Kimi Antonelli: The next Senna?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. The writing was on the wall long before Ayrton actually got to Formula One that he was something special. Some very unique parallels between Antonelli and Senna. Ayrton was my hero growing up. He was revered. He was mystical. Kimi's got huge potential. It's an interesting comparison with Senna. A level of sadness that I was not around to see Ayrton do what he did best. and Kimi. We've heard a lot of Mercedes sort of saying they don't want to draw these sorts of parallels. They don't want us to start talking about him being a championship contender. He's in the fastest car in Formula One.

0:39He's leading the bloody world championship. Of course we're going to talk about his championship chances. He's under right. He's on track. He's doing a brilliant job. Let's see whether he's got the street fight.

0:54Up to speed.

1:00It's Will. It's Naomi. It's David. Welcome to Up to Speed. Well, we've got something a little different for everybody today. We've been enforced this five-week break, and so we're getting a little creative with what we can keep you all at home entertained with. Of course, Kimi Antonelli has had a great start to the season, and he has become the youngest driver in Formula 1 history to lead the championship. So production, who've had extra time on their hands, have drawn together some very unique parallels between Antonelli and Senna. So I've got a little list here of stats and facts. But this will be good.

1:39They were both born. They both had parents. No, it actually goes, it runs a lot deeper than that, right? So give it a chance. They both had three podiums in their rookie season. Okay. Okay. They both had a first win and pole in the second race of their second season. They both had the number 12 on their cars for their maiden win and the second pole in the race after their first win. And not to ignore the fact that he literally looks like a clone. Does he though? Does he though? Personally, I don't think he looks like a clone. I think that Colopinto looks slightly more like Senna. I wouldn't go as far as to say a clone.

2:18100%. Those points are pretty surprising, aren't they? So it's basically just an excuse for us to talk about Senna. I'm fine with that. Well, I mean, I don't know if this is to say that anyone's better or worse than anyone, but it's probably pretty shocking to see some of the parallels. Wouldn't you seem kind of creepy almost? Yeah, I think that there's no question. They've both made their mark very early. If we go back to Senna's first year with Tolman, I'm sitting here in Monte Carlo. Senna almost won the Grand Prix, a wet race that was shortened just as he overtook Alain Prost at the start-finish line.

2:51And this is always the thing, isn't it? You know, the exceptionals do something special when weather conditions or some other act of the racing guards gets in the way. So the writing was on the wall long before Ayrton actually got to Formula One, that he was something special. So I guess the question is why it took so long for him to actually find his winning ways again in the wet in Estorul, Portugal, which used to be where we went for the Grand Prix there. And I think he almost lapped everybody. He was so good. So we're yet to see that from Kimi, but he's had a lot of support. And I'm loving all the early shots of him with Toto Wolff when he looks about 12.

3:32Well, in fairness, that was last year. He still looks much younger than he's 19 years. He does. He does. And obviously this, you know, his ascent to Formula One has been managed and coaxed and sort of polished all the way up to getting to Formula 1. Was he the complete article when he made it to Formula 1 last year? No. And he was still learning and that much was very, very evident race to race in his rookie season. But to draw a parallel with Senna, Senna joins with Tolman, who were not a top team, moved to Lotus, who were not the Lotus of the 1960s or the 1970s. They were a mid-grid team at that point and he pulled out victories for them.

4:17Kimi's come in straight with the big boys, with Mercedes. And so that weight of expectation on him has been pretty huge from the off. But DC, as you say, Ayrton arrived with such a reputation. And if you're going to compare Ayrton to somebody of the modern era, it's probably someone like Max because Ayrton did, what was it, two years in Formula Ford, one year in Formula 3, and arrived with this reputation of I'm the real deal and also I'm pretty Larry. You know, his reputation for having shunts with Martin Brundle in Formula 3 were famous. And he was known as being this uncompromising, slightly controversial, very, very quick kind of character.

