Gov. Wes Moore on Iran, pardon power, and his future | NPR's Newsmakers

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0:28Westmore is the Democratic governor of Maryland. He's considered a rising Democratic star, and he's sometimes talked about as a future presidential candidate. Moore is also an American combat veteran, and that was relevant to the discussion we had here in the Maryland Statehouse. I want to ask about some news. What are you thinking as your former unit, the 82nd Airborne Division, is deployed to the Middle East? I've had a lot of conversations with some of the folks that I serve with. In fact, recently, as early as this morning, there was always something that we knew as paratroopers, as members of the 82nd, or just frankly, anybody in the military, is that you never authorize military force unless, A, military force was the last option.

1:16B, we had an understanding of what the mission and the end game was. And C, you were spending your time and your energy building the right kind of coalition that could help to be successful in advance. The problem with this mission is none of those things have A, not been accomplished, but I'm not sure if any of the three of them have even been thought about. Because there is no one who could argue that military action was the last resort on this mission. Nobody. There's nobody that can argue that we understand what the mission is or mission accomplishment is or the end game. And it's not because we're being naive.

1:53It's because we've all heard maybe a dozen things from the president himself. And the third thing, when we talk about an international coalition, I mean, that's almost laughable. When you look at the fact that there is not an international coalescing around this that's going to help us to accomplish the mission. so um so i remember when i was speaking in fact i was speaking with a person i serve with this morning and i told him i said i'm just i'm praying for our paratroopers i'm praying for their family members and honestly i'm praying for the leadership of this country i'm praying for the president i'm praying for the secretary of defense i'm praying that god give them guidance and vision.

2:36I'm praying that God give them an understanding of the men and women and their families who they're asking to actually do the work, because I think that's been lost in all this. And I'm praying that we have leadership that can actually meet this moment. When you talk about defining the mission, that's in a broad strategic sense. I want to ask a tactical question as someone who served, there is talk of sending these troops perhaps to seize an island. You wouldn't attack Iran, the mainland, but you might try to seize an island. What does it take for a few thousand American troops to seize an island under fire?

3:13Well, let's also, let's be, you know, be clear that there is no mission that is as easy as advertised. You know, when people talk about, well, you know, it's just a plot of land. You don't think the Iranians have thought about that? That the Iranians have thought about that for years? That we've been preparing for that for years? Ironically, I was talking with a guy that I both serve with and also trained with. And he contacted me probably a couple weeks ago. And he said, remember in training, when we used to run battle drills on Iran and how complicated it was? We're talking 25 years ago. This is not a new phenomenon.

3:48So this idea that somehow this would be easy to do is laughable. And so I think that both the idea of the taking over of territory, or if they're talking about utilizing them or special operators to be able to seize enriched uranium, or if they're talking about using it to help to take over the Strait of Hormuz, or if they're talking about using them to go into Tehran, the thing that I would just remind people of this, let's not pretend like the Iranians have not been running battle drills on this for decades. As long as Americans have been training for it. As long as Americans have been training for this.

4:30The president never did address the nation. No. Should he? Yes. And in fact, he addressed the nation a few days before and said nothing about it. And so, you know, we are, to be clear, and it's important for people to understand this. We are a nation at war right now. And I know it might not feel like it to many Americans. We are a nation at war. And we have not either been spoken to from the President of the United States. We have not been asked to sacrifice anything as a country. We don't have a measurement of explanation as to what is going on. We are just simply asking a very small portion of our population to go on and take on this weight, while, by the way, we're asking the rest of the population to pay more in gas prices, to pay more in food prices, to be able to watch health care being pulled away and food security being pulled away without any understanding of how these two things actually, how these things actually translate and are connected to one another.

5:37So no, the president of the United States owes it to the people of this country. If you are going to do this, if you're going to take on the most solemn choice, choice, as a president of the United States and as commander in chief, you owe it to the American people and you owe it to these soldiers, these sailors, these airmen, these Marines and their family members to explain what it is that we're doing and what it is that we're all asked to be sacrificed. Even if you disagree with starting the war, does the United States now have to fight it through to a victory because a victory by Iran would be so disastrous?

