Does Max Verstappen's new contract shut doors at Red Bull Racing?

0:28。 This is a global production. Red Bull now can really start planning for the future and planning that future around Max. Are there exit clauses all over this contract? That's the million dollar question. And if Max doesn't want to be in Formula One anymore, he'll f*** off and do something else. You've opened an old wound. Silly season is officially cancelled. You can't mess it up. You have to take the chance. You can pull the drivers from each other. Who would Mercedes pull in? Who would Ferrari pull in? Is the door shut? So I don't like that. I don't like that.

1:16It's Will. It's Naomi. It's David. Welcome to Up To Speed. I had great fun a couple of days ago talking about everything that went down in Zandvoort, But there's a lot more to kind of delve into. In particular, I think, guys, what's going on at Red Bull Racing with the drivers there, with how that all mixed up with having two teams. But in particular, I think with Max having re-signed, there's so much to look at in terms of, you know, how this team now moves forward and Max's place within that team. What I really noticed over the weekend in Zanvoort, and Naomi, you were there as well, it just felt like it diffused a lot of perceived tension between the media and Red Bull.

1:59And, you know, the tabloid media were enjoying the fact that there was uncertainty and they were doing their job, which is to try and get their finger in a little crack and, you know, see if they can find a weakness. But I think the fact that Max has committed is not just about Max Verstappen and Red Bull. I think it says a lot about where Formula One is going off the back of, you know, some negative reaction to the new regulations early doors. I think that Zambort was less of a bad example, if you like, in terms of harvesting and deployment. But Monza might be slightly sobering when they cut back to 500 horsepower very early on the streets.

2:40So I think it says a lot about Stefano, Formula One, you know, the FIA, the future. Would you agree? Yeah, I would totally agree. I think first and foremost, as you say, I think the biggest concern, more so than where he could potentially go other than Red Bull, was whether he would stay at all. You know, his previous contract was due to come to an end in 2028. And given some of his activities outside of Formula One of late, we were starting to get the feeling that it was becoming quite realistic that that could be an option for him to just leave F1 as a whole. So great news for the sport because Max is such a great and important character within the sport.

3:21but also I think that it will it sends a really good message for Red Bull especially for its partners and the future for the team that he sees that they can take themselves back to being you know right at the sharp end of the field because we know that Max is not there to fill numbers and he wants to be in a competitive car so Toto Wolf put it put it quite well to us he said silly season is officially cancelled that's a great way of looking at it but it's it's it's also kind of um it reflects to me the fact that that red bull now can really start planning for the future and planning that future around max because they have that certainty and we've always talked about how great drivers can be that kind of magnetic influence in terms of drawing people to a team um and i think that much is is true for max but i also think it can be a unifying factor now for a team which was hemorrhaging people you know they were losing people hand over fist And perhaps anybody who, similar to Max, might have been thinking about looking at the exit door.

4:23Now that they know Max is there, does that keep them there? And people who might have been thinking, do I want to move to Red Bull? Well, not if there's no Max. Now that he is there, you know, it becomes a possibility for them to go there. So in terms of Red Bull and their future and where they go and talent acquisition and talent retention, I think it's a hugely important move for them to get him signed up, not just for like a year or two years. But to your point, Naomi, you know, extending that 28 to 30, that gives them a good four year period now of stability. Do we think that he'll stay that time?

5:00Obviously, as we've mentioned, performance is clearly going to be key for Max. But sometimes when we hear these things like long term contract or multi-year deal, you know, I mentioned in another podcast recently, like, are these contracts even worth the paper they're written on? Are there exit clauses all over this contract? That's the million dollar question, right? Here's the thing, isn't it? Like, as you said, he had a contract to 28, but we were all wondering if he was going to leave the sport at the end of 26. So, no, they're not worth the paper that they're written on. because as DC has said week in week out you can't force a driver to race where he doesn't want to race and if Max doesn't want to be in Formula 1 anymore he'll fuck off and do something else so like you know it's alright Gunther you've been in America too long you know that's still a swear word over in Europe I know in America it's a term of endearment but yeah look yeah he can of course all of the top guys will have performance clauses if the team aren't hitting certain targets.

