Is Lewis Hamilton OUT of world championship fight after DNF in Madrid?

0:02This is a global production. We used to get a million dollars as a bonus, or certainly I got a million dollars when I won a race. How much did you get if you won a race? Something similar.

0:13DC:But didn't you kind of owe him money anyway because he got a race ban for something you did to him? But he did favour you. He liked you more than he liked me. Okay. history keeps repeating itself and we definitely had incredible challenges together when i see george go through the difficulties that he's doing right now i can relate to why is this guy finding time that i'm not finding without my support he would never have won a world championship is that really how you feel mika no

0:49DC:up to speed

0:55DC:It's Naomi. It's David. It's Mika. Welcome to Up to Speed. So for seven seasons, they shared a garage, fought on track for wins, listened in on each other's debriefs, and apparently couldn't even train together because that's how competitive they were. Yet somehow, here we are with Up to Speed in Manchester, because these two are now buddies on tour with racing icons. Gentlemen, thank you for being here today There's a lot that we want to get into But I think that with everything that's going on in Formula 1 today All of the team-made tension that's going on Who better to get on the show than our very own David Coulthard And two-time world champion Mika Hakkanen Look at him, look at him You know what, actually It's funny when you mention about the team-made battles right now A lot of what's been unfolding And even last year when Lando and Oscar were sort of toe-to-toe going towards deciding which one of those were going to be a champion, we've been through all that 20-odd years ago.

1:57So I think history has a habit of repeating itself. And I think, as you'll hear in Mika's own words, he undoubtedly recognised, without my support, he would never have won a world championship.

2:08DC:Is that really how you feel, Mika? No, a little bit. No, no, David said exactly correct. and I thought it was seven years actually. Was it six years? Seven seasons. Yeah, it felt longer. We got the seven-year edge and then we separated. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you're right about the history. History keeps repeating itself and we definitely had incredible challenges together, you know, on the racetrack. Now, looking back, it gives you a smile in the face and it was fun but that moment when we were there, it was not easy I tell you what no way you could make a friendship with your teammate what you try to all the time be it flat out out there it was so challenging David tried a couple of times but it didn't work out One of the things that I've discovered doing the tour with Mika when we were so competitive and trying to hide from each other what we were discovering because the data was there on the cars, but it wasn't as sophisticated.

3:14You know, you've raced in an era where you can literally see every channel of your competitor's performance. So you were always trying to hide as much as you could to try and get an advantage.

3:23DC:Well, look, Mika's becoming a bit of a familiar face to Up to Speed, and we got to hear a little bit about his story, which I know you mentioned yourself, DC, that we probably could do hours more to hear all the details. But today I want to hear a little bit about your relationship, the two of you, where it began, how it went, and obviously how we've got to being here today in Manchester for your tour. But first of all, if I can get an insight to when you first met and what your first impressions of each other were. Sounds like an old couple. When did you first meet? What was your first date? We dated the track.

3:59Yeah, we met, I think, probably already, I think, 94.

4:06DC:But I don't remember particularly exactly. Very memorable days. But naturally, when you become my teammate, I don't think it was at the factory. I don't think it was back in the factory. I think it was in a strip club in my home. That's probably why Mika's hesitating to mention where you guys first met. Yeah. No, we knew each other, of course, on track. Okay. Because in 94, I started in Formula 1. Mika had already been in Formula 1 for a couple of years with Lotus and then joining McLaren. You clearly remember that pretty vividly, that incident. When you found out you were going to be teammates, was it like rainbows and sunshine or was there a little bit like…

4:48DC:For me, it was the case because it was just after my accident. So, I had a big shunt in 1995 and I cracked my skull and I was a couple of months in the hospital. And then I decided because the accident happened in the last Grand Prix, so I had to recover. So I did the test in the end of January or something. And then I decided to come back to race with McLaurin. And then McLaurin announced that David is going to be my teammate. I said, David, okay. Oh, it's him, the guy. Yeah, okay, this is going to be fun. And David is a very straightforward guy. He doesn't try to find some diplomatic words. It's just very direct.

5:39DC:And it's interesting. And that is his character. So sometimes it's motor racing if your teammate is asking, what about that corner, are you going flat? I said, yeah, I'm going flat. And David goes like, I don't believe you. So it was quite a challenge beginning. But then I think we got, well, I got maybe more relaxed. and then it got better. From your side, it is easier. Yeah, it's a misnomer, isn't it, teammate? Because if he's winning, I'm losing. If I'm winning, he's losing. So it's a very unusual situation. But the fact that we were teammates for seven years or seven seasons is a long time.

