“F*** OFF!” Is Guenther Steiner coming back to F1?

0:02This is a global production. A Mercedes. I think they found now the next Max Verstappen. Are you greedy? Are you mad? I get goosebumps. Do you ever rest? There was nobody like him. Brings a tear to my eye now. Would you ever come back to FYI? Leave me alone. F*** off now.

0:27Up to speed.

0:32Hey, it's David. It's Jolie. It's Gunther. Welcome to Up to Speed. Well, we've got a very special guest today. Introducing Gunther Steiner, drive-to-survive superstar, swearing extraordinaire, former team principal of Haas and now running Red Bull KTM Tech 3 Motor GP team. Welcome to the pod. It's so lovely to have you. Hello to everyone and thanks for having me, guys. I'm going to go in straight away. If I were to ask you now who is going to win the championship at the end of this season, who are you saying and why? Kimi. I think the guy is just doing an amazing... Six months ago, I wouldn't have said Kimi, but now it's like the guy is doing a good job.

1:20Mercedes is in a good place. Yeah, they didn't win last weekend, but they're doing a good job as well. I think Kimi will take it home. Me and you both. And DC, I think you're now with me as well. Yeah, Jolie's been singing about Kimi since before the season started, going how amazing he is. And so maybe you're visionary, Jolie, and maybe we're just too old, Gunther, that we hadn't looked at it closely enough. But the kid is super impressive. And I think one thing as well, you'll know this, Gunther, as an Italian speaker as well, is the communication of the family, the way they go about racing.

1:53They're very grounded. And I think this is something that Max has in his armory as well and others, of course. But I think this will give him longevity in the career. You know, he's not sort of a, you know, lottery winner and then everything's going to go to his head. They're settled. They live in San Marino. They have their comfort, you know, small principality. I really believe in the longevity. So well done to Kimi Antonelli. Well done to Mercedes for supporting him through and sticking with them in what was, let's say, an interesting but not an amazing first season of Formula 1 but clearly it was good grounding.

2:31Yeah absolutely I fully agree and the family thing I actually spoke with his father and I told him it's nice to see them when they interact and you know sometimes you see them interacting when they're not in the spotlight, when you're not playing with them or something like this. You can see it's genuine, you know there is something there, you know they are not doing it just, they love the sport they love to have success but they love their family as well. Now look I want to Gunter we go back a little bit so I want to touch on that before we get into all things. We go back too long David you know that means we are old you know compared to the young people on this thing yeah.

3:04Yeah exactly well Jolie's only 24 so we know what we were doing 24 years ago when she first went feed me but so right I my journey with you started 2005 with Red Bull when they acquired the Jaguar Formula One team, of which you'd been there as technical director. But before we get into the Formula One story, you had worked with another legendary Scot. You see how I tried to carry myself into legendary Scotsman because you'd worked in rallying and you've come up through. You've come up through getting your hands dirty as a mechanic, you've then become, you know, management, you know, you've done the engineering, you've done the technical side, but you worked with the late, great Colin McRae, who, to anyone that hasn't ever heard of Colin McRae listening to this podcast, go on YouTube, do yourself a favour and click on any in-car footage of Colin driving a rally car.

4:04He was, not to exaggerate on this, Gunther, but would you say he would be considered the sort of Schumacher of rallying or the Hamilton or the Verstappen of rallying. He was that good, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah. As you said, I mean, Colin, he was the Scottish legend. Sorry, no disrespect to you, DC. You know, no. I mean, Colin was so special also as a human being and you knew him pretty well as well, you know, so, you know, it's like for him, going fast was so easy. He didn't need to put effort into it. Everything came so easy. For him, it was just like, okay, I'm going to do this and that's it, you know, and the level of confidence he had in himself, self-confidence, I have never experienced that with anybody else.

