Is Max Verstappen off to McLaren with his race engineer?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. If he doesn't stay at Red Bull Racing, that means he doesn't stay in Formula One. Why would they want to do anything that gives your competitors an advantage? I've seen rumours over the weekend of an Oscar and Max swaps. How does this affect Max? How does this affect GP? Change is not a bad thing. It looks like a clear obvious that he's leaving Red Bull. This is absolutely mega. Does that signal the absolute final act of Max Verstappen and Red Bull Racing?

0:45It's Will. It's David. Stacey's mic working. Yeah, how did that go off? We can't hear you, DC. What the f*** going on there? We're just playing with you, DC. You were fine all along. Ah, you f***.

1:01Gianpiero Lambiase:Oh, I don't know how you kept it together, Will. I was living it.

1:08Right, let's go. For real. It's Will. It's David. It's Joly. Welcome to Up To Speed. And big news this week. Max Verstappen's race engineer for his entire tenure at Red Bull Racing, Jan Piero Lambezi will be joining McLaren from 2028. Guys, this throws up so many questions. But DC, I guess first and foremost, big thing to talk about, and you can attest to this better than anybody, the relationship between driver and engineer. It's one of the most critical in Formula One. It is. And I've said in the past, you know, a race engineer is not only someone that understands vehicle dynamics, aerodynamics, you know, aero models, and all of the other good things that you need to deal with when they're setting up a race car.

1:56But they're also part psychologists because, you know, over the course of a season, a driver will have weekends when he's feeling on a high, they'll have weekends when he's feeling on a low, just a natural ebb and flow of life. And they've got to be able to know when to give them a kick and when to give them a tickle and everything in between. And I think that some of the great driver engineering pairings that we can recall over the years have seen that relationship be displayed publicly. You know, I think one of the things we've noticed with Lewis since he left Mercedes and went to Ferrari, and he had such a strong relationship with Bono at Mercedes, is he hasn't found that same relationship at Ferrari yet.

2:38And you see how frustrating that's been for him. I think back to, do you remember Days of Thunder? Of course. The movie, the Tom Cruise movie. There's this great moment in the movie where um cole trickle tom hanks's character has to go and get an mri and he's freaking out in the in closed space and they're like are you okay and he says yeah i'm just you know normally when i'm in my race car i have i have a guy in my ear and it's it's harry it's his engineer and and i think that really it may sound silly but i think that really kind of exemplified the importance of that that role of somebody making you feel okay no matter if it's going well or if it's going bad you have that consistent voice in your ear that is kind of the voice of calm but it's not always calm between max and gp and that and that is another facet of this relationship that i that i love because gp doesn't put up with max's and i i've always really enjoyed that yeah i think the the importance of the the relationship is is absolutely clear you know it's more than as you say a professional relationship there's got to be absolute trust the driver has to believe 100 percent his race engineer was doing everything he can to fight his corner which is why we've discussed in previous podcasts I was uncomfortable during McLaren's campaign last year that at times it felt that the engineer was giving instructions to the driver that were coming from the team principal and I think or the sporting director and I just feel that you've got to separate you should not come between that bond of trust that is there between race engineer and driver but that said, a little bit like, well, has any driver spent a long career with only one team?

4:19Drivers will always have sort of beginning and middle and end to their careers. And that usually involves more than one team. And it usually involves having relationships with more than one engineer. And although that's very much the working relationship that we all hear played out in television, but of course it extends to the number one mechanic, the number two mechanic, you know the data engineer all of the other people that are directly operational on your car are pulling for your side of the garage no i mean i love it i've been seeing a lot of radio compilations and you can tell they're they're more like brothers than anything i've seen clips that they play paddle together they do a lot you know on and off the track which is super important and max's first win in f1 was also gp's first win in f1 so he said before that he actually learned how to win because of Max.

