Zak Brown: Max Verstappen to McLaren? Silverstone comeback for Lando Norris?

0:02This is a global production. You need to be brave in sport and in business.

0:07Will:You had a car that was unreliable and when it did ran, it was slow. He can take some time now to worry about the second because now it's our turn next. You went from that to world champions in two years. How? I think Lando and Oscar have both demonstrated they can beat him straight up. Max Verstappen. You want to sign him?

0:33up to speed

0:38it's will it's that and welcome to up to speed such a pro such a pro you know

0:47Will:zach brown uh mclaren ceo welcome to the show my man uh silverstone week i'm guessing it's a busy one it's a busy one it's about as busy as they get but actually all formula one races now the best way i describe them it's 24 super bowls and 24 davos so hundreds of thousands of fans and lots of c-level executives uh hanging around to do business in formula one which is a great thing yeah it's not a bad thing that's a great thing that's absolutely huge man um listen before we get this interview started i wanted to ask you you know you do so many of these interviews every single day, every single week, every single month, you have to prep.

1:28Will:What's the one question you prep for that you never get asked? Ooh, I think you guys are good. I don't think there's anything that I've never not been asked. And no one's shy. They like to ask the tough stuff. But I can't think of one I haven't been asked. You should see some of the things I have been asked. Oh, okay. What's the wildest thing you have been asked? Well, you should see this thing I'll show you offline on CNN. That was a prank that was played on me, which that was pretty wild. And someone with the right sense of humor. But no, I've kind of seen it all over the years. You have seen it all.

2:13Will:You've done it all. We know your story back to front of how you got to where you are now. But I think the thing that really fascinates me is you were a McLaren fan. Still am. Still are. And then you end up running the thing that you love the most in the world, but you have to run it effectively business minded. But there's obviously going to be a lot of emotion in there for you. How do you separate the business mind from the emotional heart? Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I think, you know, put my fan hat on, which I've been a massive fan of motor racing my entire life. McLaren's always been my favorite team.

2:56When we work on what we're going to do for our fans, actually, I think about what would I like as a fan? What were the memories that I had from the 1981 Long Beach Grand Prix, the first race I ever went to, the first driver I met? How did I want to get close to Ayrton Senna and Mika Hackett and my two favorite drivers? And now with today's world, how can we help get our fans closer to Lando and Oscar? So I think the emotion and the fandom in me is a benefit. And I lean into that quite a bit. And then, of course, there's a fine line between emotion and passion. And when it comes to the business side, I try and focus on the passion for winning and success and not the emotion that comes with either winning or losing.

3:44because emotion means you can do some stuff that you might regret. So a fine line between passion and emotion, also a fine line between bravery and stupidity.

3:57Will:Yes. It's a great Paul McCartney lyric. There is a fine line between recklessness and courage. Yeah. And so you need to find that fine line, right? Because up until stupidity, there's a lot of bravery. You just never want to kind of step over the line. but you need to be brave in sport and in business. That's really reflective of when you first took over and the team was kind of in the doldrums. One of the first things you did was bring the papaya color back. And I remember, you know, back with the old McLaren, they'd run a papaya testing livery and the fans loved it. But the car from that point on was always silver and it was always going to be silver.

4:37Will:So in the absence of results and being able to deliver the fans something on track, Like you gave them something that they'd been crying out for for years, which was the papaya color. Right. And it gave the team an identity. How how key in the rebuilding of the team was starting with an identity, starting with a sense of self? Yeah, I think it was very important, you know, when we changed the papaya, because that's what all our friends were fans were telling us they wanted. And I remember some kind of, you know, call them old school. We're like, you're only doing that because that's what the fans want.

5:09It was like, yeah, is that a trick question? It's exactly why we're doing it. And I think it was a signal not only just from a pure branding identity, but it was actually also a signal to how important our fans are to us and how we listen and how we engage. Because I think McLaren, unbelievable team. But we got to a point where, you know, in today's world, people want engagement, not just awareness. They want inclusivity, not necessarily exclusivity. And so I felt it was a identifier, not only just from a visual standpoint, but to our fans, our employees, our partners that, you know, this is going to be a positive, engaging, inclusive racing team that cares about our people, our people being our team, our fans, our sponsor partners.