6:01If you remember, the most bizarre of those was Sebastian Vettel, where if he wasn't in the top three in the driver's championship, he could leave Red Bull, which is what he did for Ferrari. Now, why you would ever put that in the hands of the driver? Because if he doesn't want to be with you, then he can just have a couple of bad races, slip to fourth, and then trigger the clause to leave. So, there's also actually... Wasn't it a surprise? Was it a surprise that year with Seb that his form tailed off? It did. I think it was Suzuka towards the end of the year at that time where he triggered it and signed to Ferrari.

6:38But there's also drivers, and I've certainly experienced this myself, you have a contract with a team, but you can sign a pre-contract with another team that triggers if you basically leave the team you're with. So the first right of refusal. So, for instance, Lewis Hamilton, when he was at Mercedes, could have had a contract with Ferrari that said that if I leave Mercedes, I give you the first opportunity to sign me. And what they do is pay for that right. So it's another way for the driver and the managers to earn extra money because, you know, you might not have them right now, but it gives you first right of refusal down the line.

7:14Yeah, Robert Kubica famously had that pre-contract with Ferrari, didn't he, until he got into that rally accident and how different Formula One history might have been because of that. Yeah, brilliant driver. Oh, brilliant. Phenomenal. Could have been, you know, you look at how Lewis and Fernando talked about him, you know, potential F1 world champion there. How much pressure do you guys think Red Bull will be under to deliver a car for Max? Because, you know, everyone is talking about this brain drain that they've had at the team, starting with Adrian Newey, this Paul Monaghan, Rob Marshall. And soon as well, his his his racing engineer is going to leave as well.

7:50Gimpero Lambiasi is heading to McLaren in 2028. So, you know, are they under pressure? Does the fact that Max has re-signed start to maybe attract again talent across the paddock? Because maybe it had become sort of the notion around the paddock that if Max wasn't going to stay, was that still an attractive place to go? What do you guys think? I think that, you know, I was talking to someone at Rebill a few weeks ago about this. And the reality is they came up with a number that the amount of people that had left versus the amount of people who joined from Ferrari, Mercedes, you know, the rivals.

8:27was in favour of people coming in. And if you look at powertrains, they basically set from scratch, built a factory and hired a few hundred people. Now, those few hundred people weren't coming from motorbikes and all the rest of it. They were coming from other Formula One teams. So it kind of, I think it's one of those things where the narrative suited the poker finger, the wheels have come off the wagon type scenario, but it's constantly happening. All of the teams are hiring and firing and people on gardening leave. And so I don't see anything unique in that at all because, you know, I guess you and Adrian and people like that are headline names and they have clearly captained the ships very well.

9:11But I think the sport now has become so complex. Not one person can make it the deciding factor. I think there's another point here as well, which is that we look at the headline names, right? And the big names, they don't become big names without having to work their way up through the ranks and through the levels. They all start at the bottom and they make their way to the top. How do they make their way to the top unless they're given the opportunity to get a promotion and to prove themselves? the people that we see at the track the headline people that we see at the track are a small percentage of the thousands of people who work back at the factories there will be um you know a line of people waiting just waiting for the moment when an adrian newey left for them to be able to step up and make their mark you know and it's it's interesting because when you talk to people at the teams about oh you know the garage looks a bit looks a bit different you know lots of people have changed the answer you'll often get is no like don't these guys for years they just they just weren't race crew before they've been at the factory forever you know like we know them all it's not like they've just turned up like we've worked with these guys for years and and i think that's what what you don't see is that that kind of that that procedure and that process of bringing people through back at home so you know max clearly knows what's going on at the factory clearly has faith that the people they're bringing through that the people he sees, that he sees their genius, that he sees their potential as the team does, and that this will be a new generation for Red Bull, not just with the people they've brought in, but the people they'll promote from within who will be the superstars of the future.