4:50I mean, the guy was, whatever happened, for sure he could do it, you know, and obviously it took big risks as well, you know, as we know, but the level of speed, I was actually privileged to be a few times in rallying, you can go in the co-driver seat when you're testing because they need the ballast, you know, so anybody can sit in there, you know. So I did a few times I went with him and it's just his car control. It was amazing. And it wasn't, he seemed to be never at the limit. For him, everything was easy. It was just like, it was amazing. Yeah, he was incredible. Such a great loss, tragic loss to motorsport.

5:33But anyway, again, And for our listeners, go check out Colin McRae. Now, that brings us into your journey to Formula One and where you are now, actually, because I don't think in my mind, there's anyone that's had such a varied career to have been involved in rallying and four wheels, to have created a Formula One team out of nothing. And we're going to get into that a bit later, Jolie, aren't we? Just the challenges as we're seeing Cadillac go through that. And then you're now a shareholder in a MotoGP two-wheel team as well. So what the hell is it with you that you just want to do everything?

6:08Are you greedy? Are you mad? Are you just super talented? No, no, no. I'm not greedy because I'm not as rich as you as DC, you know. So it's not money greed, you know. I'm not Scottish, you know. No, I love motor cars or racing since I was a kid, you know. And I was fortunate enough to have been able to make a living out of it. Yeah, and I mean, look, you touched on it just before, saying how much you love motorsport, which we all know. And, you know, Formula One is the pinnacle of that. Would you ever come back to F1 with these new rules? Would you rather stay away? Have you done your time? We're on the inside.

6:47We always do. This is our job now. Yeah. I would come back if there is a project I like. I mean, I always say just to go back and do a job, no. There are so many things I like to do. And if you look at me, the last 10, 15 years was always, or even 20 years was always projects. It was not going for a job. Because just doing a job, it's actually, I wouldn't say boring to me, but there is not enough excitement. It needs to be something which really challenges me. And if there is a project, and you will be asking now, what means a project? A project means something you can shape yourself for to do.

7:24Not just going in, because I don't live by a job title. I couldn't care less about the job title. You know, for me, it's like doing something I like to do. It's like when I left Haas, I went into TV. I didn't know that that industry even existed. But then I got an off-point. I said I'd try it because I wanted to be as good as David. I didn't achieve it yet. And we all do. Long way to go, you know. It's hard. It's hard. It's impossible. But, you know, when you try to make – I mean, when I started an F1 team, they told me, you will never make that. Nobody can do that to start a new F1 team. Okay, I will show you.

8:00So I think it was easier to start an F1 team than to get as good as David on TV. But anyway, no, joking aside, you know, it's just one of these things. I said, oh, I try it if I like it. And I quite like to do a few races because it's first of all, you're staying around with the people you know, you're staying involved in, you can have fun. And you somehow give something back to people, your expertise, you know. All that little bit I've got. The responsibility of setting up a, and I suspect, I know you've been involved in NASCAR teams and now you've got the MotoGP team, but I suspect there's more people involved in a Formula One team.

8:36So you are, as a figurehead, you've persuaded Gene Haas that, you know, as part of his motorsport portfolio, he should come and promote his products and follow his passion in racing by having a Formula One team. But you're employing several hundred people. They look to you to make sure they get paid so their mortgages are paid so the kids can go to school. So how do you balance the passion that you have for your own interest in motorsport with the responsibility of if the checks don't come in, it's not just me that's worrying about paying my bills? Yeah, no, and you're touching on something very important to me.

9:12When I came up with the Haas F1 project, for example, I wanted to make sure that there is people behind it which can pay their bills, that there is the money there. And obviously, Gene has always paid his bills. We can, I mean, on that thing, very correct person on that one. But I've got my own company. And the most important thing to me is not for me making money, is to make sure that the people which are there are safe in their future. You know, that they've got a career in front of them, that their family, you know, is looked after and all that stuff. So it's, I think everybody starting a business, that should be number one on their list.

