Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power

0:00I'm Aisha Roscoe, and you're listening to The Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. So if you've been following the news over the last year, you've likely heard about the rise of the Christian nationalism movement. Today on The Sunday Story, we take a closer look at one group of Christian nationalists and hear their vision for the country in their own words. I'm here with journalist Heath Druzen. He's the host and creator of the Extremely American podcast series from Boise State Public Radio and the NPR Network. The podcast series provides an inside look at how a national movement traces back to a church in Idaho.

0:48Keith, welcome to the podcast. Thanks. So I know that you've immersed yourself in reporting on Christian nationalism in America. Talk to me about what this very, very broad category means to you. Right. So Christian nationalism is a pretty broad movement. It can mean a lot of different things, but there are some unifying ideologies in the movement. One big example is something called dominionism. Now, that's sort of a jargony term, but really what it means is that Christianity should rule all aspects of life and that Christ's teachings should be the foundation for all of society. And, you know, I've been covering extremism since 2018, just looking at how extremism interacts with politics.

1:45And a lot of my early coverage was about militias. I covered the COVID lockdown pushback, which was really strong in Idaho, especially. and even elected officials pushing conspiracy theories. Eventually, my reporting turned to Christian nationalism when I started in 2018. I think people saw it as a really fringe movement. I certainly did too. And I definitely, even in making this podcast, there was a lot of skepticism as to whether Christian nationalists would ever really matter. But with the election of Donald Trump, I do think that a lot of that skepticism has melted away. The landscape is very different now.

2:27Trump himself has said Christians are, quote, under siege and that the left wants to tear down crosses and that we have to, quote, bring back Christianity in this country. And when Donald Trump says these things, Christian nationalists say that it's their ideology influencing the now president elect. You did a lot of reporting from this college town in Idaho. It's called Moscow. So tell me about your reporting there. Yeah, Moscow, Idaho seems like a really unlikely place to be a center of Christian nationalism in the country. It's a kind of sleepy college town of about 26 ,000 people in north central Idaho.

3:07Kind of an idyllic area, like rolling wheat fields, a lot of agriculture around the town. Real kind of cool, quaint downtown. Also a blue dot in a really red state. I live in Idaho. It's very conservative. I can tell you that firsthand. But Moscow is one of these kind of liberal strongholds, you know, as you'll find in a lot of college towns. So it's a little weird that it's become this kind of center for this unyielding, pretty far right Christian nationalist church called Christ Church. The pastor of Christ Church is Doug Wilson. He leads a congregation of eight to nine hundred people. He's a Navy veteran in his early 70s and a prolific author of Christian-themed books.

3:53He spent most of his adult life evangelizing and developing a conservative Christian education model. And he's kind of built this network from Moscow where he's had a lot of influence. He and his church members have been able to buy up some key real estate, also working on a housing development on the edge of town. So a lot of their influence is through money and real estate right now. And that's been alarming a lot of people in town because the stated goal of Christchurch, locally at least, is to make Moscow a Christian town. A Christian town. Yeah. So what does that mean exactly? Doug Wilson and his associates at Christchurch, they want a kind of local theocracy where the political power is held only by people who identify as Christian.

4:42Now, they haven't had much luck at the ballot box because it's a liberal town. But what's been fascinating and what kind of drew me to the story is that the fight over the town is, you know, it's really dramatic and interesting. But you could argue that he actually has more influence nationally. Because Doug Wilson, he's built up, well, what my co-reporter James Dawson on the podcast termed, a, quote, Christian industrial complex. He's got this church in Moscow, but he also has churches across the country and across the world. More importantly, he's built up a Christian educational empire where he's got nearly 500 schools across the country, coast to coast, in nearly every state in the country.

5:31And as he told me, he sees his educational enterprises as munitions factories. He likes to use war terminology. So, you know, he sees his students as basically foot soldiers in the culture wars that he wants to win. And the school system has been really effective, as has his media empire. He's got popular streaming shows. He's got a publishing house called Canon Press that churns out dozens of titles. He himself has written dozens of books, and they've been pretty influential in these circles. Secularism is resting on America like a dense fog. That's Doug Wilson speaking to me in Moscow, Idaho for the podcast in 2023.

6:11And we want students who are threats to that fog. We want students making movies. We want students appearing before the Supreme Court as attorneys. We want alums who are writing novels that are bestsellers that help shape the worldview of hundreds of thousands of kids who are reading those books and so on. So that's what we mean by shaping culture. So how did you get access to the church and the people behind it? And do they call themselves Christian nationalists? As far as the Christian nationalist label, they've become more and more comfortable with it. They really don't, for the most part, don't shy away from it anymore, even if they say it's coming from people that they disagree with originally.