6:27It's unusually long. But we were both relatively young in our growth through Formula One at that time. our ego was up here yeah yeah he had a huge ego but yeah we you know we both were full of hopes and desires and when we came together in 96 McLaren were not particularly competitive and I'd left 95 Williams who were you know winning Grand Prix's so it was probably a bit more of a shock for me than it was for for Mika and then in 97 I won the first race of the year in Melbourne so I was you know I was up and running within the team as a race winner Mika still hadn't won and it took until the end of the season for him to win in Jerez so by that point going into 98 which is when McLaren came up or Adrian Newey came up with this car that just dominated the field we were a bit like George and Kimi you know we were kind of even in our performances and both going in thinking this is our year this is it yeah it suited Mika more he took more out of it he was better over the course of that year, he wins the world championship and, you know, I finished, I think, third.

7:33I think Michael was second to you. But, so we had a quick car, but it was that generation of unreliable cars. So, yeah. And then, you know, we're often running to 99. The car was still good and Mika wins again. And then by the time I started got on top of the car again was, I think, 2000, if any second. But again, to Michael this time rather than to Mika. so yeah it was just you know I was like finger tipping so when I see George go through the difficulties that he's doing right now maybe I didn't have quite so much soul searching as he's had but I can relate to the hold on a minute I thought what's going on why is this guy just finding time that I'm not finding so it's an interesting one isn't it yeah it is it is but Coming back a little bit to the thing that way,

8:27DC:obviously the management of the McLaren saw that, you know, we are not so friends, you know. So how long did that go on for, the not-so-friend phase? Well, what, a few years. Till tomorrow. But it was really great that way the management did recognize that and they did, I think particularly in year 97, you know, They really put us to understand that way. We cannot make this team to split in half that way. One party supporting me and one party supporting David. We have to work together outside of the car. And to show the team that way we are working together. But when we put the Kraselmet on, then you can guys fight.

9:14DC:And that's what it worked, my opinion. Ron took us on holidays together we went ski trips together we went to his home in the south of France so he organised a lot of social events where we were together and surprisingly you might think he was comfortable if we were drinking, he was comfortable if we were skiing, all the things that you would think today you weren't supposed to The good old days Absolutely, so it did help build the, let's say the friendship off track to the point where you know even at the rebel excuse me mclaren uh christmas parties did mika put my kilt on i put on his black tie outfit without telling anyone wait a wait hang on you can't just skip past that can you explain can you explain what happened there yeah we were just we were at the annual christmas party and i'm in my kilt he's in his black tie and we were taken backstage to go out and be interviewed on stage so we'd been there with all the team and so i don't know why we decided at that moment but quickly changed into each other's kit obviously i didn't have underwear so it was more of an issue for for mika i think than than for me and then we come out on stage like that so we're just always doing little silly things and i remember wearing a ballerina outfit at one of the christmas parties as well pink pink ballerina white stockings and yeah yeah we did some weird stuff actually come to think of it i mean it sounds like great stuff i wish i could have been a fly on the wall on some of those Christmas parties.

10:42DC:But yeah, as you say, obviously, it's such a tough relationship to manage, isn't it? At the end of the day, you know, I think Toto is very good at the moment, at least from a public perspective and saying that no matter what's going on on track, these two drivers are employees of a team. And therefore, they have to put the team's interest first. But the reality of it is you've got two racing drivers on track who both want to be on the top step of the podium every time and want to win the world championships. So So managing those emotions are tricky, aren't they? I mean, Mika, I think you mentioned in the last episode you joined us on that you felt that Oscar and Lando were both not very emotional last year.

11:18DC:Would you guys have described yourselves the same way or was there one that was more emotional or less emotional?

11:26You were more emotional.

11:29DC:I'm not so sure about that. Yeah, it depends. you know we had a tough time you wouldn't speak to me on the podium after in Spa because we touched at the first corner so I went on and won the race I get out of the car normally you'd go up and shake cans I wasn't very happy after that what year was that? 99 maybe? no 2000 2000 was it in Spa? so we're on the podium and Adrian knew he was there with us and Mika is like looking like death you know he's looking like he wants to stab me he's still been on the podium wouldn't speak wouldn't speak to me and uh so obviously you were more emotional yes yeah sometimes but uh i think what hurt most that way we had a we had a very challenging time at mclaren we had quite a few failures quite a engine failures and and some mechanical failures and i and because the team was putting this machine absolutely on the limit and sometimes it just blew up and it and and you know i think for me like year 97 was really tough because i was leading silverstone i was leaving leading a new boring grand prix uh something else also and every time the engine blew up so so emotionally it's constant fight you know you try to be cool calm and collective and you know but sometimes you know it's really hard and you know both of Of course, you understand that.