9:49And obviously in 2020, when COVID came, we were struggling. And my biggest thought was not what will happen with me if we don't, as a company, survive COVID, obviously, you know. It was more like we employed now hundreds of people. There's a lot of people living on this. I need to make sure that we continue out of this. And F1 was actually in the same boat because there was a lot of, you know, in 2020, nobody knew what will happen. what was going to happen. And everybody just worked to survive. But the biggest thing to survive was to make sure that everybody involved in the industry survives. Yeah, I mean, for sure.

10:28And speaking on new teams, what do you make of Cadillac and how they're doing? I mean, you've been in that position. You've seen it. You know, you've lived it. I guess two questions here, like a piece of advice that, you know, if anyone from there is listening that you'd like to give them, but also what you make of them as a team. I think how they're doing, I think we saw they're not very good, to say the least. I mean, we need to be honest, you know, about things. I think the expectation from a big company like Cadillac, for sure, it's better. It's higher than this. I mean, and F1 is brutal in that ways.

11:04And F1 has got one thing, which a lot of people, having not been there, underestimate. In F1, you cannot come up the ranks like you do in football. You go to the third league, to the second, and then to the first league. No, in F1, you cannot go F3, F2, F1. You come in from the side with the best of the best. And it's not easy. And you need to be aware of that. You need to be conscious of that, who you're going to compete with. And sometimes people get dragged away thinking, oh, I can do better than this. But the leveling formula one, it is very high. You know, they are the best engineers, the best drivers.

11:39Everything is on top. And the industry itself is so sophisticated. just to understand the sophistication, not even replicate it, is difficult, especially if you haven't been there. You know, it's easy talking. What you've got, you've got a lot of people around to tell you, yeah, yeah, you can do this because you are this great person with shitloads of money, you know. Money cannot buy you talent, you know. So you can buy talent, bring it in, but to attract them, you need, it's not only money, you need a vision. So I think for me giving advice to Cadillac, I don't want to do that because that is not my place to be in.

12:17I think some of the things they do very nicely, you know, I must admit, but competition-wise, they are not where I think they expect it to be. And I think they expect it, oh, we start a little bit slower than everybody because we are new and then we catch up. No, in F1, the opposite is happening, because you are trying to catch up with the best of people which were ahead of you before, and you are trying to catch up. So who the hell you think you are? Because these are the best of the best. And all of a sudden, you need to catch up. And to catch up, you need to be better than them. But if you were this good as they were, why are they already with them?

12:54So it's very confusing when I explain this, but it is a very difficult thing to do. But for everybody, for anybody, not only for the Cadillac people, this is not taking a person against anybody at Cadillac. This is just very difficult. If you get in there, you need to go in there with your eyes wide open. I think a signature of your career, Gunther, is your honesty. You say what you see. And you also, from what I've seen, accept that in giving an opinion, that's how you see it armed with the information you have. And if someone comes with more information that makes you change your opinion, that's one of the things that people in Formula One do.

13:30You go, oh yeah, yesterday I believed this. Now I know this today because I've got more information. So has there ever been, and it's made you obviously in this world of broadcasting and streaming, it's made you more famous than many of the team principals that you were competing against. But has that ever, give us an example of when that honesty, maybe before the cameras were involved in the way they are, was a hindrance and where it's actually served you consistently well in your career because you know we could call it brutal honesty but you know i brutal for me and honesty are kind of hand in hand for me this is the logic way to do things and and you know i i can i can also agree to disagree you have got a different opinion that for me doesn't make you a bad person it's just like okay I disagree.

14:21So, you know, two words back there, and they're not Merry Christmas, but anyway. So, no, but it's one of these things. I give you my opinion, and if you disagree, I'm perfectly fine, because I allow you to have your opinion, like you need to, because some people think we need always to have the same opinion about things. No, things can be different, and I'm perfectly okay with that. And, you know, sometimes when you make comments or say something and you realize afterwards that maybe you overdid it or you made it wrong, I've never a problem to apologize or go and clarify. Hey, as you said before, I got more information now.

