Oklahoma’s governor on Trump, immigration and tribal lands

14:00A lot of Republicans, the president included, connect illegal immigration with other issues. The president has repeatedly stated the belief that people without status are voting and

14:11Steve Inskeep:voted against him by the millions. Has that ever happened in Oklahoma?

14:15Kevin Stitt:You know, in Oklahoma, I'm glad you're asking about this. I believe you should have to show an ID. I think that's normal. It's already law in Oklahoma. I can't walk up to the voting booth and look at the sheet of paper and go, yeah, that's me right there. That feels weird to me. I think it feels weird to most Americans. I have to show my ID and say, I'm Kevin Stitt. There I am on the list. And they hand me a paper ballot. I fill it out. It goes into a machine. We keep it. Oklahoma's election laws are fantastic. I wish every state had that. We have some states right now in America that are sending out ballots just to every single person.

14:50Kevin Stitt:They just mail them out. There's no real control. So I think that is a problem. How you prove, I think that ID is a very normal thing. So I think that's the big picture we're trying to get to. I get it.

15:03Steve Inskeep:But do you think that this happens? Because this seems to make it very difficult to imagine a solution if the president believes people here without status are voting. There's no way he would agree to let them stay here to work. But it doesn't seem to be happening. I should just note there's no evidence of more than a handful of cases over many years.

15:19Kevin Stitt:I don't think there's a broad issue with, I think there's problems state by state, but nationalizing our federal election system, I don't think is the solution either.

15:30Steve Inskeep:Which is the thing the president has talked about recently.

15:33Kevin Stitt:It needs to belong to the state level. We need to tighten it up. I think we should. It's already a law, by the way, that you have to be a U.S. citizen to vote. So we need to somehow make sure that's happening. What the solution is, I'll let Congress kind of debate that. But I will also say, you know, even my Democrat governor colleagues, they're not trying to get illegals here to turn them into voters. I don't believe that's what Democrat politicians are trying to do. And just like Republicans get a bad rap that people think that Republicans don't like immigrants. That's not true. There's some common ground that if we can sit down together, we can figure this out.

16:16Kevin Stitt:But politics drives you to your corners.

16:19Steve Inskeep:How do you find common ground with people who are conservative who worry about cultural change to the country, that that's their reason that they're worried about immigration?

16:26Kevin Stitt:I mean, this is a this is a melting pot. It's been a melting pot for a long, long time. I get those concerns when we see when we see when we see what's happening in some of those communities. That's why we need to have workforce permits. I think by the states, we have states rights for reasons. that's, you can choose to move to another state, I guess.

16:53Steve Inskeep:Ryan Walters, who for a very long time was the superintendent of public instruction, that was one of his education positions in Oklahoma, made a move on immigration before he left office. And we'll just acknowledge for people not from Oklahoma, long history with Ryan Walters, went back and forth, ultimately had to leave office. But I'm interested specifically in Walter's support for an effort to require students in Oklahoma schools to disclose their citizenship and for the parents' citizenship to be disclosed. You thought that was a bad idea. Why?

17:26Kevin Stitt:Yeah, you know, well, first off, I mean, with our law enforcement, like I said, we're number three in the country for getting illegal criminals out of our state, in the entire country. And we've done this all behind the scenes, working with ICE. Like in our jails, we actually turned them over to ICE to deport them, right? So I'll say that off the bat. But we're not going to pick on kids. I'm not going to make a first grader a criminal. And so when I saw that happening, I put a stop to that. And I said, listen, there's nobody that's going to go into use a kid as a pawn to try to get to a parent.

18:03Kevin Stitt:I just thought that was ridiculous. We're going to educate young people in Oklahoma. moment. Again, if we fix the immigration issue, this issue goes away. They're not a U.S. citizen, but they're here working, doing a job, whether they're working for Boeing or they're working for the local farm or they're working for, you know, wherever it is, whatever the employer needs, I just think we're overthinking that issue.

18:26Steve Inskeep:There's a larger question there that people debate. And there's one point of view that if somebody is here illegally or their parents are here illegally, the kids should not be in school because taxpayers are paying for the schools and It costs the state money, and you don't want to spend that money. There is, of course, this other point of view that a kid, if he's here at all or she's here at all, they should be in school because that's better for society. Where do you come down on that?

18:49Kevin Stitt:Probably the latter. But again, if they were here and had a job, what is wrong with that, right? Do I want to take care of and have people on Medicaid here that are illegally? 100 % not. But if you have a job and you're working and a company is vouching for you, that's the difference. Then, of course, we're going to educate the kids. They're paying taxes like everybody else. They're in the society. We need more workers here. We know that. We broadly know that. I mean, if you talk to the dairy industry, if you talk to, you know, the, you know, let's say big sheep farmers, they already have these certain visas.