4:59So Max, for me, feels like a little bit more of that. And also one of those people that you kind of, you looked at and you thought, there's a world champion when he's arriving. I think Kimi's got huge potential. it's an interesting comparison with Senna I love to see youth coming through and I think that's one of the wonderful things about sport if you're good enough you're old enough and as Fernando Longs was going if you're good enough you're still young enough yeah still young enough congratulations to him in becoming a father actually I wonder if that will take a tenth of his lap time so watch the comparison with him he can't afford to lose another tenth in that car yeah otherwise they'll be struggling to make the grid but um yeah look Ayrton I am lucky enough and old enough to have had the opportunity to have met Ayrton and to have worked with Ayrton and it's one of the great joys of my career that I have overlays of me driving the Williams that he was driving and on the same day out on track and get the comparison of just how he went about his business and that is a beautiful and wonderful insight um the person had a presence that i may have shared this with you before uh apologies that i have where i remember being an event in portugal actually pre-season and everyone's there chanting away in this room waiting for the press conference to start and airsten came in from a side door that no one expected but slowly and surely the room fell quiet.

6:31Not because anyone sort of prayed silence. It was just he was in the room. And, you know, he was revered. He was mystical. He had, as Alan Prost, his main competitor, I guess, through many of his championship years, declared that Ayrton was, in his religion, in his belief, believed that he couldn't be hurt in a race car. And that scared. Alain Prost in a way that, you know, he faced his own mortality. So I think it's fair to say Ayrton used everything at his disposal to take his brilliance behind the wheel and just basically psych everyone out. He really had presence. What was that like the first time you saw his overlay on your overlay?

7:18Were there just things he was doing that you thought, Jesus, how on earth do I get even close to that? Yeah the thing that stood out around Estoril it had basically you you came on to the start finish straight through a very high speed right-hander the first corner was down one gear and then flat out again the next corner was virtually flat out and then eventually you slowed down into a hairpin so it was mighty three right-handers at very high speed and what was really impressive was just the commitment that Ayrton had on the entry phase to those high-speed corners. What was, I would say, more traditional was to feel your way into the corner.

7:58And actually, when you feel your way into the corner, you tended to have a slightly better exit onto the straight because you weren't so on edge on the entry phase. But just looking at how much belief and how much commitment, and bear in mind, the cars of that era had no power steering. So very often you committed to a high-speed corner and what you managed to turn, that was as much steering as you were getting you could turn steering off of course but putting it back on you had to lift so he he just had a way of rotating the car on that entry phase getting it sitting on the rear tire and i think that's something that if i look at the greats that i've raced against and the greats that i've watched they have an ability to lean on the rear tire and i guess well you see a lot of this with the drivers on the ovals in america yeah you've got to be comfortable with it feeling like it's all about to get loose.

8:54And that's, in my mind, what Ayrton was fantastic at. Do you know what I have to say? I could listen to you talk about this all day long. I watched the Senate documentary countless amount of times. And I have to say the feeling that I was left with at the end of it, I mean, obviously cried multiple times. But the one thing I had as a driver was I felt a level of sadness that I was not around to see Ayrton do what he did best. I think I've mentioned this before on air with Sky that I was born 17 days after Ayrton came to his tragic death in Imola. And so it wasn't an area that I was around for.

9:32Obviously, you see some archive footage and you can kind of get an essence of who this legend was. And we hear a lot about the legacy that he's left behind. But it's just incredible to me to hear from you, DC, you know, like real life stories of having been around this person, what he was like, the incredible things he was doing. I feel somewhat relieved that we have a driver like Max in F1 today because I'm kind of having that experience today with another generational talent. But, you know, talking about parallels, DC, I guess I'm going to come to you with this. We talked about some creepy parallels that Kimi has had with Senna, but you've also kind of had a bit of a similar parallel with Kimi, although slightly different circumstances.

10:11But you obviously succeeded at and in the Williams after his death. So to fill the boots of someone who was already such a big character within the sport. And, you know, that was in your rookie season. And, you know, Kimi has had to fill the boots of Lewis at Mercedes. And as I said, the circumstances are very different, but that is a parallel that you two will share. Yeah. Well, first of all, impossible to fill Ayrton's boots. And I was under no illusions as the test driver for Williams under the era that Nigel Mansell was there and then Test Driver when Alan Prost was there and then obviously for a short period with Ayrton.