7:00The way I got access was I just asked and I was up front with them. I said, you know, I'm sure you won't like everything in my podcast and you're going to hear from a lot of people who are really critical of you. But I do want to hear you out and I want to get your voice in there. So they did end up talking to me. But what I quickly realized is that I think a big reason they talked to me is simply because they're very proud of what they're doing. When I'm telling you what their plans are, what their ideology is and what they think, I'm not telling you what I think it is. They said it all into my microphone.

7:38And they were very direct. They want America to be a Christian nation, an explicitly Christian nation, just kind of saying it like it is in their mind. When we come back, we'll take a listen to some of season two of Heath Druzen's podcast, Extremely American. It starts off with a candid moment between Druzen and Gabriel Wrench. He's a prominent member of Doug Wilson's Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, the Moscow, Idaho-based religious organization. Then, Druzen and his co-reporter James Dawson check out a Christian nationalist conference called Fight, Laugh, Feast, headlined by Doug Wilson and other leading voices of the national movement.

8:25We'll be right back.

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9:54Hey, Gabe. How you doing? Welcome. This is Art. I'm talking to Gabriel Wrench, a media personality and activist in Idaho. Most people call him Gabe. Okay, great. Gabe has a lot of ideas about how America should change. You said it would probably take a long time, but that you would like to see only Christians be able to run for office. So if you're Jewish, if you're Muslim, if you're atheist, certainly. If I had you right, you said that, yes, you would support eventually them not being allowed to run for office. That's correct. I did say that. Because Gabe is a proud Christian nationalist. I think that the Christian faith is the ideal moral doctrine and principles for a thriving society.

10:42And the farther you get away from that, the more in chaos we descend. And so the only way to maintain that, or one of the ways to maintain that, is you have to have people who are running for office who believe that. Or you're going to get back into that chaotic decline. So I'll tell you straight up, as a Jewish American, I hear that, that I can't run for office, other non-Christians can't. And I have to admit, it's a little terrifying to me. Because to me, that means a fundamental freedom of mine in this theoretical world is gone. Well, I mean, you're saying that in a country where you experience all these immense freedoms that was built on the Christian faith.

11:28But where I can run for office right now? Yeah, because your worldview is not good for society.

11:43So Gabe wants biblical law to apply to everyone. That means a lot less democracy, especially for non-Christians like me. I should probably pause a moment here to acknowledge the bizarre journey I've been on for the past year. I've mentioned before that I'm Jewish, and it has been surreal to be immersed in this world of Christian nationalism. Don't get me wrong, people like Gabe have been unfailingly polite, which frankly makes it weirder. I'm being politely told I don't deserve key rights. But the reason I'm here, listening to Gabe explain why I should lose my rights, is not to feel uncomfortable.

12:23It's because plenty of people agree with him. Gabe is part of a younger vanguard of Christian nationalists trying to make their vision a reality. And they're spreading their word through popular streaming shows, including Gabe's creation, CrossPolitik. Merry Christmas. Welcome to CrossPolitik. You could not wait for the weekend to end and CrossPolitik to begin. CrossPolitik is a mashup of fundamentalist religion, politics, and drinking. So it's kind of faster paced show and, you know, a little rough around the edges. So I think that's attractive to a younger generation. Our music, you know, is a little more hard hitting.

13:05These aren't the megachurch pastors of yore with their faith healing and fire and brimstone. Those guys focused on arena-sized church crowds. Gabe and his allies use popular streaming shows and savvy social media. They have followers around the country. They write books extolling the patriarchy and want their followers to get political and get more Christ into government. They love to get into my tribe, your tribe, tribalism, and all sorts of nonsense. Gabe and his Christian nationalist peers are a whiskey-drinking cigar-smoking set that favor expensive boots and well-coiffed hair. What are we drinking?

13:45This is a Glenn Fittich, 14-year. This is from a listener. Kind of hipster theocrats with a distinctly bro motif. And business is good. These guys have popular books, a large podcast, and a YouTube channel with about 20 ,000 subscribers. All right, y 'all. Come on back. Come on in. Sit down. Squanch in. That's not a word. Squanch is a word from Texas. And each year, leading Christian nationalist thinkers, as well as rank-and-file believers, gather at a conference. As soon as I walked on campus, someone handed me a glass of whiskey. And I was like, all right, I'm at the Fight, Laugh, Feast conference now.