12:58DC:And sometimes he would just like to say, what do you really think? Or tell us now, what did you really think? Yes, what did you really think, Mika? This is a safe space. But McLaren, we had a different kind of rules. And we were quite educated with that, to select with our words, how we communicate for the public. Yeah, Ron controlled that quite a bit, didn't he? Yeah, a lot. he didn't like. I suppose strong leadership is crucial, isn't it? When you have two teammates battling for wins or battling for a championship, and Ron from what I hear anyway. Ron was a tough character. If he was not happy, you knew.

13:39He would call you into the office. An example would be there was a British Grand Prix around that era, which was a wet race, wet dry, wet dry. And you know when the engineers are telling the driver it's going to rain in two laps. I got completely out of sequence. So they'd call me in and then I'd change tires and then whatever tire I had on, if it was slicks, it started to rain again. You know, so I did seven pit stops. So afterwards I did an interview and there used to be a black and white TV program called the Keystone Cops. And it was just like they were, I don't know, like a fire engine or something.

14:12And there was always guys falling off the fire engine. It was just like a comedy thing. So I did an interview and said, look, the team today was like Keystone Cops. Ron read this the Monday morning and I was off doing a charity golf event in England and I got a phone call saying, come to the factory. So I had to leave the charity event to go there to sit outside his office for like an hour and a half. He kept me sitting there and then brought me in and moving things on his desk and not speaking to me. And then eventually he goes, you do not ever say that the team are blah, blah, blah. This is, we work for you to build you.

14:47So he goes off on like an hour ranting at me. And then he was like, anything you want to say? And I'm like, sorry. And that was it. So he was a tough character. And then we crashed into each other a couple of times. So you can imagine, you know, we're both outside going, fuck, right? Let's get our stories straight. So, yeah. But, you know, we learned a lot.

15:10DC:Yeah, it worked that time very well indeed. I think that at that time the generation probably needed this kind of very high discipline and really a little bit like an army type of operation. Did you do national service in Finland? Yeah, I did. Did you? 11 months. Wow. What did you learn? Well, it's a top secret. I cannot tell you that.

15:41DC:Did you get a posting somewhere? Or was it during the winter? It was winter. It was incredible. It was very tough. You had to stay two weeks in the forest and in the wintertime. In Finland in the winter, in the forest. Sleep in a tent. Very strict. It was an incredible experience.

16:03DC:You learn a lot. You learn a lot. And when I try to say that, you know, how would I say this? How horrible a human being can be, you know, because, you know, it's very strict, of course. But the behavior of some leaders in that army, you know, they've really given you a tough time. But it's all about learning. It's a discipline. You know, it's young guys over there and, you know, they're not organized this stuff. the bail is not organized. So you get penalties and you will learn. And of course, then you learn the tactics of the war, how if something happens. And of course, Finland, we have the longest border of Russia.

16:53DC:So army naturally is very developed in Finland. Actually, that reminds me of the time we were doing Race of Champions in Sweden. and we drove after the event to go to, Mika's involved in a health and wellbeing facility called Octola, which is amazing. It's limited amount of rooms. So it's very small groups of people that go there. And we, of course, are having some drinks in the Mercedes Vito on the way there and we're bursting on a pee. So just before we get to the Finnish border, we stop and get out and we're having a pee. But as we were doing that into the snow and don't eat the yellow snow kids.

17:31Do you have to tell everybody the DJ? Oh my God, I'm like, okay, where's this going? But I look over and I can see the Finnish police border control looking at us and they've got their guns and everything and I'm like, okay, this might be, so we get in the car, drive to them and of course they're not happy and they open the van, thankfully, because he's a bit of a big deal to see me, kind of take their fingers off the triggers and it's like, ah, welcome, welcome to Finland. But that could have been, yeah. You've always got to have a Finnish legend in your vehicle if you're traveling into Finland.

18:05Otherwise, I would have had the full strip search, I think.

18:08DC:I will add that into my list of things to keep in mind. Yeah, travel with a Mika. Yeah, travel with a Mika. But look, that sounds like another great bonding experience for the two of you. One that probably is added to a very long list of bonding experiences. Yeah, well, being in a sauna with Mika, and Kari does it traditional style, I've seen much more of Mika than any other teammate, I can assure you. Can you confirm that, Mika? What can I say? I can't say anything. Okay, don't go anywhere because in a minute I'm going to ask these two about their toughest conversation with a team principal. But in the meantime, head over to socials and follow us.

18:45DC:It's at UpToSpeedShow. And please go and subscribe on YouTube.