10:49Actually, what I subsequently found out is his manager was someone that I'd actually worked with my early career at IMG, Julian Jacobi. And the very first time I tested for Williams with Ayrton, he was scheduled to do a couple of days and I was just there waiting around, you know, work shadowing, listening on the headset, and then on the third day I come in for my chance to jump in the car because at that moment we just had one car we were sharing and he was there already so I assumed he wanted to test some more but in actual fact what he did was put the headset on and listen to what I had to say about the car and talk about pressure when you've got you know these incredible race engineers and Patrick Head and Frank Williams the owner of the team but you've got Ayrton Serner standing in his civvies listening to your feedback and off the back of that day i know from julian jacobie that he had a conversation privately with frank and approving that i could stay as the test driver ultimately and saying that he felt that i i deserved a chance in formula one at some point in the future so i have no doubt that beyond his life um the fact that frank decided to not replace him but let's say get that year that tragic year finished out by uh promoting me from test driver was largely to do with Ayrton as well then you know I it's very difficult even today for me to get my head around how did I go from watching him crash in Imola I was racing at Silverstone that weekend like many people did and then three weeks later be on the grid in Barcelona on his side of the garage with his number on the car and i think it's just the benefit of youth you just don't know what you don't know i don't think i'd be able to do it today clearly i wouldn't physically be able to do it today but i just don't think i would emotionally want to be in that position you came under a another similar parallel to kimmy in that first season in 94 in that for a couple of races frank brought nigel mansell back in to take your seat um i think that you know the last couple of races Japan and Australia.

13:06And last year, Kimi was under pressure with the thought that maybe Max Verstappen might become a free agent and might be signed to Mercedes. How much did that, you know, in the back of your head, knowing that Frank was looking at Nigel, you know, the 1992 world champion, potentially, you know, well, as he did to come in and replace you and Kimi then having to face up to, oh my God, my seat might be under threat from this four-time world champion in Max. Well, I remember sharing the car with Nigel and I remember him actually, I went to the Japanese Grand Prix and Nigel asking that I wasn't in the garage because he felt that was a distraction.

13:40And the Williams mechanics in the fun way that any mechanic likes to do it, a photograph of me with a red circle and an arrow, you know, a straight line through, a sort of no entry put outside the garage as a way of going. it was slightly to take the mickey out of nigel because of course um frank was like no he's a you know race driver stroke test driver we need him to be listening to what the car's doing i remember that japanese grand prix was the one that rained torrentially and there was cars spinning off on the start finish street and back in those days we raced in all conditions i'm not trying to belittle modern formula one and there's very good reasons why cars don't drive in the sort of conditions we used to but i was i remember being in the garage watching cars flying off the circuit left right and center and going i'm so happy it's nigel mansell in the car and not me airton was my hero growing up my daughter bought me this for christmas fantastic it's a funko pop um of airton what is it about anything that's still today you know more than 30 years after his passing that still resonates so much because you get young kids today coming through the ranks and they're asked who's who's your hero and even kids today will say aunt and senna and they were never alive to see him race but there's something about his aura that just it still resonates he was the steve mcqueen of the movies of that era he had presence he was cool none of it seemed overplayed none of it felt manufactured.

15:13None of it seemed like there was a team of people telling him how to look and how to behave. The sincerity of what Ayrton represented in the car, out of the car. Let's remind our audience that when he was in a haggling situation with Ron Dennis, the team principal at McLaren, I like this story, on one particular year, it was ahead of the first race was in Imola and he he never tested the car he said I'm not coming unless you pay me a million a race or whatever negotiation he was doing and Ron Dennis was like well there's no other choices he's going to sign for the salary I'm offering him and it was literally on the Wednesday before the first Grand Prix of the year it was agreed he got on an aircraft arrived on the Thursday or the Friday morning, got straight in the race car and went out and went quickest.