19:27Kevin Stitt:And we have a lot of people, Peruvians that come in and they'll have a three-year contract for sheep herders. And so there are solutions, but the federal government is way too slow. And we would absolutely kill some of these industries if we don't have some kind of immigration thought process to how we have companies vouch for them.

19:51Steve Inskeep:I appreciate you saying Peruvians in Oklahoma, because I think maybe people who haven't been there don't appreciate that it's a rather diverse place. maybe more diverse than they would realize.

19:58Kevin Stitt:Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm an American Indian. We have 400 ,000 natives proud of our heritage in Oklahoma. But yeah, I mean, very diverse people in Oklahoma.

20:14Steve Inskeep:When people hear that Republican Kevin Stitt identifies as an American Indian, they're often surprised. In a moment, we'll continue our conversation by asking what he makes of that native heritage and why he has battled with Cherokee Nation leaders in Oklahoma.

20:34Steve Inskeep:I want people to know, if they don't, that you're an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation. What does that identity mean to you personally?

20:43Kevin Stitt:Yeah, very proud of my heritage, but I would differ in the fact that a lot of people think that, well, Indians are owed something or they need special treatment. If you read anything about me in Oklahoma, I'm in a little bit of a conflict with some of the tribes because I don't believe we should be divided based on race. I think we should be a meritocracy. It doesn't matter if you're black or white or Hispanic or Asian or American Indian. We're all Americans. Go chase the American dream. There's no such thing as equal outcomes, only opportunities. And I went to public schools. Then I went to Oklahoma State.

21:24Kevin Stitt:Then I started a business. I've lived the American dream. I started my company with$1 ,000 and a computer. My parents weren't wealthy. And I created a company in America. This only in our country. We live in the greatest country in the world. And I'm just afraid that we're teaching young people that, oh, because of my race, I deserve this, or I should get something special. And I think that's a loser strategy. We can't teach that to the young people. We want you to go dream, work hard, achieve things. If you invest capital, take risks, work hard, get an education, you should be rewarded for that.

22:00Steve Inskeep:A couple of follow-ups on that. I don't want to get into all the details because it's complicated, but we should explain for people that part of Oklahoma was historically Indian territory. There are tribal lands there. There have been lawsuits for many years before you were governor over who has authority where. There was even a Supreme Court ruling. And the question on the table for you is what authority, if any, does the state have to enforce state law on tribal lands? There's a court ruling that's found that you don't have that authority. You're even being sued by some of the Indian nations over this right now.

22:35Steve Inskeep:What is your fundamental concern in asserting state authority to enforce state law on tribal lands?

22:44Kevin Stitt:Sure, absolutely. Well, first off, the case was called the McGirt case, and he was a child rapist. And in a 5-4 decision, Gorsuch was the fifth vote.

22:54Steve Inskeep:Conservative justice, yeah.

22:55Kevin Stitt:Conservative justice that said that the reservation still exists in Oklahoma, even though we disbanded our reservations at statehood, 1907. We allowed it out all of our land, 160 acres at a time. It used to be a reservation, and it was all, and it still had been bought and sold. Tulsa, Oklahoma now is considered, according to them, half the Creek Reservation and half Cherokee. So what is the fundamental problem with that? Fundamental problem is an Indian, somebody that looks like me, they're saying that I don't have to pay taxes if I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. But a person of another race has to.

23:31Kevin Stitt:But yet our kids all drive on the same, we go to the same schools, we drive on the same roads. That's the problem. That's the rub. They're also saying that the district attorney can't prosecute me for a crime. And so the max penalty to me to do something would be three years in prison versus somebody of another race can get 20 years. We have cases right now. Two guys, same crime on the same day. One is in prison for 20 years. One is out because he's an Indian. That, to me, is not fair. And this is a huge problem that we need to talk about nationally. We can't have two different systems based on your race.

24:09Steve Inskeep:I think Justice Gorsuch or tribal leaders would probably say, well, it's not about race. It's about sovereignty. There's this historic nation that was never totally extinguished, and it's still there, and they have certain rights. What are they missing?

24:22Kevin Stitt:Well, number one, they're missing that you can't apply the reservation in the Navajo reservation. All that land was held in reserve by the tribes. Okay, so it's not fee simple land been bought and sold for hundreds of years. Can't apply that here because the state of Arizona doesn't build roads on the reservation. They don't build schools or hospitals. You can't be part of the Medicaid system if you live on the reservation. They have their own healthcare system. If you apply that same rule to Oklahoma, think about that for a second. Oklahoma builds roads and bridges and schools, and we have policed that part.