5:11So they're definitely exceptionally strong together and we can see that. But 2028 is also when Max's contract ends at Red Bull. It's been made quite clear that the Verstappen camp knew about this happening and gave him a blessing. So what does this make for Max? I mean, for me, it looks like a clear obvious that he's leaving Red Bull, not necessarily a sport. I don't know what you two think. I think the big thing here is if it was just GP, you'd probably pass it off and say, well, it's just one member of the team, right? But over the last year, Max at Red Bull has now lost Christian, Helmut, Adrian Newey, Jonathan Wheatley.

5:56Chief designer, Craig Skinner. Yeah. And GP, you know, they've all departed. And Max is the only one of that top line that's left. And after a while, you start to wonder, you know, how many more people need to go before Max takes a look at the team? And he probably already does, takes a look at the team and says, this is not the place and this is not the group with whom I won all of my world championships. And at what point does that unsettle a driver enough to signal that, well, the beginning of the end may already be upon us. But at what point does that signal the absolute final act of Max Verstappen and Red Bull Racing?

6:42And I think that's a really fascinating thing to delve into. I think the relationship between Max and Red Bull will endure, whether it's him racing for them in Formula One in the future. But I think the bond that's there between Austria and Max Verstappen and his family is something that will. I don't expect to see him suddenly turn up as a monster athlete. but clearly as I said earlier nothing lasts forever in this game and Max is a competitive animal and if Red Bull are struggling longer term to when I say longer term I mean longer term this year to show signs that they're getting back towards winning ways in the future then of course he's going to look at where his career is best served But that's fascinating because if we determine that no matter what Max does it will be with Red Bull backing if he doesn't stay at Red Bull racing, that means he doesn't stay in Formula One because he's not going to go down to racing balls.

7:42So you don't think there's, I've seen rumours over the weekend of an Oscar and Mac swap. You know, they're saying that McLaren and Mark Webber's relationship is causing a strain on Oscar and McLaren. Are you, Will, then saying a firm no chance of Macs going to McLaren? That's not what, listen, DC was the one who said that Macs would be a Red Bull athlete no matter what. um i listen i think i think those rumors are fascinating i think with oscar you know and and rebel have had their eye so rebel initially had their eye on lando when lando was doing f2 they tried to sign him up to what we now know as racing bulls um and that you know they've had their eye on lando for a long time they then kind of shifted the warmth away from lando and more towards oscar i remember christian being asked over the last couple of years about you know which mclaren driver would you want to take and he was unequivocal that for red bull oscar now was by far and away the driver that they would prefer to have on their team over over lando and if a team such as red bull was able to offer oscar the number one um you know position at the team the absolute definitive number one no shared um preferential treatment with with with a fellow driver would you take that possibly you know and red bull clearly now are in the process whether they wanted to or not of having to rebuild everything at that team why not rebuild with someone like oscar why not for oscar go somewhere and and help to build that team up it's i think we're in a very very interesting um scenario but i don't think you know i i think they're mutually exclusive i don't think one thing begets the other uh necessarily a quick question from roses for f1 who says if mclaren has a choice to hire Max will they take it by dropping Oscar or Lando oh it's a good question I don't think Lando's going anywhere I think he's he's part of that family Zach has been part of his management team since way before Formula One so um yeah it would take a breakdown in relations for him to move and I think there were already the rumors last year and there's no smoke without fire in Formula One that Oscar or Oscar's team were already putting feelers out.

9:56There was a joke, wasn't there, halfway through last year that Oscar had been learning Italian. Yeah. I mean, look, if Max is available and still has the hunger for F1 critically, then my God, there's going to be a bidding war. I agree. And look, I don't think everyone's saying, this could mean Max is leaving F1. I don't think so. And Josh Verstappen, Max's dad, came out and said that he believes Max will continue racing without GP. And when he was asked about the line that Max mentioned in a press conference a couple of years ago, where he said, if GP stops, I stop. Joss, you know, backed that up by saying, he said that after he won his first championship and after achieving now four world titles, he believes his stance has changed.