16:07There was commitment. There was belief. There was ultimately, he played his poker hand and he won it because it was Ayrton Senna. I would say to anybody who hasn't, you know, seen or understood about Ayrton Senna yet, just to go online, just to go onto YouTube and find onboard videos of Ayrton. Because you talk about commitment, the intensity of being in that cockpit with the H-Pattern gearbox. I'm thinking like laps around Jerez. The Monaco one's always very, very famous, but I actually like his laps around Jerez. I think they're wonderful to watch for Suzuka. And it's just that. And it's what we've been talking about this season, the thing that's lacking from Formula One, that absolute commitment on a knife's edge.

16:55And just, it's mesmerizing. It's utterly, utterly spellbinding and magical. I have to say, I was lucky enough to interview Ayrton's F3 and F2 team boss. And it was just refreshing to hear what he had to say about who he was as a person. Because as you say, you know, for the later generations, we hear a lot of stories about what he was like. And you hear, you know, it's a legend, like extremely successful, really talented. But how do we get to know this character better? And it was just, you know, nice to be able to hear his words on how dedicated he was to the sport in the way that he was such a deep thinker and was always with the team very late hours and very active in terms of getting that car and being in the right places.

17:40Because, you know, we see a lot with different drivers, different ways of approaching what they do in the car and around the team. And Edson just seems to be another one of those drivers, a bit like Prost, I guess, who was, you know, very head down in sort of the numbers and getting the car in the right place. I mean, DC, maybe you can chime in a little bit more on that. But yeah, just give us more of a sense of who he really was. He was what you saw. I don't believe anyone was being the puppeteer, which with the greatest respect to a number of the younger drivers today who have basically gone from living at home, or maybe some of them still live at home, to suddenly being in the public eye, wealthy individuals.

18:23So I think the fact that that era of driver arrived in Formula One a little bit later as well probably meant they had a bit more life experience. When I was a print journalist, I got to write an article for F1 Racing magazine when Bruno Senna made his debut. And Bruno was someone who I got to know really well when he was racing in what is now Formula 2. And Bruno's Ayrton's nephew. So I went out to Sao Paulo to go and interview Bruno. And Bruno said, oh, we're not going to do it in Sao Paulo. We're just going to go on a bit of a drive. So we got in the car and we drove for hours. and we went to Tatui, which is a town on the outskirts of Sao Paulo, which is where Ayrton had his farm.

19:08And we went to Ayrton's farm and it was where Ayrton lived. It was where he hung out. It was where he got away from the hustle and the bustle of life in Formula One. Huge lake that he used to take his jet skis out on. Massive fields where he would fly his model airplanes. He built a go-kart track in the middle of the farm where he taught Bruno to cart. when Bruno was a little kid. And it was Ayrton's happy place. The swimming pools still had the same cooks there who cooked Ayrton's favourite meal for us while we were there. And it was just the most magical day for me going around what was Graceland for me, you know.

19:48And then we went out to this barn and upstairs we found all the old go-karts that were under two inches of dust, hadn't been touched since 1994, since Ayrton died. bags that hadn't been opened since 1994 with sort of you know these leather bags with like japan airways labels on them and unzipped one of them and just full of go-kart engines you know stuff like that what it was it was the it was just the most like the most magical day and i felt like i got this this little insight into who airton was not as a racing driver but as uncle airton and this this person that bruno just looked up to so much and loved and admired and just the family guy and i think that's what the documentary did so well was was show that personal side of airton and another aside from that like i i got a phone call from my sister who went to watch the airton center documentary when it was in the theater and she got out of it and in floods of tears she called me and she said i finally understand why you do what you do and that was the power of that movie and that was the power of of airton you know it made so many of us fall in love with this with this sport and made me want to do what what i do well i got the call up with sky to to do a track day at silverstone with pierre gasly actually and um they asked me if i'd be available and there was some tricky stuff around scheduling and then when they told me that uh on the day we would be filming me driving the the tolman the tg183b i think it was called dc you could probably remind I mean, exactly.