14:30It's official. It's official. This is Gabe's creation. Fight Laugh Feast is four days of fundamentalist Christians talking to Christians about being Christian. One of the gifts that God has given us is to be able to kind of be a place where we can bring like-minded Christians together. So Jimmy and I went. We flew across the country to where Gabe and his compatriots were brainstorming a Christian takeover of America. We're in the northern Kentucky countryside. The landscape is rolling and wooded with lots of farms. and, of course, distilleries. But we're not here just as an excuse to go bourbon tasting.

15:08We're here to attend Fight Laugh Feast. The theme is the politics of the six days of creation. This, of course, is the granddaddy of Bible verses, Genesis 1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. From there, each day God creates a new facet of the earth. And on the seventh day, he rests. And yeah, Christian nationalists definitely go with he. Creation in six days. A gigantic floating zoo with giraffes sticking their heads out the windows. Burning bushes, talking donkeys, dragons and unicorns, resurrection from the dead. Yeah, we believe all of it. We are not embarrassed by any of it.

16:01That's Toby Sumter, a pastor and a Christchurch affiliate, and one of Gabe's co-hosts on the show CrossPolitik. If you're wondering about the dragons, it's Revelations 12.3. And unicorns are actually mentioned throughout the Bible. Fight, Laugh, Feast is billed as a conference, but it feels more like a festival. Or this year, even a political convention. because everyone we talk to here thinks America should be a Christian nation. I want the authority of the Lord Jesus to be confessed by the House and the Senate, and I want the president to sign it. If you recognize that voice, it's Pastor Doug Wilson, who's a featured speaker here.

16:42Fundamentalist thinkers have come from around the country to be here, nearly 1 ,500 people according to co-founder Gabe Wrench. And that's despite a per-person ticket well north of$400. These Christian nationalists are here to put their heads together. They're planning how to take over America for Jesus. And they have ambitious goals. This is Pastor Toby Sumter again in a speech at the conference. Danger and mockery, and may you see your children's children standing in the gates of our cities, confounding our enemies until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and this land and all the earth is full of the knowledge of the Lord.

17:37We talked to a lot of people at the conference. They didn't pull any punches about who would be in charge in a Christian America. Christians, of course. When you talk to them, though, they're often polite, funny, and lighthearted about some heavy subjects. Gabe has a pithy term for this approach that he emphasizes in his speeches. We have to be joyful, jolly warriors. Joy is contagious. Being thankful is contagious. Jolly as they may be, warriors are at war. And in a war, there is always an enemy. What I started to realize was to them, that enemy was me. Here's Gabe. You know, the Bible says that if your enemy needs a drink, give him something to drink.

18:29Are we your enemy, though? Well, I'd say you're God's enemy. If you don't believe in Jesus, then you're at odds. You're at war with God. Statistically speaking, there's a good chance they think of you as the enemy, too. If you're Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Hindu, Mormon, Catholic, Buddhist, you'd be out. Christian nationalist strategy isn't just ideological, though. It's practical. Remember, America is rapidly becoming less Christian. Demographics are death for Christian nationalists right now. And finding support from people they want to disenfranchise seems unlikely. And so I think opposition to democracy comes when they realize, or when it becomes more clear that democracy may not return results that they've historically desired.

19:24That's Indiana University professor Andrew Whitehead. Andrew studies Christian nationalism and has written two books on the subject. But there's a workaround for not getting support in a democracy. If Christian nationalists get rid of entire voting blocs that might oppose their theocracy, Voting blacks like women, non-Christians, anyone in the LGBTQ plus community, that starts to solve the problem. Being in the minority isn't as much of an issue if the majority can't vote. Because ultimately, Christian nationalism is focused on gaining, maintaining access to self-interested power. And I think that that ultimately draws Christians away from the example and words of Jesus in trying to break down dividing walls of hostility and to actually loving our neighbor.

20:18And one thing we noticed at Fight, Laugh, Feast, Christian nationalists are trying to create a parallel society where as many goods and services as possible are provided by Christians. Leaders of Christian companies hawk their services on stage in between speakers. There's Christian crowdfunding and email, Christian Netflix, and a publisher putting out Christian children's books. With that, we created an entire universe where our characters are meeting the same ideologies that they're facing nowadays with peer pressure, fake news, cancel culture, gender identity. But we talk about it from a Christian point of view.

20:56This parallel structure, parallel society, is trying to pave the way for a Christian America. And these guys are patient. You're listening to The Sunday Story. After the break, Heath Druzen and I sit down to talk about the road ahead as we enter the next Trump term. We'll be right back. This message comes from Michelin. More than its higher company, Michelin is an innovation company. Now taking on space, developing an airless wheel for space exploration. Motion for life. More at Michelinman.com slash Y hyphen Michelin slash innovation. Support for NPR and the following message come from GoodRx.

