Tucker Carlson on his MAGA split and Trump's 'nihilism' | NPR's Newsmakers

26:31He talks about it constantly. And he understood that this entire, the pivotal oil and gas region in the world could be shut down very quickly once this war began. He understood that. We talked about it at length, and he didn't want to do it. He also talked about, beginning in 2003, the foolishness of fighting a war across the world whose aims are unclear. In other words, the Iraq war, which he was offended by instantly to his great credit. he knew that that's the destruction of a president. I mean, he once said to me, when George W. Bush took office, he had all these plans, among them reforming Social Security, charitable choice.

27:10I mean, he sort of go back to his inaugural. A war, a land war with Iraq was not on the list. And yet, of course, it defined his presidency and will for all time and destroyed his presidency and him as a man. Trump meditated on that for 20 years. And so the idea that Trump didn't know the risks, and once again, I'm in an unusual position because I talked to Trump. But you've quoted him as waving off the wrist by saying, it'll all be fine, which could almost— You want to know what he said? Go on. I'll tell you exactly what he said, and I haven't said this, but I'm just going to tell you. Sure. And this is a fact.

27:45And I could look at my calendar, but it was in—I had flown back from Tel Aviv, from Ben-Gurion Airport, after seeing the ambassador, and two days later, I was in the Oval with Trump alone. and he was annoyed that I had given Huckabee a hard time in this whole conversation about Huckabee and I said here you're US and as the son of an ambassador I know what the job entails and your ambassador your representative to this nation just called for rearranging the Middle East and allowing Israel to take parts of Saudi Arabia Jordan and Syria like this is a diplomatic incident and so we had this whole conversation about this but then I said this war is not about Iran's nuclear program, which you told me in the world that you eliminated back in last summer in June.

28:29This war is being pushed by Israel with three aims. One, its own regional hegemony, take Iran off the map. They don't have freedom of movement as long as Iran is a regional power. Two, diminishing the power of the GCC, the six Gulf states, which are a rival to Israel and are becoming this kind of Switzerland or the Middle East, and that's bad for Israeli interests. And three, getting the US out of the Middle East because we constrain their ambitions, getting our bases out, destroying our bases. Israel wants our bases out of the Middle East. I said this to Trump to his face in the Oval Office days before the war began.

29:09And he looked at me and said, yes, you're right. But in the end, we all die anyway. So it doesn't matter. That's exactly what he said. In the end, we all die anyway. And I said to him, shocked, but what about our kids and our grandkids and like our country? And he goes, ah. What does that mean? I don't know. He didn't respond. That's a verbatim exchange. And I said, and it was God watches I said that. And I think it was, I thought it was true then. And I think it's been proven true now. The goal was to get the US out, to diminish the GCC, and obviously to take Iran off the map and sink it into permanent internal strife, into civil war, sectarian strife.

29:56And he said, it doesn't matter because in the end, we're all dead anyway. And I was shocked by that because it's nihilism. And that's the last thing any leader should display or any person should display. It does matter. Who lives or dies does matter. The future does matter. I believe it. I have four children. You believe him to have agreed with your idea that Israel was pushing against American interests specifically? Look, here's what I said, and this is the truth. We don't consider anything in foreign affairs ever from the perspective of other nations because we have been in this position for so long that it doesn't matter.

30:30We're exceptional and like people do what we say. But in order to understand why people do what they do, you do have to look at things from their perspective. So I was taking what I think is a charitable position toward Israel. Actually, Israel has nuclear weapons. Israel is a legitimate global power because of that. And so from Israel's perspective, Israel wants to control its region. Why wouldn't they? We've got the Monroe Doctrine because we want to control ours. We had the Cuban Missile Crisis for the same reason. Obviously, China is inflamed by American troops and Japan for the same reason.

31:02Same with Taiwan. China wants control of the South China Sea, wants control of the East. Why shouldn't it have that. Russia was provoked into war over Ukraine for the same reason. Russia wants to control Belarus for the same reason. Control is not the same as enslaved, but you want control over your region. You don't want your enemies at your doorstep. Every great power feels this way and always has and always will. This is what I said to Trump. And so from Israel's perspective, what are the barriers to regional control, full regional control, like elbow room? We want to, You know, I don't get hassled over southern Lebanon or Gaza.

