HTDE: Yes We Pecan, with Martha Stewart

0:00Netflix's Stranger Things has reached its end, and we're unpacking the biggest moments in the final season. We'll talk about what we thought of the finale, what happened to our heroes when they set out to battle the forces of evil one last time, and, of course, the terrible Whigs. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, it's Peter here with another episode of How to Do Everything, hosted by Wait Wait producers Mike Danforth and Ian Schillag. This week, just ahead of Thanksgiving, the guys ring up hospitality icon Martha Stewart to help a listener pronounce the word that is spelled P-E-C-A-N, so popular in your Thanksgiving meals.

0:41Now, I, Peter Sagal, pronounce it like almond. Almond. But, you know, whatever. Martha probably has more authority on this topic than me. Now, if you like what you hear, make sure to get out of this feed and go over and follow them on their own How to Do Everything feed. Now, enjoy the latest episode of How to Do Everything.

1:07What can we help you with, Alexa? So, okay, my mother is a born and raised Texan. I was taught from a very young age that the proper pronunciation of a certain nut is pecan and not pecan. And this is important because the state nut of Texas is the pecan. And I recently moved in with some new roommates in New York, two of which are from Texas. And I assumed they would also understand the importance of the pronunciation of pecan. And one of them does. However, the other does not. So your roommates, one says pecan and the other roommate, both from Texas, the other roommate says pecan. Yes. Have you ever been corrected?

2:01Have you ever said pecan and somebody corrected you? No, but I am quick to make my feelings known if someone says the other pronunciation. It does almost, I'm just going to say this, Alexa, you almost sound like you might be a little bit pedantic when it comes to pecans. I mean, the fact that you're throwing out, it is the state nut. I wasn't until I moved in with Texans. Yeah. Because my belief was that every Texan knew the correct pronunciation. And I could be forgiving about other people from other states where the state is not a pecan. But it's now come to my realization that some Texans are wrong.

2:48Yeah. Yeah. You do keep calling it the correct pronunciation. What is your question? I should roll it back. My question is, what is the correct pronunciation? And I will surrender if I am proven wrong. I think, yeah, it sounds like your question is right.

3:11This is How to Do Everything. I'm Mike. And I'm Ian. On today's show, how to light up the dark winter days. But first, to Alexa's pecan pecan question. Now, when I make pecan pie, I use Martha Stewart's recipe. It's the gold standard. Martha, are you there? Hi, Mike and Ian. You have Martha Stewart on the line. Hello, Martha. Hi. Good morning. Okay, Martha Stewart, how do you pronounce P-E-C-A-N? Pecan. Pecan. Pecan. Okay. Not very Southern, because I have a lot of Southern friends, and they all say pecan. Mm-hmm. And mine's pecan. You know, pecan is not pecan. I don't say pecan. If someone does say pecan, do you correct them?

3:57Or do you just accept them? Absolutely not. But my granddaughter does. Oh, how does she correct them? Pecan. Pecan. Yeah, okay. And she's 13. And you have to, you know, then you have to look it up with her. And, oh, God, it's so annoying. People say tomato, you know. Who knows? Do people really say tomato? Oh, yes. I have lots of friends who say tomato. One of my aunts used to say tomato, but she's not around anymore. Yeah, okay. She probably died early because she said tomato. Well, Martha, thank you so much for helping us out today. This has been great. You're welcome. Martha's new book is her 100th book.

4:44It's 100 Favorite Recipes, Lessons, and Stories from My Kitchen. You know, there may be an even higher authority than Martha Stewart to ask about this. Hello, Dr. Sullivan. Hey, how you doing? Pretty good. Where are we reaching you right now? I'm at La Couturee Ojibwe Reservation in northern Wisconsin, about one hour south of Lake Superior. Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan is an Ojibwe linguist at LCO Ojibwe University in Wisconsin. So, Dr. Sullivan, we understand this word has its roots in the Ojibwe language. Is that right? Yeah, I think the general sort of agreed-upon assumption is that it derives from an Algonquian language, which is the bigger family to which Ojibwe belongs.

5:38Okay. In that language, how do you pronounce this word? Right on. I thought you'd never ask, so we say Bagan. Bagan. Bagan. Yeah, so we spell it in Ojibwe, we spell it with a B. Okay. Bagan. Now, being that the Europeans call it a pecan, I'd say, would be the closest in the colloquial English that matches an indigenous pronunciation, Bagan, pecan. So the kind of most correct would be Bagan, but if you were forced to accept an anglicized version of the word, pecan would be better than pecan. Yes, very much so. Yeah, well, one thing, you know, as a linguist, sometimes linguists are kind of like language police.

6:33Yeah. I'm not really one of them, you know, like language is beautiful in all of its variation, right? So if there's multiple pronunciations, it's like the tomato-tomato kind of debate that people serve, whatever. So I don't even really engage in being the correct. But if somebody wanted to be historically correct or cared, right, that vagone would be the proper pronunciation. Pecan sounds really American to me. Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. So maybe Alexis should know that she could tell her roommates that Dr. Sullivan is laughing at you when you say pecan. Yeah, there you go. Yep. Yep. You sound really Anglo when you say pecan.

7:19Okay. Bagan is where we're going for it. Yeah. So as somebody who cares about this language, these languages, if you're, you know, if you are faced with a pie with these nuts, are you like, oh, thank you for the bagon pie? Or do you say pecan pie? When we speak English, you mean? Sure. Well, yeah, if you're, I guess if you're hanging with Anglos. Yeah, I would probably, if I was hanging with Anglos and it was in the English-speaking setting, pecan, pecan, pecan, I'd probably say pecan. I'd probably use the English pronunciation just to fit it. But I might launch into a sort of teachable moment, right?