10:50So it could be a very exciting time for Red Bull. It's kind of like a new look Red Bull where they create the headline names that we'll be talking about for the next 10, 15, 20 years. I guess there was also this huge question mark around what Red Bull powertrains was going to be able to deliver. And I think Max was wise to wait as long as he did to sort of extend that relationship, given all of us had no idea what this year would look like. There were some rumors about Mercedes engine being really quick and all that stuff behind the scenes. But now we know where people sort of lie and the Red Bull powertrain is deemed the quickest power unit or at least the quickest combustion engine.

11:26And so I think he believes that there's enough there for him to sign on board for long term. But, you know, Red Bull's not as simple as just the one team when we look at its future, when we look at its driver's, you know, sort of situation. There's two and that showed itself over the course of the Zanvoort weekend because Izek Hedja was injured, couldn't take part in the race. And so they played their musical chairs as they can do with two teams in Formula One. how impressed were you guys with Lawson stepping over to and again we touched on this briefly on Monday's episode but not as in depth as I think we can go with Lawson stepping up to the big team and then with Yuki stepping in you know first time in the car this year over at Racing Bulls and heading out and racing how do you think they did?

12:20I was really really impressed actually it always pains me if you have to criticise an underwhelming performance because I, you know, of course, know how difficult it is to get everything right in Formula One. But I thought Liam Lawson did a fantastic job to be so close to Max in qualifying. I think Yuki was impressive given that he hadn't driven this speck of car at all, other than in the virtual world. And then, you know, the regular, Len Blad, he's almost like a veteran now, isn't he, of half a season, continues to do a great job. So I think there's strength and depth across the Red Bull team that they can pull the drivers from each other.

12:59You know, you think, who would Mercedes pull in? Who would Ferrari pull in? I think that probably, yeah, I said the same thing over the weekend, that it seems to be a little bit of an advantage to be able to put someone in who's already currently driving these cars. And I guess Ferrari is the only other team that would probably call on Oliver Behrman, whereas Mercedes have Fred Vestey, who travels with them to most of the races, so it would most likely be him. So I do think it works out to an advantage for Liam, But I think that doesn't take away from the fact that that was probably a daunting environment for him to step back into, although it does look very different than what it was, what he left behind.

13:34But to get the call so last minute and then have to completely flip. I mean, even just small things that people don't think about. And I know this is less about the performance, but I was walking in the paddock and you've got all these massive signposts and they were able to change everything so that the right drivers were in the right kits in the right place. And you just think of all the knock-on effect that that has on the operations. But fantastic job from Liam. I know Max came out and said that these cars are obviously slightly less challenging maybe for the drivers because they're not constantly on the limit.

14:07I don't know if that was to say that that's why Liam's as close as he is to him or less so a criticism of Liam more so maybe of where Formula One is at right now. But even Yuki, I mean, Yuki had obviously been doing some TPC testing. TPC cars, which are previous models of F1 cars, they need to be at least two years old. He'd done five race distances from what I read in a TPC car, but a TPC car is not the current regulation of cars. And so to jump into something so, so different and go as quick as he did, I think both of them did a fantastic job. Well, especially with everybody talking about how tricky Zanvort was from a power delivery perspective.

14:47For Yuki to step in, having only driven the TPC, which is a two-year-old car and doesn't have you know the current power unit and to have to get on top of what we know you know every driver struggled with in their first few races this season for yuki to to drive as well as he did and yeah he's done sim time and all of that but i thought that was i thought that was exemplary um from yuki i really thought it was exceptional um and the same for liam stepping into a car that he didn't know um and not really putting a foot wrong again i thought I thought both drove exceptionally under huge pressure because there would have been massive pressure.