6:07But what does a victory by the United States mean? What does a victory by the United States look like? How would you define that if you were president? No one has articulated that. Because right now, here's what we're on pace for. We're on pace for a conflict that has cost about a billion dollars a day, that has driven up gas prices over a dollar since this conflict began all across the United States of America. And we're not on pace for a regime change. were not on pace for a complete seizing of all the enriched uranium, or that Iran would now be on any detoured path for a nuclear weapon, what does victory actually look like?

6:54And frankly, what I'm hearing from the administration, even what they're claiming as, you know, we've won the war, this is not victory. What they're claiming for, what it seems like they're seeking is some kind of quiet exit strategy from something that I think that the reason we're here is because of the lack of planning that has gotten us here in the first place. How would you have handled Iran if it was in your lap and it was back in February before the shooting started, and you know there's these negotiations going on, you know that Israel regards Iran as a threat, the United States has concerns about Iran's nuclear program, what would you have done?

7:27I think we all have concerns about Iran's nuclear program because I do think we are dealing with a nation that had they gained access to a nuclear weapon would have no problem in using it. So I think there was a bipartisan consensus for how that Iran should not have a nuclear weapon and that there needed to be not just a bipartisan consensus, but there was an international consensus about our ability to be able to prevent them from doing that. That's why the negotiations were so important. That's why being able to actually come up with a nuclear deal became so important. You would have kept negotiating then.

8:02I think until someone could tell me, until intelligence told me that we are now hitting a point that we have an imminent threat on our hands and all forms of negotiation had hit a brick wall, then that's the moment, like I said, when we talk about how military force should be the last resort, that's when I think military force is something that you then tend to look at. But I don't think there's anybody who is arguing that we were at that point. Telsey Gabbard, the director of national intelligence, said the president was the one who would be allowed to define the imminent threat, and that he did.

8:37Well, I also think the president needs to understand that if you're dealing with the imminent threat through warfare, then whether or not the president of the United States is the one to make a final authorization is one thing. But then you still need to notify Congress and that people still need to have an understanding as to what is going on. that the president of the United States has not just the immoral, but the legal authority to protect the homeland. We understand that, and we agree with that. But if you can't argue that there was an eminent threat that required you to put the country at war, then that's where this gets very difficult and very murky, and frankly, I think it's indefensible.

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11:00I'm talking about stories that make you miss appointments. This is American Life, wherever you get your podcasts. We're talking during a week that is the anniversary of an event here in Maryland, the collapse of the Key Bridge outside of Baltimore. So two years ago, that happened in 2024. In 2025, as many people will know, you had an exchange of words with the president, and he threatened to cut off funding for repairing that bridge, rebuilding that bridge. In early 2026, though, things had progressed to the point where you put out a joint statement with Sean Duffy, the transportation secretary, hailing progress.

11:37What changed? Well, I think nothing changed. I think what happened was we've just continued what has been historic progress. I mean, Maryland has put on a case study on how to respond in moments of crisis. Because at, you know, 2.02 in the morning, on March 26, two years ago, when I first heard about this, you know, a ship the size of three football fields collapsing into our iconic key bridge, you know, immediately we sprung into action. Putting the state on a state of emergency, working with state and local and federal partners. When they told us it was going to take 11 months to clear the federal channel, we got it cleared in 11 weeks.

12:14when they told us it could take years to be able to get permitting done, to be able to fix a bridge, because this bridge is nearly two miles long. We got permitting done in months that we were able to bring closure and comfort to the six families who lost loved ones, construction workers who were working that night. That when they said it could take five to seven years to get to a 70 % design build for the bridge, we got it done in 14 months. This has been this is the fastest moving large project in America right now. In Maryland, we are showing that we move fast and we get big things done. And we've been working with our federal partners, first in the Biden administration and now working with Secretary Duffy, the Department of Transportation.

12:57He's been collaborative, whatever the president may have said. I think that Secretary Duffy has been a very good partner on this because whether it's working on the key bridge together or whether it is working on the American Legion Bridge. Another bridge that's needing rebuilding. Another major bridge that's needing, and another bridge that we plan on getting done on our time. So I'm very clear that we will work with anybody to be able to get this done. If you look at the 100 % cost share that we have for the key bridge, that came from a bipartisan group, Democrats and Republicans in Congress, who all voted to get that 100 % cost share for the key bridge.