21:22I mean, with a marvel. I'll go with that. Honestly, as you say, well, it's just like his character transcends the sport. You know, his legend transcends the sport. And there was nothing in the world I would have done over doing that that day. So I put a stop to everything else and made sure that I was there on that day. And it was just, you know, to be able to drive the car, his first car that he ever raced in F1 and had his first podium with, that still had his original steering wheel on it and everything was just so special. So I took that opportunity with two hands. But yeah, I think, as you say, so special to see how his legend continues to live on within the sport.

21:57And with everything they're doing with the Senna Foundation as well, I think they keep his legend alive and make sure that generations to come will know exactly who he was, not just for the incredible talent he was on track, but also the person that he was outside of the cockpit. Now, we're going to take a little break. Make sure you guys are following us on socials. It's at UpToSpeedShow. comment subscribe and leave a review if you can we're going to be back in a second and I'd like to come back to the parallels that we were drawing between Senna and Kimi so we'll see you after the break okay so at the top of the show we were kind of joking about the production having put together a list of parallels between Senna and and Kimi now we've heard a lot of Mercedes sort of saying and they want to take the pressure off of Kimi.

22:44They don't want to draw these sorts of parallels. They don't want us to start talking about him being a championship contender. Now, DCU very often say that F1 is not a finishing school. So I don't know why he's being held to that sort of notion of, you know, because he's young, maybe we shouldn't put this level of pressure on him. But Mercedes and, you know, Gwen LeGruy is obviously responsible for their junior program and has been able to select a number of really incredible talents, including George and Kimi into what they are today. But they obviously saw something in Kimi that they believed in so much that meant that they were going to fast forward him past F3 into F2 for just one season and straight into that F1 seat.

23:24So why now, in his second year of being in F1, are we being sort of given the notion that we shouldn't put that pressure on him, that he's not necessarily a championship contender just yet? I think that sometimes drivers have been accelerated into an opportunity maybe earlier than they probably were ready for and others, you could argue, why did it take so long? I think that Kimi has clearly shown great talent in the lower formulas, something that has stood out through the Mercedes programme where they go, you know, this tells us this is the foundations of something special. but truly can anyone really ever say i knew it i knew he was going to be as good as that you know you might feel it you might believe but you just don't know whether they're going to get the opportunity and whether they actually there's been a number of drivers who've arrived in formula one who once they get the chance in a winning car don't do as well as they do let's say in a mid-rude car i'm thinking someone like heinz harold frentzen came through at the same time as michael schumacher karl vanlinger they were all part of the mercedes young driver program before coming to formula one whenever he was in a sort of jordan or a sauber he would either win grand prixs or really impressed when he got the big chance in a winning williams i believe he won one grand prix that year and spent a season with the team and then got dropped so sometimes the pressure and the spotlight of having the opportunity.

24:54Certain drivers are not able to exploit that. And others are, let's say, brilliant mid-grid racers. And I can't explain. Will, you might have a bit more feeling for why that might be the case, but it must just come down to pressure and expectation. It's a funny one, isn't it? Heinz Harald was another one of those drivers that Ayrton was really impressed with and told Frank that, I think he'd been following the Sauber at testing, and was like, whoever's driving that is proper. and Frank always remembered that and actually signed him to replace Damon Hill halfway through Damon's championship winning year in 96.

25:28And so Heinz Harrell got the ride for 97. It was a bit of a disaster. Actually had, I think, a really good run with Jordan, almost won the title in the Jordan a couple of years later. But yes, I mean, I think with a driver like Lewis or like Max, there was a feeling with both of them, even from karting, that they were special. They were unique, that they had, you know, their destiny was a Formula One World Championship at least one of them and people were talking about them from a very early age as being this you know potential all-time great um the interesting thing with Kimi and the thing that I find really intriguing and Naomi you asked the question why now why year two are they asking us to take the pressure off him um you know they put some pressure on him themselves Mercedes did in year one I you know I think they could have taken the pressure off by by alleviating all of the concerns and all of the rumours around Max.