10:38So Joss has come out quite firm on this, that, you know, he's also mentioned it's actually not for Max to sit here and replace GP. It's Red Bull's, you know, it's Red Bull's duty. And we know Joss has been quite outspoken before, but at the end of the day, Max's race engine is replaceable, his dad isn't. So I don't think that they would be coming out with things that don't necessarily align. I think Max probably would have wanted that to come out of Joss. Well, yeah, I think that they both, as we know, are very open with what you see is what you get, you know, their heart on the sleeve kind of approach to life.

11:16There's not many mixed messages normally. You know exactly where you stand. I just want to throw open another thought as we sort of contemplate the fact that GP will be moving on. He's still got a contract with Red Bull. We expect him to still continue in that contract. But of course, one of the tricky moments for Red Bull is he can't walk out of the factory with a laptop with all the data at the end of the year. but what's in your mind you're allowed to take with you so there'll be a point where they're going to want to say look you can't really be working on this car or you certainly can't be across any of the discussions about developments going into 2027 and beyond so that becomes an awkward scenario now i've been there as a driver where i at the end of 1995 i'd already signed to join mclaren and you still go about the race weekend in a normal fashion but i wasn't anymore allowed to go into certain areas in the factory when I went to Williams.

12:16Understandably so, because I'm moving to another team. So it just starts to erode the relationship and make it a little bit of a compromise. So what McLaren, I'm sure, would be hoping is that Red Bull would release GP early from his contract, release the obligation to pay his salary and allow him to join McLaren early. But on the other side, why would they want to do anything that gives your competitors as an advantage i do not believe we will see gp at red bull racing in 2027 and i think that the announcements were worded very delicately and very precisely by both mclaren and red bull that leaves an opportunity for an early exit um and while we're on the subject like let's not just frame this as how does this affect max how does this affect gp i'm delighted for him he's great guy he's a really really great guy and he's done his time you know he started goodness over 20 years ago with jordan um went through their transition into midland f1 spiker force india you know um started out as a performance engineer worked his way up got brought into red bull racing and now finds himself, you know, head of racing at Red Bull and will become chief racing officer for McLaren, which is one of the roles that Andrea Stella holds at the moment.

13:42He's essentially becoming, you know, a de facto deputy team principal. This is a promotion into a position that I don't think he would have been offered or would have had at Red Bull Racing. So to be able to have that with McLaren, with the reigning champions, it shows again the desire uh the intent from mclaren to bring in the very best of the best it also shows that they are now allowing andrea to concentrate on one specific thing rather than wearing two hats give one of those hats to gp it places gp firmly in the in a role where he could potentially move up to be team principal at some point in the future if andrea goes off and does something else or moves to a different team.

14:21For GP, this is absolutely mega. And I'm over the moon for him. I think it's a fantastic move. And when you get offered a chance to go and do something a bit different and an opportunity comes up that you wouldn't have found in the role that you had, sometimes you've just got to grab it. You've got to take that opportunity and run with it. So I'm really happy for him. Can I jump in on this one? Because there was discussion and that rumors are rumors, that he actually had the opportunity to join Aston over the winter break as team principal. But, you know, again, whispers are whispers, but the main reason he said no is because Max indicated to him that he was staying at Red Bull.

14:59And, you know, we know about their bond. So we're talking about this promotion, you know, this amazing move for him over to McLaren. But if he was offered team principal at Aston, why turn that down? Was he? Yeah, but it's all, you know, was he? Was he? And ultimately only GP knows. And also, you know, I've said it over the last couple of weeks, you know, that Aston role is not necessarily, you know, all sunshine and roses. It's a bit of a poison chalice. Moving to McLaren is a much more sure thing. And I just I think it's wonderful. I think it's wonderful for him. I'm delighted he's getting the opportunity.

15:38And again, we've spoken about this in podcasts before. When you look at a Jonathan Wheatley moving up, an Alan Permain moving up, Steve Nielsen, all these guys who have gone up the ladder over the years in Formula One, started at the bottom, done their time and 20, 30 years into their career of rising up the ladder, being given the opportunities to be, you know, at the very top and leading teams. I'm happy for them all. It's a new generation of people who've earned their spurs and are deserving of their chances. It's one of the things I love about sport. It's not constrained by the degree from a certain university, the university of life and the university of sporting life, especially an international sport like Formula One.