31:36Who's hassling us? Well, the GCC is hassling us. Iran is hassling us. And the United States is hassling us. And I didn't present it as, you know, Israel wants to kill people. I was just like, Israel is a nuclear-armed power. So, of course, they want control over the Middle East. Why wouldn't they? And what's standing in the way? That's exactly what I said. And I think that's true. And I just want the record to reflect that I am giving Israel grace in this. Israel is the same motives that any power does, including us. Has your concern about the president reached the point where you would advocate for people in this year's elections, which are pretty important, to vote for Democrats who say they want to put a check on the president?

32:17I mean, you know, you would like—I don't want anyone to vote for this. You know, you have, like, Fox News politics and unhappy rich girl politics. Those are your options. You know, you've got one party that's like, oh, we need to ban Sharia law and kill more Muslims. And you've got another party that's just like the politics of Jackson Hole. You know what I mean? It's like unhappy, inherited money, rich girl, trans people, ICE is bad. It's like, how about we get an adult party here? When you have talked recently about finding some third way, is that a wish or a plan? Well, I don't think I could organize your daughter's birthday party.

32:58I mean, I'm just lacking the skills required to mount. She prefers a small one. I think you can. If it's the three of us at the Palm for dinner, I can do it. Got it, got it. But anything beyond that, out of my capacity, I don't have the skills for that. My skills are rhetorical, I think. My self-assessment is I think I can understand big picture trends and I think I can explain them in a way that's understandable. That's kind of it. So I wouldn't even attempt to organize anything ever. What I can do is what I do do, which is try to identify the problem, speak the truth out loud. That's the beginning of all change, positive change.

33:42And the core problem is that no matter who you vote for, you get John McCain. And most Americans don't want John McCain. Nothing gets John McCain personally, whom I knew very well and liked. But his views are totally out of the mainstream, completely out of the mainstream. So we just need a leadership that represents the majority of the population. It's kind of that simple in its priorities. You going to vote this fall? No. As I said, I almost never vote just because of the weirdness of my job, not because I'm against the democratic system. It's our only hope because after that comes violence, of course.

34:21Your neighbors here in Maine have an opportunity to decide control of the U.S. Senate. They've got a Senate race that means a lot. What would you tell them to do or think about or consider? Well, they have less of a choice than they did. They had a choice between Susan Collins and Graham Plattner. I'm not really on either side, actually. I know them both. And, you know, kind of like them both. I'll just say that. Though I think it's illegal to like Graham Plattner, but I do as a person. But Graham Plattner was slightly different from your conventional Democratic offering in that his foreign policy views, which he earned by serving multiple tours in Iraq and almost getting killed, he has a right to those views.

34:58His views were out of the Democratic mainstream, and he was destroyed by the Democratic Party in a fake sex scandal. So Graham Plattner should still be the Democratic nominee? Of course. Graham Plattner was, by the way, Graham Plattner was the choice of voters. Remember them? In Maine. He won. So yeah, he was the overwhelming choice. But of course, they don't get to vote for him in the fall because the democratic party, including the democratic party of Maine, which is run by people who weren't even from Maine, rich girls, not from Maine, literally rich girls, not from Maine. I hope everyone's offended by that because it's true.

35:33Yeah, they took him out. It took him out in a fake sex scandal. So my view, I'm not here to endorse Graham Plattner. I'm not endorsing Graham Plattner. I'm not voting in, you know, I'm not voting at all. However, I'm endorsing the idea that voters ought to have a real choice, not between, you know two species of the same flavor but between flavors that they choose themselves do you not care at all who controls the senate of the house of course i do i just think there's less of a difference than i thought there was and for me as someone who was involved in partisan arguing for 29 years i can promise you it's a bewildering realization one i did not want to have because what does it say about how i spent my life what does it say about how you spent your Well, a lot of it was wasted because I was having fake debates.

36:17And I'm not exactly sure why I didn't see that or allow myself to see it, maybe because I was at the center of it. And there's a famous quote, which I'm going to mangle, so I'm not going to attempt it. But basically the idea is if you're paid not to notice something, you don't. And I think that may have happened to me. And I'm ashamed to say that. I don't actually know why I couldn't see some of this, but I couldn't. and now I can, and I'm shocked by it. I'm absolutely shocked by it. Let me ask about another aspect of this presidency that you've commented on recently. There's a Vanity Fair article that quotes you describing a meeting with the president in which the Epstein files came up.