13:32And so I'm thankful because this project is moving fast. It is moving safely. And I think Maryland is really putting on a case study about how to respond in crisis and how to get big things done. I want to ask about bipartisanship. You and I shared a stage recently with a couple of your fellow governors, one of whom was Kevin Stitt, Republican of Oklahoma, very conservative. And he made a statement that you agreed with. He said that the government should promote equal opportunity, not equal outcomes, which in my mind is a line that is used as sometimes a jab against progressives. But you agreed with it.

14:08I wholeheartedly agree with him. Why? Because I believe that the promise of America is that everyone in America, you know, I'm not saying that everyone in this country needs to end up at the same spot. But I believe everyone in this country deserves a fair shot. And that's, that distance is where I think this country has had historic challenges. Where I think you have some people who think that the definition of fairness is everyone ends up in the same spot. Right. Including some people in your party, would you say? Absolutely. Yeah. And I just fundamentally disagree because I don't think that the answer for everybody should be the same.

14:45It's the same reason why here in the state of Maryland, we push so hard on things like alternative pathways for education, where we have made historic investments. I've quadrupled the number of apprenticeship and trade slots that we have within our state. We've gotten rid of this idea that we should be grading or evaluating our high schools based on their four-year college acceptance rate. Because I'm like, that is a key input, but it's not a key performance indicator that I want to make sure that every single student in our state has a chance for lifelong work, wages, and wealth. And if that includes a four-year degree, fantastic.

15:20And if it does not, fantastic. That we need to make sure that every single person in our state has a chance for lifelong opportunities and economic growth and sustainable economic mobility. But we should not be telling each and every one of them what it should look like. Meaning that people should approach things differently. I'm curious as I listen to you, Marylanders will know that you just had to deal with closing a budget deficit or that lawmakers did. You have big deficits in your future. Education is part of the reason. Is the very education program you described part of the problem or part of the challenge?

15:53No, because I think that, you know, there's a few things that I think the people of my state know. You know, one is that we believe in fiscal discipline, fiscal responsibility that, you know, we've now passed, we've done something that people in Washington seemingly can't do. I've now passed four budgets, balanced budgets that have actually where the general fund is smaller than the year before. So since I've been the governor, we have forced our state to do more with less. But do you know what's also happened during that time period, even though we are, you know, repeatedly shrinking the size of our state budget?

16:25it. What's also happened is we've increased our math and reading scores in every single grade inside of the state of Maryland. What's also happened is we have the fastest drops in violent crime anywhere in the United States of America here in the state of Maryland. What's also happened is that we have one of the fastest job growth rates in the entire country in the state of Maryland. We've gone from 43rd in the country in unemployment to now having an unemployment rate that is systemically lower than the national average, that we've added nearly 100 ,000 new jobs since I've been the governor, and 35 ,000 new businesses have been added to the state of Maryland since I've been the governor.

17:02So I think what we've been able to show is that you can be fiscally disciplined, but also be very smart about what you're investing in. And I think one of the things that you have to invest in, you've got to invest in education, and you've got to invest in public education, and you've got to invest in your community colleges, the places where the vast majority of our students are getting their educational pathways, because that's also what makes a certain jurisdiction very attractive to business and economic growth. I want to ask about another potential point of bipartisan agreement that might surprise people.

17:34Elon Musk recently was asked why he had not given away more of his hundreds of billions of dollars in wealth. And he was quoted as saying, I don't think that money can be given away very effectively. He didn't think philanthropy works. You and I were just talking before this interview about your own skepticism about philanthropy. Are you on the same page as Elon Musk? Well, we do have a lot of agreement. And ironically, I ran one of the largest poverty fighting organizations in this country before I ran for governor. It's like, no, I don't come from a political background or a political world or political family.