16:24And, you know, we know from our lives, we traveled the world, we've operated in different countries, in different cultures, and we've learned to adapt and to take the best parts of that. So there's no question we're a lot more worldly than if we'd simply gone to university. And I'm sure you, like I, would have come out as top in class with that degree and set about our business lives. But it allows hardworking, can-do people that have got a vision and don't set sort of limitations to themselves to rise up through. So I love that. And it really starts to fuel that Formula One in the last few years is becoming a bit more like football.

17:03If things aren't working, then they bring in the next manager. You know, for years we had stability in the management hierarchy. But now it seems that it's being really sort of turned on its head. I love that. I love the shift as well towards people with an engineering background or a mechanical background, people who understand the cars or understand the engineering of the cars to be placed into that position of team principle. I look at people like Laurent Meckis and looking at people like James Vowles, you know, for example, these are people and the other names that I just mentioned, they've all done their time.

17:40They've learned. They're racers. They're racers and they've grafted. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And picking up on that, you know, I'm sure you, like I, get lots of people going, oh, I really want to work in Formula One. Yeah. And I'm like, well, if you want to do the long way, send your CV in and find yourselves at the back end of a thousand applicants or whatever. If you actually want to show that you've got what it takes, turn up at a club race somewhere, turn up at a kart race, then go to Brands Hatch on a rainy day or Alton Park or Donington. learn the backbone of what this sport has been built on and then when you come forward and say hey i've got a degree in this or that but actually you know what i've also been doing for the last 12 months or whatever look dirty hands i've been there in the trenches i've actually started to understand from uh from the the you know operational side at the track what this motor racing business is all about absolutely mate absolutely joely have you got your hands dirty have you been there oh well well i think it's a really nice point that you said and you know you've really got to put in the graft and i think we're all on the same page on this agreeing with that but i want to throw in a bit of a spanner because i here here i am here here she goes but i listened to a uh a podcast yesterday an old podcast there are other podcasts i know you're cheating on us But it was titled, What It's Like to Be Max Verstappen's Race Engineer.

19:10And it was a really interesting listen, because GP came out and said, look, I'm not denying for a second that they're exceptionally close. They've been a great pairing. But he came out with a few lines in front of Max. And then I watched other content that wasn't in front of Max that made me just think for a second. So one of the things he said was, my biggest fear is when we do have increased competition and we're not winning every race, because you see how he's treating me at the moment and we're winning every race. He then went on, when asked one word to use to summarise Max in a piece of Red Bull's content, he used insatiable, essentially saying he's impossible to satisfy.

19:51And I thought this was a really interesting kind of turn point discussion for us to talk about because, look, it's easy to be a great pairing when you're at the top. It's not easy to get to the top and I'm not saying that it is, but when you're in the top it's easy to all be friends but you know he was saying that it was much harder in 2018 2019 2020 2021 we really kind of solidified our bond you know it's a very intense year but again at the end of that they won 2022 really good 2023 so when it's not all sunshine and rainbows dc um you know always uh refers to relationships in racing as being like any relationship and um i'm gonna take that and i'm gonna run with it because i think you know gp and max like any driver and engineer yeah the good days are great just like in any relationship right the the early days where it's all new and it's all lovely they're brilliant and you want them to last forever but they don't because life takes over and life gets hard and um you know uh you end up you get married you have kids you move house you have sleepless nights where you look at each other yeah this is very this is very this is very personal and it's bloody hard it's bloody hard but the great thing in those hard times is you're doing it with someone that you wanted to do it with so i would just say it's like that was a bit deep it's it's like you're going to bring us bring our relationship online it's it's like it's like sorry mate um that it's like any relationship you know you ride the rough with the smooth and and getting through the hard moments just just solidifies and strengthens that bond um which is why them leaving were a bit telling no like using insatiable one word you want a driver that's insatiable you want a driver that that searches for utter perfection at every single step of the way because if you don't have somebody who's searching for perfection every minute of every day and you get somebody who's happy with with mediocre with average that's not somebody that you want to work with if you yourself are searching for perfection all the time yeah sometimes change is good as well so just picking up on what you're saying there well nothing lasts forever that that's uh something you become even more aware of as you get older in life that's aimed at you, Julie.