18:54DC:Okay, so the list of bonding experiences is pretty long. Just to go back to Ron for a second, And I want to know, what was the toughest debriefs you ever had with him? And I think you also recounted one with Adrian Newey after your incident in Austria. But just what were some of the toughest conversations that you both were sort of brought into the, you know, headmaster's office and got told off? So we crashed together in Esterelle, 96. You spun me around. We crashed together in Austria in 98 or 99. And I spun you around. That was the one that Adrian was not happy. Um, can you, was which the, the Estoril one, Ron was, was, was not very impressed.

19:37DC:Yeah. But, you know, I think one, but it's a racing incident in one sense. It should not happen between the teammates, of course, but sometimes it just happens. Well, I remember one thing was quite a, quite a tough one. And I think this was in 97 when Ron told David and me that we don't understand data enough. Yeah. Remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was quite, it was really tough to take that because we really worked hard and we did so much testing and we studied data so much. And he was really pushing us on a limit that way we don't have enough knowledge. basically and and i didn't agree with that so so it really hurt as it you know because of course ron was aware of how much we are testing how much we do marketing how much we do racing but making that kind of comment because we were professional you know so it was tough to take this kind of comment criticism but sorry just to go back to my point the reason why i was asking if you felt that there were any sort of grinch team principles today is to your point and being maybe felt hard done by by Ron when he criticized your potential lack of knowledge of data which you disagree with do you think that that made you better because he pushed you to your limit or do you think that actually being given confidence and being supported is better what do you think I believe it it made me better better racing driver you know because sometimes you don't see yourself you know people from outside see much better what is happening with you and like I said we were testing so much and working so hard but sometimes you know it's just you you think you are in this highest level but you have to go to the next level it's always the next level it's like you go when you're doing exercise and you you're running example you know two months later you can run much further you know and the data is the same thing and the data is developing so fast all the time.

21:41DC:New stuff coming in all the time. And that, especially in our time, I felt that way, the development with all the data went really fast. Like today, of course, also. So you need to move with the same speed with that. I think it was good what he said. But he did. I think, yeah. But he did favor you. He liked you more than he liked me. Okay.

22:13no actually I felt that and one of the things I've said this before but just very quickly the very first Grand Prix I did for the Team 96 Ron came into the DB from Australia and I stood up instinctively to go and shake his hand because he's the boss and it's my first race weekend and he sort of ignores me goes to Mika's side of the table and says what are we doing and then Mika's engineer explains the programme and then he looks over my side of the table and goes what are they doing and at that moment I'm thinking I'm they. And anyway, it took a few years of me saying to Ron, it feels like you're a bit more supportive than Mika.

22:46And he always, of course, denied. And then eventually he went, look, I stood over his hospital bed. He's fractured his skull. He's had an induced coma. I didn't know if he was going to survive. I didn't know if you would have permanent damage. Mika mentioned that he's got hearing damage off the back of that particular incident. And so when he explained it to me like that and Ron had never lost a racing driver before. I mean, some team principals have lost racing drivers, of course, because it's a dangerous sport. So once he explained that, I'm not a psycho. I could rationally understand that the bond was one of fatherly looking at a young man with life support.

23:30So I never, it never bothered me again after that.

23:33DC:How did he admit that? That was probably 99 or something around that, maybe even 2000. It was a few years. You know, I would go to Ron regularly and sit in his office and go, it just feels that you're just, you know. Yeah. Like there was an example when one particular year in Monaco, Mika and I were trading pole position. So I'd be in the garage and Mika would go out and he would get pole and I would see the pit wall going like this. And I would go, I was on pole. And now they're, and then of course I'd go out and go quicker and there'd be no well i couldn't see it because i'm out on track so he's probably looking at the pit wall thinking why are they cheering so these little things we're sensitive souls and of course what you see is what that's your knowledge that's your information so you need a good people around you but as you say when you were mentioning about the relationship with the race engineer i think to your point as a racing driver particularly when there's an intra-team battle, there's a lot of paranoia maybe going on of who's saying what to who and are they favoring this person or that person?

24:35DC:So you clearly have mentioned you felt that you were not the favorite child. Mika, at any point, did you have any paranoia about not being the favorite or did you always know you were the favorite? I love that question. I didn't think about it, honestly. That's so Finnish of you. Yeah, I really didn't. I didn't want to think about it because it is easy to start thinking about, maybe he has a better gearbox or something or brakes or whatever. I didn't think about that. I just tried to focus my own work and driving and that's it because I knew it would not help. If I have a proof that David would have had something better, engine or something i would have gone to see you know that time dave ryan or ron dennison said what's going on here it's great these these emotions that you go through in sports the end of that journey you know i've seen me get with tears of joy and i've seen me get with tears of you know frustration so when you go through a roller coaster relationship with someone and and you've experienced all that together you you've you know we have a strong bond today we We have a friendship today that was not there when we were racing because I know him.