18:08You know, this is the first office I've ran for in my life. And before I ran this, I ran something called the Robin Hood Foundation. And I remember when they first approached me about it, I told them that I'm not sure if I'm the right person for this job to be the CEO, because I'm naturally skeptical of philanthropy, where I oftentimes feel like philanthropy, you know, philanthropy for many places is almost like philanthropy for philanthropists. Like they give away money because it makes them feel better, but they're not actually helping to address the problem. Because if you're not addressing policy, and if you're not addressing some of these lawmakers that are making really bad decisions, then you're not actually interested in solving the problem.

18:46You're just simply asking yourself to clean up the debris that comes from broken systems. And so I think that philanthropy has an obligation. They've got an obligation that, yes, if you want to give away money to support after-school programs, fantastic. If you want to give away your money to support food programs, great. But if you're not spending your time figuring out why there's so many people who don't have food, and if you're not figuring out why there's so many people who are finishing high school and aren't ready for college or careers, or if you're spending your time, you say, I'm giving my money towards criminal justice reform.

19:20Well, put your money towards why there needs to be reforms in the first place. Policy matters in this. And that's why when I first became the CEO of Robinhood, we actually created, for the first time in the organization's 30-year history, a policy wing. Because you cannot say you're actually interested in solving the problem if you're not actually addressing why the problem exists in the first place. You are implicitly criticizing a lot of organizations by what you're saying. 100%. There's a lot of foundations you think are not getting their money's worth. They're not aiming at systemic problems, I guess is the way you do it.

19:51They're not. And honestly, I think you're also seeing a challenge in the way philanthropy is even structured, right? Because if you have philanthropies oftentimes that are serving as C3s, you know, one of the things— 501C3. Sorry, 501C3s. Correct. Nonprofit status. One of the challenges of nonprofit status is it means that inherently you cannot be involved in political activities. So you're telling me you want me to help to fix a problem without helping to address why the problem is there in the first place. So there's something structurally wrong and backwards about that. I also have a very real issue with oftentimes philanthropies who have those restrictions on how much they have to spend on their endowments.

20:28And so you have some philanthropies that are saying, you know, the goal, you know, they've been around. We've been around for 70 and 100 years. And I was like, what if you had a philanthropy that said our job is to be gone in three? We're going to give all of a job. We're going to work ourselves out of a job, right? What about if that was your goal? Instead of saying, how can I spend as little for my endowment as possible? As I'm listening to you, Governor, I'm also thinking about the attitude of the Trump administration toward nonprofits. The attitude of the administration is that nonpartisan nonprofits are secretly all political.

20:58They're all favoring Democrats. They're all partisan. I think you're saying the opposite. They're not political enough. Yes, that's exactly right. I actually I actually think that. And first of all, for the irony is when I think when you look at the places that the president has attacked, they are showed that there's no sincerity in what he is saying, because a lot of the places that he actually has attacked have been the places that have really tried to play it straight down the lines. And that's actually what's kept their C3 status independent because they have not delved into the political or delved into the policy.

21:32And I'm not saying that going into policy means that you have to agree or disagree with something inherently that an independent political party says. But what I am saying is this. Are you interested in solving the problem or not? And if your answer is, well, I'm going to solve the problem, but I'm never going to deal with the policy issues, then I don't think that's real. I remember when I was at Robinhood that we started focusing our time on things like the child tax credit and making enhancements in the earned income tax credit. Because I said as an organization, we have spent all these years fighting poverty.

22:07But if we can make an adjustment on the child tax credit, you could do more in that one decision than the organization has done in 30 years. Money in every poor family's pocket. 100 % right and so and I remember when we started advocating for that and I was you know speaking with a you know we're speaking with now a former governor on this issue and using our voice to say that they should make this adjustment and uh and we got and I told him you should talk about in your state of the state and I got an advanced copy of the state of the state and there was nothing in there about child poverty or the child tax credit and I remember speaking with the head of public policy we brought on board uh a guy named Jason Cohn and he said to me one day he said listen and we worked for six months to get him to include a line in the speech.

22:48But what if you could write the whole speech? And that was the point. Policy matters in this. And the people who are writing the speeches and giving the speeches, they are the ones who are going to have an outsized impact on whether or not we can solve these problems.

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