22:23So it's a case sometimes moving on, but in a way that you're appreciating what that journey has brought you together. So instead of it being a tragedy, it's a celebration. Yeah, I agree. There'll be another person in Max's engineering life. It may be his data engineer right now that's moving on up, that's showing that he's got the skills or she's got the skills to accept that responsibility. It may be someone from outside. Change is not a bad thing. Never fear change. No, I agree with you. And I think, look, it 100 % comes a point where GP's got to put his own career first. And I think that, you know, we're all exceptionally excited for him.

23:03And off the back end of last season, I know that, you know, off of the track personally, he was having a very difficult time. And we saw how emotional he was. At the end of the Abu Dhabi race, you know, he was in tears and visibly very emotional. So I think this is something for him to be excited about. It's something for the sport to be very excited about. And, you know, F1 really said, you might have five weeks off, but I promise you, I'll give you lots to talk about. Yeah. And of course, the other side to this as well is, you know, we've talked about Red Bull, talked about GP, talked about Max.

23:34What does this mean for McLaren? And what does this mean for McLaren's future? Because GP moving over is a big appointment. He will be taking on some of Andrea Stella's responsibilities. Do we think that is McLaren freeing Andrea Stella to be more potent in a singular role at McLaren? Or does it, as some areas of the press have alluded to over the past 24, 48 hours, mean that Andrea potentially might be looking at a route out or that other people might be trying to vie for Andrea's services and signature in the near future? thinking particularly to a team that Andrea has a history with that races in red who could that be well I can only think of Ferrari but um yeah look I think all of it he doesn't have history there the reality of being uh in Italy is uh Gazetta della Sport which is their the sort of backbone newspaper write about Ferrari every single day you know the uh they've got to come up with something They have to indeed.

24:40So it's a tough gig. That is a tough gig. But he's been there as an engineer, you know, having worked with Fernando Alonso in the past. He knows the setup there, obviously speaks the language. So yeah, in the fullness of time, Ferrari have got to be looking to strengthen in all areas. I don't think the lack of performance of the cars get anything to do with Fred Vasseur. again I mentioned to you before about Ron Dennis saying that you know he didn't design the car he was a team principal but the team principal right now isn't going to be looking for a replacement to himself but maybe maybe the the you know the controlling family are saying look we're Ferrari we should be winning a lot more than we have been over the last few years if they want to be winning more, they just need to butt out more.

25:25You know, John Elkin, the board, just, you know, if you let Fred do what Fred does without the politics, without the pressure, just let Fred be Fred. If you look back through Fred's career, what he achieved at the junior level all the way through, everything Fred touched turned to gold when he was able to run it the way that he saw fit. it's magic it's absolute magic and when Ferrari was last at their most successful it's when there was a delineation between the board and the race team when Jean Tot in the early 2000s was able to run that team and Luca di Montezemolo who was running Ferrari at that point essentially you know said okay Jean it's your team you run it the way you see fit I remember those early 2000s days I remember how Luca and DCU member.

26:14Sadly, I do. I remember standing in the shower one morning. Because they were unbeatable. I was singing the German national anthem in the shower. That's how successful Ferrari were with Michael Schumacher. I learned that national anthem standing there, second or third, way too much for my liking. There's an entire generation of people who think that the German national anthem finishes with the Italian national anthem, because they were played back to back every single weekend. I was listening to the Italian national anthem at the Monte Carlo tennis classic at the weekend, and a bunch of the drivers were represented there.