15:23But for them both to jump in and just get their heads down and do the job, you're dealing with different engineers, you're dealing with steering wheels that you're not used to, you're dealing with power delivery you're not used to. Everything is foreign. And the pressure is real because Yuki still dreams that he's going to have a return to Formula One. So you can't mess it up. You have to take the chance. And for Liam, it was a chance to put the ghosts of the past behind him and prove to Red Bull, you know, you should have trusted me and I was worth the ride. And so there was that huge sort of validate, a moment of validation for him and vindication for him in that.

16:01So the pressure was like there was an emotional pressure for them and potential career defining pressure for both of them. So I was I was deeply impressed with with how they how they fared over the weekend. Not easy, not easy at all. I guess what it does do is throw open the question that has been raised a few times by Zac Brown, actually, about having sister teams. He's been quite clear that he doesn't think that's right and there shouldn't be any collaboration. You know, it's one of those ones where I guess if they had a sister team, they would see it differently. But from what I know from my time there, there's no sort of strategic collaboration.

16:41it would seem obvious that they're not going to get in the way of the the the main team if they're challenging for a victory or something but you know that's what the back markers are also doing yeah i don't like that i don't like when when teams collaborate on track in terms of manipulating positions i don't like that because there's few enough seats and there's few enough cars in formula one that to have two cars that are effectively going to move out of the way of somebody um don't like that. I don't like that at all. I think the biggest concern from a sister team perspective always came from the fact that teams have to be constructors in and of their own right by the regulations.

17:23And this goes all the way back to the 1990s when we had Benetton, which is now Alpine, and was owned by Flavio Briatore, who, you know, the more things change, the more they stay the same um and there was um a french team called called ligier um and ligier were going through financial problems and so um benetton took apart ownership of ligier and then in 1995 benetton and ligier turned up at the start of the season and basically had exactly the same car um and they argued it's not the same car because ligier's got a honda engine in the back of it or a mugan engine in the back of it and the and the benetton's got the renault engine so the rear has to be a little bit different but when you looked at them side by side they were identical like identical and and dc like you know because you were there same with red bull in 2007 you know the rb3 and the toro rosso what was it str2 identical um but they got away with it then because they said yeah that was right but red bull said they and this was smart they got away with it because they said that what was it red bull technologies had designed the car and so So you couldn't say that Toro Rosso was running something designed by Red Bull because Red Bull hadn't designed it.

18:35Red Bull wasn't running something designed by Toro Rosso because Toro Rosso hadn't designed it. It was run by Red Bull Technologies. But I think Williams had a court case and they found a part and its name was exactly the same on both cars because they found the schematics or whatever for it. But again, different engines. So you could argue that the rears were slightly different. but that's where it gets tricky and we haven't had that for a long time. Yeah, you've opened an old wound because when Mark Webber and I were we were with the Renault engine which had less power than the Ferrari engine so quite often Toro Rosso were faster than the main team and of course Vettel won in Monza Mr Manischitz was there and we're there Mark and I as Grand Prix winners and you know with the main team and we're having to say to the junior team well done Gerhard Berger loved that because he was with them and yeah it was an Adrian Newey designed car with a more powerful engine oh it was horrible well on that note on that note I feel like I see so many people out there saying they're desperate to see Max in the RB because that car at the moment seems like I don't know maybe let's call it more benign right it's a little bit more benign whereas the Red Bull is a bit more on a knife's edge which means when they get it right yes they unlock more potential but sometimes that's a more temperamental car to be in.

19:56So maybe people were suggesting that it was easier for Yuki to jump into the RB than for Liam to jump into the Red Bull. And that actually maybe Liam would have had a better weekend if he was in his own car. It kind of looked like that at the beginning of the weekend. But by the time we got to qualifying, there was half a second between the Red Bulls and the RBs. So that isn't the case. But should RB be sharing some notes with Red Bull instead of the other way around? Maybe if there is any note sharing going on? Well, I mean, it's since 20, 10, it's been much more sort of strictly defined what you can and can't do and what you can and can't share.