8:07Yeah. Eating my pecan pie with other Anglos, yeah, definitely a teachable moment. Well, Dr. Sullivan, thank you so much for talking to us about this. Yeah, it sounds like a really, really cool, fun show, man. I think I might have to tune in. So keep up the good work.

8:26Michael McGeezy Sullivan's book is Plums or Nuts, Ojibwe Stories of Anishinaabe Humor.

8:36I want to do something here, which is I have tried over the past several years to stop saying you guys. The phrase, you guys. Right. Mike, I think you and I are both guilty of this. Yeah, I will write that in an email, a group email, and then I will take it out. Then I have to scramble to come up with something else. And sometimes I'll hear it come out of your mouth, which you can't take back. You've already hurt people. You're right. You can't unhear that. I apologize. To anyone I've said that to, I apologize. So both of us would like to stop saying it. So we're going to establish a little accountability.

9:10We're going to do a you guys fast. And you people out there, we'd love for you to join. If you also want to stop saying you guys, send us an email. Let us know you're taking part. Keep us apprised of your progress, your mistakes, the times you hurt people just as Mike has. Wait, so you people? That's the solution. You're right. That doesn't sound great either. You, our fellow humans out there, if you would like to join us in this You Guys Fast, let us know. This is a real story that I have a relative who's a pastor who was baptizing a kid, a baby, and he forgot the baby's name and he just said, child of God.

9:54And that was his solution in the moment in front of everybody. That doesn't work. That doesn't quite work in an email. Well, I think if any of us embarking on this fast, and let's say it's a 30-day fast, if you find yourself about to say you guys, just try you children of God and see where that gets you. Hey, y 'all. That works. Hina, that was what you did, right? We talked about this, and that was a solution that you came up with. Yeah. I went to a very PC high school, and we actually couldn't say guys. So I started saying y 'all. And then I went to college, and everyone thought I was from the South.

10:30And where are you from? The Chicago suburbs. There you go.

10:36Well, if you children of God have a question for us, just get it to us at howto at npr.org. No matter what your question is, no matter how big, no matter how small, we will do our best to find an expert to answer it. That email again, howto at npr.org.

11:03The town of Vigonella, Italy, sits in the shadow of the Alps, such that the town got no sunlight for three months out of the year for centuries. In 2006, the mayor, Pierfranco Madali, was overseeing the rebuilding of the town square, and he came up with an idea. Pierfranco is on the line with us now, along with his daughter, Fabiola, who's translating. Okay, so he was working with a friend of him who is an architect for the square, for the rebuilding of the square. And they were also working on a sun dial to be painted on the wall of the church. And while speaking about this, he told his friend, this sun dial will be useless for three months in winter because there will be no sun.

11:55And his friend told him, are you joking? No, I'm not joking. So they decided to try to find a solution to solve the problem of the shades for three months in winter. So they realized that the tops of the mountains around the town did get sunlight and that that might be their solution. So they decided to build this giant mirror 40 square meters at the top of the mountain opposite the village to reflect the sun directly on the village. it's one kilometer far from the village on the top of the mountain and it is able to light 750 square meters. Wow. A whole square and a bit more maybe some houses too.

12:57so during the winter months when there is no sun the mirror creates sunlight it's not like real sun because it it doesn't warm up it's simply yeah it's sun it's light it doesn't warm up but it lights so we can see the sun on the square which was something unbelievable because for the people who live in Viganella for the whole life it was strange yeah and if you wanted to could you stand out there and get a suntan we have no sun tan do you want to show them yeah he's a bit tan only a bit yeah can you remember can you remember what it felt like the first time the sun bounced out this mirror and lit up this place which had been dark describe the scene if you remember he told us that But even before the construction of the mirror, lots of people were skeptical about it.

14:17They didn't believe that it would be possible to build such an invention. So he carried on his shoulders a giant mirror and he went to the top of the mountain and he tried to show the people how it would be like to have the sun even in winter because lots of people didn't believe him. Wow. Yeah, they thought he was crazy. In any kind of way, that's true, because he's a bit crazy. I guess you'd have to be kind of crazy to think that putting a giant mirror on a mountain would work. You must be crazy to come up with such an invention, with such an idea. I agree with you.

15:08well that does it for this week's show what'd you learn Ian well I learned that you you can actually you could use a mirror to light up an entire town it seems like such a simple solution but an incredible solution it's such a huge scale like that's such a giant mirror I think that mirror also up on top of the mountain yeah it's useful for any of the animals that need to see how they look you know you maybe do a little preening do i have something in my teeth but could you imagine though if you're down there in the square and you're like you know what i'm tan i'm just gonna get a quick tan and then suddenly a shadow goes over it because a bear is like checking its its teeth you're like hey hey yeah really trying to get some sun yeah i guess like a bear could actually cause a solar eclipse.

15:55Mm-hmm. Just because it wanted to do with its eyebrows. How to Do Everything is produced by Hina Srivastava with technical direction from Lorna White. Our intern is Ed Brown. Ed, we're glad to hear the hiccup cure worked. Stay strong, Ed. Get us your questions at howto at npr.org. I'm Ian. And I'm Mike. Thanks. Thanks. We'll see you next time.