14:56Maybe I was wrong at that moment. But nobody, when you speak with people, that is how I see it. I give you the chance to say, no, you see it because of this, this and this. It's different. Okay. But then I say, but I still see it. Like, you know, for me, it's just like, this is how I am. I cannot be different. I cannot just give you an opinion just to please you. Because, again, it doesn't help me and doesn't help you. That's my opinion about it. But I'm fine. I walk away without, you know, if you disagree with me and you know me, I'm perfectly fine, David. I mean, I'm going to say hello to you tomorrow.

15:32I'm not falling out with you about it just because you have a different opinion. And I think that's how it should be. And that is how you make progress. as well, you know, and because then you reflect, because if you always agree, like, I always dislike people which work for me and always told me that I'm right. I said, it cannot be that I'm always right. I'm good, but I'm not this good, you know. So give me your opinion, at least we can make progress, you know. I mean, speaking of opinions, there's a lot going around right now of Max Verstappen. Will he move? Will he leave the sport? Where should he go?

16:07Or should he stay? What's your opinion on Max? Max has got opinions as well. That's good to flexing, but I'm not going to let you get away with it. Max has got a lot of opinions. What I think the problem for Max in the moment is, after yesterday's race, if you would have asked me four days ago, going to McLaren, it's a sideways move. After yesterday, maybe it isn't a sideways move, but things change since last weekend, let's call it like this. You know, so, but for me, it was like, if Max goes somewhere, obviously wants to go somewhere, which is better than Red Bull. And there's not many teams around better than Red Bull.

16:45Maybe Red Bull in the moment is not where they want to be, you know, at the forefront like they were a few years ago. But it's still one of the big four good teams, you know. And I think at Ferrari, the seats are filled. At Mercedes, obviously, I think they found now the next Max Verstappen. So maybe they don't need the real Max Verstappen. in the moment. And then was McLaren. But McLaren, until a few days ago, was like, are they really better than Red Bull? Because I think Red Bull has got one advantage. They've got their own engine now, which is an advantage, you know, if you've got a Volkswagen engine.

17:20I mean, McLaren is doing very well having a Mercedes customer engine. But in the end, that would be the only possibility. And I don't know if that possibility even exists. You know, there was the rumor that maybe Oscar could go to Red Bull and things like this. But I think that is the biggest thing for Max. If Max goes somewhere, he wants to go to the best team around. So just building on that then, Gunther, one thing that I've realized more in retirement from being a driver, because when you're a driver, you selfishly look out through your visor and you're just, you feel the car, you feel the performance, and therefore it all kind of makes sense in terms of what the limitation is for going faster.

17:57And then you're the voice of the car back to the engineers and they make the magic happen. But being away from the driving seat, then I find it quite difficult to get the information to see the bigger picture. So as a team principal within the sport, how much are you looking within at your team and how much are you having to know what the driver market is, talking to managers, talking to the commercial rights holders? There's like, you must be constantly on the phone or constantly in meetings to get all this information. Yeah, you always try to get as much as possible. And, you know, but if you're in there, if that is your daily job, that is what you're doing.

18:42You know, that's what you have to do as a team principal. You need to have the information. Then sometimes say, oh, we saw this team principal with this and this driver manager. That doesn't mean anything. You just need to speak with these people to see if you can learn something. And obviously, you always learn when you speak to people or normally you learn, you know. So that is what you're doing. Sometimes it's not even speaking about the subject of I want that driver. You just want to feel out if he knows more about the market than you. You know, you exchange information. And that's what it is.

19:14And, you know, with the promoter, you always go and see, for example, Stefano, you know, and just see, hey, what is happening? because sometimes it's not like people keep information away from you intentionally. It's just like not everybody has got all the time always to inform everyone. And when you sit down, you know, casually, sometimes it's easier to get to information than when you always try to make meeting, official meetings, let's talk about two things. But every industry is the same. I mean, if you want to be in the industry and be informed about it, you better have your connections and you speak with people and be informed.