26:18They could have gone, no, Max isn't coming here. And even if he was, Kimmy's our man. We've moved him up here for a reason. We believe in him. He's safe and let him get on. They never did that, certainly not in public. Whether they did that behind closed doors or not, we don't know. It goes back to the conversation we were having about Max and kicking journalists out of press conferences. There's a very intriguing ecosystem where the teams rely on the media to tell the stories that they want. But then as soon as they want to protect their driver, they're like, oh, no, don't put the pressure on him.

26:45And you're like, Like, well, play the game, guys, because you can't have your cake and eat it too. It doesn't work that way. If you wanted there to be no pressure on Kimi, well, let him do a couple more years in Formula 2. We'll move him up into Formula 1 with Williams like you did with George. But you didn't. You put him in the big team. So you put him in the spotlight. You put the pressure on him. You can't then turn around to us and say, oh, don't put too much pressure. Of course there's pressure. He's in the fastest car in Formula 1. He's leading the bloody world championship. Of course we're going to talk about his championship chances.

27:12And we'd be mad if we weren't. And actually, what a credit to Mercedes and to Kimi Antonelli that we're talking about this 19-year-old kid as having a shot at the world title against someone with the experience of George in a car that is clearly going to be the dominant car of the year. There's even a question in it that we're even asking, can Kimi beat George? That's a positive. And it's a really great thing. I think it's a bit much to turn around and ask people to not debate Kimi being in the title hunt and take the pressure off him. Come on, guys, you put the pressure on by putting him in the seat.

27:42Yeah, well, interestingly enough, I think Mercedes are one of the teams that maybe do put their arm around their drivers a little more than some other teams might do and sort of protect where they are from a mental perspective. I don't know about you two, but, you know, you've had the opportunity to see many greats come through the sport. Obviously, we've mentioned Ayrton. You obviously would have seen Fernando, you know, another great driver that we still have on the grid today. Lewis, obviously winning seven world titles. And Max now coming into F1 and winning four titles and doing an incredible job.

28:14So there's been some spectacular, really brilliant drivers come through. Seb. Seb was another one. Seb, of course, of course, of course. Now we're talking about Kimi. I personally think that I do think I've seen something special in him. I don't know if I would go so far yet as to say that he's going to be one of the greats. We don't know that yet. but he's had a couple of pretty spectacular comeback drives. And yes, he keeps giving himself a hard time, particularly this year with his bad starts. And then, you know, he's coming through with more pace. But I do think that we're seeing somewhat of a diamond in the rough in that when the opportunity is there, and actually, ironically, when he is under pressure, I do think that he shines.

28:54Is that going to be enough? We're going to have to wait to see. But I think that there are some things in him there that we can already say, you know, at this early stage in his career are going to turn into brilliant things down the line. I don't know if you two would agree. I think he is very, very good. Is he exceptional? I don't think anyone knows right now because you need to stay in the trenches. Again, I'm quoting my buddy Mark Webber. You've got to stay in those trenches all year long. It's not just about showing in the beginning of a season when everyone's bright eyed and bushy tailed.

29:25It's like, do you have the energy, the resilience, the hunger, the fight, the nonce to be able to, you know, work within the team in a way that will grate against your teammate? You're not there to show friends. You're there to get what you can out of the team. That, for me, is when we'll really know. You know, I say this with some confidence because I didn't have it. So, you know, I know what not having it will get you. And I want to see whether he's got it. And we know that Max has it. We know that Lewis has it. There's some other drivers there that, you know, Fernando, of course, hasn't had the chance for a long time, but he had it, let's say.

30:05We've got to assume the passing of time. He isn't as, just as fast as he was, but he still is hungry. There's no question about it. So, you know, it's again about waiting for Christmas to open your presents. I don't think anyone needs to write the final chapter until he's shown us what he's capable of, but he's earned the right. He's on track. He's doing a brilliant job. Let's see whether he's got the street fight. And that's possibly where the concern lies for Mercedes in that last year we did see him have this dip that you're talking about. You know, can he go the distance? Does he have the mental endurance to withstand the 24, now possibly 22 race long season when he's going to be potentially head to head against his teammate, which I think Toto is probably also not ready for yet again?