36:59Yeah. And you got from the president an explanation of why he was so reluctant to release them. I remember the conversation very, very well. So I knew, you know, a million people in that world because of my age and my job. And I knew a million people who'd eaten with Epstein. I knew people who knew Epstein very well. I knew people who worked for Epstein. Like, Epstein was not only, like, a world-famous criminal slash intel operative. He was also someone who circulated in the world that I lived in. I never met Epstein, thank God. But I knew a million people who knew him. So I knew a lot about the story and I thought it was really interesting and dark.

37:42So when it – when this all came to a head last summer, I think it was in July, and it became clear that Trump didn't want to release the files that the DOJ was holding, I said to Trump, dude, you know, what are you doing? I don't think that this implicates you. I have never thought, and I don't think to this day that there's some hidden sex crime that Trump committed. For all my criticisms of Trump, I don't think he molested girls on Epstein Island. I just don't think that. I mean, my view will change if evidence emerges, but I didn't think that. I don't think it. You don't think there's a deep secret in the Epstein files that we don't yet know?

38:18I do think. President Trump, I mean, specifically. No, go on. You tell me. Well, I think a lot of things. But anyway, at the time, I thought, but I don't think it's sex related. And I didn't think that then. So I said, why don't you just release all the files? You said you would. And I don't think it's going to hurt you. And he said, oh, this is all a plot to discredit me. It's like Russiagate, which was a plot to discredit him and totally absurd, actually. And I often said that on Fox and I mean it. And it turned out to be true. It was absurd. So he said, well, it's like that. And I said, no, it's not like that at all.

38:54Like, you just release it. Like, why do you care? And he was upset about it and like paranoid about it. And of course, you know, we saw what happened next, which is he wound up taking credit for Epstein's crimes. Why would you do that? Being blamed for Epstein's crimes. So he was withholding the evidence because he thought it would be used against him politically. He thought the whole, well, look, I don't know what he actually thought. I'll just tell you what he told me. He said, yes. Yes, he said to me, the whole conversation will be twisted by the media to implicate me in what Epstein did. I got nothing to do with this.

39:31I broke off with my friendship with him many years ago after he hit on girls at the spa at Mar-a-Lago, as we told me. The guy was a creep. I didn't like him. And I've got nothing to do with this. And the more we talk about Epstein, the more the media will use it to implicate me in Epstein because I knew him.

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40:36They believe conservation shouldn't be a choice between protecting nature and supporting people. It should advance both in harmony. With over 9 million acres protected across all 50 states, the Conservation Fund secures the irreplaceable lands people love. Learn more at conservationfund.org. I want to move on to another question, another aspect of the world, and in this case the president, at least at the beginning. You said, I never believed Trump was a Christian. He has in fact said, quote, I am a Christian. Why do you think he's not? I think he said I'm not a Christian. He also said I'm not going to heaven twice.

41:15I want to ask about that too. I don't know the answer. You know, I don't ever want to make judgments about other people's religious faith. I respect religious faith, all faiths. Through the course of my life, reflexively defended faithful Muslims, Orthodox Jews, faithful Hindus, and faithful Christians. I just like people of faith. I like people who bow down before a higher power because I think it's essential as a prophylactic against hubris, if nothing else. Sure. Humility is good. Go on. It's essential. Yeah. And in leadership, it's the indispensable. Humility and courage are the two things you need, much more than intelligence.

42:01But anyway, so I feel uncomfortable declaring Trump's, you know, a Christian or not. But I believe he has said I'm not a Christian. So you think he's not a Christian because? I shouldn't say that. I mean, as a pretty bad Christian myself, it's really not my job. In fact, I'm not allowed to run around judging other people's spiritual conditions. So to the extent, first of all, I'm sorry for saying that. And second, I said it on the basis of what I thought was a real quote on a video that I saw. I was not there. Okay. Christian said it. There may well be such a quote. We'll look it up. There's another aspect to this, though.

42:43Let's talk about something that he said. You correctly noted something the president said. In October 2025, the president told reporters, I don't think I'm getting into heaven. He said it three times, three different ways. As someone who knows him, who's had long conversations with him, why do you think he would not believe he's getting into heaven? Because I think he feels that way. I think he feels that way. He fears it. I will also say that Trump drops a lot of kind of self-aware comments parenthetically. You know, speaking to Trump is an amazing experience. And it's so amusing and interesting.