6:01because I don't think, I think we hit a moment where we'd lost some direction and we didn't pay enough attention to the people that were important to us. And we paid the price kind of on and off the track. And now that we're all about our fans and our people and our partners, you know, we're a couple of championships in and have some of the best partners in the world and the most engaged fan base in the world. So we got to keep it going.

6:24Will:How did you redefine and almost kind of restart the culture within the team? Because that kind of that fan forward sensibility was clearly something that was very important. But the team itself had almost become seen as quite cold, quite clinical. The processes were not working on the track. you had to go into a team that had had all of these things established for for decades and rewire that how how do you do that yeah it um i mean the team has so many championships and wins under its belt and i knew a lot of people at mclaren have done a lot of a lot of winning but i think we'd lost direction you know we had constant changes in leadership that's not a great way for any business or sports team to go moving forward as if you're kind of got some troubles at the boardroom, which were all well documented, then everyone kind of loses a bit of direction.

7:25And so I ended up kind of rebuilding the leadership team. We're all mega aligned, very competitive. And then it was about letting everyone know how important their role is. You The driver carries the trophy. You send one person up from the team. People think about the great pit stop, the great aerodynamics. But in order to have a great pit stop and great aerodynamics, you need to have awesome fans, which means you have to have an awesome marketing and communications department. Then you have to have an awesome commercial department to get the partners involved because you've got great fans and a great brand.

8:05Then you have to have a great finance department because we live in a cost cap world. So we have to spend our money very efficiently and wisely to put performance on the car or on our people. Got to have a great HR department so everyone knows we're one team. All that has to be firing on all cylinders before you can turn over the drivers and the technology. And so, you know, I think we've got people to understand that when you see a great pit stop, yes, it's those 16, 20 people that were touching the car in the moment. But who paid for the guns? Who paid for the great drivers? You know, who put the team together?

8:42And so I think there's a real recognition that when we win on Sunday, whether you're in the communications or marketing department, the finance department, or on the pit crew, you all equally contributed to us winning on Sunday. And once people really feel that they're part of a team, it's amazing how 1 ,400 people can come together, the kind of thrust and the energy that can create.

9:04Will:that was never better exemplified than your run to back-to-back championships and the fascinating part for all of us watching from the outside is how you went from being plumb last to champions in two years and i remember that test um where the car was falling apart the the wheel sort of what you call the little flips yeah we couldn't even get lapsing because we had brake braking issues yeah and everything was collapsing in on itself you had a car that was unreliable and when it did ran it was slow bad combination bad combination rather it not be reliable so people can't figure out it's slow you went from that to world champions in two years how people people people people and you know leadership and uh i'm talking about my leadership not zach's but my leadership team led by andrea stella on the performance of the racing team you know i changed a few people, three of the top leaders, but let's say we've got a thousand people in the Formula One team.

10:07I changed three of the 997 that gave us the car that was arguably the slowest car at the start of the year, or the same 997 people that gave us a world championship car. The leadership that the whole team has provided has gotten everyone rowing the same direction, working together. we're kind of constantly trying to outperform each other and we've created this awesome performance culture it's a no blame culture so when we have a problem which we do we tackle the problem not the people so it's a safe environment we work together and you know when i joined people were blaming each other it was like look it's one car so you might think you're great on the front end of the car and it's the person's fault to the back end of the car but it's one racing car so Can we learn how to work together?

10:53And it's been an amazing quest, as we call it, a journey. It's coming into the office every day. A quest is flying to the moon. It's a much bigger challenge. And so that's the term we like to use.

11:06Will:You've already proven that within a regulation cycle, you can turn things on their head, which is so rare and so difficult to do. We're now at the beginning of another regulation cycle. You're not where you want to be. how tough will it be within this regulation cycle to to catch back up or do you have confidence having seen it done once already that you can do so i've got a lot of confidence but it's going to be very tough uh you know the other 10 teams in formula one these are the best racing teams in the world so the competition never sits still but we have gone from ninth to quickest so we can definitely go from third to to quickest it'll take some time mercedes done a great job uh we won the sprint in Miami.