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22:33involves risk, including possible loss of principle. We're back with Heath Druzen talking about his podcast, Extremely American, which takes this deep dive into Christian nationalism and talks to the practitioners of it who are very open about it. One thing that I was struck by in the excerpt that we just heard is that they want the nation to be run under this idea of Christianity or Christ, that's where I get a little confused because I'm a Christian and I grew up in a very conservative church. But I guess I want to get some clarity on what these specific Christian nationalists, when they're talking about a Christian government, like what does that actually look like to them?

23:26Yeah. In the view of the Christian nationalists I talk to, it's an extremely narrow view of what Christianity can be. It's a Protestant view of it. And even more than that, really, if you're outside of the sort of Calvinist Baptist umbrella, then they don't really consider you Christian. So if you're Catholic, if you're Mormon, you're still in the out group in their very narrow view of what a Christian America would look like. The other part of this that I think is, you know, very interesting is that there was like another very pro-U.S. and Protestant movement in the 1920s, and that was like the Ku Klux Klan, right?

24:09Where to be American was to be white and to be Protestant, right? Like that was a part of this, right? Like that was a part of what it meant. And obviously, Now, the Klan was a terrorist organization. But I just wonder, how does whiteness interact with this movement? Yeah, it's a pretty white movement. And Doug Wilson, who leads Christchurch, he co-wrote a pamphlet called Southern Slavery As It Was, which very much whitewashed the evils of slavery and painted the Confederacy as the victims. So there's some serious baggage there. And there's some real infighting and a bit of a civil war going on within the Christian nationalism movement.

24:55I've gone kind of down the rabbit hole and seen some people go to some dark places, mostly on the platform X, where there are elements of Christian nationalism who have really embraced anti-Semitism and racism. They've basically just like embraced alternative theories about the Holocaust and slavery. And then there's people kind of, it's a weird thing to say, but like the moderate Christian nationalists. They're a little more moderate. Right, right. And they're like pushing back like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We don't like being quote unquote woke, but you guys are going too far and you're putting a stain on the movement.

25:33There is a big battle going on inside the movement between the folks who see not being woke as actually being racist and the other people who are like, no, that's not what we're about. You guys need to get your head straight. That is an interesting dichotomy there. So this is a church in a town in Idaho. You know, they may have created this kind of Christian industrial complex, but like how far can their reach really be? How far can they reach? The limitation they have is that their ideas are broadly unpopular in America, but they're gaining influence and they're gaining influence at the top of power.

26:20To many, it seems as though the theocrats are now on the doorstep of power. You've got the architect of Project 2025, Russ Vogt, who's been tapped to lead the White House Budget Office again. So Vogt was actually caught on a secret recording saying he wants to, quote, rehabilitate Christian nationalism. And in the speech last year for a series called The Theology of American Statecraft, he said he wants to use biblical principles to instruct government. So he's been pretty explicit about his plans. Doug Wilson, who leads Christchurch, also spoke at that event. You've got Fox News personality Pete Hegseth, who's been nominated to be Secretary of Defense.

27:06Well, he's a member of a church connected to Doug Wilson's Christian nationalist group, and he sends his kids to one of Doug Wilson's schools. And he's talked about his writings, too. So I think we're seeing it right there in that what's sort of ingenious about the influence campaign that Doug Wilson sitting in Moscow, Idaho has orchestrated is it's this kind of intangible influence, right? What he's created is an entire ecosystem from school to church to entertainment. So if you get sucked in, all you're hearing is that ideology. And I think that's really powerful. So, I mean, the influence that Christian nationalism has is not theoretical.

27:54Trump and his advisors have not called for some of the most extreme things that the Christian nationalists that you talk to, that they're pushing for, for an actual theocracy and things of that nature. But in this next Trump administration, are there any things that you are going to be paying attention to or looking out for just along these lines? My home state of Idaho has been sort of a lab for extremism in the last few years. So I think it actually can be kind of instructive as to what might be coming nationally. There's some examples where the legislature has passed laws that have really become blueprints for the rest of the country.

28:35Idaho had an early anti-trans bill that was used as a blueprint for later anti-trans bills that passed in other states. They also recently passed a really restrictive library bill that basically leaves libraries open to lawsuits if they are found to have harmful materials available to minors. Now, the definition of harmful materials is very much in the eye of the beholder and some possibilities there when it comes to books, about people of color, about LGBTQ themes, things like that. And so I think what we're seeing in Idaho, it might be indicative of the kinds of pushes we're going to be seeing in this next administration.