43:22And it's almost like being hit with a wave of warm water. You're kind of, you lose orientation for a second. It's just a lot, right? And part of it's by design to throw you off balance and to subdue you with words. um disconnect control the room if you're the one 100 that's and i know you've had the experience um so it's you know it's it's something that he does on purpose it's a tactic but it's also a tick it's something that just he just does because that's who he is and one of the things that he does he throws these lines out that kind of stick with you later did he say that i mean he once said to me in conversation he said i'm really insecure which i've always known of course sure i know him And then he said it again, because I'm really insecure.

44:07And you sort of, is he joking? Is he not? No, he's not joking. He tells the truth about how he feels in the middle of this kind of roiling bouillabaisse of words and ideas and grunts and inarticulately expressed concepts. He'll sort of throw out this thing that he's thinking about. And I felt that his public declaration on not getting into heaven was real. I don't know that. I've never asked him about it. Yeah. But I think that's right. I know that he's uncomfortable with the idea of death. Very. And that's been a good thing, by the way. Trump in his first term didn't get us into, you know, by the standards of American presidents, he was a restrained leader.

44:52Very restrained. Most restrained since Jimmy Carter. And I love that about him. I love that then and I'm grateful for it. You think then that his genuine state of mind is, I think I've done some terrible things in the world. why ever I did them, I did them, and I don't think I'm getting into heaven. Well, I mean, I've been around a lot of, as we all have at a certain age, been around people who are on their way out, who can see death approaching. And of course, these are the questions that they fixate on. It's not, how am I going to make more money? You know, the temporal concerns tend to kind of fade as you have a sight picture of eternity.

45:27Although he's been making a lot of money. Well, he certainly has. Okay, go on. Which is disgusting. No president should ever make a dollar as president. That should be completely, I don't know why that's not illegal. I hope it is. No member of Congress should be using his office to make money. But anyway, but I do think people as they age all of a sudden begin to think about the questions that American society discourages people from asking for most of our lives, which is like what happens after. That's natural. I think it's important. and I've known other people who feel despondent as they approach the end because they don't have confidence something better is coming for them it's totally under the most it's the most understandable thing but when he said to me it doesn't matter because in the end we're all dead um that suggested to me someone who's like made decisions about what happens next like I just don't care at this point.

46:27Like I'm just proceeding with the knowledge that blackness awaits. Boy, that is not a healthy worldview and it's an unacceptable worldview for a man with decision-making power. I have a question about your own faith. Yeah. You describe yourself as Episcopalian. You grew up that way. You grew up, you were raised Episcopalian. Has your faith - To the extent that means anything. Well, it means - It's a cultural designation. It's a cultural, okay, that's a fair point. And then - Yeah, but I'm a generational Episcopalian. There's religion, which is maybe different from someone's faith. Yeah, for sure.

47:00Has your faith evolved or changed in some way in recent years? Oh, so dramatically. Yeah, so dramatically. I mean, I wouldn't hold myself out as a role model for anybody in any category ever, and particularly not with my faith. I don't think I'm an especially good person. And in fact, if there's one thing, I had a long conversation with one of my many daughters this morning on this exact topic, that if there's one thing that an attempt to follow Jesus inspires in all people who sincerely do, it's like a deep knowledge of your own inadequacy and crappiness as a person. So, I mean, my personal view is that if you decide, like, I'm going to really try to be a good Christian and you start to believe that you really are a good Christian, you're doing it wrong.

47:48Like humility is the ticket price.

47:53Repentance is the first step. Is that the evolution for you is realizing that in a deeper way than maybe 10 or 30 years ago? Yeah, oh, 100%. Yeah, I mean, it's been a process. You know, I had to quit drinking. I'm no longer allowed to drink for 24 years. So, you know, when everyone else is drinking and you realize you can't drink because you're just like a slobbering, pathetic, incontinent alcoholic, Like that's a constant reminder that you're not like a perfect person, right? Okay. Which is nice, which is why AA is so great and so much better than any church I've ever been to because you can't even talk until you admit in public your first name, not your last name.