11:48We almost won the race in Miami. We almost won the race in Japan. Great to see Lewis get his first win in, uh, Ferrari colors. Uh, he can take some time now to worry about the second cause now it's our turn next, but, uh, but great to see for, for, for Lewis. I'm a Lewis fan. I think that was cool for the sport. Um, but I think the whole thing's closing up, you know, max almost won at the weekend and, you know, max at the beginning of the year, they were the fourth, fifth quickest team so i think your top four teams are always going to be your top four teams we're going to do our best to not let there be a top five but uh well it'll be six other teams will be trying to knock on the door getting into the big four i think all four teams will win races this year two already have uh we've been close red bull's been close and i think it's going to be an exciting season you know it's all we're only a third of the way through formula one was

12:38Will:riding a crest of a wave over recent years never more popular globally and that's something which has been a rarity in its entire 75 year and more um history but this year didn't come without controversy right from the top right from the first race established fans saying this isn't the formula one that they recognized anymore the racing wasn't what they expected from it How do you, as someone who not only runs a team, but has a foothold and a foundation in marketing, critically, how did you see the start of this year? And how did you sort of work out in your own head? How do we move beyond this and how do we fix this?

13:20Yeah, good question. And definitely a lot of noise. And still noise, but that noise is getting quieter, which A, knew that would happen, right? We're eight races in Formula One has a magnifying glass on it. So as we all know, anything that happens is like goes from volume one to 100, no matter what the whatever the topic is. That's one of the beautiful things about Formula One, right? Everything's just amplified. I think reality is the racing has been great. You know, even those teams have been dominant. You still need to beat the other driver with their equipment. So, you know, some people said artificial racing.

14:02Same thing happened when DRS came out. You know, that was a way to spice up the racing. I think you still, it's kind of a driver and machine against other driver and machine. And with whatever you have, you still have to beat them. So I think the racing's been great. Now, in saying that, I'm sympathetic to the drivers because you do have deployment issues and you have to manage your deployment. So it's a new challenge. I think drivers, understandably, having once been one, just want to go flat out the whole time. I do think this is young technology and the sport's already taking steps to improve it.

14:36We've made small steps this year. We'll make a bigger step in 27. So am I worried about it? No. Is it a real thing, especially from a driver's point of view? Yes. Has it translated to actually very exciting racing? Hell yes. Yes. So it's getting quieter. We'll work through it. It'll be a non-issue in short order. So it's nothing that concerns me.

15:00Will:Is it slightly strange that in the era of ADUO, when teams or engine manufacturers can have tokens to upgrade their engine if it's not as performant as another engine, that engine manufacturers are essentially having to go out and argue that their engine is not as good as somebody could. Because normally it was win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Our engine's the best. And now everyone's out there going, our engine's terrible. Yeah, exactly. It's interesting. And, you know, I think that the sport's in a good place from a level of competitiveness. We do like our acronyms. Everyone's like, what does that mean?

15:33Everyone's like, I have no idea actually what it means. I know what it means, but I couldn't tell you what it stands for. But yeah, it's interesting. This kind of, you know, balanced performance happens in other forms of racing. That's nothing that will happen in Formula One. But to give, you know, engines a chance to, you know, no one wants to be kind of locked into not being competitive. So I think it's the right thing for the sport to make sure everyone stays close to each other. But a lot of gaming of the system. Yeah, right.

16:01Will:Talking about gaming the system or sort of bringing parity, you had a scenario where you've got two number one drivers. And you've always said you wanted two number one drivers. You want the guys that are the best and are pushing each other. How do you maintain cordiality, parity between those two drivers in a sport where – And this is the strange thing with Formula 1 because it's not the case in other types of motorsport. It's one team for two drivers. It's one pit crew for two drivers. It's one pit wall making the determination for two drivers. It's very different to IndyCar, right? Which you have a team in as well where each of your three cars in IndyCar or four for the Indy 500, they have their own dedicated pit crew.

16:42Will:They have their own dedicated strategist. every single part of their operation is focused solely on them and they know they're working what is the best for them individually correct how do you then balance that for two when you can never you'll never be a tie yeah you can't have a tie yeah it's um it's been a lot of fun you know we've got it it has um because we're racers you know we we we want to race and i think The secret to it is transparency with your drivers, trust with your drivers, treating them fairly and equally. We're going to make mistakes. We've made mistakes for both. Anytime they've got grumpy, what's important is they've never been grumpy at each other.