20:31And we do have scenarios where teams have shared knowledge and data and parts. So you look at Haas. Haas's entire business model was based on buying everything that they could from Ferrari and essentially being this kind of customer team, but not a customer team in the old traditional ways of thinking about a customer team where a team would simply go and buy last year's car as Superguri did with Honda. They would buy Honda's last year car and update it and turn it into their own. It's not quite like that. But, you know, Ferrari and Haas, I think that's a very, very close relationship and as close to kind of that customer relationship as we've had more recently.

21:12But the rules are very, very strict. Very strict. Yeah, exactly. Some of the Haas designers actually are based at Ferrari. And I think they use the wind tunnel and the Sennheiser as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is odd because now they have the relationship with Toyota as well. So it's like just bring it all in from everywhere. But, yeah, like I think where it becomes interesting for me between those two teams is the driver market and bringing everybody in through there because you do have all of those capabilities and you're almost using that sister team as a proving ground.

21:50um but yeah what i said earlier like i don't mind ownership being the same but when it means that look let's say you've got max verstappen needed to make up two positions to win the world championship and those two cars ahead of him are uh are racing bulls and they just walk out of his way to give him the positions not that that's happened but like you know were that to happen that would leave a bitter taste and i think that's that's one of the things that probably rival team bosses don't love too much. Yeah, but listen, let's just remind ourselves, 1997, in Jerez, Michael Schumacher and Jacques Villeneuve were battling for the World Championship.

22:25And unbeknown to me and unbeknown to Mika, Ron Dennis spoke to his old friend and rival, Frank Williams, and said, we won't get in the way of your battle to beat Ferrari. And if we don't, then you will look favourably upon McLaren's results. So it ended up, for our audience that haven't seen that race, basically Michael Schumacher and Jacques Villeneuve touched and Michael went off into the gravel. Thereafter, Jacques slowed down. Touched, touched. Yeah, crashed together then. Michael tried to put him in the next town. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But anyway, within the closing stages of the race, Jacques slowed down to let me pass because we were buddies.

23:09and then I was told to move over for Mika because Mika hadn't won a Grand Prix. So there was a whole kerfuffle. So Mika won, I finished second, Jacques finished third and Jacques won the World Championship. So, you know, that's not very nice for the racing fans, but I've lived through that then as well. Should we talk about what this means, as you were saying, Will, with regards to the junior programme at Red Bull? Gwen Legrou, obviously a big name leaving Mercedes who ran their junior program has now been announced to join Red Bull. Big, big, big announcement. Well, probably not quite as big as the Max one, but still a very valuable person who's done a very good job with bringing Antonelli through, bringing Russell through, and the list goes on.

23:55But what does it mean? Because obviously, as we say, we've got Isaac Hadger in there who I personally think is doing a fantastic job. Liam's just proven what he can do in that Red Bull seat should he get called up again. and Arvid Lindblad, I think, is having a fantastic rookie season. So is the door shut at the moment in the world of Red Bull Junior Programme for potential F1 seats? I think it has to be because I don't know how you replace any one of the four incumbents. I think they're all fantastic. I mean, obviously, Max. But you look at Hadja, why would you replace him? And same with Lindblad and same with Lawson.

24:31They're all exceptional. And, you know, Helmut Marko was cutthroat and one of them would go. and you'd think it's incredibly harsh but he would you know get starry eyes for the next kid in formula two and and one of the guys doing a perfectly good job would be would be ousted because he wouldn't be flavor of the month anymore that's just how helmet did things um you know you're not living up to the impossible barometer that we've set you so you're done um there are more red bull drivers who sit on the helmet marco scrap heap than than whoever you know made it um but gwen legrue is not helmet marco and i think it's a real sign of intent from red bull that they've gone after gwen because he's brought some phenomenal drivers into the sport um over his time with mercedes and you know not just george and not just um um not just george not just kimmy but you know ocon was a was a mercedes driver and was a gwen legrue um kind of signing.