48:36Like they detach you from your family. So it's just you. Hi, I'm Tucker and I'm an alcoholic. Imagine saying something like that. It's so embarrassing. An alcoholic? Really? like a spreading urine stain on Skid Row. It's like embarrassing, but you have to say that or you can't talk. So there's something about that that is, and this is of course by design and people who wrote the 12 steps are Christians, but it very much identical to Christianity. Like you don't come before God in prayer before admitting, you know, forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. I'm no better than you.

49:10That's like a basic Christian precept. And I love that. I love that. It's the greatest. I don't know of another faith that demands that. There are people who imagine an impersonal God that created the world, but it's not talking to the individual. And there are people who feel they have a personal relationship with Jesus. Where are you on that? Serious question? If you're comfortable answering, if you're uncomfortable. Well, in the latter, of course. I mean, I have zero interest in a watchmaker God. Like, okay, how's that different from the Big Bang? The watchmaker who makes the thing. Yes, sorry, sorry, right.

49:48Exactly, yeah. Yeah, how is that different from the Big Bang? It's not in any way. No, no, no, you don't. And by the way, I feel like, this is self-flattery, but I feel like I'm kind of busy. I don't have time for any of this stuff unless it's real, unless God is alive and showing his power every day through other people and in nature. I mean, I don't have time for it. The conversation about artificial intelligence touches on God again and again. Yeah. You hear about people who think they're creating a new God, the sand God, silicon, interesting. You hear about people who think that by developing AI, they'll get closer to God.

50:30They'll get closer to the knowledge of how the universe works. What do you think about that line of reasoning? You get closer to God through humility. You can't approach God before you acknowledge you're not God, okay? So anything that causes people to embrace the lie that they are God-like, that they're not lumpy, furry, pathetic primates stumbling around in the dark, gets them farther from God. Okay, so let's just start there. Okay. And I think the three Abrahamic faiths acknowledge that. In fact, that's core. Certainly core to Judaism, whose core texts are also the core Christian texts, so I have read them a lot.

51:09And I think it's true in Islam too. You bow down before God five times a day. So I would just say, again, you're not getting close to God until you acknowledge you're not God. And my sense is that a lot of the developers of AI mistake themselves for God. And I have interviewed a lot of them. I know a lot of them. I've spent a few years on this topic, both professionally. I've done a bunch of interviews on it, but more than that, I've traveled to a number of different countries and talked to a bunch of different people off camera because I'm really interested in it. And of course, I don't understand it.

51:39But what I'm struck by is how little they understand about AI, the people who are developing it. And I mean the biggest companies. And I've talked to all of them except - Even some of the engineers don't get why things happen. So they don't understand two key things. I mean, I think they don't understand a lot, but the two key things they don't understand, and they'll tell you if you ask them. One is how the large language models work. They don't understand. So they're Large language models are based on one paper that theorized if you do this, something wild will happen. And the paper was right.

52:07Something wild did happen. But if you ask any AI engineer, well, how exactly does that work? They can't tell you because they don't know. Okay? And the second thing they don't know is the energy draw. They don't – nobody, as of yesterday at least, understands exactly and can predict with precision how much energy AI compute was. will consume. They can't scale it out. And so those are big unknowns, huge unknowns. Like on the basis of those two facts alone, we don't know these two things, we need to slow down. That's my view right there. You, for several years since leaving Fox News, have made your living on the internet.

52:50Yeah. And you're a thoughtful guy. But not in pornography, like totally legitimate. That's good to know. Good to know. Not the dark web, just the normal web. glad. Thank you. Thank you for confirming that. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. You've made your living on the internet, and I'm sure you're very thoughtful and you understand the incentives. The incentives to get more views, to get more clicks, to build up the numbers, and the incentives seem to cause people to tend toward more extreme or divisive or wild statements. how do you guard against that danger yourself as you talk in front of people all the time and uh do you think you've ever been affected by it well i've been in in in audience incentivized media like you like my whole life so cable news measures its audience response way more precisely yeah and much more hangs on it you know because so i've i've definitely lived it's not just the internet that's like this.

53:49It's the New York Times, it's the Washington Post, it's NPR, it's me. Circulation. It's me. 100%. Absolutely. But there's something special about the internet, that instant feedback, success or failure. I mean, I'll give you an honest answer, which you won't believe, but you can talk. I've got a couple, three people who work here and you can ask them off camera. I'm not claiming to believe or disbelieve anything. I don't pay attention. You don't pay attention. I was the only anchor at Fox who was not on the ratings list. I never learned how to read ratings in television. The ratings list was like an email distribution.