17:26They've been grumpy at Andrea and I, but kind of equally. So we kind of go, oh, they've both been kind of grumpy a handful of times. That feels pretty fair. and it is a challenge because you know they're called teammates and they work together to get themselves in the position to have the best car but then enemy number one is my teammate um and i'm so proud of how we went racing last year everyone was saying at the start of the year favor lando then the middle of the year was favor oscar and then at the end of the year it was like no we're gonna we know the consequences of letting them race fairly and equally as neither might win the championship because they take points off each other, which is exactly what happened in 2007.

18:11Lewis and Fernando tied. But I'd rather have that outcome by staying true to our racing values and how we go racing than favoring one because then the other one's going to leave. So if you're going to have two number one drivers, you need to treat them as two number one drivers.

18:28Will:Could you ever envisage a future where separate sides of the garage have separate teams? So separate strategists, separate pit crews, and then you are a team, but the driver can then be assured in their own mind. They have total independence. Bingo. Yeah. Pit crew know because of just the way Formula One's set up and the size and scope. And what's cool is both teams come together to help each other. Each team does have its own engineer and its own strategy. But, of course, head of strategy is looking at both cars. We've got ways we go racing that the drivers have signed up to, so they know kind of how a race will play out.

19:10And, you know, sometimes you'll go on split strategies like you had in Hungary last year where Lando did a one-stopper. And Drea and I actually didn't think I was going to work on Pitwall. It was kind of a free chance. And Lando won. He did a brilliant job. And, you know, Oscar did a two stop, which was the quicker strategy, but because of track dynamics and how great Orlando drove, he ended up winning. And those are tricky situations. But I think if you stay true to your racing values, then people know that you're racing with the right intentions. And I think that's all our drivers want are equal opportunities to win.

19:46Will:You have two number one drivers. One of them is the reigning world champion. But of this generation, there is only one number one driver in the paddock, and that's Max Verstappen. You want to sign him? Well, I've got two awesome racing drivers. So if I had a third car, I'd sign him in a heartbeat. But you don't. But I don't have a third car. So I couldn't be happier with Lando and Oscar. We won 14 races last year, two drivers that came down to the last race of the year with the chance to win the championship. They get along great. They set a great tone in the garage. so I'm not making any driver changes.

20:21You know, if you ever were, you know, I think I said at the weekend, if someone slips on a banana peel, which is not the plan, then yeah, I mean, you know, any racing series is about getting the best drivers in the world and giving them the best equipment. So Max is an awesome talent, but I think Lando and Oscar both demonstrated they can beat him straight up.

20:45Will:So if Max was available? you wouldn't sign him on the basis that you have oscar and yeah no no i don't have a seat available if a seat that was available then of course you have that conversation but uh lando and oscar have their names engraved on their race seat and uh they haven't emptied out their lockers so they're not going anywhere let that be an end to that rumor mill then uh we love that zach um uh I want to look at the wider McLaren story. You have just, well, not just, but recently said you're going into hypercar. Yes. And I know the triple crown is a huge one for you. The Formula One World Championship or Monaco, depending on which definition you take of it.

21:27Will:The Indy 500, the Le Mans 24 hours. How excited are you to be going back to Le Mans? Couldn't be more excited. I want us to be the most exciting racing team and engaged racing team in the world for our fans. I want us to be the most commercially exciting for our partners, create a lot of opportunities for our employees. And, you know, we're called McLaren Racing. Yeah. And those three forms of motorsport, IndyCar, Le Mans, of course, Formula One, we've got great history. And we've won all three before, but in three different decades. So we now want to win them again under the papaya era. So we're one down with Monaco, two to go, a couple second places at Indy, which is oh so close.

22:07and we'll be competitive at Le Mans. Very difficult racing series. But that would be the dream that would make us, we're already unique to do it again. I think it's something that stands us different than everyone else. And I think that's a cool thing. And as you know, once you get the second race done, that third race, it becomes bigger than even just the third race. So I hope to create an environment where fans around the world are cheering us on to win that final leg of the Triple Crown. But we've got to win the second one first.

22:37Will:I got to interview Lando on the Monday after the 500 because he came to Indianapolis, as you know. And I asked him if he would like to deliver you the Triple Crown. And it wasn't a no. Because, of course, he did the 500s virtually. Yep. He wiped that. He was good. Super fast until he got wrecked. But could have won it, should have won it. Yeah. He doesn't hate the idea at all. In fact, was very excited about the idea of running the Indy 500 for real. loves the idea of doing Le Mans. Could you envisage a day where Lando Norris competes in and completes the Triple Crown for you? I could see that day.