24:59Kevin Stitt:So how can we police and build roads there, but yet all the money from western Oklahoma is going to eastern Oklahoma? That'll literally tear our state apart. That's what I try to explain to people is that how long, we have an equalization formula and everything. You cannot have a system where this race doesn't contribute the same amount and has a different sets of rules.

25:20Steve Inskeep:How'd you find out you were Cherokee?

25:23Kevin Stitt:I mean, I've known my whole life.

25:24Steve Inskeep:Like your mom told you when you were a kid? Yep, yep.

25:26Kevin Stitt:Yep. My cousin's all rodeo and the Indian Rodeo Association. And so there's no blood quantum, right?

25:33Steve Inskeep:So my great - It's just that you're descended from people who were put on a list in the - That's right.

25:37Kevin Stitt:It was the Dawes roles. And so from my mom's side of the family, Robert Dawson was on the Dawes roles at statehood, and he had his blood quantum on there. And so I'm his descendant. And so I'm on there. So when my six kids marry your six kids, then now your kids will be Indian.

25:56Steve Inskeep:So there is no blood quantum.

25:58Kevin Stitt:All six of my children are, and now I have my first grandson. Congrats. My daughter, thank you. My daughter married a young man from North Carolina and they met at Baylor. And so now we have, so it will just keep going is the point. And so I think it's an important question. What is race anymore, right? We're all a little bit of something. And I just don't believe we should be divided based on that.

26:21Steve Inskeep:How would you want Americans to think about other Americans that have different identities, whether it's Cherokees in Oklahoma or Somalis in Minnesota or any number of other people that we could name across the country.

26:32Kevin Stitt:You know, it's so fun to get to know other cultures and other races and other people. Traveling is so good for us, right? Like Wes Moore, an African-American governor from another party, and we like each other and hang out and we have the same interests. And I've invited him to go duck hunting in Oklahoma. Did he come? He hasn't come yet, but we're going to. He's a big duck hunter. He wants me to come out to Maryland with him as well. They got ducks.

27:00Steve Inskeep:They got ducks. Yeah, go on.

27:01Kevin Stitt:And so anyway, when you break bread with others that are different than you, that grew up differently, I love that. I love meeting Kathy Hochul. And here's the New York governor that grows up totally different than a guy from rural Oklahoma, right? And so it's just so fun to meet them. We're all Americans. That's what makes our country so great is that we are diverse and we all come and bring different perspectives to this idea that we believe in free markets and entrepreneurship. The American culture is amazing.

27:34Steve Inskeep:One final thing. What conversations are Republicans like yourself having about the future of the party and what it should stand for after President Trump leaves the stage?

27:46Kevin Stitt:Well, I'm trying to just really bring the states forward a little bit right now as my job as the chair of the National Governor Association. But I think if we talk about getting government out of our lives, limiting government, lower taxes, unlocking the entrepreneur spirit, stop the pendulum swings. When I think about, you know, we had President Obama killed the Keystone Pipeline, and then Trump brings it back, won first Trump, and then Biden kills it again. Then Trump tries to bring it back. Well, finally, the developers are saying, forget this. I don't want to do it anymore. I've wasted all this money, and then you guys just keep changing the rules on me.

28:23Kevin Stitt:And just like today, the governor of Rhode Island, they have a win project that they did everything right. They've been working on it for eight years. They have all their permits. They're 90 % complete, and they just get the plug pulled on them.

28:37Steve Inskeep:That is un-American. By the administration. Yeah. You said that's un-American to do that.

28:40Kevin Stitt:That's un-American. We cannot be a pendulum swing where we are going back and forth and we're killing different projects based on our political views, right? I think America needs to get back to get government out of our lives, let businesses go innovate, meet the needs of Americans. At the same point, what they did to President Trump's businesses and attacking him in the court system in New York and raiding his home in Mar-a-Lago in Florida. That's wrong. At the same sense, when we get into power, we can't politicize the Department of Justice. That's just such a turnoff for Americans right now.

29:17Kevin Stitt:I just think that we have to get back to integrity. We've got to get back to a limited federal government and putting states back in charge.

29:26Steve Inskeep:I feel like you're telling me you want to go to the 2012 Republican Party or name a date, but sometime before 2016. Am I right? You know, I mean, listen, I believe that we should just get

29:38Kevin Stitt:back to putting those things forward that we've always done.

29:43Steve Inskeep:Governor Stitt, it's a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.

29:45Kevin Stitt:Thank you.

29:48Steve Inskeep:This has been a special edition of Up First from NPR News, one of our all-platform interviews, as we call them. It's a podcast. It's video. It's on the radio on Morning Edition. This episode of Up First was produced by Adam Bearn with engineering support from Margaret Luther, David Greenberg, and Tiffany Vera Castro. Our deputy executive producer is Kelly Dickens, and our executive producer is Jay Shaler. I'm Steve Inskeep. Thanks for joining us.