54:15Internal email, Well, like every day, I wasn't on Fox email. So that was one, I don't do email. Honestly, when you were on Fox, you didn't need to keep track of your ratings. Everybody knew that you were very high. But my ratings went up because I didn't pay any attention to them. And when I started at Fox, which was the week Trump got elected in 2016, I thought to myself, what do I want to do with this? I've been in television for 20 years and I had a lot of shows. And I thought, now I'm in prime time at Fox, like people watch, what do I want to achieve? And the number one thing I wanted to achieve was get the neocons out of the Republican Party because they did the Iraq War.

54:49And I was really mad. I remain mad about the Iraq War. And so I systematically brought on Fox News contributors like Max Boot or John Bolton, and I grilled them on my show. And the audience hated it. They hated it. Because a key plank of the Republican platform since George W. Bush was, we're neocons. Like, we're the world's policemen. and we're doing this because we're bringing freedom and they hate us for our freedoms and all that nonsense. And so I went against our audience and my producer's like, what are you doing? And I thought it was right. And by the way, I also thought it would work over time.

55:29I always felt that people agreed with me secretly. Maybe I'm more arrogant than I think I am. Anyway, I did that and it didn't help our ratings, but ultimately I think it did. But day-to-day ratings are a trap. You wind up like Sean Hannity, like doing the same show every night because it worked three years ago. Like, don't do that. Be more like, honestly, like Rachel Maddow, who I don't agree with on a lot of stuff, but Rachel Maddow would just do whatever she wanted to do. If Rachel Maddow thought it was important, and I used to work with her, so I know her, she'd be like, well, I don't care.

56:01I think it's important. And she got to be number one in her area, liberal television, doing that. And I just think it works. So I don't pay attention to the numbers. I don't even know what the numbers are actually here. The only numbers I ever see are the YouTube ones. I don't know what our podcast numbers are. I do know because we had a company meeting yesterday that a lot of the viewers who came with us when I was fired from Fox have gone. That was the analysis of people who work here. That's okay. What's the reason, if you know? Well, Trump. You know, they love Trump. And Trump called me low IQ and made fun of the fact I didn't graduate from college.

56:41And he's an idiot. He didn't graduate from, he didn't go to Wharton. Okay. Busted. And so they, you know, that's okay. That's all right. I mean, I'm not, we're doing fine. And actually, I think our numbers are strong. But I would say the same thing no matter what. the real threat is not audience capture, at least for me. And again, you don't have to believe me, but it is true. The real threat is that you become a monomaniac, that you get so mad about a topic that you can't stop talking about it. And that's the threat to me, like where you just become totally fixated on this thing. Okay. And there are a lot of things going on.

57:23Do you have moments where you think I'm heading in that direction. So 100%. And so the key is don't pay attention to the attacks. The way that people get captured by their enemies is by fixating on their enemies. I had an experience once in a, I almost got in a very bad car accident during the Iraq war with a guy who was driving. I was in the back seat, man, we almost hit this building. And someone fired on the car and we went into this dead spin. Someone fired on the car? Yeah, we were driving through Nazarene, Iraq. here's the point. And he lost control of the vehicle and we didn't hit the building.

57:58And I was like, that's the craziest thing I've ever, how did you not hit that building? And he goes, don't look at it. He was actually turned out, he was, it's a guy called Bill Frost, wonderful guy, former force recon Marine. And he taught defensive driving. And he said, the first rule of defensive driving is if you don't want to hit something, don't look at it. And I thought that's the, that's like the deepest life rule ever. If you don't want to hit something, don't look at it. If you don't want to become your enemies, don't fixate on your enemies. And that's so true in our business. Like if you spend your entire life reading people's attacks on you and the internet, and you're like, they're haters, they're horrible.

58:34You become a hater and you become horrible by letting them in. And so again, you can ask anybody. It's one of the reasons that I try to stay away from that crap. I don't read replies. I'm not on the internet all day. I never read anything about myself. Why would you do that? Do you not know who you are? You want strangers to tell you who you are? I ask my wife and kids or my business partners, my college roommate or my staff. I mean, they know who I am and I know who I am. Tucker Carlson, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for taking your time. Thank you, Steve. Thank you.

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