Hymn to Life, will be released this Tuesday, February 17th.