19:50But I think when you were a driver, you spoke with other drivers to see where they are at, what their car is doing, just to find out a little bit how the environment is. Yeah, I would also speak to the girlfriends and wives because they would often give you more information. Yeah, but you were trying to do something different there with the girlfriends and wives. But hey, we don't go there. You know, we don't go there. That is private DC podcast then, you know. And then this is where my job comes in to swiftly move us on. We all know Formula One is so cut through. I guess a little bit more of an insight into MotoGP.

20:26Is that as cut through? You know, it's not a sport that we've discussed much on this podcast. So I think it'd be really interesting for our audience to know. Yeah, it is like, for me, when I got into it, I needed to, and I'm still learning, I needed to learn a lot. But for me, it's like a little bit more like going back when Formula One was 20 years ago, I would say, you know, it's not as cutthroat. I mean, obviously, there is competition, but it's not as sophisticated like Formula One is now, you know, because as I said before, Formula One reached a level of sophistication in all elements, you know, the commercial aspects, the guest aspect.

21:08Everybody's at a very high level. Obviously, the drivers need to follow that one because their schedule is like always perfectly organized, everything. In MotoGP, it's a little bit more still casual, you know. some of the decisions are not as well thought true as they are in Formula One. But, you know, having been in motorsport a long time, it's a little bit going back in time. But we always have to remember there is nothing out there or no motorsport as sophisticated that is well managed and organized as Formula One. So this is not saying that MotoGP is not well organized and well done and sophisticated.

21:45It's just like Formula One, the last 10 years, they improved so much, you know, and I think, and I'm not involved in other sports like football and stuff like this, but I do not think that any other sport is as so professional as Formula One is right now. So just bringing it back on to Formula One then, a lot has been publicised about the new regulations. I think all of us probably were slightly wide-eyed and concerned for Formula One after what we saw in Melbourne. But slowly but surely, Formula One's done exactly like you said. It's the best. It's the pinnacle. They've improved the deficiencies.

22:23We've had, what would you say, Julie, earlier today, you said it was five different winners in the last five Grand Prix. Different race winners, yeah, in the last five races. Which would suggest a very competitive Formula One season. Still not perfect, but I think it was Toto Wolff that said we needed to go too far with these regulations to really understand where Formula One lives. And that to me would suggest that we've gone too much with this electrical electrification. We're going to come back in the future, but it's going to take two or three years before we can be there. So just as a sort of summary, would you agree with what Toto had said there?

22:58And how do you see the future of Formula One and where it should sit? I think I would half agree, but I would say what I was surprised in Australia, because, and you know how well Formula One normally prepares themselves. And when I saw Australia, and I think it was the same, wow, I didn't expect this. And you think like, I mean, this is all possible to simulate what is happening. You know, this is not 100%, but 95%. And to start up with that, I was surprised, obviously. And then, again, as you said, Formula One can make up immediately. You know, they got ghetto immediately for Miami. But why we didn't start off on a level like we were in Miami?

23:42That's what surprised me because it wasn't difficult to do. You know, it's just fine-tuning some stuff. And then the longer term, as going next year to more percentage of combustion engine, and then in 28, a little bit more again. And I think that could be, and Formula One is good in adapting. They see that it was, this is not perfect. We need to adjust it. And I think it's the right way to go. But we always have to think back when these rules, when these regulations were invented. I mean, we all thought the future of the car is electric. And that didn't happen. You know, obviously, I think the future of electric will happen, but not as we maybe expected five years ago to take over 100%.

24:27there will be a choice of technologies, how we move on the road in normal life, you know. So I think that's where we came up with these rules at the time. And maybe the next rules will be different. It will be set with the sustainable fuel. Why do we bother too much about electricity if we can have sustainable fuel, which is net zero anyway? So, you know, something to think. But five years ago, when these rules were decided, we didn't know what we know now. And I think now the next decision will be based on our knowledge now, which is a lot more than we had five years ago. But the good thing is with Formula One, it always adapts and finds solutions.