25:27And you look at his signings to F1 Academy. All of the signings that he's made to F1 Academy have been very, very strong. They've never gone massive on their reserve drivers and their young drivers at Mercedes. But those that they have picked and chosen have been very, very good, very well thought through. So Gwen to Red Bull to be kind of their new Helmut Marco, Helmut Marco, of course, being the former director of Red Bull Racing, who headed up their young driver program. Same position, very different person. And I really like that for them. Well, DC, I'd love to get your take on this, obviously, because having been a part of the Red Bull family and, you know, having been in and amongst the people we're talking about, what is your feeling?

26:12Because at least I remember when I was karting that if you ever saw a driver who had a Red Bull lid on, you knew that they were great and you knew that they had a big future ahead of them. And I think Helmut Marker did a fantastic job of leading up, you know, the junior program and making sure that those drivers actually had incredible opportunities. But my feeling right now is as though Red Bull have signed up a lot of drivers where there maybe isn't as much opportunity available. And then maybe, as Will is saying, Mercedes and others have been a little bit more selective and, you know, therefore don't have as many drivers in the pipeline to have sort of empty promises to you.

26:53Yeah, I think that Helmet was part of the programme when I joined, although I didn't have a... I was not a young driver, of course, when I joined Red Bull, so I didn't really have the same relationship that the young drivers do. The young drivers have to send them a report on a Monday explaining how they felt they performed, what the team did, he will speak to the teams of the young drivers' formulas that they're in. So I guess I managed to escape that, having a being an established driver. But I think what it does do is create a discipline that absolutely is needed. You know, just having raw talent nowadays isn't sufficient.

27:31I've seen the criticism of drivers getting dropped. And then if, I would say this, not to defend a helmet, but very few who've been dropped have then been picked up by another top team and gone on to have success. You know, I'm trying to think who that person is. Pierre Gasly maybe has certainly shown himself to be a worthy driver in Formula One. There's no question. But a lot of the others. Alex, yeah, absolutely. He went out of Formula One and then came back in. He went off to DTM and then came back in. And then obviously had that stellar run at the beginning of his Williams career. And, you know, it ebbs and flows with Carlos because, you know, they're both quality drivers.

28:14but there's a lot more that have gone off into the sports cars on Formula E or whatever it happens to be. But I think the whole programme exists not to find great drivers, it exists to find the exceptionals. You know, clearly Mercedes rang that bell with Kimi, much to the annoyance, I'm sure, of George Russell, which is going to continue to be a pain in his backside. But Max came along like that. You could say McLaren did that with Lewis. He was signed at 12 and he proved his worth. Fernando was signed by Flavio and Flavio put him in at Minardi. He earned his stripes there and then came up to the main team.

28:53So there's always been examples of trying to nail that exceptional. So let's see who that next one's going to be. Did we forget Carlos Sainz? Did Carlos Sainz come in as a Red Bull junior? Didn't he start at Toro Rosso as well? Yes, he did. Yes, he did. Yeah, he did. Yeah, he had maxed with teammates at Toro Rosso in their first season. There have been a lot of question marks, though, I think, from people wondering, you know, seeing as Isaac's injury is not extreme and that he's taken a precaution to sit out at least a race and let's see potentially a second. But the idea is that he's probably going to be back in Monza.

29:27People wondering if Helmut Marker was still around, would he have been driving in Zanfurt or would he have been too concerned that his seat would be up for grabs by someone else? Yeah, I think he would have been in exactly the same situation because at the end of the day, you can't force someone to drive if they've got a broken hand. That falls down to the individual. Some drivers we've seen have missed sessions if they've got a little bit of an upset tummy or something like that. I guess from the old school generation that whatever it takes, you get in the car. I've driven with broken ribs and things like that.