26:50Everyone's a small village. And it's a great national anthem. But I do feel sorry for Sinner because there wasn't a Grand Prix at the weekend where whoever won the Grand Prix could call out him and say, hey, well done, I'm winning Monaco for the first time. Because he's done it a couple of times now for Antonelli. Yeah, him and Antonelli have a good bond. Let us know what you think. by contacting us on our socials at uptospedshow. You can also comment, subscribe and leave a lovely review. We'll be right back to tell you about a very exciting interview that is happening and coming out on Thursday.

27:27Well, coming on Thursday is a very exciting sit down with Mr. Oli Behrman. Naomi and I are going to be leading for the four of us. You guys unfortunately can't make it. But if you've got any questions you want us to ask. Oh, good one. Yeah. How has he been able to approach the start of this season and be as good as he is when he's also been sitting with the threat of a looming race ban? Because he had accumulated so many penalty points in his rookie season in Formula One that one more penalty and he has to miss a race. um he's very very close and yet he hasn't shied out or shied away from really going for it um in this early part of the season and you might have expected that that threat to make him just kind of you know if you get you get on your driving license you get 3.6 points or you know and then every time you're like i've got to be really careful here i can't i'm not even going to go one mile an hour over the speed limit because i can't afford anymore because because i'm going to lose my license.

28:31Same for him, but he's driving beautifully and he's taking his chances and taking his risks, despite the fact that he is that close to having to sit out a weekend. Yeah, I think that's the secret of his performance is that he's driving free. You know, you can see in his body language that he's in a happy place. He's gained confidence very quickly since he made his debut standing in for Carlos Sainz in Saudi Arabia last year. But the question I would want to ask is, given the incident that he had in Japan at the last Grand Prix and the talk of some review going on between FIA, Formula One and the teams and some amendments potentially coming to the regulations, what would he want to see?

29:16What are those regulation changes that will enable us to see the drivers basically pushing 100 % through the apexes of corners, which with this harvesting nature of current Formula One, that isn't necessarily the quickest way. Yeah. And sort of expanding from that as well, for someone like Ollie, who's very young, right, and your entire career is spent with the dream of Formula One and what Formula One represents, to get there, have one year of going all out, and then in the second year, have Formula One be something very, very different. How kind of heart-wrenching is that for him, having had this idea of what Formula One was, only to kind of have it wrenched away after a season.

30:01That would be fascinating. I'd love to know that. Well, I would say, you know, he's probably the most over-performing driver this season. He's shocks us in the best way possible, obviously. Take away Japan, which has its, you know, my own thoughts, our own thoughts on that. He's currently seventh, you know, in the Drivers' Championship. I think he's performing brilliantly. Yeah. And, you know, for me, watching him as a fan, I'm really rooting for him. He just beams positivity and, you know, happiness. He feels very unaffected. And that's how I feel about Kimmy, you guys know. I'm a big Kimmy fan.

30:37But he feels, you know, very unaffected, very innocent, you know, kind. I know these are words I'm just throwing out there, but he's also a Swifty like you, DC. I think what you see is what you get from that fine choice of music man that he is. Aren't we all Swifties? Well, if you're not, you get a whole load of mean comments. You think YouTube can be mean? Wait until you say you're not a Swiftie. My daughter put me on an intensive Taylor Swift learning programme in which I started off as a Swiftie in training. Then she bestowed upon me the title of honorary Swiftie. and then within the last 12 months I have graduated to full Swifty.

31:20Is there anything you can't do? It's not so much being able to do something, it's more having an appreciation for Taylor. And what's great now is Soph will play me some Taylor Swift songs and I'll just run to the piano and figure it out so I can play her the song that she likes and then she sings along to it. So we have daddy-daughter sing along on the piano with Taylor Swift songs. Luckily, Taylor songs are all quite easy to work out because they're all basically just four chords repeated over and over and over. Oh, she'll like that one. They're great, but simple. Well, I'll be sure to pass on those questions.

31:52I'm very, very excited to speak to him. I know we will miss you guys. Now, make sure you have double checked that you're subscribed because you do not want to miss Thursday's episode. And we'll catch you then for our chat with Mr. Oli Behrman.

32:09This has been a Global Player original production